1
00:00:06,910 --> 00:00:10,410
ALICE: I feel like something bad
is gonna happen to me.
2
00:00:12,148 --> 00:00:15,481
I feel like something bad
has happened.
3
00:00:15,552 --> 00:00:18,568
It hasn't reached me yet,
but it's on its way.
4
00:00:30,617 --> 00:00:32,065
{\an8}JASON: I don't know
why it's important.
5
00:00:32,135 --> 00:00:35,401
{\an8}It's like how it helps people,
like, dealing with her loss,
6
00:00:35,471 --> 00:00:38,571
like making up stories
about ghosts or whatever.
7
00:00:50,620 --> 00:00:53,136
KIM: Alice kept secrets.
8
00:00:53,206 --> 00:00:56,957
She kept the fact
she kept secrets a secret.
9
00:01:06,469 --> 00:01:08,468
JUNE: It's hard for some people
to understand,
10
00:01:08,538 --> 00:01:11,070
but you have to believe
you're to blame
11
00:01:11,140 --> 00:01:13,773
or else there's
nothing to hold on to.
12
00:01:46,609 --> 00:01:48,325
(STATIC CRACKLING)
13
00:01:48,395 --> 00:01:50,527
MAN OVER PHONE: Police
and emergency service.
14
00:01:50,596 --> 00:01:52,795
JUNE ON PHONE: (DISTORTED) My daughter,
Alice, has gone missing. We need some...
15
00:01:52,865 --> 00:01:54,064
How long ago did you last...
16
00:01:54,134 --> 00:01:56,566
She was in the dam...
Looked everywhere.
17
00:01:56,636 --> 00:02:00,220
(STATIC CRACKLING)
18
00:02:00,290 --> 00:02:01,621
Do you know where you are?
19
00:02:01,691 --> 00:02:03,640
We're on the other
side of the dam.
20
00:02:03,710 --> 00:02:05,325
She's been missing
for quite a few...
21
00:02:05,394 --> 00:02:06,376
Okay.
22
00:02:06,446 --> 00:02:08,195
Please send someone now.
23
00:02:08,264 --> 00:02:10,130
I need you to talk
to me for a second.
24
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:11,847
(CRYING) We don't know
where she is.
25
00:02:11,917 --> 00:02:13,916
Hello, June, can you hear me?
26
00:02:24,614 --> 00:02:25,946
{\an8}RICHARD BROOKS ON TV:
The normally tranquil setting
27
00:02:25,965 --> 00:02:28,398
{\an8}of Ararat's Norval Dam
was shattered yesterday
28
00:02:28,518 --> 00:02:31,101
{\an8}with the disappearance
of 16-year-old Alice Palmer
29
00:02:31,170 --> 00:02:32,835
{\an8}while picnicking
with her family.
30
00:02:32,905 --> 00:02:37,140
{\an8}We received a call around
6:00 p.m. tonight of a missing girl,
31
00:02:37,210 --> 00:02:39,125
and on discovering the nature
of the situation
32
00:02:39,195 --> 00:02:41,794
we called in the search-and-rescue
divers from Melbourne.
33
00:02:41,865 --> 00:02:45,365
Police divers entered the water
around 10:00 with SES volunteers
34
00:02:45,434 --> 00:02:47,000
joining a fruitless search...
35
00:02:47,070 --> 00:02:50,871
RUSSELL: Matt and Ali had swum
out to the middle of the dam.
36
00:02:50,940 --> 00:02:55,291
I could see them from where
I was sitting at the picnic area.
37
00:02:55,361 --> 00:02:57,594
MATTHEW: I think we'd been
in the water for about 15 minutes,
38
00:02:57,663 --> 00:03:01,064
and I said that I was
gonna get out. It was cold.
39
00:03:02,401 --> 00:03:05,318
{\an8}So, I started swimming back
and she didn't come out with me,
40
00:03:05,388 --> 00:03:08,020
{\an8}so I thought she's
gonna stay in there.
41
00:03:09,292 --> 00:03:11,291
{\an8}I remember Matty got out,
42
00:03:12,996 --> 00:03:17,864
{\an8}and a few minutes later,
I heard him ask where was Alice.
43
00:03:21,771 --> 00:03:26,439
So, I stood up and looked
out across the dam,
44
00:03:26,509 --> 00:03:29,709
and the water was
completely still.
45
00:03:31,547 --> 00:03:34,447
So I called out.
46
00:03:34,517 --> 00:03:38,752
JUNE: I looked out over the water
to see if I could see her.
47
00:03:41,724 --> 00:03:45,057
{\an8}And both the boys
had kind of checked,
48
00:03:45,127 --> 00:03:49,362
{\an8}you know, the bush land behind.
49
00:03:49,432 --> 00:03:53,149
I could see Alice's towel,
she'd left it on the ground,
50
00:03:54,787 --> 00:03:57,153
and she clearly hadn't
got out of the water
51
00:03:57,223 --> 00:04:01,224
because then, you know, she would have
picked up her towel, so...
52
00:04:02,762 --> 00:04:06,329
Yeah, that was the last time
that I saw her.
53
00:04:10,353 --> 00:04:12,152
{\an8}(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
54
00:04:14,858 --> 00:04:16,089
{\an8}(LAUGHS)
55
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,170
BROOKS: Police continue to hold
grave fears for 16-year-old Alice Palmer
56
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,073
{\an8}who disappeared while picnicking
with her family.
57
00:04:34,194 --> 00:04:35,458
{\an8}Police search-and-rescue
divers...
58
00:04:35,528 --> 00:04:37,376
{\an8}RUSSELL: We were
told to go home,
59
00:04:39,832 --> 00:04:43,149
and if the search-and-rescue
divers found anything
60
00:04:43,219 --> 00:04:45,284
then they'd let us
know immediately.
61
00:04:57,700 --> 00:05:00,016
JUNE: It felt very strange
in the car on the way home
62
00:05:00,019 --> 00:05:02,919
because there was
one empty seat.
63
00:05:02,989 --> 00:05:07,807
{\an8}One minute she was there
and then gone.
64
00:05:10,746 --> 00:05:13,546
{\an8}GEORGIE: I went back to stay
with the Palmers that night.
65
00:05:13,616 --> 00:05:17,316
{\an8}We were just mostly waiting,
mostly waiting for news.
66
00:05:19,889 --> 00:05:23,940
{\an8}For bad news.
There was that expectation.
67
00:05:24,010 --> 00:05:29,161
{\an8}We got a call from Russell
on his mobile about 9:00 at night.
68
00:05:29,231 --> 00:05:33,666
{\an8}And he said there'd been
an accident at the weir,
69
00:05:33,736 --> 00:05:36,335
and Alice had gone missing.
70
00:05:36,405 --> 00:05:40,807
So, we thought that
we better go to Ararat.
71
00:05:40,877 --> 00:05:46,263
I remember June was a bit funny
about seeing Iris,
72
00:05:46,332 --> 00:05:49,682
there was a strange
feeling between them.
73
00:05:49,752 --> 00:05:53,819
It felt a little strange
having my mother there.
74
00:05:55,024 --> 00:05:57,040
Mum and I, there for Alice,
75
00:05:58,861 --> 00:06:01,961
just didn't feel like
the right order of things.
76
00:06:04,334 --> 00:06:07,466
IRIS: It was an awful,
awful night.
77
00:06:07,536 --> 00:06:09,202
Worst night of our lives.
78
00:06:09,271 --> 00:06:10,503
Mmm-hmm.
79
00:06:14,259 --> 00:06:16,960
JUNE: I went into Alice's room
later that night
80
00:06:17,029 --> 00:06:23,633
and her phone went off a couple
of times, but I didn't answer it.
81
00:06:30,075 --> 00:06:33,676
I remember, the bed was made.
82
00:06:33,746 --> 00:06:36,813
I remember thinking
how neat everything looked.
83
00:06:51,013 --> 00:06:54,481
JASON: I got a call
from Alice's mum, June.
84
00:06:54,484 --> 00:06:58,034
{\an8}She'd said that Alice is missing
85
00:06:58,103 --> 00:07:00,537
{\an8}and presumed, like, she drowned
86
00:07:02,474 --> 00:07:04,207
and I didn't not believe her,
87
00:07:04,276 --> 00:07:08,611
but, I don't know, it was
kind of hard to take,
88
00:07:08,681 --> 00:07:12,482
so I actually called
Alice's mobile.
89
00:07:12,552 --> 00:07:13,717
I just...
90
00:07:16,272 --> 00:07:17,570
Maybe wanted to see if...
91
00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,406
Hope it was a joke or something,
I don't know.
92
00:07:20,476 --> 00:07:23,392
It was just a real shock.
93
00:07:25,198 --> 00:07:27,997
{\an8}Just didn't really
feel like it was real.
94
00:07:30,469 --> 00:07:32,368
Everything was
the same as always,
95
00:07:32,438 --> 00:07:35,337
but people were saying
Alice had drowned.
96
00:07:35,340 --> 00:07:39,241
INTERVIEWER: Are there any memories
from that night that stand out for you?
97
00:07:41,246 --> 00:07:43,630
I remember we had
the porch light on.
98
00:07:44,817 --> 00:07:47,216
Still do, actually,
just in case.
99
00:07:48,521 --> 00:07:50,119
And why is that?
100
00:07:59,131 --> 00:08:01,731
Just in case she comes home,
I guess.
101
00:08:06,505 --> 00:08:08,321
{\an8}(INAUDIBLE)
102
00:08:24,507 --> 00:08:26,139
{\an8}MAN: All right, get in.
103
00:08:29,845 --> 00:08:34,947
SANDY: The SES divers located
Alice's body at approximately 9:25 p.m.
104
00:08:35,017 --> 00:08:38,984
They used sonar to locate her.
And she'd drifted some way
105
00:08:39,055 --> 00:08:44,790
{\an8}and come to rest on a shelf at the bottom
of the storm water system in the dam.
106
00:08:44,860 --> 00:08:48,494
{\an8}Obviously contacted
the family immediately.
107
00:08:48,564 --> 00:08:51,531
RUSSELL: As soon as we were told
that they'd found the body,
108
00:08:51,601 --> 00:08:52,932
June and I went down to the dam.
109
00:08:53,002 --> 00:08:55,134
Georgie'd come over
to keep Matt company.
110
00:08:55,204 --> 00:08:58,438
It was all very
official and formal,
111
00:08:58,508 --> 00:09:00,240
and they asked me
to sign a statement
112
00:09:00,309 --> 00:09:01,908
of identification.
