1 00:00:28,462 --> 00:00:30,531 Hilary Barry: It's been a harrowing week in the news, 2 00:00:30,564 --> 00:00:33,434 so now it's something much lighter and more fun. 3 00:00:33,467 --> 00:00:37,305 It's time for New Zealand's favorite pop culture reporter, 4 00:00:37,338 --> 00:00:38,406 David Farrier. 5 00:00:38,439 --> 00:00:42,042 (screaming and cheering) 6 00:00:43,377 --> 00:00:46,214 David: What do you make of New Zealanders so far? 7 00:00:46,247 --> 00:00:49,550 Me? Uh, I think that they're... They've been nice. 8 00:00:49,583 --> 00:00:51,085 Everyone has been cool so far. 9 00:00:53,287 --> 00:00:55,156 David: What's the main thing you're trying to achieve here? 10 00:00:55,189 --> 00:00:57,591 Because obviously you've created a bit of a-- 11 00:00:57,625 --> 00:00:59,193 Survival. 12 00:01:01,495 --> 00:01:02,496 He's dead. 13 00:01:08,136 --> 00:01:10,304 - Now we're gonna spin around. - Yeah. 14 00:01:11,605 --> 00:01:13,073 Whoa! Holy! 15 00:01:17,278 --> 00:01:19,480 It's so tiring. Whoa! 16 00:01:22,216 --> 00:01:24,418 David: And what's your nickname that you've got now? 17 00:01:24,685 --> 00:01:26,187 The Donkey Lady. 18 00:01:26,420 --> 00:01:27,255 (brays) 19 00:01:27,288 --> 00:01:29,190 Lady: Look out! Oh, look, we're going 20 00:01:29,223 --> 00:01:30,724 - to have a reporter kicked. - (laughs) 21 00:01:30,758 --> 00:01:32,160 It's quite a kick. 22 00:01:41,335 --> 00:01:42,803 David: I can't say I've ever interviewed anyone 23 00:01:42,836 --> 00:01:45,206 that looks exactly like you before. 24 00:01:45,906 --> 00:01:47,408 (laughs) Really? 25 00:02:02,790 --> 00:02:05,459 David: I've made a career out of looking at the weird 26 00:02:05,493 --> 00:02:07,528 - and bizarre side of life. - (laughter on computer) 27 00:02:08,929 --> 00:02:11,765 So when I discovered a strange video online, 28 00:02:11,799 --> 00:02:13,901 I knew I'd found my next story. 29 00:02:13,934 --> 00:02:16,370 (laughter continues) 30 00:02:16,404 --> 00:02:18,739 Man: (laughs on computer) It's good. It's good. 31 00:02:22,543 --> 00:02:25,346 David: An American company called Jane O'Brien Media 32 00:02:25,379 --> 00:02:26,680 was running a monthly event. 33 00:02:28,616 --> 00:02:31,652 Young athletes from anywhere on the planet could apply. 34 00:02:31,685 --> 00:02:34,322 If selected they got free flights to LA, 35 00:02:34,355 --> 00:02:38,559 Four nights in a really nice hotel and $1500 cash. 36 00:02:39,693 --> 00:02:43,297 It was called competitive endurance tickling. 37 00:02:44,765 --> 00:02:45,799 Man: You're with the CET, 38 00:02:45,833 --> 00:02:48,269 a competitive endurance tickling group we got here. 39 00:02:48,302 --> 00:02:50,538 And, uh, first of all I'd like to give a shout to you, 40 00:02:50,571 --> 00:02:52,873 Jane O'Brien Media, for making this happen. 41 00:02:53,241 --> 00:02:55,576 - Thanks, Jane. - We all appreciate it. 42 00:02:56,477 --> 00:03:02,850 (laughing) 43 00:03:02,883 --> 00:03:04,418 Fuck off! 44 00:03:04,452 --> 00:03:09,390 (laughing) 45 00:03:09,423 --> 00:03:14,462 Guys! Oh, my God! (laughs) 46 00:03:14,695 --> 00:03:16,897 (David laughs) 47 00:03:17,431 --> 00:03:19,433 David: Their Facebook page was popular, 48 00:03:19,467 --> 00:03:21,435 with thousands of likes. 49 00:03:21,669 --> 00:03:23,537 And with everyone in Adidas gear, 50 00:03:23,571 --> 00:03:26,574 it seemed to be some kind of tickling league. 51 00:03:26,874 --> 00:03:33,381 - (laughing) - (indistinct chatter) 52 00:03:33,414 --> 00:03:36,517 David: It was one of the strangest sports I'd seen. 53 00:03:36,717 --> 00:03:38,352 Man: No! 54 00:03:41,455 --> 00:03:43,991 David: So, of course, I told Jane O'Brien Media 55 00:03:44,024 --> 00:03:45,593 I'd like to do an interview. 56 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,531 Instead of getting a yes or no, I got this. 57 00:03:50,964 --> 00:03:52,566 Woman: "To be brutally frank, 58 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,868 association with a homosexual journalist 59 00:03:54,902 --> 00:03:56,870 is not something we will embrace. 60 00:03:56,904 --> 00:03:59,907 We desperately do not want a homosexual participant base 61 00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:01,709 applying for this project. 62 00:04:01,742 --> 00:04:04,912 My concern is that your journalistic style, fan base, 63 00:04:04,945 --> 00:04:07,581 and reputation in your own country. 64 00:04:07,615 --> 00:04:11,385 Regards, Debbie Kuhn, Jane O'Brien Media." 65 00:04:15,456 --> 00:04:17,358 David: It was a strange response, 66 00:04:17,391 --> 00:04:19,893 especially considering the sport did seem slightly... 67 00:04:19,927 --> 00:04:21,729 (panting and groaning) 68 00:04:21,762 --> 00:04:23,263 gay. 69 00:04:23,731 --> 00:04:24,998 (siren wails) 70 00:04:25,032 --> 00:04:29,403 And over the coming weeks, Debbie and Jane kept e-mailing. 71 00:04:29,437 --> 00:04:31,305 Woman: "The competitive reality tickling 72 00:04:31,339 --> 00:04:32,340 is a passionately 73 00:04:33,741 --> 00:04:35,743 and exclusively heterosexual athletic endurance activity. 74 00:04:35,776 --> 00:04:38,612 We have recently read a googled article about the knowledge 75 00:04:38,646 --> 00:04:40,648 of your living with a homosexual partner 76 00:04:40,681 --> 00:04:42,483 becoming quite a stir in New Zealand." 77 00:04:42,516 --> 00:04:44,918 "The remainder of the globe does not in all corners 78 00:04:44,952 --> 00:04:47,555 share some of the more liberal acceptance of your lifestyle." 79 00:04:47,588 --> 00:04:50,324 "To me anything concerning homosexuality 80 00:04:50,358 --> 00:04:52,059 is at best an objective disorder." 81 00:04:52,092 --> 00:04:55,496 "Shame on you!" "Little gay kiwis." "Faggot." 82 00:04:58,832 --> 00:05:01,569 David: It was hard to take the insults seriously, 83 00:05:01,602 --> 00:05:03,637 given what Jane was producing. 84 00:05:04,872 --> 00:05:08,576 If anything, it made me more curious than ever. 85 00:05:10,978 --> 00:05:12,746 Woman: (on voicemail) Your call has been forwarded 86 00:05:12,780 --> 00:05:16,450 to the voicemail for Jane O'Brien Media. 87 00:05:16,984 --> 00:05:18,352 (beep) 88 00:05:20,754 --> 00:05:22,623 David: With no one picking up the phone, 89 00:05:22,656 --> 00:05:25,025 I got my geeky friend Dylan to do some digging 90 00:05:25,058 --> 00:05:27,094 into this mysterious company 91 00:05:27,127 --> 00:05:28,962 and this overly aggressive woman. 92 00:05:28,996 --> 00:05:31,965 Dylan: So, I'm going to just scroll up. So here we go. 93 00:05:31,999 --> 00:05:33,634 So, it's janeobrienmedia.com. 94 00:05:33,667 --> 00:05:35,536 It's registered to Nederdietsen. 95 00:05:35,569 --> 00:05:37,805 David: He discovered that while Jane O'Brien Media 96 00:05:37,838 --> 00:05:40,441 seemed to be operated out of America, 97 00:05:40,474 --> 00:05:43,844 it was owned by a company in Germany called Nederdietsen, 98 00:05:43,877 --> 00:05:48,882 which owned nearly 300 domain names all related to tickling. 99 00:05:53,421 --> 00:05:55,789 This tickling wormhole was getting deeper, 100 00:05:55,823 --> 00:05:58,992 so Dylan and I blogged about what we'd found. 101 00:05:59,026 --> 00:06:00,628 (meows) 102 00:06:05,933 --> 00:06:10,804 (laughter on computer) 103 00:06:10,838 --> 00:06:14,007 (man laughs) 104 00:06:14,041 --> 00:06:15,709 Man: So, the pay's good. 105 00:06:15,743 --> 00:06:19,112 - Man: What? Okay, hold on. - (laughter) 106 00:06:19,146 --> 00:06:21,482 David: Our story got a lot of attention, 107 00:06:21,515 --> 00:06:23,584 being picked up on websites like Reddit 108 00:06:23,617 --> 00:06:25,553 and an American podcast. 109 00:06:25,586 --> 00:06:27,521 - Man 1: Back up. Back up. - Man 2: When I say 110 00:06:27,555 --> 00:06:29,757 competitive tickling, what do you think I'm talking about? 111 00:06:29,790 --> 00:06:32,159 Man 1: I mean, I think you're talking about, uh, 112 00:06:32,192 --> 00:06:34,194 some sort of organized sport-- 113 00:06:34,227 --> 00:06:35,563 - Man 2: Yeah. - ...of tickling. 114 00:06:35,596 --> 00:06:37,931 Man 2: Basically what happened was this kind of blew up 115 00:06:37,965 --> 00:06:41,735 on the Internet this week, because a dude in New Zealand, 116 00:06:41,769 --> 00:06:46,874 a reporter, like, happened across this Facebook page. 117 00:06:46,907 --> 00:06:48,776 Man 1: But is it just for fun? They just... 118 00:06:48,809 --> 00:06:50,143 I mean, obviously it's just for fun? 119 00:06:50,177 --> 00:06:51,512 Man 2: Is it just for fun? 120 00:06:51,545 --> 00:06:52,546 - It's tickling. - (laughs) 121 00:06:53,947 --> 00:06:55,182 Man 1: Sorry, I don't think that question's ever been asked 122 00:06:55,215 --> 00:06:56,316 about tickling before. It's like a Martian question 123 00:06:56,349 --> 00:06:59,419 about tickling. (nasally) "Is it for fun?" 124 00:06:59,953 --> 00:07:03,156 David: People were so interested by what we discovered, 125 00:07:03,190 --> 00:07:05,659 Dylan and I decided to make a documentary 126 00:07:05,693 --> 00:07:08,562 about this utterly bizarre subject. 127 00:07:18,138 --> 00:07:20,508 (birds chirping) 128 00:07:25,579 --> 00:07:26,614 Two weeks later, 129 00:07:27,848 --> 00:07:29,082 we heard from Jane O'Brien's New York attorney, 130 00:07:29,116 --> 00:07:30,818 Romeo Salta. 131 00:07:32,586 --> 00:07:34,622 He'd recently made headlines in a case 132 00:07:34,655 --> 00:07:36,223 involving a gay porn star 133 00:07:36,256 --> 00:07:37,457 who chopped a man up 134 00:07:38,692 --> 00:07:40,160 and mailed his body parts to some politicians. 135 00:07:41,428 --> 00:07:43,964 Things certainly weren't getting any less weird. 136 00:07:44,932 --> 00:07:49,469 His letter told us to stop what we were doing, or else. 137 00:07:53,641 --> 00:07:56,710 Soon we were receiving e-mails from Salta telling us 138 00:07:56,744 --> 00:08:00,013 that legal action had been filed in the US. 139 00:08:05,886 --> 00:08:08,722 I had no money to hire a New Zealand lawyer, 140 00:08:08,756 --> 00:08:11,892 let alone face the American justice system. 141 00:08:13,594 --> 00:08:16,997 Then, to top it all off, Jane O'Brien Media told us 142 00:08:17,030 --> 00:08:20,568 they were flying three people across the world from New York 143 00:08:20,601 --> 00:08:22,502 To New Zealand to see us. 144 00:08:22,936 --> 00:08:26,106 They're clearly serious about stopping this documentary. 145 00:08:28,909 --> 00:08:32,946 - (indistinct chatter) - (boarding announcements) 146 00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:42,155 Jane wouldn't tell us what flight they were arriving on, 147 00:08:42,189 --> 00:08:43,924 but she did tell us the day. 148 00:08:43,957 --> 00:08:47,795 So from 05:00 am, I waited at arrivals. 149 00:08:49,362 --> 00:08:51,231 Not sure what to expect, 150 00:08:51,264 --> 00:08:53,567 I figured I'd disarm the situation 151 00:08:53,601 --> 00:08:55,636 with a rainbow-colored sign. 152 00:09:06,647 --> 00:09:07,915 David: How's it going? 153 00:09:09,817 --> 00:09:11,952 I thought I'd make up a good welcoming sign. 154 00:09:12,219 --> 00:09:13,821 Good. How are you, sir? 155 00:09:14,955 --> 00:09:17,691 That's all right. I thought I'd arrive. How was the flight? 156 00:09:18,191 --> 00:09:20,728 Oh, good. Air New Zealand? 157 00:09:21,094 --> 00:09:23,731 Oh, good. Hey, guys. 158 00:09:24,698 --> 00:09:28,101 Kevin, nice to meet you, sir. David. Nice to meet you. 159 00:09:32,205 --> 00:09:34,908 You can. I gift this to you. 160 00:09:34,942 --> 00:09:37,044 As a sign, I thought it was pretty good. 161 00:09:38,912 --> 00:09:40,981 Well, look, let's line up a time to meet this week. 162 00:09:41,114 --> 00:09:44,217 Marko: 163 00:09:44,251 --> 00:09:45,352 David: Tomorrow? 164 00:09:45,385 --> 00:09:46,654 - Adam: - Marko: 165 00:09:46,687 --> 00:09:48,188 David: Okay, tomorrow works well. 166 00:09:48,221 --> 00:09:50,223 - Kevin: - Marko: 167 00:09:50,257 --> 00:09:53,126 David: Oh, that's okay. It's the New Zealand hospitality. 168 00:09:54,695 --> 00:09:56,129 - David: You can get me there. - Kevin: 169 00:09:57,230 --> 00:10:00,600 David: Yeah, we're just rolling from the beginning. Yeah, yeah. 170 00:10:01,735 --> 00:10:03,704 Okay. We've got a thing in New Zealand, 171 00:10:03,737 --> 00:10:06,006 we're okay to film in public spaces. 172 00:10:06,707 --> 00:10:08,909 So I'm just following the journey. 173 00:10:14,147 --> 00:10:16,316 Okay, all right. Well, we're-- 174 00:10:16,349 --> 00:10:18,886 Adam: 175 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:19,753 It's not-- 176 00:10:20,954 --> 00:10:22,155 David: Okay. Well, I mean, we're shooting a documentary, 177 00:10:22,189 --> 00:10:24,825 so we'll keep... It's a-- 178 00:10:25,358 --> 00:10:26,760 David: Mm. 179 00:10:29,963 --> 00:10:30,964 David: Okay. 180 00:10:32,199 --> 00:10:34,267 Okay. We're okay to film in public spaces in New Zealand, 181 00:10:34,301 --> 00:10:36,770 so we're doing that here. 182 00:10:37,404 --> 00:10:38,939 David: All right, we'll see you soon. 183 00:10:38,972 --> 00:10:40,674 - Marko: - David: Okay, sounds good. 184 00:10:41,441 --> 00:10:42,843 All right, see you soon. 185 00:10:44,244 --> 00:10:45,913 David: No worries. We'll talk soon. 186 00:10:54,221 --> 00:10:59,192 (phone line rings) 187 00:11:00,127 --> 00:11:00,828 Marko: 188 00:11:01,995 --> 00:11:04,064 David: Hey, Marko. It's Dave Farrier. How are you? 189 00:11:05,966 --> 00:11:08,668 Yeah, good. How are you settling into Auckland? 