113
00:09:01,978 --> 00:09:03,843
June stayed in the car.
114
00:09:05,814 --> 00:09:07,947
And, you know, on reflection,
I think that was a mistake
115
00:09:08,017 --> 00:09:10,299
because she didn't
have any closure.
116
00:09:12,588 --> 00:09:16,723
JUNE: I just couldn't bring myself
to identify Alice's body.
117
00:09:17,826 --> 00:09:22,211
She'd been underwater
all that time and it...
118
00:09:22,281 --> 00:09:25,164
I guess it's not how I...
119
00:09:25,234 --> 00:09:29,051
I didn't want to
remember her in that way.
120
00:09:29,121 --> 00:09:34,673
I thought that was my responsibility
as Ali's dad, you know.
121
00:09:37,213 --> 00:09:39,212
That's what a father does.
122
00:09:59,018 --> 00:10:02,018
RUSSELL: The car stalled
on the way back from the dam.
123
00:10:02,088 --> 00:10:05,254
But the only gear I could
get it into was reverse.
124
00:10:05,324 --> 00:10:08,725
So, we drove back
into town in reverse.
125
00:10:09,962 --> 00:10:11,761
Which was either that or walk.
126
00:10:11,831 --> 00:10:14,764
And given everything
that had happened,
127
00:10:14,834 --> 00:10:17,233
seemed like the better
option, really.
128
00:10:28,698 --> 00:10:32,064
IRIS: The autopsy was performed
on the Monday, the 27th.
129
00:10:34,537 --> 00:10:40,089
Then the coroner released
the body on Tuesday, the 28th.
130
00:10:43,379 --> 00:10:48,614
It was very strange spending
Christmas Day with the family up there
131
00:10:48,684 --> 00:10:51,217
while Alice lay
alone in the morgue.
132
00:11:01,546 --> 00:11:06,065
I don't know, it was just like I hadn't
seen her for a week or anything, like...
133
00:11:06,135 --> 00:11:08,217
Yeah, it didn't feel real.
134
00:11:13,458 --> 00:11:16,325
JUNE: Death takes
everything eventually.
135
00:11:16,394 --> 00:11:19,061
It's the meanest, dumbest machine
there is, and it just keeps coming
136
00:11:19,131 --> 00:11:20,896
and it doesn't care.
137
00:11:23,152 --> 00:11:26,235
There's nothing else
to know about it, really.
138
00:11:28,841 --> 00:11:32,341
{\an8}It was a somber day for the family
and friends of Alice Palmer
139
00:11:32,410 --> 00:11:36,779
{\an8}who gathered to pay their final respects
to a young woman taken too soon.
140
00:11:36,849 --> 00:11:41,750
{\an8}She was a great person.
Very popular, clever, lovely.
141
00:11:41,820 --> 00:11:43,602
{\an8}She was...
I don't... Yeah.
142
00:11:43,672 --> 00:11:45,454
TRUDEAU: Alice is
remembered as a happy,
143
00:11:45,524 --> 00:11:47,940
fun-loving girl
with a zest for life.
144
00:11:48,010 --> 00:11:49,876
Described as always
putting others...
145
00:11:49,945 --> 00:11:53,045
GEORGIE: The Palmers were
really doing it tough at that time.
146
00:11:54,583 --> 00:11:58,284
And when I think of
how bad it was back then,
147
00:11:58,354 --> 00:12:01,621
it's hard to imagine how
much worse they would get.
148
00:12:14,853 --> 00:12:19,121
RUSSELL: Ten days after Ali's funeral,
so that makes it the 15th of January,
149
00:12:19,191 --> 00:12:24,660
stuff started happening around
the house. Noises in the roof,
150
00:12:24,730 --> 00:12:29,164
and sounds coming
from outside the window
151
00:12:29,234 --> 00:12:33,653
and other movements that seemed
to come from Ali's old room.
152
00:12:35,358 --> 00:12:39,942
So, we re-hung the door
to Ali's room,
153
00:12:40,011 --> 00:12:43,946
and we got a pest controller to come in
and check for termites.
154
00:12:44,015 --> 00:12:46,315
But it didn't help at all,
155
00:12:46,385 --> 00:12:50,919
the door kept slamming and we still
kept getting the noises from her room.
156
00:12:53,275 --> 00:12:55,775
GEORGIE: There was just
something weird about that house.
157
00:12:55,844 --> 00:12:58,711
It had a really strange
feeling about it.
158
00:12:58,781 --> 00:13:02,532
I really can't explain to you
what it was exactly,
159
00:13:02,601 --> 00:13:04,150
but you'd go in there
160
00:13:04,219 --> 00:13:07,453
and just have this bad feeling,
like, in your gut.
161
00:13:17,015 --> 00:13:20,182
JUNE: I started having
these nightmares,
162
00:13:20,252 --> 00:13:23,952
and they were so distressing
163
00:13:24,022 --> 00:13:29,592
that sometimes I just
wouldn't want to open my eyes.
164
00:13:29,661 --> 00:13:31,877
I'd woken up, but I didn't
want to open my eyes.
165
00:13:34,149 --> 00:13:38,985
There was one particular one,
it was quite vivid and recurring.
166
00:13:39,054 --> 00:13:43,856
Alice would come down the hall
still dripping from the dam
167
00:13:43,926 --> 00:13:49,428
and just stand at the foot
of our bed, just staring at us.
168
00:13:49,498 --> 00:13:54,767
It was quite terrifying, as I said,
I didn't want to open my eyes.
169
00:13:58,841 --> 00:14:02,308
By early February my nightmares
were getting so bad
170
00:14:02,327 --> 00:14:05,945
that I began to go
for walks at night,
171
00:14:06,014 --> 00:14:08,197
sometimes for hours at a time,
172
00:14:08,267 --> 00:14:10,883
just so that I didn't
have to go to bed at night
173
00:14:10,953 --> 00:14:13,386
and close my eyes
and go to sleep.
174
00:14:16,959 --> 00:14:20,860
Sometimes I would actually
go into people's houses.
175
00:14:20,929 --> 00:14:24,613
I didn't feel like I was
doing anything wrong.
176
00:14:24,683 --> 00:14:29,751
I guess I really just wanted to be
inside someone else's life for a while.
177
00:14:41,267 --> 00:14:44,333
INTERVIEWER: Georgie, do you remember
how Russell was doing at that time?
178
00:14:44,403 --> 00:14:49,105
Yeah, Russell was... He was working
a lot at that point.
179
00:14:49,174 --> 00:14:52,925
I think that might have
helped him with his grief.
180
00:14:52,995 --> 00:14:55,461
Send it through
without any explanation.
181
00:14:55,531 --> 00:14:56,929
FREDERIK:
Russell and I met
182
00:14:56,998 --> 00:14:59,765
actually on the Gippsland
Catchment project in '98
183
00:14:59,835 --> 00:15:01,917
and worked together on that.
184
00:15:01,987 --> 00:15:03,702
{\an8}INTERVIEWER: So, you guys have
known each other for a few years?
185
00:15:03,773 --> 00:15:06,021
{\an8}Yeah, a good few years, yeah.
186
00:15:08,210 --> 00:15:10,392
Do you remember how he was affected
after Alice's death?
187
00:15:10,462 --> 00:15:12,495
What changed?
188
00:15:12,564 --> 00:15:16,982
It was work as normal,
and that was troubling actually.
189
00:15:17,052 --> 00:15:20,319
I didn't really know what
to say to him about that.
190
00:15:21,490 --> 00:15:23,022
You never spoke about it?
191
00:15:23,092 --> 00:15:26,175
Not really. Everyone grieves
in their own way.
192
00:15:26,245 --> 00:15:32,014
And it wasn't really my place
to be telling him how to feel.
193
00:15:32,084 --> 00:15:34,684
But I certainly...
I certainly was concerned.
194
00:15:36,922 --> 00:15:40,405
RUSSELL: I was really grateful
that I had my work.
195
00:15:40,475 --> 00:15:43,659
And, I mean, I felt really guilty
about that at the time.
196
00:15:43,729 --> 00:15:46,829
But, you know, I just wanted
to get on with it.
197
00:15:51,336 --> 00:15:55,120
Then one night,
in late February,
198
00:15:55,190 --> 00:15:59,124
I came home from work,
and I was sitting in the kitchen
199
00:15:59,194 --> 00:16:01,994
and I heard a noise
coming from Ali's room.
200
00:16:03,581 --> 00:16:08,066
So, I went into Ali's room,
and I don't really know why,
201
00:16:08,136 --> 00:16:11,587
but I sort of found
myself sitting down
202
00:16:11,656 --> 00:16:13,155
in the chair in front
of the dresser.
203
00:16:15,494 --> 00:16:17,994
And before I could kind of work out
what I was doing there,
204
00:16:18,063 --> 00:16:21,530
Ali walked in and she went over
to her desk
205
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,432
and started sharpening a pencil,
206
00:16:23,502 --> 00:16:30,739
and then she looked like she was checking
for a text message on her phone.
207
00:16:30,809 --> 00:16:33,709
And, you know, I was
completely freaked out.
208
00:16:35,114 --> 00:16:38,480
She was completely
oblivious to my presence.
209
00:16:40,452 --> 00:16:44,120
And then I don't know what happened,
I must have moved the bed
210
00:16:44,189 --> 00:16:46,555
or, you know, squeaked
my shoes or something,
211
00:16:46,625 --> 00:16:48,824
but she went completely rigid.
212
00:16:50,062 --> 00:16:55,531
And I knew then that
she knew I was there.
213
00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:01,137
And she slowly turned around and she looked me
right in the eye fully for,
214
00:17:01,206 --> 00:17:04,307
you know,
what felt like forever.
215
00:17:04,376 --> 00:17:10,046
And then she just came at me and stood up
and said, Get out! Get out!
216
00:17:10,115 --> 00:17:14,150
And I just got up and went out
as fast as I could.
217
00:17:15,671 --> 00:17:17,520
I could hear Russell crying.
218
00:17:17,589 --> 00:17:18,987
And he was here in the kitchen,
219
00:17:19,057 --> 00:17:21,023
Mathew and I both
found him in here,
220
00:17:21,092 --> 00:17:23,259
and he was sobbing.
221
00:17:23,328 --> 00:17:26,244
He was absolutely inconsolable.
222
00:17:26,314 --> 00:17:29,448
INTERVIEWER: Do you believe Russell
when he says he saw a ghost?
223
00:17:29,517 --> 00:17:33,285
Yeah, I do. I believe
he saw what he saw.