190 00:11:21,915 --> 00:11:23,851 Okay. No, that sounds good to me, I think. 191 00:11:23,884 --> 00:11:27,487 Just, Dylan and I both talked, and we just weren't confident, 192 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:28,889 or didn't think it was a good idea 193 00:11:30,123 --> 00:11:31,925 just to go straight to a room. Maybe it's a cultural thing. 194 00:11:33,460 --> 00:11:35,195 But a conference room 195 00:11:35,228 --> 00:11:36,663 - um, of your choosing, - Marko: Okay. 196 00:11:36,696 --> 00:11:40,233 whether it's at the Hilton or elsewhere, is absolutely fine. 197 00:11:43,303 --> 00:11:46,239 Marko: 198 00:11:58,385 --> 00:12:00,153 (indistinct conversation) 199 00:12:00,187 --> 00:12:01,721 Marko: And, um... 200 00:12:20,173 --> 00:12:21,274 David: 201 00:12:21,541 --> 00:12:23,911 Marko: 202 00:12:38,291 --> 00:12:41,161 Dylan: 203 00:12:43,430 --> 00:12:45,799 Marko: 204 00:12:55,442 --> 00:12:57,077 Dylan: 205 00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:58,278 Kevin: 206 00:12:58,311 --> 00:13:00,313 Dylan: 207 00:13:01,514 --> 00:13:02,349 Kevin: 208 00:13:03,050 --> 00:13:05,185 Dylan: 209 00:13:05,218 --> 00:13:10,057 Kevin: 210 00:13:12,192 --> 00:13:13,126 David: Sure. 211 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,096 Dylan: 212 00:13:16,129 --> 00:13:20,333 David: 213 00:13:30,110 --> 00:13:32,012 Kevin: 214 00:13:48,028 --> 00:13:52,232 (siren wails in distance) 215 00:13:54,401 --> 00:13:57,237 (scratching) 216 00:13:57,270 --> 00:13:59,372 David: Kevin didn't take to Dylan very well 217 00:13:59,406 --> 00:14:01,374 and wants to meet me alone. 218 00:14:02,409 --> 00:14:05,378 I quickly make this covert piece of technology. 219 00:14:05,913 --> 00:14:08,181 A camera in a coffee cup. 220 00:14:12,119 --> 00:14:14,187 Kevin: What's the end game here? What do you get at the end 221 00:14:14,221 --> 00:14:15,655 or even if you get everything you want? 222 00:14:15,688 --> 00:14:19,126 - David: Mm. Mm. - And what are we risking here? 223 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,931 You know, do we really want someone coming after you 224 00:14:23,964 --> 00:14:25,398 with all that money? 225 00:14:25,999 --> 00:14:27,534 I've known a lot of rich people in my life. 226 00:14:27,567 --> 00:14:28,468 I've worked for a lot of them. 227 00:14:28,501 --> 00:14:31,138 They don't work by the same set of rules. 228 00:14:31,171 --> 00:14:33,406 They don't dangle them out of buildings any more, 229 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,208 but they don't have to. 230 00:14:35,242 --> 00:14:38,078 And that's the thing. They start suing, 231 00:14:38,378 --> 00:14:41,381 and you're done halfway through or a quarter of the way through 232 00:14:41,414 --> 00:14:43,951 because it costs so much to defend yourself. 233 00:14:43,984 --> 00:14:45,652 David: So unless... Essentially, I mean, 234 00:14:45,685 --> 00:14:48,555 unless we stop the doco, we're gonna be fucked. 235 00:14:48,956 --> 00:14:50,257 Really. It seems that's what it comes down to. 236 00:14:50,290 --> 00:14:52,559 Kevin: I'm not gonna use those words directly, 237 00:14:52,592 --> 00:14:54,995 because that wouldn't be prudent. 238 00:14:55,028 --> 00:14:58,098 But... Let me rephrase. Unless you stopped... 239 00:14:58,131 --> 00:15:01,134 Unless we can figure out a way to ameliorate that situation, 240 00:15:01,168 --> 00:15:03,036 we all are. 241 00:15:09,076 --> 00:15:12,279 David: Facing lawsuits and a company with deep pockets, 242 00:15:12,312 --> 00:15:15,048 I wondered if we should just walk away. 243 00:15:18,085 --> 00:15:19,987 But Dylan was part of this now 244 00:15:20,020 --> 00:15:22,922 and didn't want to give in to a bunch of bullies. 245 00:15:23,656 --> 00:15:26,226 Kevin: (over telephone) Dylan wants to pursue this on his own? 246 00:15:26,526 --> 00:15:30,097 David: Uh, I gather from what he's saying, yeah. 247 00:15:30,330 --> 00:15:33,233 Kevin: Okay. Um, if Dylan wants to do that, 248 00:15:33,266 --> 00:15:35,502 Dylan does... Dylan will do that. 249 00:15:35,535 --> 00:15:39,306 If you don't want to do that, then just walk away from it. 250 00:15:39,739 --> 00:15:41,141 David: Yeah. 251 00:15:42,442 --> 00:15:44,711 Kevin: And I will... Dylan will be dealt with accordingly. 252 00:15:45,378 --> 00:15:47,314 - (indistinct chatter) - How was school? 253 00:15:47,347 --> 00:15:51,084 Marko: (on phone) The main thing, David, you know, that I wanted to tell you is that 254 00:15:51,118 --> 00:15:52,419 I think that you're brilliant. 255 00:15:52,452 --> 00:15:54,421 And that you have a great career. 256 00:15:54,454 --> 00:15:57,124 So I was really, really happy to find out 257 00:15:57,157 --> 00:16:00,260 that you wanted just to distance yourself from it. 258 00:16:00,293 --> 00:16:05,198 And I don't understand why Dylan would not want to. 259 00:16:06,566 --> 00:16:08,268 What I'm worried about too, I know Kevin says, 260 00:16:08,301 --> 00:16:09,769 "Well, if he wants to go ahead with it, 261 00:16:09,802 --> 00:16:11,071 let him go ahead with it." 262 00:16:12,205 --> 00:16:12,872 But he'll become a real target, and believe me, 263 00:16:12,905 --> 00:16:14,041 it will be really ugly for him. 264 00:16:14,074 --> 00:16:16,176 And I would... I would hate to see that too, 265 00:16:16,209 --> 00:16:17,310 because I know he has a family 266 00:16:18,745 --> 00:16:22,149 And, you know, he's probably, uh, a good bloke down deep. 267 00:16:22,615 --> 00:16:23,650 (line hangs up) 268 00:16:23,783 --> 00:16:29,256 (airplane flies overhead) 269 00:16:33,193 --> 00:16:35,595 David: I've never heard threats like this in my life, 270 00:16:35,828 --> 00:16:38,498 and all of this over some tickling! 271 00:16:39,299 --> 00:16:42,335 Kevin and Marko fly back to America. 272 00:16:43,136 --> 00:16:46,406 And a few days later, Dylan and I follow. 273 00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:50,110 Something about bullies with way too much money 274 00:16:50,143 --> 00:16:52,045 has convinced me I shouldn't drop it. 275 00:16:53,846 --> 00:16:56,416 Plus, we think there's a competitive tickling shoot happening this week. 276 00:16:58,485 --> 00:17:01,654 We've reached out to nearly a hundred boys in the videos, 277 00:17:01,854 --> 00:17:04,424 But they all seem too nervous to talk. 278 00:17:09,762 --> 00:17:13,032 Finally TJ agrees to meet us. 279 00:17:16,303 --> 00:17:19,272 We met Kevin Clarke downtown LA somewhere. 280 00:17:19,306 --> 00:17:22,442 I can't remember exactly where it was at, but it was a studio. 281 00:17:24,144 --> 00:17:25,678 He seemed pretty normal at the time. 282 00:17:26,746 --> 00:17:29,416 My first impression of him, you know, he was just, like, 283 00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:31,584 kind of... kind of a little weird. 284 00:17:33,886 --> 00:17:35,322 You know, I was young at the time, 285 00:17:35,355 --> 00:17:36,389 didn't think nothing of it, 286 00:17:37,724 --> 00:17:38,458 And I was like, "Cool." You know, $2000 or whatever, 287 00:17:38,491 --> 00:17:40,260 "Yeah. It's gonna be cool." 288 00:17:44,397 --> 00:17:46,133 It was actually a hard time for my family. 289 00:17:46,166 --> 00:17:49,702 A family member of mine was going through cancer, and money was tight at the household. 290 00:17:49,736 --> 00:17:53,406 So I was a little bit desperate at the time as well for money, working on the side, 291 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,408 and doing what I can. So when I heard this dollar sign, 292 00:17:55,442 --> 00:17:57,510 I was like, "Yeah," you know, "I'll definitely do that." 293 00:17:59,612 --> 00:18:01,181 And then I went inside 294 00:18:01,214 --> 00:18:03,550 and noticed that it was all guys in there. 295 00:18:05,152 --> 00:18:08,321 And that's when I was like, "Oh, dang!" Like... 296 00:18:11,358 --> 00:18:13,460 And I didn't know I was gonna get tied down. 297 00:18:13,893 --> 00:18:16,329 I had no idea what it'd be for. 298 00:18:16,363 --> 00:18:18,498 Honestly, I was like, "Okay, what?" 299 00:18:19,766 --> 00:18:22,869 At that point I was like, "All right, you know what? It's already going down. 300 00:18:22,902 --> 00:18:24,371 I don't really know what it's for, 301 00:18:24,404 --> 00:18:26,105 but hopefully it never gets out." 302 00:18:28,641 --> 00:18:30,643 (laughing) 303 00:18:36,949 --> 00:18:39,419 (laughing) 304 00:18:42,622 --> 00:18:46,259 (laughing) 305 00:18:46,426 --> 00:18:48,161 No, no, no. Not any fuckin'... 306 00:18:48,195 --> 00:18:52,131 Ah! Fuck! That actually tickles, dude. (laughs) 307 00:18:54,801 --> 00:18:58,605 Ah! Fuck! (laughs) 308 00:18:58,638 --> 00:19:01,708 Being violated on so many different levels right now. 309 00:19:01,741 --> 00:19:04,911 There was other athletes. There was MMA guys. 310 00:19:04,944 --> 00:19:06,279 there was a bodybuilder, 311 00:19:06,313 --> 00:19:09,516 and then there was a couple of actors, normal actors. 312 00:19:09,549 --> 00:19:11,251 I've seen some of them on commercials, 313 00:19:11,284 --> 00:19:13,386 TV commercials. Normal guys. 314 00:19:13,420 --> 00:19:16,189 Like, completely normal people. 315 00:19:17,824 --> 00:19:20,260 (laughs) Get the fuck off my feet! 316 00:19:20,293 --> 00:19:21,661 It was a torture project. 317 00:19:21,694 --> 00:19:23,963 That's what I believe Kevin Clarke told me. 318 00:19:23,996 --> 00:19:28,535 There was something to do with even a military tactic, or something like that. 319 00:19:28,568 --> 00:19:30,169 He was gonna do... 320 00:19:30,337 --> 00:19:32,605 I think he said Jane was doing a project 321 00:19:32,639 --> 00:19:35,808 on using tickling as a military tactic. 322 00:19:35,842 --> 00:19:36,743 And at that point, I... 323 00:19:36,776 --> 00:19:38,778 I knew it was complete bullshit, you know? 324 00:19:38,811 --> 00:19:40,980 I was like, "Okay, the military is gonna use tickling 325 00:19:41,013 --> 00:19:43,516 as a torture tactic?" 326 00:19:43,550 --> 00:19:45,685 (laughs) Fuck! 327 00:19:47,454 --> 00:19:48,288 (laughing) 328 00:19:49,489 --> 00:19:52,191 David: When did the video come back to get you? 329 00:19:53,293 --> 00:19:56,296 About a year, maybe a little more, ago. 330 00:19:56,329 --> 00:20:00,733 (crowd cheering) 331 00:20:03,603 --> 00:20:04,737 (whistle blows) 332 00:20:05,905 --> 00:20:07,006 TJ: I would google myself once in a while, 333 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:08,275 to read old articles 334 00:20:09,609 --> 00:20:10,610 or see what teams might have listed me in an article 335 00:20:10,643 --> 00:20:11,711 or try-outs. 336 00:20:11,744 --> 00:20:13,480 (keyboard clacks) 337 00:20:16,449 --> 00:20:19,752 And to my surprise, a video was on YouTube. 338 00:20:19,786 --> 00:20:24,023 Hello. I'm TJ, and I'm here on a tickling competition. 339 00:20:24,056 --> 00:20:26,593 And, uh, first question is: "Are you ticklish?" 340 00:20:26,626 --> 00:20:28,728 Well, obviously I'm ticklish if I'm here, so, 341 00:20:28,761 --> 00:20:30,430 that's kind of a silly question. But, uh... 342 00:20:30,463 --> 00:20:32,732 It was just me sitting in front of the camera 343 00:20:32,765 --> 00:20:35,602 talking about the, uh, tickling process. 344 00:20:35,635 --> 00:20:38,371 Just weird things. And so I was like, "Okay, it's not that bad." 345 00:20:39,071 --> 00:20:41,274 "When you are asked, 'Are you ticklish?' 346 00:20:41,308 --> 00:20:43,643 How do you normally respond and why?" 347 00:20:43,910 --> 00:20:47,580 Normally, I say, "No, I'm not ticklish." 348 00:20:49,449 --> 00:20:52,785 So I emailed Jane and asked her to take the video down. 349 00:20:56,723 --> 00:20:58,958 She didn't ever reply. 350 00:20:58,991 --> 00:21:01,494 So I took the matters into my own hands, 351 00:21:01,528 --> 00:21:03,496 and I, uh, told YouTube that 352 00:21:03,530 --> 00:21:05,698 uh, they're illegally using my name. 353 00:21:08,901 --> 00:21:12,872 So YouTube took the video down. That's when it all started. 354 00:21:17,109 --> 00:21:18,878 Woman: "Now, I am laughing." 355 00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:22,515 "I don't think you've grasped the magnitude 356 00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:24,050 of what you have provoked." 357 00:21:24,617 --> 00:21:27,387 "I'm interested to see how you handle the fallout. 358 00:21:27,420 --> 00:21:31,791 So far, badly." "Regards, Debbie J. Kuhn." 359 00:21:31,824 --> 00:21:34,927 That's when this Deborah person popped into my life. 360 00:21:34,961 --> 00:21:38,297 I mean, just all hell broke loose. 361 00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:45,538 Every kind of video search you can find, it was up there. 362 00:21:47,106 --> 00:21:49,008 And then it pops up in my emails, 363 00:21:49,041 --> 00:21:50,977 and then it pops up more on YouTube, 364 00:21:51,544 --> 00:21:53,012 And it just starts appearing everywhere. 