224
00:17:33,354 --> 00:17:38,657
And he wouldn't... He's not the kind
of man to make something up.
225
00:17:38,727 --> 00:17:42,427
So, I believe he saw something.
226
00:17:42,497 --> 00:17:47,099
Whether it's a real ghost
or not, I don't really know.
227
00:17:47,168 --> 00:17:48,968
But I'm sure he saw something.
228
00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:11,073
GEORGIE: I remember trying
to talk to members of the church
229
00:18:11,143 --> 00:18:15,461
about how to help June
and how to help the Palmers.
230
00:18:15,531 --> 00:18:20,465
But there just didn't seem like
there was anything we could do.
231
00:18:20,535 --> 00:18:22,968
I think part of the reason was
232
00:18:23,038 --> 00:18:24,469
because they
weren't churchgoers.
233
00:18:24,539 --> 00:18:27,556
So, didn't know how
to offer them comfort.
234
00:18:30,812 --> 00:18:34,663
I don't even know
what June believes in.
235
00:18:34,766 --> 00:18:37,749
I found myself mostly
concerned about Mathew.
236
00:18:39,254 --> 00:18:42,438
I guess because those two
were always so close,
237
00:18:42,508 --> 00:18:44,840
I was worried how he would cope.
238
00:18:52,951 --> 00:18:56,152
I remember he was spending
a lot more time alone.
239
00:18:58,106 --> 00:19:00,405
We were all worried about him.
240
00:19:03,912 --> 00:19:08,397
{\an8}Mathew came in with some
unusual bruises on his body.
241
00:19:08,466 --> 00:19:13,535
{\an8}They were unusual in terms
of their distribution and depth.
242
00:19:13,605 --> 00:19:17,439
{\an8}We obviously took a history,
trying to exclude trauma,
243
00:19:17,509 --> 00:19:21,627
{\an8}but there was certainly no history
of trauma that he was able to give us.
244
00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:23,612
{\an8}We tested him for vasculitis,
245
00:19:23,681 --> 00:19:28,166
{\an8}and we also excluded any poisoning
or toxins in his system.
246
00:19:28,236 --> 00:19:31,036
{\an8}We were unable to turn up
anything conclusive.
247
00:19:31,106 --> 00:19:37,359
{\an8}And several weeks after this,
the bruises just resolved spontaneously.
248
00:19:37,513 --> 00:19:41,213
{\an8}And we were never able to
really establish a cause for them.
249
00:19:44,086 --> 00:19:47,803
{\an8}My name's Steve Wilkie.
I'm Mathew's best friend.
250
00:19:47,872 --> 00:19:51,489
{\an8}I usually stay at Mathew's house
two or three times a week.
251
00:19:54,629 --> 00:20:01,750
We started a band together, so,
we normally play music at my house.
252
00:20:01,819 --> 00:20:06,171
Mathew seems a bit quieter,
but he was always pretty quiet,
253
00:20:06,241 --> 00:20:11,343
so, I guess there wasn't really any
warning bells going off or anything.
254
00:20:11,413 --> 00:20:14,663
Well, I had heard about June
going into people's houses.
255
00:20:14,733 --> 00:20:17,549
And Mathew never really seemed
to want to talk about any of that.
256
00:20:17,619 --> 00:20:20,052
I never asked him
about any of it.
257
00:20:25,761 --> 00:20:28,761
LEITH: I know that he was
always interested in photography.
258
00:20:28,830 --> 00:20:30,562
And he was...
259
00:20:30,632 --> 00:20:34,650
{\an8}At this time, he was starting
to pursue it with more passion.
260
00:20:38,674 --> 00:20:41,740
CLIVE: Mathew came to me,
he was very keen
261
00:20:41,810 --> 00:20:43,658
to find out anything
about photography.
262
00:20:43,728 --> 00:20:47,346
So, I was more than willing
to help out, that's what I do.
263
00:20:47,416 --> 00:20:51,049
So, he was picking my brains
about just about anything to do with it,
264
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,454
{\an8}from equipment, down to techniques,
down to lighting, you know.
265
00:20:55,523 --> 00:20:58,974
But he was a great asset, so, I mean,
eventually I employed him.
266
00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:27,653
INTERVIEWER: Mathew, can you
talk to me about the photographs
267
00:21:27,722 --> 00:21:30,556
of the backyard that
you've been taking?
268
00:21:31,993 --> 00:21:36,128
Yeah, basically I've taken
that same photo
269
00:21:36,198 --> 00:21:40,766
with that composition for, I think, every
three months for the past four years.
270
00:21:40,835 --> 00:21:43,469
{\an8}And it's just a photograph
of the backyard.
271
00:21:43,539 --> 00:21:46,321
{\an8}Looking out, you can see
the hills in the distance.
272
00:21:46,391 --> 00:21:48,657
{\an8}It's just like a little project
273
00:21:48,727 --> 00:21:51,727
{\an8}that I set up for myself
when we got here.
274
00:21:51,797 --> 00:21:56,782
{\an8}INTERVIEWER: And what was in
the April 28th photograph that was different?
275
00:21:56,852 --> 00:22:01,520
Well, it's basically
the same shot,
276
00:22:03,475 --> 00:22:08,009
{\an8}but it would appear that Alice
is standing against the fence.
277
00:22:16,421 --> 00:22:20,221
Do you remember what the reaction
in the house was at the time?
278
00:22:20,291 --> 00:22:25,727
I wouldn't say the mood was good,
but it was better than before.
279
00:22:25,797 --> 00:22:31,333
It was like... Like it gave us sort of
something to focus on, I think.
280
00:22:31,403 --> 00:22:32,451
All of us.
281
00:22:36,591 --> 00:22:38,957
BOB: The photographs were
taken on the 3rd of April,
282
00:22:39,027 --> 00:22:45,280
{\an8}and they were developed on the 4th,
and I looked at them, I think on the 5th.
283
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:49,718
{\an8}And looked at the dams and the water levels
and I was quite happy.
284
00:22:49,787 --> 00:22:53,605
{\an8}But it was only the following night
that it was pointed out to me by my wife
285
00:22:53,675 --> 00:22:55,040
{\an8}that there was something
in the background
286
00:22:55,109 --> 00:22:57,475
{\an8}in Norval Dam,
this image came up.
287
00:23:11,459 --> 00:23:13,625
JUNE: When I first
looked at the photograph,
288
00:23:13,695 --> 00:23:15,644
I didn't know
what to make of it.
289
00:23:15,714 --> 00:23:18,497
The image was quite unsettling
290
00:23:18,566 --> 00:23:21,750
because it certainly
looked like Alice.
291
00:23:23,355 --> 00:23:26,488
It was an incredibly
discomforting image.
292
00:23:31,380 --> 00:23:34,596
And I became convinced
that Alice was still alive.
293
00:23:41,973 --> 00:23:46,441
RUSSELL: I didn't have any rational explanation
for who was in those photos.
294
00:23:47,846 --> 00:23:52,180
But I did know something
about Alice that June didn't.
295
00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:57,052
I'd seen Alice's body.
I didn't think she was alive.
296
00:23:58,857 --> 00:24:01,290
I knew she wasn't.
297
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,727
I became convinced that Russell
had made a mistake.
298
00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:09,364
He himself said that it didn't look
like anybody anymore.
299
00:24:11,936 --> 00:24:13,952
June was so convinced
that I'd made a mistake
300
00:24:14,022 --> 00:24:16,889
that I actually started
to have doubts myself.
301
00:24:16,958 --> 00:24:21,559
I started to think maybe
I'd made my mind up
302
00:24:21,629 --> 00:24:25,297
that it was Alice's
body before I'd looked,
303
00:24:25,366 --> 00:24:29,517
and that the circumstances
were so compelling for me,
304
00:24:29,587 --> 00:24:33,238
that I'd decided
that it was her.
305
00:24:35,793 --> 00:24:40,345
{\an8}More than three months after the funeral
of Ararat teenager Alice Palmer,
306
00:24:40,414 --> 00:24:42,714
{\an8}her grieving parents
formally requested
307
00:24:42,784 --> 00:24:45,183
her body be exhumed
from the general cemetery.
308
00:24:45,253 --> 00:24:48,120
{\an8}There has been some contention
from the Palmer family
309
00:24:48,189 --> 00:24:51,740
about the accuracy of the original
body identification.
310
00:24:51,810 --> 00:24:56,428
{\an8}June and Russell Palmer were adamant
that DNA testing be carried out.
311
00:24:56,498 --> 00:24:58,680
{\an8}They just couldn't be sure
that the body they identified
312
00:24:58,750 --> 00:24:59,831
{\an8}was indeed Alice.
313
00:24:59,901 --> 00:25:01,216
TRUDEAU: And today, almost...
314
00:25:01,286 --> 00:25:02,784
RUSSELL: Alice's
body was exhumed
315
00:25:02,854 --> 00:25:05,854
in the presence of the funeral director,
Dr. Slatter,
316
00:25:05,924 --> 00:25:09,057
and there was a representative
from the coroner's office also.
317
00:25:09,211 --> 00:25:11,960
And it was then transported
to Ararat Base Hospital
318
00:25:12,030 --> 00:25:14,496
where they took the DNA samples.
319
00:25:14,566 --> 00:25:17,815
And she stayed there
until the results came back.
320
00:25:21,856 --> 00:25:24,489
{\an8}JUNE: A few days later
we received a copy
321
00:25:24,559 --> 00:25:28,209
of the coroner's
preliminary report,
322
00:25:28,279 --> 00:25:34,182
and Alice's identity was confirmed
by the DNA sample match.
323
00:25:36,054 --> 00:25:40,205
RUSSELL: It was only after they'd confirmed
that it was Alice's body
324
00:25:40,358 --> 00:25:42,874
that I realized how much
that I'd invested
325
00:25:42,944 --> 00:25:46,878
in the possibility
of it not being her.
326
00:25:46,948 --> 00:25:51,016
You know, I can't tell you how much
I wanted there to have been
327
00:25:51,086 --> 00:25:55,987
a terrible mistake,
even if it had been mine.
328
00:25:56,057 --> 00:26:00,192
Really, really wanted there to have been
somebody else's kid in that dam.
329
00:26:00,261 --> 00:26:02,794
A runaway, a murder victim.
330
00:26:02,864 --> 00:26:06,481
Just anybody else's, just as long
as it wasn't my kid.
331
00:26:06,551 --> 00:26:08,934
Just as long as it wasn't Alice.
332
00:26:27,421 --> 00:26:28,837
{\an8}Yes, it is.
333
00:26:28,906 --> 00:26:30,271
{\an8}(LAUGHING)
334
00:26:30,992 --> 00:26:31,990
{\an8}Stop it.
335
00:26:32,060 --> 00:26:33,091
(LAUGHING)
336
00:26:33,929 --> 00:26:34,943
(DOG BARKING)
337
00:26:35,013 --> 00:26:36,795
(PEOPLE CHATTERING)
338
00:26:36,864 --> 00:26:38,113
(PEOPLE CLAPPING)
339
00:26:39,016 --> 00:26:40,548
(ALL LAUGHING)
340
00:26:41,887 --> 00:26:43,085
Oh, my God.
341
00:26:43,154 --> 00:26:44,519
(SCREAMING)
342
00:26:52,513 --> 00:26:55,947
JUNE: Alice was reburied two days later,
on the 7th of June.
343
00:26:58,386 --> 00:27:03,405
But the question remained,
who or what was in those photos?
344
00:27:25,496 --> 00:27:28,813
Well, I continued
to hear things, and...
345
00:27:28,883 --> 00:27:29,997
INTERVIEWER:
What did you hear?
346
00:27:30,067 --> 00:27:31,866
I was hearing noises.
Sort of...
347
00:27:31,936 --> 00:27:35,020
They didn't really relent. I kept hearing
noises in the hallway.
348
00:27:35,023 --> 00:27:38,040
So, I thought, "Well,
I'll just set up a camera
349
00:27:38,109 --> 00:27:41,943
"to see if I see anything,
see something."
350
00:28:06,738 --> 00:28:14,208
The first night I looked back
and there was footage of a figure
351
00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:20,315
moving from the lounge room
across the hallway to the front door.
352
00:28:32,396 --> 00:28:35,229
HELEN OVER RADIO:
You're on Voice FM, 8:02.
353
00:28:35,299 --> 00:28:37,065
I'm Helen Bath
and we're taking calls
354
00:28:37,135 --> 00:28:40,202
with psychic consultant,
Ray Kemeney.
355
00:28:40,205 --> 00:28:42,187
Next we have Nadia
on the line, Ray.
356
00:28:42,257 --> 00:28:45,490
RAY: Hi, Nadia, how are you?
What can I do for you?
357
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,660
NADIA: My question is about career,
and I've also got a question about family.
358
00:28:48,730 --> 00:28:50,995
JUNE: It was around about
that time I decided
359
00:28:51,065 --> 00:28:54,232
to seek out the advice
of Ray Kemeney.
360
00:28:54,302 --> 00:28:57,752
I had heard Ray on
the radio over the years,
361
00:28:57,822 --> 00:29:00,539
and opinion was quite divided,
362
00:29:00,608 --> 00:29:02,391
some thought
he was the real deal,
363
00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:04,359
others were unconvinced.
364
00:29:04,428 --> 00:29:06,528
HELEN: Next we have
Annie on the line.
365
00:29:06,598 --> 00:29:08,396
RAY: Hi, Annie,
how are you?
366
00:29:08,466 --> 00:29:10,899
ANNIE: I'm fine, thanks, Ray.
Thank you for taking my call.
367
00:29:10,969 --> 00:29:14,235
My pleasure.
What can I do for you?
368
00:29:14,305 --> 00:29:17,739
I just wanted a general reading.
369
00:29:17,809 --> 00:29:20,675
General not just medical.
370
00:29:20,745 --> 00:29:22,611
RAY: I'm Hungarian
by birth.
371
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,030
My parents came out here
when I was quite young.
372
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:29,701
I've got a 15-year-old daughter who lives
with her mother in South Australia.
373
00:29:29,770 --> 00:29:34,038
My Christian name is actually Schultz,
but I changed it to Ray.
374
00:29:34,108 --> 00:29:37,409
I think it's a more trustworthy name
for a psychic.
375
00:29:39,463 --> 00:29:41,863
Australia's wog
psychic of choice.
376
00:29:45,287 --> 00:29:46,685
Most of what I do is...
377
00:29:46,755 --> 00:29:49,955
When I'm dealing with
the sick or the dying,
378
00:29:50,024 --> 00:29:53,858
{\an8}which I guess probably fits
about a third of my clients,
379
00:29:53,928 --> 00:29:55,693
{\an8}is to allow them the possibility
380
00:29:55,763 --> 00:29:57,262
that death is not
the bitter end,
381
00:29:57,332 --> 00:30:01,399
that it's not the full stop.
382
00:30:01,469 --> 00:30:03,435
Which is a consolation that
I'm quite happy to give them
383
00:30:03,504 --> 00:30:08,740
considering the fact that what happens
after death is up for grabs anyway.
384
00:30:08,810 --> 00:30:11,726
There's somebody
very close to you,
385
00:30:11,796 --> 00:30:15,029
someone you haven't
seen for a while,
386
00:30:15,099 --> 00:30:18,332
someone who is going
to come back into your life.
387
00:30:18,402 --> 00:30:21,036
Someone who'll be of
great comfort to you.
388
00:30:23,224 --> 00:30:25,423
Anyone that fits that bill?
389
00:30:25,493 --> 00:30:27,693
ANNIE: Yeah,
I can think of someone.
390
00:30:27,762 --> 00:30:29,227
Look, I won't lie to you, Annie,
391
00:30:29,297 --> 00:30:30,762
I can see obstacles ahead of you
392
00:30:30,832 --> 00:30:33,581
but I think that this person
who is coming back to you
393
00:30:33,651 --> 00:30:35,300
is gonna make a great difference
394
00:30:35,370 --> 00:30:37,802
and will be of
great solace to you.
395
00:30:39,390 --> 00:30:40,789
(CRYING) Thanks, Ray.
396
00:30:41,926 --> 00:30:43,458
See you, Annie.
397
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,593
Where I come from,
when someone dies,
398
00:31:01,662 --> 00:31:03,561
they block out all the mirrors
in the house
399
00:31:03,631 --> 00:31:07,833
to stop the dead from finding
their way back.
400
00:31:07,902 --> 00:31:10,535
It's things like that,
that make a difference.
401
00:31:18,696 --> 00:31:20,428
Hi, Annie. I'm Ray.
402
00:31:24,752 --> 00:31:25,967
(WHISPERING INDISTINCTLY)
403
00:31:26,037 --> 00:31:27,401
(SNIFFLING)
404
00:31:32,727 --> 00:31:34,508
You're gonna die, Annie.
405
00:31:36,197 --> 00:31:39,130
It's just the start of
something else, all right?
406
00:31:40,584 --> 00:31:42,283
Thank you.
407
00:31:42,353 --> 00:31:43,351
It's all right.
408
00:31:44,489 --> 00:31:45,586
Okay.
409
00:31:49,894 --> 00:31:53,044
JUNE: I liked Ray immediately.
He wasn't what I expected.
410
00:31:53,198 --> 00:31:55,313
I don't know what
I really did expect,
411
00:31:55,383 --> 00:31:57,949
but there was nothing
kind of spooky
412
00:31:58,018 --> 00:31:59,567
or fake about him.
413
00:32:01,339 --> 00:32:02,921
{\an8}(BUTTON BEEPS)
414
00:32:10,565 --> 00:32:12,630
{\an8}Okay. Are we ready?
415
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:13,932
{\an8}Mmm-hmm.
416
00:32:16,203 --> 00:32:17,602
{\an8}I want you to close your eyes...
417
00:32:17,672 --> 00:32:19,938
{\an8}RAY: I usually video tape
my sessions
418
00:32:20,007 --> 00:32:23,391
{\an8}so that they can be
reviewed later by the clients,
419
00:32:23,460 --> 00:32:28,079
especially when there's elements
of trance or hypnotism involved.
420
00:32:28,148 --> 00:32:31,082
I keep one copy for myself,
one copy for them.
421
00:32:31,152 --> 00:32:33,201
Better to be safe than sorry.
422
00:32:33,354 --> 00:32:36,922
{\an8}Okay, so you're standing
outside your house.
423
00:32:36,991 --> 00:32:38,790
{\an8}Tell me what you see.
424
00:32:43,698 --> 00:32:45,713
{\an8}My house.
425
00:32:45,783 --> 00:32:50,518
{\an8}JUNE ON TAPE: It's a white house.
I'm walking towards the front door.
426
00:32:50,588 --> 00:32:51,702
{\an8}RAY ON TAPE: Okay.
427
00:32:51,772 --> 00:32:54,789
{\an8}Now, I want you to go
inside the house.
428
00:32:54,859 --> 00:32:56,925
I want you to move
slowly through the house,
429
00:32:56,994 --> 00:32:59,393
I want you to describe
what you see,
430
00:33:01,532 --> 00:33:04,365
where you are, just give me
a guided tour.
431
00:33:16,497 --> 00:33:20,498
Okay, I'm walking
down the hallway
432
00:33:20,568 --> 00:33:22,400
towards Alice's room.
433
00:33:27,809 --> 00:33:29,273
What's there?
434
00:33:29,343 --> 00:33:33,011
I can see Alice's shoes
outside her room.
435
00:33:35,983 --> 00:33:38,616
And what does that
mean for you? June?
436
00:33:42,289 --> 00:33:45,724
She always used to leave
her sneakers outside her room.
437
00:33:48,596 --> 00:33:51,863
So, I want you to go
inside her room now,
438
00:33:51,933 --> 00:33:55,183
open the door and just move inside.
439
00:33:55,253 --> 00:33:59,287
You feel safe enough
to go into Alice's room?
440
00:34:01,558 --> 00:34:02,891
Okay.
441
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:03,992
Now open the door.
442
00:34:08,232 --> 00:34:10,264
I'm going inside her room.
443
00:34:24,816 --> 00:34:27,215
You can see something,
can't you?
444
00:34:28,385 --> 00:34:30,518
Tell me what you see, June.
445
00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:33,621
She's...
446
00:34:35,826 --> 00:34:40,261
Alice is sitting in the wicker chair
at the end of her bed.
447
00:34:49,557 --> 00:34:51,055
She looks sad.
448
00:34:56,797 --> 00:34:59,631
RUSSELL: I first met Ray when June
brought him home for dinner
449
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:03,484
the night of her
first consultation.
450
00:35:03,554 --> 00:35:05,553
And, yeah, I'm completely
indifferent to psychics,
451
00:35:05,622 --> 00:35:08,422
I don't really have
a position on them at all.