365 00:21:53,045 --> 00:21:54,514 This video... Just, all of them. 366 00:21:54,547 --> 00:21:55,982 All of them start blowing up. 367 00:21:56,015 --> 00:21:57,850 (laughing) 368 00:22:05,525 --> 00:22:06,959 And there was threats. It said, "Watch out! 369 00:22:06,993 --> 00:22:08,027 Your family better watch out 370 00:22:09,095 --> 00:22:10,262 because we're gonna put your last name to shame. 371 00:22:10,296 --> 00:22:12,865 Any time you search your last name, it's gonna pop up." 372 00:22:12,899 --> 00:22:14,701 Like, direct threats. 373 00:22:17,604 --> 00:22:18,971 They ended up making a website, 374 00:22:19,005 --> 00:22:20,540 putting my personal information: 375 00:22:20,573 --> 00:22:22,475 my name, my address, 376 00:22:22,509 --> 00:22:25,478 my personal phone number, my email address, 377 00:22:26,145 --> 00:22:28,448 all with just dumb lies. 378 00:22:31,017 --> 00:22:34,421 Then Debbie Kuhn starts going off on me left and right, 379 00:22:34,454 --> 00:22:36,656 sending emails to the high school that I coach at. 380 00:22:37,023 --> 00:22:40,460 Woman: "I have additional information as a past employer. 381 00:22:40,493 --> 00:22:42,395 You don't want this guy in your league. 382 00:22:42,429 --> 00:22:44,931 Can you afford the distraction, the press, 383 00:22:44,964 --> 00:22:48,601 with an outed gay guy having a male tickling fetish, 384 00:22:48,635 --> 00:22:50,670 in which he likes to tickle and be tickled 385 00:22:50,703 --> 00:22:53,773 by tied-up other gay athletes and bodybuilders?" 386 00:22:53,806 --> 00:22:55,708 False accusations, saying I'm a drug addict 387 00:22:55,742 --> 00:22:58,478 and I was a child molester and I'm gay, and this and that, 388 00:22:58,511 --> 00:23:00,713 which none of those things have ever been true. 389 00:23:08,521 --> 00:23:13,660 (indistinct shouting) 390 00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:18,765 I've always been very proud. 391 00:23:18,798 --> 00:23:20,633 The way I walk around, I'm proud of who I am. 392 00:23:20,667 --> 00:23:22,068 You know what I mean? So to speak. 393 00:23:22,101 --> 00:23:23,603 I'm confident in myself as an athlete, 394 00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:24,971 as a person, as a player. 395 00:23:26,205 --> 00:23:27,306 But when I'd go to try-outs, 396 00:23:27,339 --> 00:23:28,941 the first thing I would think about is, 397 00:23:28,975 --> 00:23:32,011 "Well, I wonder if these coaches have looked up that video?" 398 00:23:34,113 --> 00:23:35,648 And it's happened. It has happened. 399 00:23:35,682 --> 00:23:37,517 I've been released from football teams. 400 00:23:37,550 --> 00:23:38,651 They've told me, uh, 401 00:23:38,685 --> 00:23:41,721 that I'm the best player on that team at that position, 402 00:23:41,754 --> 00:23:44,657 but because it is a distraction for the media, 403 00:23:44,691 --> 00:23:46,258 they don't need that attention 404 00:23:46,292 --> 00:23:48,160 and they'll go with somebody else 'cause they don't feel like explaining it. 405 00:23:49,762 --> 00:23:52,865 You know, and I've actually dealt with a lot of things because of it. 406 00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:57,103 It's cost me money, it's cost me jobs, it's caused me harassment, 407 00:23:57,136 --> 00:24:00,640 which is exactly what Debbie Kuhn and Jane O'Brien wanted. 408 00:24:00,673 --> 00:24:03,643 So, I mean, more or less in that aspect, they've won. 409 00:24:06,813 --> 00:24:09,448 (train horn blares) 410 00:24:13,152 --> 00:24:16,188 David: It's obvious we're not the only ones being harassed 411 00:24:16,222 --> 00:24:17,890 by Jane O'Brien Media. 412 00:24:17,924 --> 00:24:21,661 And there are so many websites made up like TJ's 413 00:24:21,694 --> 00:24:23,530 Which seem to exist purely 414 00:24:23,563 --> 00:24:25,698 to shame the guys who've been tickled. 415 00:24:28,735 --> 00:24:32,471 What goes on at these shoots, and why is she so aggressive? 416 00:24:34,306 --> 00:24:35,675 Dylan's been doing some research, 417 00:24:35,708 --> 00:24:38,911 and he thinks he knows where the next shoot is happening. 418 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,516 We stake out the studio, hoping to find out 419 00:24:43,550 --> 00:24:46,719 how a competitive tickling shoot goes down. 420 00:24:47,587 --> 00:24:48,855 Dominic: Okay, car. 421 00:24:55,628 --> 00:24:57,630 And another car. Two cars. 422 00:24:57,897 --> 00:24:59,498 David: Two cars. 423 00:25:04,937 --> 00:25:06,573 Dominic: Can you see what the car's doing? 424 00:25:06,606 --> 00:25:07,840 I've lost him. 425 00:25:12,111 --> 00:25:14,647 - Dominic: Who's that guy? - David: Oh, that's Marko. 426 00:25:17,016 --> 00:25:20,620 Dylan: Oh, yeah. And we've got four guys going in so far. 427 00:25:20,653 --> 00:25:21,988 Dominic: Four guys. 428 00:25:26,626 --> 00:25:28,160 Dylan: That's the guy from New Zealand. 429 00:25:28,194 --> 00:25:29,896 David: Yep, there's Kevin. 430 00:25:45,244 --> 00:25:51,684 (laughter echoes) 431 00:25:51,718 --> 00:25:54,654 David: We could hear laughter coming out of the vents. 432 00:25:55,087 --> 00:25:56,923 (laughter echoes) 433 00:25:58,390 --> 00:26:00,827 It went on for hours, 434 00:26:02,361 --> 00:26:05,031 The boys occasionally taking breaks. 435 00:26:17,143 --> 00:26:19,345 You know, this is actually fucking creepy as fuck. 436 00:26:19,378 --> 00:26:21,614 Dylan: Like, this feels to me like a pep talk. 437 00:26:21,648 --> 00:26:22,815 Dominic: Yeah. 438 00:26:24,350 --> 00:26:25,384 David: As the day wraps up, 439 00:26:25,417 --> 00:26:28,154 I want to give Kevin one last chance 440 00:26:28,187 --> 00:26:30,122 to talk about what's going on. 441 00:26:31,724 --> 00:26:32,992 With pending lawsuits, 442 00:26:33,025 --> 00:26:36,763 I'm cautious and don't want to storm into the studio. 443 00:26:38,765 --> 00:26:40,066 David: They haven't locked the door. 444 00:26:40,099 --> 00:26:41,768 Dylan: I think we go. 445 00:26:44,303 --> 00:26:45,972 All right. Okay, let's go. 446 00:26:46,673 --> 00:26:48,841 - David: We're good? - Dominic: Yep, we're good. 447 00:26:59,185 --> 00:27:00,619 Dominic: Come this way. 448 00:27:01,821 --> 00:27:04,757 David: Here we go. We've been spotted. 449 00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:18,104 Hello, Marko. Hey, guys. 450 00:27:27,179 --> 00:27:28,380 Adam, how's it going? 451 00:27:28,414 --> 00:27:30,149 Adam: 452 00:27:32,151 --> 00:27:33,686 Hello, sir. 453 00:27:33,853 --> 00:27:35,187 Kevin: 454 00:27:35,755 --> 00:27:37,023 We're not welcome here? 455 00:27:40,392 --> 00:27:42,161 All right. Well, we'll head off. 456 00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:44,764 You don't want to do any final chats or anything? 457 00:27:44,797 --> 00:27:46,032 Last opportunity. 458 00:27:51,170 --> 00:27:52,671 That's all we can do. 459 00:27:59,979 --> 00:28:02,181 GPS: Turn right on Bellevue Avenue, 460 00:28:02,214 --> 00:28:04,050 then take the first right. 461 00:28:05,217 --> 00:28:09,188 I think... Yeah, uh, after New Zealand and that, 462 00:28:09,221 --> 00:28:12,491 I think it's safe to say that we don't... 463 00:28:12,524 --> 00:28:15,127 We don't have an interview with Kevin or Marko. 464 00:28:15,828 --> 00:28:17,029 And we certainly weren't getting 465 00:28:17,063 --> 00:28:20,199 any more of the competitors to talk on camera. 466 00:28:20,232 --> 00:28:21,633 They were all too terrified, 467 00:28:21,667 --> 00:28:26,105 hoping if they stayed quiet, the harassment would go away. 468 00:28:28,140 --> 00:28:30,743 Dylan: I mean, are we making the whole thing worse for everyone 469 00:28:30,777 --> 00:28:32,344 just by even being here? 470 00:28:32,378 --> 00:28:34,080 David: Yeah. I think it's possible. 471 00:28:34,113 --> 00:28:37,283 I worry that we make it worse for some people who... 472 00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:39,351 Who've gotten through the worst of it, you know? 473 00:28:39,385 --> 00:28:40,719 Dylan: Mm. 474 00:28:54,366 --> 00:28:57,036 (scanner beeps and whirs) 475 00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:59,839 David: Jane O'Brien clearly isn't being honest 476 00:28:59,872 --> 00:29:01,373 about what the videos are for. 477 00:29:01,874 --> 00:29:04,310 And I'm convinced that despite the Adidas gear, 478 00:29:04,343 --> 00:29:06,946 it's not a real sport. 479 00:29:11,450 --> 00:29:13,352 I've tracked down a man in Florida 480 00:29:13,385 --> 00:29:15,321 who also makes tickling videos, 481 00:29:15,354 --> 00:29:19,225 but, unlike Jane, is more than happy to talk about it. 482 00:29:48,554 --> 00:29:52,091 Richard: People ask me about what is the appeal of tickling? 483 00:29:53,292 --> 00:29:56,128 It's kind of like the whips and chains, you know, 484 00:29:56,162 --> 00:29:58,931 bondage sort of thing, where somebody's getting flogged. 485 00:29:58,965 --> 00:30:02,434 But it's just really brought down a level, you know? 486 00:30:02,468 --> 00:30:04,170 It's like kind of a sadistic 487 00:30:04,203 --> 00:30:06,605 exerting your will on someone else, 488 00:30:06,638 --> 00:30:08,941 and having them do something out of their control 489 00:30:08,975 --> 00:30:11,577 like laughing without being able to get away, 490 00:30:11,610 --> 00:30:15,014 as if it's, uh, tickle torture to them. 491 00:30:16,148 --> 00:30:17,917 David: And a lot of people don't seem to know 492 00:30:17,950 --> 00:30:19,585 about the tickling fetish. 493 00:30:19,618 --> 00:30:21,453 Do you think it's a little bit more unknown? 494 00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:23,389 Oh, totally. Yeah, completely. 495 00:30:23,422 --> 00:30:26,258 'Cause most people, you know, know about a foot fetish, 496 00:30:27,226 --> 00:30:28,627 um, but tickling? 497 00:30:28,660 --> 00:30:31,163 Most people are like, "Oh, wow. Is that a thing?" 498 00:30:33,299 --> 00:30:39,305 It was in 1999. I had just gotten out of grad school, 499 00:30:40,973 --> 00:30:42,875 You know, so I just got a video camera, 500 00:30:42,909 --> 00:30:44,410 put together a little business plan, 501 00:30:45,544 --> 00:30:46,545 Talked to one of my friends 502 00:30:47,746 --> 00:30:48,480 and he financed me, when I started the site, 503 00:30:48,514 --> 00:30:51,317 I think for $6000 or $7000. 504 00:30:53,052 --> 00:30:55,287 It got pretty much an immediate response. 505 00:31:08,634 --> 00:31:09,601 I was making enough after a year 506 00:31:09,635 --> 00:31:12,104 to quit my job and do it full-time. 507 00:31:15,674 --> 00:31:16,909 David: So this is it? 508 00:31:17,143 --> 00:31:18,677 - This is it. - This is the studio. 509 00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:21,013 - Mm-hm. - The chair. 510 00:31:22,048 --> 00:31:24,883 And then the changing room, bathroom. 511 00:31:25,051 --> 00:31:28,020 And so, this whole place is purely for the tickling? 512 00:31:28,054 --> 00:31:29,121 Yes. 513 00:31:32,624 --> 00:31:34,994 David: Oh, so you've got a few different spaces, right? 514 00:31:35,027 --> 00:31:36,062 Richard: Yeah, yeah. 515 00:31:36,095 --> 00:31:38,164 I used to do all this out of my house. 516 00:31:38,197 --> 00:31:38,931 David: Yeah. 517 00:31:40,132 --> 00:31:41,533 And then it was, you know, a parade of people coming in, 518 00:31:41,567 --> 00:31:44,303 do all this, have to clean up. 519 00:31:44,336 --> 00:31:47,439 You know, have to clean it up before a shoot. 520 00:31:47,473 --> 00:31:50,076 And this way I can walk away. 521 00:31:50,109 --> 00:31:51,177 Yeah, this is great. 522 00:31:51,210 --> 00:31:52,444 Like, "I'm tired. Going home." 523 00:31:52,478 --> 00:31:53,679 David: You're done. 524 00:31:53,712 --> 00:31:55,514 Well, this is work, right? It's like work, home. 525 00:31:55,547 --> 00:31:56,983 Richard: Mm-hm. Exactly. 526 00:31:58,117 --> 00:32:00,152 Have you done stuff like this before for anyone else? 527 00:32:00,186 --> 00:32:02,021 Or this sort of a unique thing for you? 528 00:32:02,054 --> 00:32:03,355 Uh, unique thing. 529 00:32:03,389 --> 00:32:06,092 I never worked for a tickling site before. 530 00:32:06,125 --> 00:32:07,093 - Okay. - Man: No. 531 00:32:08,527 --> 00:32:09,261 David: And what did you first think when you got the pitch? 532 00:32:09,295 --> 00:32:10,396 Man: I mean, I laughed about it. 533 00:32:10,429 --> 00:32:13,032 I'm like, this can't be really serious, 534 00:32:13,065 --> 00:32:14,700 Like, people really can't... 535 00:32:14,733 --> 00:32:17,503 enjoy watching this or getting it done. 536 00:32:18,170 --> 00:32:19,305 But, um, I said, "Why not?" 537 00:32:19,338 --> 00:32:21,040 You know, I'm more of like the risk-taker. 538 00:32:21,073 --> 00:32:23,709 I'd rather say I did something than didn't do something. 539 00:32:23,742 --> 00:32:24,943 So I came down, 540 00:32:26,145 --> 00:32:27,046 really was kind of nervous, didn't know what to expect. 541 00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:29,281 And then... But Richard put me at ease, 542 00:32:29,315 --> 00:32:31,317 and once you're trapped in you're there. 543 00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:34,320 So, I mean, you might as well enjoy it. (chuckles) 544 00:32:34,486 --> 00:32:35,954 All right. 