452
00:35:08,492 --> 00:35:11,592
I don't really want them to come round
for dinner, mind you,
453
00:35:11,662 --> 00:35:13,795
but, you know, I didn't want
to upset June either.
454
00:35:15,833 --> 00:35:18,833
He was a pleasant sort of a bloke,
he wasn't ooky-spooky at all.
455
00:35:18,903 --> 00:35:21,135
And I was on my best behavior.
456
00:35:22,156 --> 00:35:25,072
A few days later,
maybe a week later,
457
00:35:25,142 --> 00:35:29,010
I suggested to the family
that we hold a seance.
458
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:34,348
June was really keen, but I remember
Russell just flat out refused.
459
00:35:34,419 --> 00:35:36,784
I think Mathew finally
talked his dad around.
460
00:35:36,854 --> 00:35:38,169
INTERVIEWER: Mathew,
how did you feel
461
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,738
about having a seance
held in your house?
462
00:35:43,044 --> 00:35:48,346
At the time I was actually kind
of interested, sort of curious.
463
00:35:48,415 --> 00:35:52,650
I don't think Dad was thrilled
about the idea.
464
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,655
But, yeah, I thought
it would be interesting.
465
00:35:57,725 --> 00:36:00,024
And I suggested we film it,
466
00:36:00,094 --> 00:36:03,411
and I recorded it with
just our video camera,
467
00:36:03,481 --> 00:36:05,497
which is the PC9.
468
00:36:08,802 --> 00:36:11,636
I'm getting a strong
presence in the room.
469
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,072
In the house.
470
00:36:17,278 --> 00:36:20,645
JUNE: I think we all thought
that the seance was a failure.
471
00:36:20,714 --> 00:36:23,814
Ray didn't really
come up with anything,
472
00:36:23,884 --> 00:36:25,650
like, with any
signs or anything,
473
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,704
so, after about an hour
or so, we called it quits,
474
00:36:29,773 --> 00:36:32,090
and it wasn't until the next day
475
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:37,095
that Mathew was reviewing
the footage
476
00:36:37,165 --> 00:36:40,615
that there was
an image of Alice.
477
00:36:40,684 --> 00:36:42,984
Make your presence known to us.
478
00:37:03,341 --> 00:37:08,443
RUSSELL: The new footage was completely different
to the hallway footage.
479
00:37:08,513 --> 00:37:13,882
For one, it was significantly more detailed,
so it was less ambiguous.
480
00:37:13,885 --> 00:37:16,834
And it was impossible
to dismiss it
481
00:37:16,904 --> 00:37:22,573
as a coincidence of
shadow play and digital noise.
482
00:37:24,929 --> 00:37:30,532
There was something inexplicable
in our house, that was beyond doubt.
483
00:37:34,405 --> 00:37:39,224
I was concerned. This was
pretty unfamiliar territory for me.
484
00:37:41,061 --> 00:37:43,360
I've never seen a ghost before.
485
00:38:01,248 --> 00:38:03,881
RUSSELL: Ray got Mathew
to help him set up
486
00:38:03,951 --> 00:38:06,550
three permanent cameras
inside the house
487
00:38:06,621 --> 00:38:10,822
recording in time-lapse
configurations 24 hours a day.
488
00:38:12,759 --> 00:38:18,796
There'd been a lot of speculation
about Ray and what he was doing there.
489
00:38:18,866 --> 00:38:20,781
I mean, when people don't know
490
00:38:20,851 --> 00:38:25,219
that, of course, leads to a lot
of talk and a lot of speculation.
491
00:38:25,289 --> 00:38:28,472
I had heard rumors
throughout July of video images
492
00:38:28,542 --> 00:38:32,510
purporting to be of an apparition
in the house.
493
00:38:32,579 --> 00:38:36,948
But I must say I was skeptical
as to their legitimacy.
494
00:38:37,018 --> 00:38:39,651
INTERVIEWER:
And your view on Ray?
495
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:42,020
Also very skeptical.
496
00:38:42,089 --> 00:38:44,471
I think they had me as
some kind of Rasputin figure
497
00:38:44,541 --> 00:38:47,108
mesmerizing the Palmers,
stealing their money,
498
00:38:47,177 --> 00:38:49,276
doctoring the photos of Alice.
499
00:38:49,346 --> 00:38:52,530
{\an8}(ALL SINGING)
500
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,033
{\an8}Mathew, in particular,
seemed to be really struggling.
501
00:39:02,142 --> 00:39:05,543
{\an8}I thought I might be able to help
this boy by being there, you know.
502
00:39:05,613 --> 00:39:06,644
{\an8}(BLOWS)
503
00:39:06,714 --> 00:39:07,912
{\an8}RUSSELL: Good one.
Beautiful.
504
00:39:07,982 --> 00:39:09,514
{\an8}JUNE: Well done.
505
00:39:09,583 --> 00:39:12,383
{\an8}RAY: That said, my chief
motivation was professional.
506
00:39:12,452 --> 00:39:14,068
Something was happening
inside that house
507
00:39:14,137 --> 00:39:16,337
and I wanted to
find out what it was.
508
00:40:11,845 --> 00:40:14,445
INTERVIEWER: What was your
reaction to these images?
509
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:20,701
RUSSELL: We were
completely gobsmacked by them.
510
00:40:20,771 --> 00:40:23,554
But before we had time to, you know,
take in what that meant
511
00:40:23,674 --> 00:40:25,406
the Withers' video came out.
512
00:40:25,476 --> 00:40:26,507
DOUG: Go on.
513
00:40:27,144 --> 00:40:28,059
Is it good?
514
00:40:28,212 --> 00:40:29,243
Yeah, it's great.
515
00:40:29,313 --> 00:40:30,778
{\an8}Can I have a look?
516
00:40:30,847 --> 00:40:32,713
{\an8}Yeah, be careful.
517
00:40:32,783 --> 00:40:36,650
{\an8}JUNE: Cathy and Doug Withers
were at the dam on April the 3rd,
518
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:39,604
the same day that
the Bob Smeet photo was taken.
519
00:40:39,674 --> 00:40:40,788
DOUG: Be careful.
520
00:40:40,891 --> 00:40:43,223
CATHY: What do you
think I'm going to do?
521
00:40:43,293 --> 00:40:46,627
Give it back.
Be careful.
522
00:40:46,697 --> 00:40:49,062
CATHY: It's safe
in my hands, babe.
523
00:40:49,132 --> 00:40:51,899
(CATHY EXCLAIMING)
524
00:40:51,968 --> 00:40:55,286
{\an8}It was a couple of months later,
the end of July,
525
00:40:55,356 --> 00:41:02,176
{\an8}when we were looking at our footage
that we'd shot down at the dam
526
00:41:02,246 --> 00:41:04,745
and came across...
527
00:41:04,815 --> 00:41:10,752
CATHY: A figure in the background,
which we identified as Bob Smeet,
528
00:41:10,821 --> 00:41:13,254
which interested us
'cause there's...
529
00:41:13,323 --> 00:41:15,089
Yeah, clearly, we didn't...
We sort of went,
530
00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:17,324
Oh! It was the same
day he was there
531
00:41:17,394 --> 00:41:20,694
when he captured the image that people
have been talking about."
532
00:41:20,764 --> 00:41:23,731
So, then we went
through all our footage
533
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,984
to see if we perhaps might
have captured that figure as well.
534
00:41:27,054 --> 00:41:28,752
Maybe the camera
had seen what Bob saw.
535
00:41:28,823 --> 00:41:31,322
Yeah. Yeah.
536
00:41:31,391 --> 00:41:34,558
And we did find a figure
in the background
537
00:41:34,628 --> 00:41:38,679
like the image that had been
described in his picture.
538
00:41:38,749 --> 00:41:40,547
And then we looked more closely
539
00:41:40,618 --> 00:41:43,217
and Doug zoomed in on it.
540
00:41:43,286 --> 00:41:46,553
Yeah, I got right in
on the computer.
541
00:41:46,624 --> 00:41:50,675
And from what, you know,
could have looked like a female figure
542
00:41:50,745 --> 00:41:53,360
from a long way away,
543
00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:55,313
up close and tight,
544
00:41:55,383 --> 00:42:00,317
you could see that it definitely
was neither female nor Alice.
545
00:42:00,387 --> 00:42:01,885
It was Mathew.
546
00:42:04,541 --> 00:42:05,839
INTERVIEWER: Do you guys
believe in ghosts?
547
00:42:05,909 --> 00:42:07,007
(LAUGHING) No.
548
00:42:07,077 --> 00:42:08,976
-No. No.
-(LAUGHS) No.
549
00:42:11,565 --> 00:42:14,915
MATTHEW: Well, this is where I was
when the Bob Smeet photo was taken.
550
00:42:14,985 --> 00:42:20,237
I was wearing Alice's jacket, and I
looked up and I saw a man on the hill,
551
00:42:20,307 --> 00:42:22,539
who turned out to be Bob Smeet.
552
00:42:22,609 --> 00:42:26,193
And I didn't
wanna be in a photo.
553
00:42:27,864 --> 00:42:31,031
So, I walked off
through the bush.
554
00:42:31,101 --> 00:42:35,469
What I didn't see was there was also
a couple over there filming,
555
00:42:35,539 --> 00:42:37,121
who turned out
to be the Withers.
556
00:42:41,561 --> 00:42:44,561
When the Withers' thing
came out, Dad came to me
557
00:42:44,631 --> 00:42:47,998
and asked me if I had been involved
in anything else.
558
00:42:48,068 --> 00:42:51,652
And I didn't wanna lie
to him, so I told him.
559
00:43:00,163 --> 00:43:02,429
And I explained to Dad
that I was responsible
560
00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:04,599
for the image of Alice
in the hallway
561
00:43:04,668 --> 00:43:10,187
and the bedroom, and that I created
the April 28th backyard photo
562
00:43:10,257 --> 00:43:12,556
and the seance image.
563
00:43:12,626 --> 00:43:14,474
I just told him what I'd done.
564
00:43:14,544 --> 00:43:16,010
Okay, so...
565
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,547
I got two photos, a photo
of Alice and the backyard
566
00:43:19,616 --> 00:43:22,950
and composited the images.
567
00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:25,118
That's a photo
that I took of Alice.
568
00:43:25,188 --> 00:43:27,471
Mum kept talking about...
569
00:43:27,541 --> 00:43:29,507
She was always talking
about getting Alice exhumed,
570
00:43:29,576 --> 00:43:32,159
and she was really
keen on this idea
571
00:43:32,229 --> 00:43:34,345
that Dad had misidentified
her body.
572
00:43:34,414 --> 00:43:37,614
And so I knew that without more evidence
it wasn't going to happen,
573
00:43:37,684 --> 00:43:40,234
so I made the photograph.
574
00:43:44,775 --> 00:43:47,174
{\an8}I just used
an old video of Alice
575
00:43:48,979 --> 00:43:52,713
{\an8}and I played that on the TV.
576
00:43:52,783 --> 00:43:54,565
{\an8}I had the TV up on the book case
577
00:43:54,634 --> 00:43:57,535
{\an8}and it was as simple
as rotating the mirror
578
00:43:57,605 --> 00:44:01,138
so that the reflection
of the TV came up in it.
579
00:44:01,208 --> 00:44:03,741
And obviously the mirror's
quite small,
580
00:44:03,811 --> 00:44:05,542
so it cropped out the edges
of the television
581
00:44:05,612 --> 00:44:08,178
and then, yeah,
I just filmed that.
582
00:44:08,248 --> 00:44:10,297
Same with the kitchen
and the bedroom.
583
00:44:10,367 --> 00:44:14,835
What you see basically is Alice
on the television in the mirror.
584
00:44:24,581 --> 00:44:28,949
Like, it wasn't about
trying to trick people.
585
00:44:29,018 --> 00:44:32,269
I guess it was like something
was better than nothing.
586
00:44:32,339 --> 00:44:33,603
INTERVIEWER: Do you think
that what you did
587
00:44:33,673 --> 00:44:36,340
ultimately made
it worse for June?
588
00:44:43,083 --> 00:44:44,614
I think that...
589
00:44:46,153 --> 00:44:50,420
Yeah. Yeah, I probably did
make it harder for her.
590
00:44:50,490 --> 00:44:53,224
But, I mean, that wasn't
my intention.
591
00:44:56,046 --> 00:45:01,165
I'm not quite so sure
about his reasons.
592
00:45:02,135 --> 00:45:04,251
I don't know that I
593
00:45:06,006 --> 00:45:07,338
totally...
594
00:45:11,312 --> 00:45:14,645
I don't want to say I don't
totally believe what he said,
595
00:45:14,715 --> 00:45:19,232
but I'm just not convinced
596
00:45:19,302 --> 00:45:21,802
that he really knows
why he did it.
597
00:45:28,445 --> 00:45:31,345
When it all came out, people wanted
to do stories and books
598
00:45:31,415 --> 00:45:35,399
and women's magazines,
the whole lot just went pear-shaped.
599
00:45:37,554 --> 00:45:39,570
Look, we just didn't
know how to handle it.
600
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:44,107
I mean, you know, we had to protect Matty,
we had to protect ourselves,
601
00:45:44,177 --> 00:45:46,961
we had to protect Ali's memory.
602
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:49,797
And we just didn't
have any experience
603
00:45:49,867 --> 00:45:51,916
of dealing with
all this interest
604
00:45:51,985 --> 00:45:54,018
in something that
was incredibly personal
605
00:45:54,087 --> 00:45:57,771
that people wanted
to make incredibly public.
606
00:45:57,841 --> 00:46:01,408
I mean, the Palmers weren't coping well
at all at that point.
607
00:46:01,478 --> 00:46:05,062
And things were very bad,
they were doing it tough.
608
00:46:07,301 --> 00:46:10,735
RUSSELL: This was like
the end of hope for all of us,
609
00:46:10,804 --> 00:46:12,853
but especially for June.
610
00:46:14,490 --> 00:46:17,391
She just really wasn't ready
to let Ali go.
611
00:46:21,114 --> 00:46:26,117
She just needed to hang on
to her a little bit longer.
612
00:46:26,186 --> 00:46:31,054
And I don't think she would admit it,
but she was devastated.
613
00:46:42,352 --> 00:46:43,951
FREDERIK: She's an
interesting girl.
614
00:46:44,021 --> 00:46:47,888
She seemed to not get on
with June so well.
615
00:46:47,958 --> 00:46:49,856
I thought they actually
were quite alike.
616
00:46:49,926 --> 00:46:52,810
It was interesting that the two of them
might not get on so well.
617
00:46:52,879 --> 00:46:55,863
(INDISTINCT CHATTERING)
618
00:46:55,866 --> 00:46:58,532
GEORGIE: They always
seemed very much alike
619
00:46:58,602 --> 00:47:04,421
{\an8}and you could see that Alice
took a lot after June.
620
00:47:04,491 --> 00:47:08,892
{\an8}But, also, other things had become clear
as well after Alice's death.
621
00:47:08,962 --> 00:47:12,146
That perhaps a bit of
the sense of the private
622
00:47:12,215 --> 00:47:15,682
that they both shared.
623
00:47:15,752 --> 00:47:16,850
Thanks for that.
624
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:17,951
(CHUCKLING)
625
00:47:18,021 --> 00:47:22,205
June was...
Well, still is...
626
00:47:22,275 --> 00:47:24,308
She keeps to herself a lot,
627
00:47:24,378 --> 00:47:28,461
and it became clear that that
was happening with Alice, too.
628
00:47:30,133 --> 00:47:31,698
They had the sense of privacy.
629
00:47:31,768 --> 00:47:33,901
The sense that there is
their own private life
630
00:47:33,970 --> 00:47:39,239
that they will either choose to share
or to not share, I guess.
631
00:47:44,815 --> 00:47:46,697
IRIS: It's wonderful
when your children come
632
00:47:46,767 --> 00:47:49,366
and that new expression
that you have.
633
00:47:49,436 --> 00:47:53,370
But as a mother,
you've still always got doubts
634
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,974
that you're not doing enough
or you're not doing the right thing.
635
00:48:00,664 --> 00:48:04,932
I partly blame myself,
that's come from me.
636
00:48:05,001 --> 00:48:07,284
Maybe it came from my mother.
637
00:48:09,405 --> 00:48:11,522
I've never been able to...
638
00:48:14,328 --> 00:48:18,278
I've never been able to give myself
over wholly to...
639
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:20,580
To June.
640
00:48:22,486 --> 00:48:26,387
I feel June is a little
like that, too,
641
00:48:26,456 --> 00:48:29,773
that she couldn't give herself
wholly to Alice.
642
00:48:37,984 --> 00:48:42,118
JUNE: I hope that Alice did know
how much I loved her.
643
00:48:42,188 --> 00:48:45,756
I guess I held something back
a little as she grew older.
644
00:48:48,194 --> 00:48:51,995
That would be the saddest thing,
to think she might not know.
645
00:49:01,441 --> 00:49:04,908
{\an8}Ray suggested that
Mathew accompany him
646
00:49:04,978 --> 00:49:08,979
on one of his country
Victorian tours,
647
00:49:09,048 --> 00:49:11,281
where he was doing
consultations,
648
00:49:11,351 --> 00:49:14,167
and Mathew jumped at the chance.
649
00:49:15,838 --> 00:49:17,971
Breakfast.
Your shout, I think.
650
00:49:18,041 --> 00:49:19,823
MATTHEW: No, I think
it's your shout.
651
00:49:35,775 --> 00:49:41,945
MATTHEW: I think I realized when I was away
how much I missed Alice
652
00:49:42,015 --> 00:49:46,249
and that I was never going to
be able to speak to her again.
653
00:49:47,487 --> 00:49:49,236
I guess that's something that
654
00:49:49,306 --> 00:49:52,139
all of Ray's clients
are coming to terms with.
655
00:49:52,209 --> 00:49:53,907
You know, they want
to talk to someone
656
00:49:54,060 --> 00:49:56,493
or make contact with
someone they've lost,
657
00:49:56,563 --> 00:50:00,680
and so did I.
658
00:50:00,750 --> 00:50:05,119
So, I was sort of one of
Ray's clients in a way as well.
659
00:50:10,843 --> 00:50:11,908
-MATTHEW: No.
-Can I chuck it at you?
660
00:50:11,978 --> 00:50:13,877
-No.
-Let's see what happens.
661
00:50:13,946 --> 00:50:15,195
Well, what do you
think is gonna happen?
662
00:50:15,265 --> 00:50:16,930
It's gonna hit me and then
I'm gonna get angry.
663
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,099
That's what's
gonna happen. No!
664
00:50:20,237 --> 00:50:22,119
JUNE: Watch yourself.
665
00:50:22,189 --> 00:50:24,821
What are you doing in my room?
666
00:50:24,891 --> 00:50:26,206
MATTHEW: I don't know.
667
00:50:38,438 --> 00:50:40,170
(MATTHEW CHUCKLING)
668
00:50:41,708 --> 00:50:42,940
Get out!
669
00:50:50,817 --> 00:50:52,716
MATTHEW: When me
and Ray went on the tour,
670
00:50:52,785 --> 00:50:54,968
we left the two rented cameras
671
00:50:55,038 --> 00:50:57,604
where they were, in the hallway.
672
00:50:57,674 --> 00:51:01,909
I was sure there was still
something in the house.
673
00:51:01,978 --> 00:51:04,361
And obviously, 'cause we
were away for the three days,
674
00:51:04,431 --> 00:51:07,698
you know, we couldn't
change the tapes or anything.
675
00:51:07,768 --> 00:51:12,603
So, we knew we were probably gonna get about,
like, a day and a half of footage.
676
00:51:12,672 --> 00:51:14,638
But we left them running
677
00:51:15,909 --> 00:51:18,992
and got back on August 22nd,
678
00:51:18,995 --> 00:51:21,995
at which point
we checked the tapes.
679
00:51:46,990 --> 00:51:49,256
JUNE: Only Russell
and I were in the house
680
00:51:49,326 --> 00:51:51,457
when these images were recorded,
681
00:51:51,527 --> 00:51:54,761
Mathew couldn't have had
anything to do with them.
682
00:51:56,399 --> 00:52:00,050
They seemed to prove that
there was a ghost in our house.
683
00:52:01,287 --> 00:52:02,786
Alice's ghost.
684
00:52:11,230 --> 00:52:13,146
INTERVIEWER: Do you
believe in ghosts?
685
00:52:14,634 --> 00:52:16,166
Didn't used to,
686
00:52:19,272 --> 00:52:22,172
but it's a hard thing
to prove or disprove.
687
00:52:27,147 --> 00:52:28,479
I think...
688
00:52:30,117 --> 00:52:33,017
Yeah, sometimes I think maybe
they do exist.
689
00:52:34,537 --> 00:52:37,036
There are ghosts everywhere.
690
00:52:37,106 --> 00:52:38,838
It's a scary world.