545 00:32:37,756 --> 00:32:41,093 - Richard: Okay, ready? - I think you're... 546 00:32:42,261 --> 00:32:43,195 Man: Take it easy on me today. 547 00:32:43,229 --> 00:32:44,730 Richard: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 548 00:32:44,763 --> 00:32:46,098 Man: That's good. 549 00:32:51,137 --> 00:32:53,005 - Got to enjoy my freedom now. - Richard: Yeah. 550 00:32:53,339 --> 00:32:55,607 - Because I cannot. - Richard: Wave goodbye. 551 00:32:55,641 --> 00:32:57,343 I am not getting out. 552 00:32:58,510 --> 00:33:00,112 Oh, shit. 553 00:33:02,248 --> 00:33:05,351 (sighs) The world of tickling. 554 00:33:08,654 --> 00:33:09,988 (chuckles) 555 00:33:10,122 --> 00:33:11,990 So, catch your breath. 556 00:33:14,093 --> 00:33:16,362 - (exhales) Breath caught. - Okay. 557 00:33:16,395 --> 00:33:20,166 (laughing) 558 00:33:25,704 --> 00:33:27,806 All right. (laughs) 559 00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:29,608 Now tell everybody what a tough guy you are. 560 00:33:30,142 --> 00:33:32,778 (laughing wheezily) 561 00:33:32,811 --> 00:33:38,550 (sighs) Just go. (laughs) 562 00:33:44,623 --> 00:33:50,529 (laughs) 563 00:33:52,331 --> 00:33:53,599 (laughs) Stop. 564 00:33:57,703 --> 00:34:01,773 (laughing) 565 00:34:01,807 --> 00:34:03,475 Oh, my gosh. 566 00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:06,044 I hate this. 567 00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:19,458 (laughing wheezily) 568 00:34:49,855 --> 00:34:51,457 David: So when did you realize 569 00:34:51,490 --> 00:34:56,662 that you found tickling to be an erotic thing? 570 00:34:57,629 --> 00:34:58,830 Richard: I was very young, 571 00:34:58,864 --> 00:35:04,136 you know, probably five or six. You know, very, very young. 572 00:35:08,340 --> 00:35:13,345 You see something in a cartoon or a magazine that, you know, 573 00:35:13,379 --> 00:35:15,447 kind of interests you as a little kid, 574 00:35:15,481 --> 00:35:17,349 and for me it would be, you know, like, 575 00:35:17,383 --> 00:35:20,352 cartoon characters being tickled or tied up or, 576 00:35:20,386 --> 00:35:21,787 you know, that sort of thing. 577 00:35:21,820 --> 00:35:24,623 And it would, you know, fascinate me, 578 00:35:24,656 --> 00:35:27,193 but I had no idea why. 579 00:35:49,948 --> 00:35:52,684 - (sighs) - Richard: How do you feel? 580 00:35:53,419 --> 00:35:54,653 I feel tired. 581 00:35:54,686 --> 00:35:57,256 - I feel sweaty. - Can I get you some water? 582 00:35:57,289 --> 00:36:02,528 Yeah, water would probably work. (exhales heavily) 583 00:36:03,562 --> 00:36:06,198 Richard: I started to become comfortable with this, uh, 584 00:36:06,232 --> 00:36:07,599 fetish and this part of myself, 585 00:36:09,067 --> 00:36:10,969 and started to really realize that it was a part of myself, 586 00:36:11,002 --> 00:36:12,271 when I... 587 00:36:12,304 --> 00:36:14,640 When I got on AOL 588 00:36:15,006 --> 00:36:17,209 and then did a search for what I was looking for 589 00:36:17,243 --> 00:36:17,943 and found that, "Wow! 590 00:36:18,877 --> 00:36:19,645 There's actually, you know, quite a lot of 591 00:36:19,678 --> 00:36:21,313 other people that are into this." 592 00:36:28,487 --> 00:36:30,856 At the time, the late '90s, 593 00:36:31,357 --> 00:36:34,693 was, um, somebody that posted on the message boards a lot. 594 00:36:35,727 --> 00:36:39,465 And she said her name was Terri, Terri Tickle. 595 00:36:39,731 --> 00:36:45,203 And Terri DiSisto, she put in what her real name was. 596 00:36:46,538 --> 00:36:48,440 She always had a picture of herself. 597 00:36:48,607 --> 00:36:51,877 You know, a blonde, pretty, college-aged girl. 598 00:36:52,344 --> 00:36:56,282 And, she always posted the same verbiage. 599 00:36:56,315 --> 00:36:57,849 Something like, "This is not porn. 600 00:36:57,883 --> 00:36:59,751 My interest is in tickling." 601 00:37:00,619 --> 00:37:04,890 And she just said that she was a tickling fanatic and... 602 00:37:05,491 --> 00:37:07,859 But, I mean, these posts were everywhere. 603 00:37:08,460 --> 00:37:10,762 (laughing on computer) 604 00:37:10,796 --> 00:37:13,365 And then, um, some videos started popping up, 605 00:37:13,399 --> 00:37:15,667 you know, very, you know, innocent. 606 00:37:15,701 --> 00:37:16,835 (laughing on computer) 607 00:37:17,869 --> 00:37:19,571 And, those are probably the first 608 00:37:20,806 --> 00:37:24,443 tickle videos that I ever saw on the Internet. 609 00:37:26,712 --> 00:37:28,480 (laughing) 610 00:37:28,514 --> 00:37:30,982 David: There are still traces of Terri Tickle online 611 00:37:31,016 --> 00:37:32,183 from the mid-'90s, 612 00:37:32,217 --> 00:37:35,721 And as Richard said, she was tickle-obsessed. 613 00:37:35,754 --> 00:37:38,490 Like Jane, she also hired other people 614 00:37:38,524 --> 00:37:40,492 to shoot the videos she wanted. 615 00:37:42,961 --> 00:37:48,567 Well, the, uh, just strange, rich brat, 616 00:37:49,067 --> 00:37:50,702 I guess you could say. 617 00:37:51,503 --> 00:37:55,374 Someone who, uh, got her rocks off by, uh, 618 00:37:55,407 --> 00:37:58,043 seeing guys, uh, tied and tickled. 619 00:37:58,076 --> 00:38:01,279 Obviously an extreme dominatrix. 620 00:38:03,014 --> 00:38:04,450 David: For most of his life, 621 00:38:04,483 --> 00:38:06,418 Dave Starr has worked on the edges 622 00:38:06,452 --> 00:38:08,387 of the entertainment industry, 623 00:38:08,620 --> 00:38:11,557 even acting in a couple of pornos. 624 00:38:11,823 --> 00:38:12,824 During the mid-'90s, 625 00:38:14,125 --> 00:38:16,562 he noticed Terri's online posts wanting tickling videos... 626 00:38:17,095 --> 00:38:18,564 lots of them. 627 00:38:21,066 --> 00:38:26,438 Dave: Terri was, uh, out there looking for guys, uh, 18 to 23. 628 00:38:27,138 --> 00:38:31,677 And I, uh, figured that it would, um... 629 00:38:32,711 --> 00:38:35,080 be something right up my alley, 630 00:38:35,113 --> 00:38:37,716 based on my, uh, working in casting. 631 00:38:40,586 --> 00:38:44,390 David: What sort of things was she recruiting for specifically? 632 00:38:45,624 --> 00:38:49,595 Uh, tickle torture films. Tickle torture videos. 633 00:38:50,161 --> 00:38:52,464 Can you turn that thing around so I can see it? 634 00:38:52,731 --> 00:38:53,832 Man: All right. 635 00:38:56,101 --> 00:38:57,869 - Is that all right? - Yeah, that's good. 636 00:38:57,903 --> 00:39:01,139 (laughing) 637 00:39:01,172 --> 00:39:04,743 Dave: She claimed it was for a private collection, 638 00:39:06,612 --> 00:39:09,648 so I was thinking, "Okay, amateur hour." 639 00:39:09,681 --> 00:39:13,885 (laughing) 640 00:39:15,787 --> 00:39:21,059 But me, I rapidly took it into a professional level. 641 00:39:21,793 --> 00:39:24,530 Man 1: Okay, are you, uh, ticklish? 642 00:39:24,796 --> 00:39:25,964 Man 2: Uh, yes, I am. 643 00:39:26,432 --> 00:39:28,500 Man 1: Okay, step forward about a foot. 644 00:39:28,734 --> 00:39:32,504 Okay. Place your hands behind your head, inter-clasp them. 645 00:39:32,538 --> 00:39:34,540 Step back a little further, though. 646 00:39:34,573 --> 00:39:35,974 Okay, right about there. 647 00:39:36,007 --> 00:39:37,409 Okay, inter-clasp them 648 00:39:37,443 --> 00:39:39,578 and do not release them at any time 649 00:39:39,611 --> 00:39:41,046 during the entire tickle test. 650 00:39:41,079 --> 00:39:42,681 Do your worst on this one. 651 00:39:43,048 --> 00:39:44,450 Dave: We would put them in through 652 00:39:44,483 --> 00:39:46,485 their stage one audition, 653 00:39:46,518 --> 00:39:49,955 which is the questions and the test tickles. 654 00:39:50,856 --> 00:39:53,959 Man 1: Do not collapse. Stay looking up at us. 655 00:39:53,992 --> 00:39:59,765 (laughing) 656 00:39:59,798 --> 00:40:01,433 Stay facing us. 657 00:40:01,767 --> 00:40:08,006 (laughing) 658 00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:15,180 Dave: Stage two is tying them to the table, tickling them, 659 00:40:15,213 --> 00:40:17,215 Flipping them over every 15 minutes, 660 00:40:17,248 --> 00:40:20,819 kind of like a sausage or meat. (laughs) 661 00:40:21,052 --> 00:40:24,523 (laughing) 662 00:40:24,556 --> 00:40:25,924 Dave: And then after that, uh, 663 00:40:25,957 --> 00:40:29,961 we had the competitive tickling at that point. 664 00:40:29,995 --> 00:40:32,964 Tickle wars and stuff like that. 665 00:40:32,998 --> 00:40:37,603 And that would involve a massive production. 666 00:40:38,003 --> 00:40:41,740 (laughing) 667 00:40:51,683 --> 00:40:53,118 Woman: Okay, don't laugh. 668 00:40:53,652 --> 00:40:55,821 You're giggling already, aren't you? 669 00:40:57,623 --> 00:40:59,791 Well, you just might be the type of person 670 00:40:59,825 --> 00:41:01,993 that David Starr is looking for. 671 00:41:02,027 --> 00:41:03,128 He is a Hollywood producer 672 00:41:03,161 --> 00:41:05,964 working on a new reality-based game show 673 00:41:05,997 --> 00:41:08,534 called Tickle Talk. 674 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,871 Dave: 675 00:41:18,877 --> 00:41:20,178 Woman: It might be preferable to 676 00:41:20,211 --> 00:41:22,548 eating rats or grubs on Survivor 677 00:41:22,581 --> 00:41:24,249 but just barely. 678 00:41:24,282 --> 00:41:27,686 I'm Anne James, KSEN K96 News. 679 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,656 David: Dave Starr had steady work for five years, 680 00:41:30,689 --> 00:41:33,959 Even when Terri was hospitalized for six months. 681 00:41:34,593 --> 00:41:35,794 During that time, 682 00:41:35,827 --> 00:41:37,596 She just wrote letters specifying 683 00:41:37,629 --> 00:41:40,599 exactly what she wanted in the tickling videos. 684 00:41:40,632 --> 00:41:42,801 Terri: "David, Merry Christmas! 685 00:41:42,834 --> 00:41:45,003 So sorry, I'm in the hospital with mono." 686 00:41:45,036 --> 00:41:48,006 "David, just a few things I need you to do..." 687 00:41:48,039 --> 00:41:50,776 "Tell them I will send the computer as soon as I'm well." 688 00:41:50,809 --> 00:41:53,011 "His name is Josh." "I hope to be online again in Feb." 689 00:41:53,044 --> 00:41:56,648 "I'm still sick in bed." "That's all for now. TD." 690 00:41:59,751 --> 00:42:02,120 My most ticklish place is, I guess... 691 00:42:02,988 --> 00:42:07,559 definitely, like... It'd have to be in my legs... 692 00:42:08,126 --> 00:42:11,663 more than, like, my armpits or my feet, I think, but... 693 00:42:11,863 --> 00:42:14,633 Dave: At that time she wanted to put up 694 00:42:14,666 --> 00:42:17,903 and did indeed put up a website for a while, uh, 695 00:42:17,936 --> 00:42:21,907 unauthorized releasing of the videos... 696 00:42:22,908 --> 00:42:24,976 against the agreement of the talent, 697 00:42:25,611 --> 00:42:26,978 and I flipped my lid. 698 00:42:27,312 --> 00:42:29,014 And, lo and behold, 699 00:42:29,047 --> 00:42:32,984 she goes and registers domains in their names 700 00:42:33,652 --> 00:42:35,186 and then proceeds to... 701 00:42:35,954 --> 00:42:40,091 release all their content on to those particular websites. 702 00:42:41,059 --> 00:42:46,998 (distorted laughter) 703 00:42:47,699 --> 00:42:53,639 Alden: She was, like, sending me emails about, um, 704 00:42:53,672 --> 00:42:55,006 "What do you think your mother's 705 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,642 gonna think about this?" 706 00:42:58,043 --> 00:43:00,946 And then, like, I'd be like, you know, "Fuck you, bitch." 707 00:43:00,979 --> 00:43:05,717 And she'd be, like... (tuts) like, totally antagonizing. 708 00:43:05,751 --> 00:43:10,722 Like... (stutters) I mean, she was such a cunt. 709 00:43:15,026 --> 00:43:19,064 It was an assault not just on me but on my family, you know? 710 00:43:19,998 --> 00:43:22,868 I mean, I couldn't have a more conservative family, you know? 711 00:43:22,901 --> 00:43:26,738 I'm, I'm in a family full of republican, military people, 712 00:43:26,772 --> 00:43:30,108 And I'm a... I was a professional banker. 713 00:43:30,141 --> 00:43:34,813 And here I am, like, with basically a porn site, 714 00:43:34,846 --> 00:43:37,949 where I'm not naked, but, I mean, I might as well be. 715 00:43:37,983 --> 00:43:41,186 (sighs) You know, this was ruining my life at the time. 716 00:43:41,219 --> 00:43:42,287 That's how I felt. 717 00:43:43,388 --> 00:43:45,824 It certainly was affecting my ability to function, 718 00:43:45,857 --> 00:43:51,262 (stutters) because it was so emotionally draining. 719 00:43:51,296 --> 00:43:56,935 Part of the reason was because there's nobody to help me. 720 00:43:58,069 --> 00:44:02,640 It's like you lose control over, you know, your life. 721 00:44:09,781 --> 00:44:13,451 Dave: Well, that's when the, uh, crap started happening, 722 00:44:13,484 --> 00:44:14,986 uh, with me. 723 00:44:15,921 --> 00:44:19,090 Um, you decide, "Okay, because I, uh, 724 00:44:19,124 --> 00:44:22,327 I closed down submissions for her, 725 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:23,361 And, 726 00:44:24,562 --> 00:44:27,933 I guess, I basically was like her tickling drug dealer, 727 00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:31,870 And, uh, since she wasn't getting her drug any more, 728 00:44:31,903 --> 00:44:34,773 She was going through tickle withdrawals. (laughs) 729 00:44:36,341 --> 00:44:38,209 David: And what happened? 