691
00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:41,808
I don't know why it's important.
692
00:52:41,878 --> 00:52:44,878
It's like how it helps people,
like, dealing with her loss,
693
00:52:44,948 --> 00:52:48,115
like making up stories
about ghosts or whatever.
694
00:52:53,106 --> 00:52:55,705
JUNE: It threw a question mark
over everything.
695
00:52:55,775 --> 00:52:59,709
I went back and reviewed all the footage
that had come before,
696
00:52:59,779 --> 00:53:03,747
all the material taken inside
the house following Alice's death.
697
00:53:09,689 --> 00:53:14,458
It was while I was looking at Mathew's
June 13th hallway material again,
698
00:53:14,528 --> 00:53:17,461
that I noticed
something in the image.
699
00:53:18,631 --> 00:53:19,963
There was a second figure,
700
00:53:20,033 --> 00:53:22,866
not Mathew in the hallway
but someone else,
701
00:53:22,936 --> 00:53:25,569
squatting in the dark
in Alice's room.
702
00:53:26,573 --> 00:53:28,439
At first I thought it was Alice.
703
00:53:30,343 --> 00:53:34,744
Then I realized it was
our neighbor, Brett Toohey.
704
00:53:43,123 --> 00:53:47,357
What was this man doing in my house,
in my daughter's room
705
00:53:47,427 --> 00:53:50,043
more than six months
after her death?
706
00:53:56,736 --> 00:54:01,237
When I found Alice's safe,
I realized exactly why he'd been there.
707
00:54:05,478 --> 00:54:07,611
He was looking for the tape.
708
00:54:10,583 --> 00:54:11,915
That's it.
709
00:54:37,778 --> 00:54:39,309
(CHATTERING INDISTINCTLY)
710
00:54:39,379 --> 00:54:41,812
But it was such a...
It wasn't a very nice day.
711
00:54:41,882 --> 00:54:43,847
Yes.
712
00:54:43,917 --> 00:54:45,798
-You did a smoke ring.
-Yes.
713
00:54:45,868 --> 00:54:47,550
BRETT ON TAPE: You two getting
nice and cozy without me.
714
00:54:47,621 --> 00:54:49,352
(GIRLS GIGGLING ON TAPE)
715
00:54:49,422 --> 00:54:52,756
JUNE: Alice began babysitting
for the Tooheys in 2002,
716
00:54:52,826 --> 00:54:56,093
and she continued for the next
two and a half years.
717
00:54:56,162 --> 00:54:59,429
The Tooheys' two boys
were five and nine years old.
718
00:55:01,985 --> 00:55:06,820
I literally just couldn't
believe my eyes.
719
00:55:06,890 --> 00:55:08,321
(MOANING)
720
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,927
It just made me feel so sad.
721
00:55:13,997 --> 00:55:15,328
(GIGGLING)
722
00:55:20,303 --> 00:55:21,634
RUSSELL: As far as
I'm concerned,
723
00:55:21,704 --> 00:55:24,003
the Tooheys were complicit
in Ali's death.
724
00:55:24,074 --> 00:55:26,239
I believe that if it hadn't
been for them,
725
00:55:26,309 --> 00:55:27,457
she would have
reached out to us.
726
00:55:27,526 --> 00:55:29,926
She wouldn't have felt guilty.
727
00:55:29,996 --> 00:55:34,030
She wouldn't have felt the burden
of that secret.
728
00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:36,449
She wouldn't have been isolated.
729
00:55:39,939 --> 00:55:43,106
INTERVIEWER: How do you
feel towards Brett now?
730
00:55:43,176 --> 00:55:47,127
If he was around the corner,
I'd probably throttle him.
731
00:55:47,197 --> 00:55:51,247
{\an8}He seemed like a nice guy.
You know, he was nice.
732
00:55:51,317 --> 00:55:57,354
{\an8}We'd speak and he was never like,
you know, nasty or anything.
733
00:55:57,357 --> 00:56:00,740
{\an8}KYLIE: He had a pool
at his place and usually...
734
00:56:00,810 --> 00:56:02,092
{\an8}KATE: We used to swim
there sometimes.
735
00:56:02,161 --> 00:56:03,760
{\an8}-MEREDITH: Yeah.
-During the summer.
736
00:56:03,830 --> 00:56:06,380
So, usually we just go to his place
and have a swim there.
737
00:56:06,449 --> 00:56:07,481
(PEOPLE CHATTERING)
738
00:56:07,550 --> 00:56:08,665
I was really bewildered
739
00:56:08,735 --> 00:56:09,933
about, you know, what happened.
740
00:56:10,002 --> 00:56:11,351
Yeah.
741
00:56:11,420 --> 00:56:13,753
It took a lot just to realize...
742
00:56:13,823 --> 00:56:16,956
Cause, you know, I had
no idea that Alice would...
743
00:56:17,026 --> 00:56:18,391
No, be with somebody, I know.
744
00:56:18,461 --> 00:56:20,360
Yeah, it was like
a complete surprise.
745
00:56:20,430 --> 00:56:24,314
Like, we just didn't think, you know,
she'd do something like that.
746
00:56:24,384 --> 00:56:25,481
Yeah.
747
00:56:28,587 --> 00:56:31,188
INTERVIEWER: Why do you
think Alice had the tape?
748
00:56:33,326 --> 00:56:35,658
Because she didn't
want them to have it.
749
00:56:35,728 --> 00:56:36,926
INTERVIEWER: Why is that?
750
00:56:36,996 --> 00:56:38,895
She didn't trust them
anymore, I think.
751
00:56:41,083 --> 00:56:44,885
RUSSELL: They must've been
really desperate to get that tape.
752
00:56:44,954 --> 00:56:48,688
From the moment that
they'd heard of Alice's death,
753
00:56:48,757 --> 00:56:52,926
they would've been living in this
constant fear of being found out.
754
00:56:56,332 --> 00:57:00,150
I'm glad he couldn't find it.
I'm glad he knows it's not over.
755
00:57:04,390 --> 00:57:05,689
SANDY: I had a lot
of personal dealings
756
00:57:05,758 --> 00:57:07,040
with the Palmers
during this time
757
00:57:07,109 --> 00:57:08,891
as part of the
investigating team
758
00:57:09,012 --> 00:57:13,213
trying to locate Brett and Marissa Toohey
and family.
759
00:57:13,282 --> 00:57:18,018
And initially we were optimistic
that they would be found
760
00:57:18,087 --> 00:57:20,220
and charges laid.
761
00:57:20,289 --> 00:57:23,506
{\an8}But, unfortunately, the leads
that we were working with
762
00:57:23,576 --> 00:57:28,044
{\an8}soon dried up, and so
the investigation stalled.
763
00:57:28,114 --> 00:57:31,798
So, the police's advice to us was
that even if the Tooheys were caught,
764
00:57:31,868 --> 00:57:33,600
they would get off
with a suspended sentence
765
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:36,469
by claiming that
the sex was consensual,
766
00:57:36,539 --> 00:57:40,807
which was, they claimed, you know,
supported by the video evidence.
767
00:57:40,876 --> 00:57:44,494
INTERVIEWER: Jason, did you know
about Alice's involvement with Brett?
768
00:57:45,165 --> 00:57:47,530
No. No one did.
769
00:57:49,769 --> 00:57:52,102
Obviously I didn't.
770
00:57:52,172 --> 00:57:56,522
We wouldn't be going out if I did.
It was... No.
771
00:57:56,592 --> 00:58:00,326
I thought we were...
I thought we were pretty good.
772
00:58:11,657 --> 00:58:14,490
JUNE: It just left so many
unanswered questions.
773
00:58:15,712 --> 00:58:17,910
Why was she involved with him?
774
00:58:17,980 --> 00:58:20,847
When did the relationship begin?
775
00:58:20,917 --> 00:58:23,449
Was she in love
with either of them?
776
00:58:25,488 --> 00:58:27,153
I just don't know.
777
00:58:30,727 --> 00:58:34,894
The Tooheys sold their house and moved,
six months after Alice died.
778
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,324
KIM: Alice kept secrets.
779
00:58:47,393 --> 00:58:53,062
{\an8}She kept the fact
she kept secrets a secret.
780
00:58:53,132 --> 00:58:55,932
Which does change the way
that you see somebody, I suppose,
781
00:58:56,001 --> 00:59:01,020
when you realize that they did
hide things from you a bit.
782
00:59:01,090 --> 00:59:05,675
I think I knew one Alice and maybe
her mum knew another,
783
00:59:05,744 --> 00:59:09,512
and there was another one again
that none of us knew maybe.
784
00:59:24,113 --> 00:59:27,430
JUNE: I found Ray's business card
taped to Alice's diary
785
00:59:27,500 --> 00:59:31,100
on the page marked
12th of July, 2005.
786
00:59:36,342 --> 00:59:38,424
RAY ON TAPE: Why have you
come to see me, Alice?
787
00:59:38,494 --> 00:59:40,493
ALICE ON TAPE:
Can you interpret dreams?
788
00:59:40,563 --> 00:59:43,512
Mmm-hmm. Sometimes.
789
00:59:43,582 --> 00:59:46,866
{\an8}How do you feel when you wake up
from these dreams?
790
00:59:51,006 --> 00:59:52,639
They scare me a bit.
791
00:59:52,709 --> 00:59:56,593
Alice came to see me about
five months before she died.
792
00:59:56,663 --> 00:59:58,595
I think she'd heard me
on the radio a few times
793
00:59:58,665 --> 01:00:01,063
and rang and made
an appointment.
794
01:00:01,133 --> 01:00:03,683
Take a deep breath.
Close your eyes.
795
01:00:03,752 --> 01:00:06,186
I want you to imagine you're standing
outside your house.
796
01:00:06,255 --> 01:00:08,821
When you can see
that, you tell me.
797
01:00:16,765 --> 01:00:17,763
Okay?
798
01:00:17,833 --> 01:00:19,799
(GIGGLES) Yeah.
799
01:00:19,868 --> 01:00:24,537
All right. Now, I want you
to go inside the front door.
800
01:00:24,607 --> 01:00:28,074
Go into the house. Tell me
what you see, where you are.
801
01:00:28,143 --> 01:00:30,943
INTERVIEWER: Ray, why didn't you tell June
that you'd actually met Alice before?
802
01:00:31,013 --> 01:00:33,613
Okay, I'm in the entrance...
803
01:00:33,683 --> 01:00:35,865
RAY: Look, I don't think it was a case
of hiding something from them.