730 00:44:39,010 --> 00:44:42,480 I started, uh, receiving the, uh, 731 00:44:42,513 --> 00:44:46,684 strange postcards, and the, uh, strange messages. 732 00:44:47,252 --> 00:44:51,689 The, uh... The, uh, talent was starting to receive messages. 733 00:44:52,057 --> 00:44:56,862 And, uh, she also deployed a thing called the phone blaster, 734 00:44:56,895 --> 00:45:03,701 Which was to call everybody with obscene messages. 735 00:45:04,369 --> 00:45:08,173 Woman: (on tape) 736 00:45:38,003 --> 00:45:40,205 This person's on drugs. (laughs) 737 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,977 This person's gotta be on crystal or something, 738 00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:50,081 or taking cocaine up the ass, or something like that. 739 00:45:50,849 --> 00:45:52,217 It was weird. 740 00:45:54,585 --> 00:45:57,388 I'm glad to be able to make this available to you. 741 00:45:57,422 --> 00:46:00,258 David: David kept a number of letters Terri had sent him 742 00:46:00,291 --> 00:46:03,428 and was keen to show me the extent of the abuse. 743 00:46:04,162 --> 00:46:09,034 - All right. - This is the magic stuff. 744 00:46:10,001 --> 00:46:11,369 All right, what have we got? 745 00:46:15,540 --> 00:46:18,409 Yeah. Uh, these are basically copies 746 00:46:18,443 --> 00:46:21,246 of what she would post online. 747 00:46:21,579 --> 00:46:23,448 So who's Barbara? Is that your...? 748 00:46:23,481 --> 00:46:24,983 That's my mother. 749 00:46:25,483 --> 00:46:27,418 David: "Hairy and horny. Hairy and horny. 750 00:46:27,452 --> 00:46:29,554 Jewish tickle filmer David W. Starr 751 00:46:29,587 --> 00:46:30,788 is hook-nosed, hairy and horny." 752 00:46:30,822 --> 00:46:36,828 (laughs) She's used that tagline for many, many, many times. 753 00:46:36,862 --> 00:46:37,728 What did your...? 754 00:46:38,196 --> 00:46:40,031 What did your mother think of this stuff 755 00:46:40,065 --> 00:46:42,100 when this turned up? I mean... 756 00:46:42,133 --> 00:46:44,135 Actually, her phrase was, uh... 757 00:46:44,169 --> 00:46:47,205 Here's a, uh, note that she left me because, uh, 758 00:46:47,238 --> 00:46:49,240 she would hold these for me in the mail 759 00:46:49,274 --> 00:46:52,577 and basically just say, "Here's another nasty thing." 760 00:46:52,610 --> 00:46:55,080 And that one actually is unopened. 761 00:46:55,113 --> 00:46:58,016 I've never even opened it to this date. 762 00:46:59,250 --> 00:47:04,222 And let's see what our little illustrious friend had to say. 763 00:47:04,555 --> 00:47:06,958 Oh, God. So it's a card. 764 00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:11,596 David: "Roses are red, violets are bue." 765 00:47:11,629 --> 00:47:13,298 Can't spell worth shit. 766 00:47:13,331 --> 00:47:16,201 "David W. Starr has brought this upon you. 767 00:47:16,234 --> 00:47:19,237 Perhaps you wish, perhaps instead, 768 00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:21,940 that David your failure, not Edward, were dead." 769 00:47:21,973 --> 00:47:24,876 That's a reference to my brother, who is dead. 770 00:47:25,676 --> 00:47:29,180 That's, uh, really extreme. A little bit psycho. 771 00:47:29,514 --> 00:47:32,050 But, I mean, what...? When you were getting all this material 772 00:47:32,083 --> 00:47:34,920 and some of it's talking about your brother who 773 00:47:34,953 --> 00:47:36,221 - has passed away and... - Uh-huh. 774 00:47:36,254 --> 00:47:37,622 Writing this stuff to your mother, 775 00:47:37,655 --> 00:47:40,391 I mean, that, that must have... 776 00:47:41,592 --> 00:47:45,163 I mean, that... that's not nice receiving that on weekly basis. 777 00:47:45,196 --> 00:47:49,400 Uh, no, but it was on a weekly basis, uh, yeah. 778 00:47:51,502 --> 00:47:53,371 Yeah, where did they have the time? 779 00:47:55,573 --> 00:47:57,608 - Jeez, it's a birthday card. - Yeah. 780 00:47:57,642 --> 00:47:58,609 "Happy birthday. 781 00:47:59,444 --> 00:48:04,515 Edward Starr dead." This is really cruel, right? 782 00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:06,051 It's very sick. 783 00:48:10,121 --> 00:48:12,390 David: The more I hear about Terri DiSisto, 784 00:48:12,423 --> 00:48:15,026 the more she sounds like Jane O'Brien. 785 00:48:15,293 --> 00:48:19,197 To state the obvious, they both really enjoy tickling. 786 00:48:19,230 --> 00:48:22,233 They also like being in control and lashing out. 787 00:48:22,267 --> 00:48:24,202 I really appreciate it and stay in touch. 788 00:48:26,437 --> 00:48:28,706 David: And it turns out Terri's habits started 789 00:48:28,739 --> 00:48:31,142 way before Dave Starr got involved. 790 00:48:31,442 --> 00:48:34,045 I've found a journalist who'd spent a year uncovering 791 00:48:34,079 --> 00:48:37,949 the truth about Terri DiSisto during the '90s. 792 00:48:39,217 --> 00:48:42,087 Hal: Terri DiSisto's MO was to bait these boys 793 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,155 into making tickling videos with 794 00:48:44,189 --> 00:48:46,257 things that they wanted, right? 795 00:48:47,025 --> 00:48:48,559 You know, I mean, imagine being a teenage boy, 796 00:48:48,593 --> 00:48:51,963 and, like, you get this random email saying, you know, 797 00:48:51,997 --> 00:48:54,699 "I saw your posting about the Phish concert, and, uh, 798 00:48:54,732 --> 00:48:56,167 how would you like to go?" 799 00:48:56,201 --> 00:48:58,703 Or, " I can send you $1000 cash." 800 00:48:58,736 --> 00:48:59,870 And you're like... you're living in your dorm 801 00:48:59,904 --> 00:49:03,208 at James Madison University. You're like, "Yeah, sure. 802 00:49:03,241 --> 00:49:06,477 You're gonna send me $1000 cash. Right." 803 00:49:07,378 --> 00:49:10,115 FedEx pulls up in front of your dorm the next day, 804 00:49:10,148 --> 00:49:13,218 and there is ten $100 bills. 805 00:49:13,484 --> 00:49:15,020 You haven't done anything. 806 00:49:16,621 --> 00:49:19,290 She would just keep sending them whatever they wanted, 807 00:49:19,324 --> 00:49:22,593 you know. Computers, cameras, more cash, 808 00:49:22,793 --> 00:49:25,163 tickets to rock concerts. 809 00:49:26,364 --> 00:49:29,400 Then at some point, even a teenage boy 810 00:49:29,434 --> 00:49:32,037 has all the toys that they want. 811 00:49:32,637 --> 00:49:35,106 And they say, "I... I'm done." 812 00:49:36,241 --> 00:49:41,079 But I think the thing that she hates the most was no. 813 00:49:41,279 --> 00:49:45,450 It was like... A bomb went off. 814 00:49:48,119 --> 00:49:49,287 And she'd say, "Well, 815 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,524 if you don't do it, I'm gonna make your life hell." 816 00:49:55,093 --> 00:49:57,095 "I'm gonna send clips of these videos 817 00:49:57,128 --> 00:49:58,363 to your wrestling coach." 818 00:49:59,230 --> 00:50:01,499 "I'm gonna send clips of these videos to your mom." 819 00:50:01,532 --> 00:50:04,302 "I'm gonna send clips of these videos to your grandmother." 820 00:50:04,335 --> 00:50:06,071 "I'm gonna send clips of these videos 821 00:50:06,104 --> 00:50:08,239 to the president of your university." 822 00:50:08,273 --> 00:50:09,540 "I'm gonna post them all over the Internet." 823 00:50:10,775 --> 00:50:12,543 "I'm gonna pretend to be you and do things on the Internet 824 00:50:12,577 --> 00:50:15,346 that are gonna create a terrible reputation for you." 825 00:50:15,380 --> 00:50:20,118 "I'm gonna shut down the entire college campus computer system 826 00:50:20,151 --> 00:50:23,254 at your college, and they're gonna think it's you." 827 00:50:25,423 --> 00:50:26,557 And then it happened. 828 00:50:41,206 --> 00:50:43,574 Debbie: The first story I did was because 829 00:50:43,874 --> 00:50:47,645 she was attacking, um, Drexel University. 830 00:50:49,580 --> 00:50:53,651 And I found the student who, um, 831 00:50:54,385 --> 00:50:56,454 had made a number of videos for her. 832 00:50:56,587 --> 00:50:59,624 (laughs) 833 00:50:59,657 --> 00:51:03,161 And when he came to Philadelphia to go to college, 834 00:51:03,361 --> 00:51:05,596 she wanted him to continue making these videos, 835 00:51:05,630 --> 00:51:09,167 and he wanted to cut off his relationship with her. 836 00:51:09,334 --> 00:51:12,337 And she retaliated on so many levels. 837 00:51:13,904 --> 00:51:15,806 Their email servers' computers were being shut down 838 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,842 with these denial-of-service attacks 839 00:51:17,875 --> 00:51:20,645 that indicated that they were coming from him. 840 00:51:23,914 --> 00:51:25,783 Email-bombing the White House, 841 00:51:26,251 --> 00:51:28,386 indicating that it came from him. 842 00:51:29,454 --> 00:51:32,257 Yeah, that's pretty serious stuff when the Secret Service 843 00:51:32,290 --> 00:51:35,726 shows up in your college dorm and you're 19 years old. 844 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,328 (pounding on door) 845 00:51:42,333 --> 00:51:45,270 I was just curious, and I somehow 846 00:51:45,303 --> 00:51:49,207 started contacting Terri on AOL. 847 00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:50,508 She had an account. 848 00:51:52,643 --> 00:51:55,513 And we would have these chats late at night. 849 00:51:56,314 --> 00:52:00,651 And I was curious what kind of mind was behind this... 850 00:52:01,352 --> 00:52:03,621 celebrated Internet personage. 851 00:52:04,522 --> 00:52:07,492 And it was, it was kind of crazy. 852 00:52:07,525 --> 00:52:09,427 We would have these conversations, 853 00:52:09,927 --> 00:52:11,128 and she would... 854 00:52:12,197 --> 00:52:13,097 When she realized that I did wine, she would say, 855 00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:16,234 "Oh, I'm having a glass of Chardonnay!" 856 00:52:16,267 --> 00:52:20,271 And I could just hear this voice because as it went on, 857 00:52:20,305 --> 00:52:23,341 It was almost like she was completely intoxicated 858 00:52:23,541 --> 00:52:27,445 with this power that she had to... 859 00:52:27,878 --> 00:52:30,215 to be so destructive against people. 860 00:52:40,591 --> 00:52:44,762 Hal: I got word about a kid who refused to make the videos. 861 00:52:46,431 --> 00:52:48,966 He posted that he needed some help, 862 00:52:48,999 --> 00:52:51,469 and somebody said they would help him. 863 00:52:54,972 --> 00:52:57,508 And somehow he got emailed a file, 864 00:52:58,609 --> 00:53:02,813 and he was told, "If you email this zip file to Terri, 865 00:53:02,847 --> 00:53:04,582 she will leave you alone." 866 00:53:08,319 --> 00:53:10,321 And then he sent me that zip file. 867 00:53:15,660 --> 00:53:18,496 You know, and I remember opening it up and thinking... 868 00:53:19,897 --> 00:53:23,501 "Wow! You know, this is it. Like, this is... 869 00:53:23,834 --> 00:53:25,636 this is the smoking gun." 870 00:53:32,677 --> 00:53:36,381 David: The zip file contained documents from her hard drive. 871 00:53:36,414 --> 00:53:40,385 As expected, there were files relating to tickling shoots. 872 00:53:42,620 --> 00:53:47,825 But they also revealed the true identity of Terri Tickle. 873 00:54:00,771 --> 00:54:02,373 Hal: David D'Amato. 874 00:54:03,908 --> 00:54:07,645 She is really he, right? 875 00:54:17,855 --> 00:54:21,392 Debbie: He was an assistant principal in a high school? 876 00:54:24,028 --> 00:54:25,530 I just... 877 00:54:28,666 --> 00:54:31,936 couldn't believe it. 878 00:54:31,969 --> 00:54:34,605 I don't know why, but it just seemed... 879 00:54:34,639 --> 00:54:38,643 Here is this sadistic person exploiting these young people, 880 00:54:39,009 --> 00:54:40,778 often underage, 881 00:54:42,580 --> 00:54:45,816 making their lives miserable, embarrassing them, 882 00:54:46,551 --> 00:54:48,653 to an extent that it's every... 883 00:54:48,686 --> 00:54:52,690 It goes against everything that an educator should be doing. 884 00:54:59,897 --> 00:55:02,667 Hal: When I did some more checking, I found out that 885 00:55:02,700 --> 00:55:06,303 he had worked at, like, eight schools in ten years. 886 00:55:07,505 --> 00:55:09,106 Which to me was always a red flag 887 00:55:09,139 --> 00:55:10,675 that there was something else going on. 888 00:55:10,708 --> 00:55:13,744 I mean, that's more than just sheer incompetence. 889 00:55:16,414 --> 00:55:20,117 And then I found social security numbers for her 890 00:55:20,150 --> 00:55:22,587 that he had gotten fraudulently... 891 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,423 with dead people's names. 892 00:55:29,894 --> 00:55:34,465 So I contacted the FBI. 893 00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,603 I turned over all my information to them. 894 00:55:40,004 --> 00:55:43,608 Within a week, they busted him. 895 00:55:56,186 --> 00:55:58,355 Debbie: We were shocked at the sentencing 896 00:55:58,523 --> 00:56:01,158 because he got off so easy. 897 00:56:01,191 --> 00:56:03,928 For somebody who had done so much damage, 898 00:56:05,162 --> 00:56:07,031 to me it was just extraordinary. 899 00:56:07,732 --> 00:56:10,468 And to not, to not have restrictions on their 900 00:56:10,501 --> 00:56:14,539 Internet access after that, how could...? 901 00:56:14,972 --> 00:56:18,075 And the... Oh! And the idea that he was going to law school 902 00:56:18,108 --> 00:56:19,810 was just absurd. 903 00:56:22,179 --> 00:56:25,182 David: It turns out David D'Amato's father, George, 904 00:56:25,215 --> 00:56:27,918 co-founded one of wall street's biggest law firms, 905 00:56:27,952 --> 00:56:32,457 D'Amato & Lynch, and David got a really great lawyer. 906 00:56:32,823 --> 00:56:35,826 Instead of prison, D'Amato was allowed to serve his sentence 907 00:56:35,860 --> 00:56:37,895 in the halfway house while he studied law 908 00:56:37,928 --> 00:56:41,799 at his father's alma mater, Fordham University. 909 00:56:44,201 --> 00:56:46,871 Hal: The judge, for some reason, 910 00:56:46,904 --> 00:56:50,641 Decided that he would endorse the law school path, right? 911 00:56:51,241 --> 00:56:52,977 Because, like, this is exactly the kind of person 912 00:56:53,010 --> 00:56:54,712 that should be a lawyer, right? 913 00:56:54,745 --> 00:56:57,915 Somebody who has defrauded people, 914 00:56:57,948 --> 00:57:00,117 somebody who has stolen people's identities. 915 00:57:00,150 --> 00:57:01,786 A federal freakin' crime, right? 916 00:57:01,819 --> 00:57:05,189 I mean... (laughs) Like, you know, stolen identity. 917 00:57:05,222 --> 00:57:07,525 Stolen a social security number of a dead woman, 918 00:57:07,558 --> 00:57:09,627 of two dead people, right? 919 00:57:11,862 --> 00:57:15,833 It said, "David D'Amato, 39, of Garden City, 920 00:57:16,233 --> 00:57:18,669 plead guilty for two federal counts of 921 00:57:18,703 --> 00:57:20,437 computer fraud and abuse." 922 00:57:23,541 --> 00:57:25,676 Nothing about the tickling, 923 00:57:25,710 --> 00:57:29,847 nothing about the boys, nothing about the identity theft. 924 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:31,716 Zero. Nothing. 925 00:57:32,583 --> 00:57:35,586 David: Once Fordham became aware of D'Amato's convictions, 926 00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:37,655 his admission was revoked. 927 00:57:37,688 --> 00:57:39,223 No longer able to study law, 928 00:57:39,256 --> 00:57:41,759 D'Amato finished his sentence in prison. 929 00:57:42,059 --> 00:57:45,462 But I've realized that didn't stop the tickling. 930 00:57:46,163 --> 00:57:49,066 David: So, this is 2002. So this is writing to David Starr, 931 00:57:49,099 --> 00:57:51,235 who would shoot these boys tickling 932 00:57:51,268 --> 00:57:53,037 and then send the videos... 933 00:57:54,271 --> 00:57:55,573 to Terri. That was a, that's-- 934 00:57:55,606 --> 00:57:58,108 because she, what she would have is... 935 00:57:58,876 --> 00:58:00,978 - Do you want your glasses? - Back in the early days... 936 00:58:01,011 --> 00:58:02,980 Yeah. Back in the early days... 937 00:58:04,715 --> 00:58:10,821 Terri would have friends tickle them and send them the... 938 00:58:11,055 --> 00:58:12,923 They were amateur tapes. 939 00:58:12,957 --> 00:58:15,560 - These are now professional? - Well, this is... 940 00:58:15,593 --> 00:58:17,127 - Look at the date on it. - '02? 941 00:58:17,161 --> 00:58:18,262 Look at the date. 942 00:58:19,329 --> 00:58:22,600 - Is the "T" Terri? - Yeah, it's Terri writing. 943 00:58:22,633 --> 00:58:26,971 So that was during, um, lock-up time. 944 00:58:27,004 --> 00:58:29,740 Oh, in jail. I get it. 945 00:58:29,774 --> 00:58:34,945 "David, a few other things. Email... Explain my illness." 946 00:58:34,979 --> 00:58:37,247 Oh. "Tell him I'll pay everything owed 947 00:58:37,281 --> 00:58:40,284 as soon as the mono is better." 948 00:58:40,317 --> 00:58:45,990 Oh. "Get Headshots." My God! Oh, my God! 949 00:58:47,124 --> 00:58:53,598 "I won't be online for a while as I am very sick." Oh. 950 00:58:59,336 --> 00:59:04,074 - Couldn't stop. - No. No. 951 00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:08,178 David: It seems that since the mid-'90s, 952 00:59:08,212 --> 00:59:11,582 David D'Amato has never stopped finding elaborate ways 953 00:59:11,616 --> 00:59:14,084 to get young men to tickle each other. 954 00:59:14,685 --> 00:59:15,920 His persona of Terri Tickle 955 00:59:15,953 --> 00:59:19,924 seems to have dropped off the radar around 2006. 956 00:59:20,658 --> 00:59:24,695 A while later, Jane O'Brien arrived on the scene. 957 00:59:28,232 --> 00:59:30,200 We've posted this theory online, 958 00:59:30,234 --> 00:59:33,070 and David D'Amato is not happy. 959 00:59:34,805 --> 00:59:38,609 He's hired not one, but two private investigators, 960 00:59:38,643 --> 00:59:41,578 one in New Zealand and one in New York. 961 00:59:42,913 --> 00:59:46,751 The message is clear. They tell us to stop what we're doing 962 00:59:46,784 --> 00:59:50,721 and that D'Amato has nothing to do with Jane O'Brien Media. 963 00:59:52,156 --> 00:59:53,090 On top of that, 964 00:59:54,358 --> 00:59:56,861 David D'Amato has also hired a New Zealand lawyer. 965 00:59:57,094 --> 00:59:59,830 He's demanding an apology and retraction 966 00:59:59,864 --> 01:00:03,000 or else he'll see us in a New Zealand court. 967 01:00:12,176 --> 01:00:13,243 We're now being attacked 968 01:00:13,277 --> 01:00:15,813 by Jane O'Brien's lawyers on one side 969 01:00:15,846 --> 01:00:18,148 and David D'Amato's on the other, 970 01:00:18,749 --> 01:00:22,352 both insisting they have nothing to do with each other. 971 01:00:22,853 --> 01:00:25,856 Once again, we're way out of our depth. 972 01:00:28,826 --> 01:00:30,394 Things get even more surreal 973 01:00:30,427 --> 01:00:32,262 with a phone call from Michigan, 974 01:00:32,296 --> 01:00:35,065 where there's a very different tickling operation 975 01:00:35,099 --> 01:00:36,934 also being run by Jane. 976 01:00:40,170 --> 01:00:44,041 Jordan: (over phone) 977 01:01:24,448 --> 01:01:26,917 David: So, like, crime is pretty high-- 978 01:01:26,951 --> 01:01:28,753 - Jordan: Yeah-- - ...here, right? 979 01:01:28,786 --> 01:01:33,490 Murder, robberies, um, rape, I mean, theft. 980 01:01:33,523 --> 01:01:35,259 It's all up there, 981 01:01:35,292 --> 01:01:38,896 especially for being as small, um, as what it is. 982 01:01:38,929 --> 01:01:40,898 We've made it now, uh, 983 01:01:40,931 --> 01:01:45,269 on to the top 100 most dangerous cities in the United States. 984 01:01:45,970 --> 01:01:47,805 David: Do you think on some level 985 01:01:47,838 --> 01:01:51,075 Jane kind of directed things here because it is a poor area? 986 01:01:51,108 --> 01:01:54,879 Yeah, you know, the poverty level, you know, 987 01:01:54,912 --> 01:01:56,480 - is easy to target, you know. - Mm. 988 01:01:56,513 --> 01:01:59,016 Thousands of dollars in kids' hands is... 989 01:01:59,049 --> 01:02:01,185 That's a, that's a big, big deal. 990 01:02:01,218 --> 01:02:04,388 (dogs bark in distance) 991 01:02:04,421 --> 01:02:10,761 Woman: (over PA) * Oh, say does that star-spangled * 992 01:02:10,995 --> 01:02:17,868 * Banner yet wave 993 01:02:20,938 --> 01:02:28,078 * O'er the land of the free 994 01:02:30,981 --> 01:02:38,055 * And the home of the brave 995 01:02:38,088 --> 01:02:41,258 (cheering) 996 01:02:43,994 --> 01:02:47,497 (man announces indistinctly) 997 01:02:47,531 --> 01:02:53,403 David: Jane has taken a liking to one of Muskegon's main sports, mixed martial arts. 998 01:02:53,437 --> 01:02:58,008 A group of young, athletic men desperate for extra money. 999 01:03:19,296 --> 01:03:22,466 Jordan: That's what she was trying to do, is break into the MMA world. 1000 01:03:23,333 --> 01:03:26,070 Because it's not illegal to tickle somebody 1001 01:03:26,103 --> 01:03:29,206 to get out of a submission in mixed martial arts. 1002 01:03:29,940 --> 01:03:31,441 Like, she was trying to pitch that 1003 01:03:31,475 --> 01:03:32,342 because she, like, 1004 01:03:33,577 --> 01:03:34,611 looked it up in all the rules and everything. 1005 01:03:36,046 --> 01:03:39,549 But if you tickle a guy in the middle of that ring 1006 01:03:39,583 --> 01:03:40,784 to get out of a submission, 1007 01:03:40,817 --> 01:03:43,954 you might step out of the cage and get punched in the face. 1008 01:03:44,454 --> 01:03:49,426 Like, never in a million years out of all my fights 1009 01:03:49,459 --> 01:03:52,096 would I ever try to tickle somebody 1010 01:03:52,129 --> 01:03:55,599 to get out of a submission. Fuck, no! 1011 01:03:55,632 --> 01:03:58,969 (crowd shouting) 1012 01:04:00,604 --> 01:04:02,973 (shouting continues) 1013 01:04:09,914 --> 01:04:11,215 (referee shouts) 1014 01:04:12,983 --> 01:04:14,318 David: As an ex-fighter, 1015 01:04:14,351 --> 01:04:18,022 Jordan was paid to recruit tickling talent in the town. 1016 01:04:18,055 --> 01:04:22,059 He's the only one in Muskegon prepared to appear on camera. 1017 01:04:23,127 --> 01:04:29,399 She offered my one buddy a 2014 Chevy Cruze and $30,000. 1018 01:04:29,699 --> 01:04:32,102 - What? What for? To tickle? - Yeah. 1019 01:04:32,136 --> 01:04:35,505 Just 'cause, like, she liked him. 1020 01:04:35,539 --> 01:04:36,606 Yeah, right. She... He was a favorite. 1021 01:04:36,974 --> 01:04:38,242 - Like, yeah. - Yeah. 1022 01:04:38,275 --> 01:04:40,945 Asians and redheads are what they call premiums. 1023 01:04:40,978 --> 01:04:43,347 If you get those, like, she gives you bonuses. 1024 01:04:44,014 --> 01:04:45,983 I'm Jordan Schillaci, and this is CET. 1025 01:04:46,016 --> 01:04:48,185 Uh, we're gonna be having a discussion, 1026 01:04:48,218 --> 01:04:51,088 more of a debate today about whether tickling 1027 01:04:51,121 --> 01:04:54,291 is effective in a combat situation. 1028 01:04:58,428 --> 01:05:00,430 We ended up setting up a tickle cell. Like, 1029 01:05:00,597 --> 01:05:01,698 where you get guys to come in, 1030 01:05:01,731 --> 01:05:04,601 "We'll pay you and you pay them to audition." 1031 01:05:04,634 --> 01:05:07,504 (laughs) No! 1032 01:05:10,074 --> 01:05:12,476 So we'd choose a hotel, nothing fancy, 1033 01:05:12,509 --> 01:05:16,546 and, uh, the guys would come in and hang out, you know, 1034 01:05:16,580 --> 01:05:21,185 smoke, drink, eat pizza, fuckin', and we'd hurry up 1035 01:05:21,218 --> 01:05:24,688 and run through, you know, five, six, seven guys. 1036 01:05:24,721 --> 01:05:29,559 (both laugh and speak indistinctly) 1037 01:05:29,593 --> 01:05:32,696 So you're... You were looking after the tickle cell in Muskegon? 1038 01:05:32,729 --> 01:05:35,065 Yeah, they have them set up all over the US. 1039 01:05:35,099 --> 01:05:39,003 Ohio, Michigan, Florida, New York. 1040 01:05:39,036 --> 01:05:41,005 - I mean, they're everywhere. - Right. 1041 01:05:41,038 --> 01:05:43,140 - And they're all for Jane? - Yeah. 1042 01:05:43,540 --> 01:05:45,075 Fuckin' hell. 1043 01:05:45,709 --> 01:05:49,113 (laughing) 1044 01:05:50,614 --> 01:05:52,316 Jordan: Well, that's where a lot of people started 1045 01:05:52,349 --> 01:05:54,184 getting really really upset, man. 1046 01:05:54,218 --> 01:05:55,352 Because all of sudden these videos 1047 01:05:56,620 --> 01:05:57,787 that are supposed to be just auditions were on YouTube, 1048 01:05:57,821 --> 01:06:00,457 Vimeo, and every other site you could imagine. 1049 01:06:00,490 --> 01:06:03,160 - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Nobody was okay with that. 1050 01:06:05,462 --> 01:06:06,730 One of the guys, Brodie, 1051 01:06:06,763 --> 01:06:10,267 like, his family was very upset with him. It was all over. 1052 01:06:10,300 --> 01:06:13,037 Like, people just picked on him and picked on him. 1053 01:06:13,537 --> 01:06:16,640 You know, he was underage, still in school. 1054 01:06:17,074 --> 01:06:19,276 And it wasn't supposed to go out on the Internet. 1055 01:06:19,309 --> 01:06:22,146 It wasn't supposed to be put up, and, uh, 1056 01:06:22,179 --> 01:06:26,016 you know, that just kind of sucked. 1057 01:06:26,050 --> 01:06:28,185 Because, like I said, it took Brodie... 1058 01:06:28,218 --> 01:06:29,619 it hit one of the hardest. 1059 01:06:29,653 --> 01:06:31,221 Like, this whole situation 1060 01:06:31,255 --> 01:06:33,523 and then being underage and his parents. 1061 01:06:33,557 --> 01:06:36,060 Who do you have to turn to? Who are you going to attack? 1062 01:06:36,093 --> 01:06:39,496 No... Jane O'Brien's a ghost. Nobody knows who it is. 1063 01:06:41,665 --> 01:06:43,367 Jordan: Cody-bear, no. 1064 01:06:44,234 --> 01:06:46,770 This is Colton, this is my nephew. 1065 01:06:46,803 --> 01:06:48,605 - David: Hey, man. - Colton, how old are you? 1066 01:06:49,639 --> 01:06:51,007 How old are you? 1067 01:06:51,141 --> 01:06:52,509 - Three. - You're three? 1068 01:06:52,542 --> 01:06:54,211 You're three? All right. 1069 01:06:54,778 --> 01:06:57,047 - I'm David. - I'm Phil. How are you doing? 1070 01:06:57,081 --> 01:06:58,382 It's nice to meet you, sir. 1071 01:06:59,283 --> 01:07:01,785 I was really, really reluctant 1072 01:07:01,818 --> 01:07:02,986 when Jordan started talking about this. 1073 01:07:03,019 --> 01:07:06,523 And he's like, "This lady seems straight and legit, Mom." 1074 01:07:06,556 --> 01:07:10,127 I'm like, you know, "These... these boys are young." 1075 01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:13,563 It's easy to believe, but when you're an old mom, 1076 01:07:14,098 --> 01:07:16,800 you're a little more leery for the boys, and, 1077 01:07:16,833 --> 01:07:20,070 I was very leery right from get-go 1078 01:07:20,104 --> 01:07:22,172 that the boys were gonna get into trouble 1079 01:07:22,206 --> 01:07:24,208 and this was not legit. 1080 01:07:32,582 --> 01:07:33,950 (dog barks in distance) 1081 01:07:33,983 --> 01:07:36,286 Jordan: She has all the money in the world, it seems like, 1082 01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:38,488 whoever it is, to be able to do this. 1083 01:07:38,522 --> 01:07:42,192 But they're waiting for that day that you rely 1084 01:07:42,726 --> 01:07:44,794 on that as a sole income. 1085 01:07:45,262 --> 01:07:47,297 That was her big, I think, power trip. 1086 01:07:47,331 --> 01:07:51,168 She waited until a bunch of us relied on that income 1087 01:07:51,201 --> 01:07:53,570 Because that was our only source of income. 1088 01:07:53,603 --> 01:07:55,439 We'd been doing it for so long, we didn't think... 1089 01:07:55,472 --> 01:07:58,275 She waited until she had complete control, 1090 01:07:58,308 --> 01:08:00,644 basically, over your situation, 1091 01:08:00,910 --> 01:08:02,646 and that's when she wanted to yank that rug 1092 01:08:02,679 --> 01:08:04,348 right out from under you. 1093 01:08:08,918 --> 01:08:12,356 David: David D'Amato. Have you heard that name before? 1094 01:08:12,756 --> 01:08:14,491 In relation to all this stuff? 1095 01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,129 I am literally, like, trembling right now. 1096 01:08:19,163 --> 01:08:20,197 Are you actually shaking? 1097 01:08:21,398 --> 01:08:24,334 Yeah, I'm actually, like, shaking. Like, I'm not, like... 1098 01:08:24,368 --> 01:08:27,337 Like I said, like, from being from here, I don't take shit. 1099 01:08:27,371 --> 01:08:30,474 Like, if I met up with that guy, I'd punch him right out. 1100 01:08:30,507 --> 01:08:32,842 And when he woke up, he'd be strapped to a chair with a... 1101 01:08:32,876 --> 01:08:33,877 Like, I'd be like, 1102 01:08:34,878 --> 01:08:35,579 "Dude, you're telling me everything right now." 1103 01:08:42,652 --> 01:08:45,322 David: The tickling's still happening in this town. 1104 01:08:45,689 --> 01:08:47,624 Jordan: The money is endless. 1105 01:08:47,657 --> 01:08:51,161 I've never seen it stop coming and just flowing in. 1106 01:08:51,195 --> 01:08:52,862 And it's not just through Michigan and LA, 1107 01:08:52,896 --> 01:08:54,298 it's everywhere. 1108 01:08:54,764 --> 01:08:58,602 Like, England, Australia, Italy. 1109 01:08:58,635 --> 01:09:01,705 I mean, the money's still coming and going. 1110 01:09:06,243 --> 01:09:07,511 David: This tickling empire 1111 01:09:07,544 --> 01:09:10,280 is way bigger than we ever imagined. 1112 01:09:11,948 --> 01:09:15,285 We're going to New York to find David D'Amato. 1113 01:09:31,968 --> 01:09:34,604 (car horns honk) 1114 01:09:52,456 --> 01:09:56,526 I can feel the rich/bad aura. 1115 01:09:58,795 --> 01:10:01,965 David D'Amato's address is listed in Garden City, 1116 01:10:01,998 --> 01:10:04,568 an affluent suburb of Long Island. 1117 01:10:07,003 --> 01:10:09,673 He lives on the top floor of this building. 1118 01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:12,409 Lance: (over phone) Lance Roberts speaking. 1119 01:10:12,442 --> 01:10:14,244 David: Oh, hi. It's David speaking. 1120 01:10:14,278 --> 01:10:16,813 I just wanted to talk to David D'Amato. 1121 01:10:17,281 --> 01:10:19,983 Lance: Um, okay. I can't give you his phone number. 1122 01:10:20,016 --> 01:10:21,351 I really can't even give you any 1123 01:10:21,385 --> 01:10:23,320 personal information on him. 1124 01:10:23,620 --> 01:10:24,621 David: Okay. 1125 01:10:24,954 --> 01:10:26,055 Lance: Do you know him? 1126 01:10:26,089 --> 01:10:29,259 - Yes, I do. Yes. - You're a friend of his? 1127 01:10:29,293 --> 01:10:31,761 Um, I'm not a friend, no, but I've, um... 1128 01:10:31,795 --> 01:10:33,697 I've been trying to get in touch with him 1129 01:10:33,730 --> 01:10:35,265 but have been struggling. 1130 01:10:35,832 --> 01:10:36,900 Lance: Okay, what I do is, 1131 01:10:36,933 --> 01:10:38,768 I have a way of leaving him a message. 1132 01:10:39,636 --> 01:10:41,971 I can't guarantee that he's gonna call you back 1133 01:10:42,005 --> 01:10:43,239 if he doesn't know you. 1134 01:10:44,408 --> 01:10:46,009 - Okay, thank you so much. Bye. - You're welcome. 1135 01:10:46,042 --> 01:10:47,477 (line hangs up) 1136 01:10:51,648 --> 01:10:53,450 (wind whistles) 1137 01:10:53,483 --> 01:10:55,485 David: D'Amato never calls us back, 1138 01:10:55,519 --> 01:10:58,722 and we've got no other way to contact him directly. 1139 01:11:00,924 --> 01:11:02,426 So annoying. 1140 01:11:08,064 --> 01:11:10,400 It's all right. There's still tomorrow. 1141 01:11:10,867 --> 01:11:12,268 (elevator bell dings) 1142 01:11:13,870 --> 01:11:17,407 David: But that night we get a frustrating phone call. 1143 01:11:18,508 --> 01:11:21,077 My concern is that we can't do more or less anything 1144 01:11:21,110 --> 01:11:22,879 we have planned for the rest of the trip. 1145 01:11:24,381 --> 01:11:26,383 I know. It's, like, it's fuckin' insane. 1146 01:11:28,084 --> 01:11:29,419 Okay. Bye-bye. 1147 01:11:32,622 --> 01:11:35,625 David: All the threats are worrying our film's producer. 1148 01:11:35,659 --> 01:11:37,527 He doesn't want us to risk provoking 1149 01:11:37,561 --> 01:11:40,364 any further legal action from D'Amato. 1150 01:11:40,730 --> 01:11:41,465 So he's saying, 1151 01:11:42,599 --> 01:11:43,500 "Well, what if you do everything that you were gonna do, 1152 01:11:43,533 --> 01:11:45,602 except don't go and chase D'Amato down?" 1153 01:11:45,635 --> 01:11:47,404 And I'm like, "Well, anything we do 1154 01:11:47,437 --> 01:11:49,439 that lets D'Amato know we're looking into him again." 1155 01:11:49,473 --> 01:11:51,408 - Well, from now on in is that. - Yeah, literally. 1156 01:11:51,441 --> 01:11:54,378 So he says, "Well, maybe we cut the thing short, then. 1157 01:11:54,944 --> 01:11:56,446 Just go home." 1158 01:11:57,146 --> 01:11:59,383 I know it's like... It's fuckin' insane. 1159 01:12:09,426 --> 01:12:12,762 David: The next day we put chasing D'Amato on hold. 1160 01:12:15,965 --> 01:12:17,834 I want to know how on Earth 1161 01:12:17,867 --> 01:12:20,470 a former deputy principal pays for all this. 1162 01:12:20,870 --> 01:12:24,541 We can't find any sign he's earning money from the videos, 1163 01:12:24,574 --> 01:12:27,076 but he's spending lots of money making them. 1164 01:12:27,644 --> 01:12:31,047 He's flying up to ten people into LA almost every month 1165 01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:33,082 from all over the world, 1166 01:12:33,116 --> 01:12:34,851 Putting them up in a nice hotel, 1167 01:12:34,884 --> 01:12:37,053 paying them thousands in cash. 1168 01:12:37,587 --> 01:12:39,389 And that's not even taking into account 1169 01:12:39,423 --> 01:12:40,824 the cost of running tickle cells, 1170 01:12:40,857 --> 01:12:42,692 like the one in Muskegon. 1171 01:12:44,628 --> 01:12:46,763 Both David's parents are now deceased, 1172 01:12:46,796 --> 01:12:49,833 but his father's law firm is one of Wall Street's biggest. 1173 01:12:50,567 --> 01:12:52,836 Maybe David is reaping the benefits 1174 01:12:52,869 --> 01:12:54,704 of his father's empire. 1175 01:12:54,738 --> 01:12:56,840 (phone line rings) 1176 01:12:56,873 --> 01:12:58,442 Woman: (over phone) D'Amato & Lynch. 1177 01:12:58,475 --> 01:13:02,446 Oh, hi. I just had an inquiry, um, 1178 01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,882 about the relationship with, uh, um, 1179 01:13:05,915 --> 01:13:10,654 David D'Amato with the company, the son of George D'Amato. 1180 01:13:10,687 --> 01:13:12,789 Is there someone I could talk to about this? 1181 01:13:14,057 --> 01:13:18,528 No, I'm sorry. And Mr. D'Amato has been gone for a long time. 1182 01:13:18,828 --> 01:13:24,501 Yeah, yeah. I'm looking into the background to his son, David. 1183 01:13:24,534 --> 01:13:26,436 And I'm just trying to figure out whether he's got 1184 01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:29,506 any financial relationship with the company still. 1185 01:13:29,539 --> 01:13:33,009 No, I... I really don't know. I'm sorry, I can't help you. 1186 01:13:33,042 --> 01:13:37,080 Is there someone I could talk to at D'Amato & Lynch to find out? 1187 01:13:37,914 --> 01:13:41,551 Mm. Not that I believe, no. I'm sorry. 1188 01:13:41,585 --> 01:13:44,020 Okay, but there must be a way to find out, surely? 1189 01:13:44,554 --> 01:13:48,658 - Um, not here. Thank you. - (line hangs up) 1190 01:14:00,737 --> 01:14:04,207 Woman: I haven't seen David in quite a few years. 1191 01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:05,909 I have no knowledge of him now. 1192 01:14:06,576 --> 01:14:09,045 Not in many years have I had any contact with him, 1193 01:14:09,078 --> 01:14:11,548 so I really couldn't give you any information. 1194 01:14:11,581 --> 01:14:14,584 David: Yeah, he's been pretty aggressive towards me, 1195 01:14:14,618 --> 01:14:17,086 so I'm just trying to figure out what his motivations are-- 1196 01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:19,689 Woman: Get away from him, that's all I can tell you. 1197 01:14:20,289 --> 01:14:23,727 - David: Really? - Yeah. Stay away from him. 1198 01:14:34,804 --> 01:14:36,806 David: This was every conversation I had 1199 01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:40,610 with anyone even remotely related to David D'Amato. 1200 01:14:40,644 --> 01:14:43,780 "I can't tell you anything, but stay away." 1201 01:14:43,813 --> 01:14:46,115 But all I want to do is the opposite. 1202 01:14:46,149 --> 01:14:49,953 Someone has to confront this bully, lawsuits or not. 1203 01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:08,004 Dylan: Okay. So, this is the car we're looking for. 1204 01:15:08,037 --> 01:15:11,775 It's a Mercedes Benz ML430. 1205 01:15:17,180 --> 01:15:20,684 David: David D'Amato has gone out of his way to avoid us. 1206 01:15:20,717 --> 01:15:23,653 We figure if we wait outside his apartment long enough, 1207 01:15:23,687 --> 01:15:25,789 eventually he'll have to leave. 1208 01:15:26,656 --> 01:15:28,925 Dylan: So, that's a Chevrolet. 1209 01:15:29,926 --> 01:15:31,561 Oh, hang on a second, what's this? 1210 01:15:31,595 --> 01:15:32,796 What's this? What's this? 1211 01:15:33,329 --> 01:15:35,064 Okay, there's a car there. I can see it. 1212 01:15:35,098 --> 01:15:37,533 Now, just in the edge. Hang on. 1213 01:15:43,239 --> 01:15:44,841 David: A Grand Cherokee. 1214 01:15:46,710 --> 01:15:47,911 Well, maybe just a Cherokee. 1215 01:15:47,944 --> 01:15:49,979 But it's certainly not a Mercedes. 1216 01:15:55,852 --> 01:15:59,022 - David: What's the time? - Dylan: 2:44. 1217 01:15:59,055 --> 01:16:02,091 So we've been here for, like, four hours? 1218 01:16:06,029 --> 01:16:09,032 David: We've been waiting like this for days. 1219 01:16:10,233 --> 01:16:11,234 Dylan: Come on. 1220 01:16:12,401 --> 01:16:14,638 David: And it seems like he'll never come out. 1221 01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:18,174 Dylan: Okay. Let me just check. It's also... 1222 01:16:18,207 --> 01:16:23,713 It is the right type of car. It's got white plates. 1223 01:16:24,147 --> 01:16:25,982 Hang on. Hang on. Okay. 1224 01:16:27,751 --> 01:16:29,619 It's him. It's him. It's him. It's him. 1225 01:16:32,722 --> 01:16:34,758 He's coming out. Just wait here. 1226 01:16:34,791 --> 01:16:37,093 Just sit here. All right, stay cool. 1227 01:16:38,194 --> 01:16:39,729 Okay, I'm gonna... 1228 01:16:46,703 --> 01:16:48,004 Okay, he's up here. 1229 01:16:55,712 --> 01:16:57,647 He's in the right-hand... Is he in the left-hand lane? 1230 01:16:57,681 --> 01:16:59,015 David: Yeah. 1231 01:17:00,016 --> 01:17:01,350 (Dylan sighs) 1232 01:17:02,018 --> 01:17:03,352 He hasn't turned right. He's in... 1233 01:17:03,386 --> 01:17:04,287 Whoa! You're one car behind him. 1234 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:07,657 You're right in his... In his mirror now. 1235 01:17:09,058 --> 01:17:11,895 (Dylan pants) 1236 01:17:23,372 --> 01:17:25,441 (Dylan pants) 1237 01:17:25,474 --> 01:17:28,177 - I'm breathing heavily. - Yeah, same. 1238 01:17:29,345 --> 01:17:31,915 Dylan: Okay. Okay. It's cool. 1239 01:17:31,948 --> 01:17:33,883 We're right behind him now, so back off a bit, 1240 01:17:33,917 --> 01:17:35,719 so we're not gonna be too close. 1241 01:17:37,453 --> 01:17:39,155 (sighs) Okay. 1242 01:17:40,423 --> 01:17:42,826 Just stay... Stay back. Stay back, David. 1243 01:17:43,059 --> 01:17:44,794 We're gonna have to stop right behind him now. 1244 01:17:44,828 --> 01:17:46,930 You might have to take the camera off the tripod, Dom. 1245 01:17:47,931 --> 01:17:49,899 David: Yeah, camera off tripod, please. 1246 01:17:51,434 --> 01:17:52,836 Dylan: Starbucks? Okay, this is perfect. 1247 01:17:52,869 --> 01:17:54,103 David: Okay. He'll be a while. 1248 01:17:55,371 --> 01:17:57,841 Okay. I'm just gonna go and have conversation when he comes out. 1249 01:17:59,843 --> 01:18:01,911 You've... I've got my phone if you need me. 1250 01:18:01,945 --> 01:18:03,112 Okay. 1251 01:18:15,058 --> 01:18:17,126 David: I'm about to meet this man who's been 1252 01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:18,461 such a threatening figure 1253 01:18:18,494 --> 01:18:21,931 in so many lives, including my own, 1254 01:18:23,432 --> 01:18:26,870 and I have simply no idea what to expect. 1255 01:18:51,861 --> 01:18:55,031 - Dylan: He's coming out. - David: Mr. D'Amato. 1256 01:18:55,564 --> 01:18:58,334 - Hi, it's Dave Farrier. - D'Amato: 1257 01:18:58,367 --> 01:19:00,103 David: Hey, how are you? 1258 01:19:01,304 --> 01:19:03,072 D'Amato: 1259 01:19:03,106 --> 01:19:06,209 David: I just wanted to talk to you briefly. 1260 01:19:07,143 --> 01:19:08,311 If I could. 1261 01:19:09,378 --> 01:19:12,148 Because I was just... I'm just worried about... 1262 01:19:15,118 --> 01:19:16,820 the legal letters you've sent me, 1263 01:19:16,853 --> 01:19:18,287 and I just wanted to know if we could 1264 01:19:18,321 --> 01:19:20,156 just talk about it face-to-face. 1265 01:19:20,189 --> 01:19:23,092 D'Amato: 1266 01:19:23,126 --> 01:19:24,360 David: Is there? 1267 01:19:24,393 --> 01:19:27,997 D'Amato: 1268 01:19:34,904 --> 01:19:37,874 I'm on a journalism visa, so I'm, I'm okay to be here. 1269 01:19:37,907 --> 01:19:39,943 I'm okay to be here. But I just... 1270 01:19:41,911 --> 01:19:43,880 Could we just talk a little bit about-- 1271 01:19:44,547 --> 01:19:46,916 I just wanted to find out what's going on. 1272 01:19:47,116 --> 01:19:48,184 D'Amato: 1273 01:19:48,217 --> 01:19:51,955 Because the last heard I was gonna be in a US court 1274 01:19:51,988 --> 01:19:53,022 and a New Zealand court, 1275 01:19:54,223 --> 01:19:56,025 And I really just wanted to sort this out face-to-face. 1276 01:19:56,059 --> 01:19:57,060 D'Amato: 1277 01:19:57,093 --> 01:19:58,494 And I just want to sort of... 1278 01:19:58,527 --> 01:20:00,029 I mean, I'm not here to antagonize. 1279 01:20:00,063 --> 01:20:02,531 I just genuinely want to be able to help out. 1280 01:20:02,565 --> 01:20:04,934 D'Amato: 1281 01:20:04,968 --> 01:20:06,802 Well, you did say you were gonna sue me. 1282 01:20:07,036 --> 01:20:09,105 and I just wanna sort this issue out. 1283 01:20:09,138 --> 01:20:10,306 (engine starts) 1284 01:20:10,339 --> 01:20:12,041 D'Amato: 1285 01:20:12,075 --> 01:20:14,210 Could you contact me if possible? 1286 01:20:38,567 --> 01:20:40,870 David: I went away feeling numb. 1287 01:20:41,104 --> 01:20:44,908 D'Amato was calm, going instantly to legal threats, 1288 01:20:45,274 --> 01:20:49,178 which is what he's always done, I suppose, as Terri, 1289 01:20:49,545 --> 01:20:51,080 as Jane, 1290 01:20:51,514 --> 01:20:52,982 as himself. 1291 01:20:59,122 --> 01:21:02,491 But after all this, I still couldn't help but wonder 1292 01:21:02,525 --> 01:21:04,360 were we totally certain that D'Amato 1293 01:21:04,393 --> 01:21:08,064 really was Jane and Debbie? Could we be wrong? 1294 01:21:09,065 --> 01:21:11,467 So we went back to where it all started, 1295 01:21:11,500 --> 01:21:13,069 those 300 domain names 1296 01:21:13,102 --> 01:21:15,972 connected to the Nederdietsen group. 1297 01:21:18,274 --> 01:21:21,177 And that's when things went a little crazy. 1298 01:21:21,544 --> 01:21:23,046 On one of those domain names 1299 01:21:23,079 --> 01:21:25,014 there was just a directory listing, 1300 01:21:25,281 --> 01:21:28,351 Including a folder called "My Documents". 1301 01:21:31,687 --> 01:21:33,389 It looks like D'Amato has accidently 1302 01:21:33,422 --> 01:21:36,459 made hundreds of his private files public 1303 01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:38,294 on the Internet. 1304 01:21:43,967 --> 01:21:45,601 There's D'Amato's signature 1305 01:21:45,634 --> 01:21:48,504 on a Nederdietsen registration form. 1306 01:21:51,307 --> 01:21:54,377 There's also a contract with the investigation company 1307 01:21:54,410 --> 01:21:56,112 he hired to look into us. 1308 01:21:56,445 --> 01:21:58,214 The address is exactly the same 1309 01:21:58,247 --> 01:22:00,483 as the address used by Jane O'Brien Media 1310 01:22:00,516 --> 01:22:03,919 when booking rooms at the Hilton in New Zealand. 1311 01:22:06,722 --> 01:22:08,691 Then there are documents and signatures 1312 01:22:08,724 --> 01:22:11,460 for Debbie Kuhn and Jane O'Brien... 1313 01:22:13,296 --> 01:22:16,165 who's also got her own credit card. 1314 01:22:17,166 --> 01:22:18,667 And it turns out that D'Amato 1315 01:22:18,701 --> 01:22:21,037 did finally get that law degree, 1316 01:22:21,070 --> 01:22:24,173 from Hofstra University in 2011. 1317 01:22:26,142 --> 01:22:29,178 He's also been telling the boys to enter the United States 1318 01:22:29,212 --> 01:22:32,348 on a tourist visa, even though they're working. 1319 01:22:33,749 --> 01:22:35,284 And it's finally clear to me 1320 01:22:35,318 --> 01:22:37,953 how he funds his tickling empire. 1321 01:22:39,755 --> 01:22:41,024 As of late 2012, 1322 01:22:41,057 --> 01:22:45,094 he had almost six million in his checking account. 1323 01:22:46,062 --> 01:22:48,731 And his living expenses were being paid by a trust 1324 01:22:48,764 --> 01:22:51,000 established by his father. 1325 01:22:54,203 --> 01:22:57,106 He also inherited millions from his mother's estate 1326 01:22:57,140 --> 01:22:59,275 when she died in 2014. 1327 01:23:01,644 --> 01:23:03,979 It's all family money. 1328 01:23:07,250 --> 01:23:09,252 There are also lots of emails 1329 01:23:09,285 --> 01:23:12,055 sent from Jane O'Brien's legal department. 1330 01:23:13,122 --> 01:23:16,792 With this in mind, we call in to see Romeo Salta, 1331 01:23:16,825 --> 01:23:19,262 The lawyer hired by Jane O'Brien Media 1332 01:23:19,295 --> 01:23:21,730 who's been sending us all the legal threats. 1333 01:23:22,465 --> 01:23:25,068 We want to ask him about the correspondence 1334 01:23:25,101 --> 01:23:26,635 his office has sent us. 1335 01:23:27,203 --> 01:23:29,472 David: But I just thought you'd be curious to see... 1336 01:23:29,838 --> 01:23:32,241 things been issued in LA County Court, 1337 01:23:32,275 --> 01:23:34,177 that's signed off here with your name. 1338 01:23:34,510 --> 01:23:37,513 There's another example of that with that email address. 1339 01:23:37,546 --> 01:23:38,281 Romeo: Yeah. 1340 01:23:39,748 --> 01:23:40,849 To that, as opposed to you. I mean, we got the one from you originally, 1341 01:23:40,883 --> 01:23:42,785 which we... It's fine. We don't need to talk about that. 1342 01:23:42,818 --> 01:23:44,787 It's very simple. I only sent one. 1343 01:23:44,820 --> 01:23:46,089 Dylan: Yeah. 1344 01:23:46,122 --> 01:23:47,190 David: Yeah. 1345 01:23:47,223 --> 01:23:48,591 - There's your answer. - Yeah. 1346 01:23:50,193 --> 01:23:52,095 Romeo: I'll see what I can do to make those stop. 1347 01:23:52,128 --> 01:23:53,296 Have they stopped? 1348 01:23:54,497 --> 01:23:55,131 Dylan: Uh, we haven't heard anything for a little while. 1349 01:23:55,164 --> 01:23:55,998 They're listing your address 1350 01:23:56,031 --> 01:23:58,067 as their corporate headquarters, though. 1351 01:23:59,835 --> 01:24:01,670 - My address? - Yeah, if you look at... 1352 01:24:01,704 --> 01:24:02,771 David: Your office. 1353 01:24:02,805 --> 01:24:04,039 Dylan: janeobrienmedia.com, 1354 01:24:05,174 --> 01:24:06,442 your address is listed as their corporate headquarters. 1355 01:24:06,742 --> 01:24:08,544 (sighs) Yeah, but it's not my-- 1356 01:24:08,577 --> 01:24:10,279 Dylan: No, no. On their website at the bottom. 1357 01:24:10,313 --> 01:24:12,081 Romeo: But it's not, um... 1358 01:24:12,381 --> 01:24:13,816 Dylan: I don't know if it's... 1359 01:24:13,849 --> 01:24:15,184 It says "Office of Corporate Counsel 1360 01:24:15,218 --> 01:24:16,585 and New York Headquarters." 1361 01:24:16,619 --> 01:24:17,820 Romeo: Well, that's my address. 1362 01:24:17,853 --> 01:24:19,054 David: Yeah. 1363 01:24:20,123 --> 01:24:22,658 - But it's not their... - It's crazy. But it's... 1364 01:24:22,691 --> 01:24:25,194 Um, I mean, is this weird to you? 1365 01:24:25,228 --> 01:24:26,562 That this person has taken on-- 1366 01:24:26,595 --> 01:24:28,063 It is. Of course, it's weird. 1367 01:24:33,302 --> 01:24:35,671 David: Almost every legal letter we'd received from 1368 01:24:35,704 --> 01:24:36,772 from Salta was fake. 1369 01:24:37,373 --> 01:24:40,109 Like so many things connected to D'Amato, 1370 01:24:40,143 --> 01:24:41,610 they were all just lies, 1371 01:24:42,211 --> 01:24:45,448 lies to support his addiction to tickling videos. 1372 01:24:48,584 --> 01:24:52,255 I started this journey curious about a bizarre sport 1373 01:24:52,288 --> 01:24:54,623 called competitive endurance tickling, 1374 01:24:55,291 --> 01:24:58,494 but I now think this was never even about tickling. 1375 01:25:01,364 --> 01:25:04,700 This is about power, control and harassment. 1376 01:25:05,234 --> 01:25:07,336 It's about one person's twistedness 1377 01:25:07,370 --> 01:25:09,405 and how far that can go. 1378 01:25:09,438 --> 01:25:12,575 One person who's managed to shelter himself with money 1379 01:25:12,608 --> 01:25:14,743 to keep his obsession going. 1380 01:25:15,378 --> 01:25:17,613 But now it's his life exposed. 1381 01:25:17,846 --> 01:25:20,649 For once, it's him on camera. 1382 01:25:26,189 --> 01:25:27,356 Before we leave America, 1383 01:25:27,390 --> 01:25:30,426 there's one last phone call I want to make. 1384 01:25:30,459 --> 01:25:32,528 It's a name we found in the documents, 1385 01:25:32,561 --> 01:25:36,399 one of David D'Amato's last surviving family members. 1386 01:25:36,765 --> 01:25:37,900 (phone line rings) 1387 01:25:37,933 --> 01:25:39,202 Dorothy: Hello? 1388 01:25:39,235 --> 01:25:42,171 - Oh, hi. Is that Dorothy? - Yes. 1389 01:25:42,205 --> 01:25:44,240 Oh, hi. My name's David Farrier, 1390 01:25:44,273 --> 01:25:47,343 I'm a journalist from New Zealand. How are you? 1391 01:25:47,743 --> 01:25:49,245 - Okay. - Yeah, good. 1392 01:25:49,278 --> 01:25:50,813 Hey, sorry, it's probably a bit of a strange call 1393 01:25:50,846 --> 01:25:51,847 to receive out of the blue, 1394 01:25:52,881 --> 01:25:56,685 but I'm doing a story about, uh, David D'Amato. 1395 01:25:58,887 --> 01:26:02,425 - Oh, in what way? - Um... 1396 01:26:03,559 --> 01:26:05,494 He's been... It's the... 1397 01:26:05,528 --> 01:26:08,163 He's sort of back to the tickling stuff again. 1398 01:26:08,464 --> 01:26:09,665 Oh, he is? 1399 01:26:09,698 --> 01:26:13,168 - Yeah, he is. - Oh, God! 1400 01:26:13,969 --> 01:26:16,439 Well, I will tell you that, 1401 01:26:16,472 --> 01:26:20,376 um, I have no contact with him at all. 1402 01:26:21,510 --> 01:26:24,213 I mean, did you think all this had sort of come to an end? 1403 01:26:24,613 --> 01:26:26,682 I did think, of course, it came to an end, 1404 01:26:26,715 --> 01:26:30,486 because he served time, which I'm sure you know. 1405 01:26:30,519 --> 01:26:31,287 Mm. 1406 01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:33,756 But I don't understand, um... 1407 01:26:36,292 --> 01:26:39,362 I don't understand why he went back to doing this. 1408 01:26:40,663 --> 01:26:44,400 I'm, like, in shock. How long has he been doing this? 1409 01:26:46,001 --> 01:26:47,736 It's never stopped. 1410 01:26:52,408 --> 01:26:54,843 I think he has a split personality. 1411 01:26:54,877 --> 01:26:58,614 He's like that fine line between genius and insanity. 1412 01:27:01,384 --> 01:27:05,288 I don't know if he's gay or he's asexual, 1413 01:27:05,321 --> 01:27:08,691 but he's never had a girlfriend that I ever knew of. 1414 01:27:10,359 --> 01:27:12,695 I asked my husband once, um, 1415 01:27:12,728 --> 01:27:15,831 if he would be upset if he found out he was gay. 1416 01:27:15,864 --> 01:27:20,836 And he said that he would be upset but he would get over it. 1417 01:27:20,869 --> 01:27:22,505 But he was an only child, 1418 01:27:22,538 --> 01:27:25,541 and, you know, he wanted grandchildren. 1419 01:27:28,043 --> 01:27:31,580 He had a very, very strange childhood. 1420 01:27:32,448 --> 01:27:36,685 The kids used to make fun of him all the time. 1421 01:27:36,719 --> 01:27:39,422 And she used to... She... His mother. 1422 01:27:39,455 --> 01:27:41,657 He was very close to his mother. 1423 01:27:42,090 --> 01:27:44,627 And his mother was very protective of him. 1424 01:27:44,660 --> 01:27:49,865 She never let him ride a bike or go skiing or do anything 1425 01:27:49,898 --> 01:27:52,535 because she was always afraid that he would get hurt. 1426 01:27:53,369 --> 01:27:54,437 And from what I understand, 1427 01:27:54,470 --> 01:27:56,505 the kids used to come around the house, 1428 01:27:56,539 --> 01:27:58,040 and they used to make fun of him. 1429 01:27:58,073 --> 01:28:01,744 And once they locked him in a locker in school. 1430 01:28:05,581 --> 01:28:07,450 And, you know, he was a teacher... 1431 01:28:08,551 --> 01:28:10,553 and they threw him out of school. 1432 01:28:10,953 --> 01:28:12,955 You know, I was afraid of him, 1433 01:28:13,556 --> 01:28:18,527 because I'm alone and, um... Yeah, I was afraid of him. 1434 01:28:18,561 --> 01:28:21,830 So, you know, I'm afraid of him.