804
01:00:35,934 --> 01:00:40,553
It was more that I was honoring
Alice's request for confidentiality.
805
01:00:40,623 --> 01:00:44,140
But it was damned if you do,
damned if you don't, you know.
806
01:00:44,210 --> 01:00:48,327
The living room's
just directly ahead.
807
01:00:48,397 --> 01:00:50,830
Then you go to your right
808
01:00:50,900 --> 01:00:56,369
and my room's in the back part of the house
as you go towards the kitchen.
809
01:00:56,439 --> 01:00:59,539
Do you see anything unusual?
Anything different?
810
01:01:02,779 --> 01:01:04,311
No.
811
01:01:04,314 --> 01:01:08,064
No, we didn't feel like
we could trust Ray anymore.
812
01:01:08,133 --> 01:01:11,634
For whatever reasons he had of keeping
that information to himself,
813
01:01:11,704 --> 01:01:14,353
it still felt like a betrayal.
814
01:01:20,112 --> 01:01:22,045
RAY: I wanted to help
June and the family
815
01:01:22,114 --> 01:01:24,914
and I think they
wanted me to help them.
816
01:01:24,984 --> 01:01:28,267
I wouldn't have been able
to do it if they'd known.
817
01:01:29,288 --> 01:01:31,054
There was a fair
bit of resentment.
818
01:01:31,124 --> 01:01:33,623
Mathew wouldn't
even speak to me.
819
01:01:33,692 --> 01:01:35,591
But what I think really hurt them
more than anything
820
01:01:35,661 --> 01:01:38,261
was what they saw as my failure
821
01:01:38,331 --> 01:01:41,864
to see Alice's eminent passing.
822
01:01:41,934 --> 01:01:44,950
Looking back, like,
it's kind of strange
823
01:01:45,020 --> 01:01:49,889
that someone would, you know,
be as close to us as he was...
824
01:01:52,378 --> 01:01:55,812
I think, maybe, he needed us
as much as we needed him.
825
01:02:08,678 --> 01:02:12,311
RAY: Alice came to see me
because she was upset.
826
01:02:12,381 --> 01:02:15,047
She was a very troubled person.
827
01:02:17,386 --> 01:02:19,318
JUNE: "I had
a dream last night.
828
01:02:19,388 --> 01:02:24,156
"I was cold and wet. I felt heavy,
like I'd been drugged,
829
01:02:24,226 --> 01:02:28,761
"and when I woke up,
these sensations didn't go.
830
01:02:28,831 --> 01:02:31,514
"I was feeling sick and confused
831
01:02:31,584 --> 01:02:35,902
"and I was starting
to get scared.
832
01:02:35,972 --> 01:02:38,471
(VOICE TREMBLING) "I needed to see Mum
to talk to her.
833
01:02:39,609 --> 01:02:41,273
"I stumbled to her room
834
01:02:41,343 --> 01:02:44,494
"and as I stood there at the bed,
watching them,
835
01:02:44,564 --> 01:02:48,982
"I was overcome by
this intense sadness.
836
01:02:49,051 --> 01:02:51,450
{\an8}Then the sadness turned to fear.
837
01:02:51,521 --> 01:02:54,053
{\an8}I just stood there
paralyzed with fear
838
01:02:54,123 --> 01:02:58,391
{\an8}and I realized there was nothing
that they could do for me anymore.
839
01:02:58,460 --> 01:03:01,628
I've never felt
so utterly alone.
840
01:03:01,697 --> 01:03:04,531
Everything felt
wrong. My body,
841
01:03:06,769 --> 01:03:08,635
the way things looked.
842
01:03:08,704 --> 01:03:12,271
Then I realized that there
was something wrong with me.
843
01:03:14,443 --> 01:03:18,010
"I started to cry, standing there
at the foot of the bed."
844
01:03:49,678 --> 01:03:52,979
Lake Mungo is in
southwestern New South Wales,
845
01:03:53,049 --> 01:03:57,183
and that was the location of
the school camp that Alice went on
846
01:03:57,253 --> 01:04:00,686
from August the 2nd
to the 5th in 2005.
847
01:04:04,243 --> 01:04:07,210
When she came home,
she said she'd had a good time.
848
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:08,961
I do particularly remember it
849
01:04:09,031 --> 01:04:12,515
because she came home
without her mobile phone,
850
01:04:12,585 --> 01:04:14,784
which we'd bought her
a month previously,
851
01:04:14,854 --> 01:04:17,921
and her favorite
bracelet and watch.
852
01:04:20,626 --> 01:04:25,979
Yes, other than that, you know,
she didn't really talk about it too much.
853
01:04:26,048 --> 01:04:27,363
(PEOPLE SCREAMING)
854
01:04:27,367 --> 01:04:29,232
{\an8}GIRL: Wait, guys!
855
01:04:29,301 --> 01:04:31,517
{\an8}(PEOPLE LAUGHING)
856
01:04:34,790 --> 01:04:38,574
JASON: Well, Kim didn't show me till about
a year after she got back from camp
857
01:04:38,644 --> 01:04:41,027
the stuff that she'd taken
on her mobile phone.
858
01:04:41,096 --> 01:04:43,245
INTERVIEWER: So, why'd
you decide to tell June?
859
01:04:44,483 --> 01:04:47,617
Well, if we didn't tell June,
860
01:04:47,686 --> 01:04:49,552
then it would be like
we were hiding something.
861
01:04:49,622 --> 01:04:52,855
So, I don't know why...
862
01:04:54,593 --> 01:04:58,127
I don't know why, but why not?
863
01:04:58,196 --> 01:05:00,230
GIRL: Smile for me!
864
01:05:00,299 --> 01:05:01,297
Smile.
865
01:05:01,367 --> 01:05:04,116
They're a little
bit tipsy, that's all.
866
01:05:04,186 --> 01:05:06,786
JUNE: Jason told us
about the phone footage
867
01:05:06,856 --> 01:05:09,271
that the girls had
taken at Lake Mungo.
868
01:05:09,341 --> 01:05:10,923
(GIRLS LAUGHING)
869
01:05:17,299 --> 01:05:20,149
The other girls
were looking so happy
870
01:05:20,218 --> 01:05:23,903
and she looked quite forlorn.
871
01:05:23,973 --> 01:05:28,625
I was worried. I became convinced
that something had happened to her.
872
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,116
{\an8}GIRL: So, just get a little bit.
Just some of it.
873
01:05:37,185 --> 01:05:40,420
JUNE: Kate's phone footage
was taken later that night
874
01:05:40,489 --> 01:05:43,156
once the girls had spread
out over the lunettes.
875
01:05:43,225 --> 01:05:44,657
GIRL: ...anywhere.
876
01:05:44,726 --> 01:05:46,526
I think that we need
to get a photo.
877
01:05:46,595 --> 01:05:51,314
GIRL 2: Like Africa.
Like the desert.
878
01:05:51,383 --> 01:05:55,034
JUNE: There was an image
of Alice, very hard to decipher,
879
01:05:55,104 --> 01:05:58,271
in the bottom of the frame
kneeling under a tree.
880
01:06:00,542 --> 01:06:02,474
It was only after viewing
the clip several times
881
01:06:02,544 --> 01:06:05,778
that we realized
what she was doing.
882
01:06:05,847 --> 01:06:07,880
She was burying something.
883
01:06:11,220 --> 01:06:14,954
INTERVIEWER: I mean, did you know
what had happened that night with Alice?
884
01:06:15,023 --> 01:06:16,055
No.
885
01:06:17,893 --> 01:06:21,227
I knew she'd lost her phone.
886
01:06:21,297 --> 01:06:25,531
I knew she was upset
because that was pretty obvious.
887
01:06:25,601 --> 01:06:27,216
But I didn't know
why she was upset.
888
01:06:29,255 --> 01:06:31,120
She didn't say that
she'd seen anything,
889
01:06:31,190 --> 01:06:32,955
she didn't really
say anything to me.
890
01:06:33,025 --> 01:06:37,927
I didn't really, perhaps, take it
that seriously at the time.
891
01:06:37,997 --> 01:06:39,762
You know, it was like context.
892
01:06:39,782 --> 01:06:41,997
You know, we were
just having a good time
893
01:06:42,067 --> 01:06:44,183
and I just thought
she'd gotten a bit upset.
894
01:06:55,864 --> 01:06:57,913
JUNE: It started
simply enough.
895
01:06:58,884 --> 01:07:01,283
Alice left the group
896
01:07:01,354 --> 01:07:04,937
and started walking off
by herself.
897
01:07:06,859 --> 01:07:09,942
But it was... Obviously,
something was distressing her.
898
01:07:11,914 --> 01:07:14,914
And we wanted to try
and find out what it was.
899
01:07:31,733 --> 01:07:35,584
RUSSELL: We understood from the phone video
that she'd buried something.
900
01:07:35,654 --> 01:07:38,003
We had an idea
where the tree was
901
01:07:38,073 --> 01:07:41,757
because of what we could see
from the video.
902
01:07:43,862 --> 01:07:46,012
We didn't really want to go down
during the day time
903
01:07:46,081 --> 01:07:49,649
because, you know,
we didn't want to be digging,
904
01:07:49,718 --> 01:07:51,851
you know, where tourists were.
905
01:07:54,289 --> 01:07:56,439
So, we decided to go at night.
906
01:08:05,234 --> 01:08:07,133
(INDISTINCT WHISPERING)
907
01:08:13,842 --> 01:08:17,743
June and I started digging
and after a bit,
908
01:08:19,648 --> 01:08:23,449
June said she'd found something
and she pulled out a plastic bag.
909
01:08:23,519 --> 01:08:29,121
And inside the plastic bag
there was Ali's favorite necklace,
910
01:08:29,191 --> 01:08:31,757
her ring, her watch,
her mobile phone.
911
01:08:33,245 --> 01:08:36,545
Her most precious things
912
01:08:36,616 --> 01:08:39,515
buried out here
on a school camp,
913
01:08:39,585 --> 01:08:42,584
and we didn't know
why she did that.
914
01:08:42,655 --> 01:08:44,921
I mean, we knew from the video
that she'd buried something,
915
01:08:44,991 --> 01:08:47,556
but we didn't know what it was.
916
01:08:50,729 --> 01:08:52,194
RUSSELL: It's low on battery.
917
01:09:11,483 --> 01:09:13,449
RAY ON TAPE:
Are you scared of dying?
918
01:09:15,154 --> 01:09:17,419
Yeah, of course
I'm scared of dying.
919
01:09:17,489 --> 01:09:19,322
Isn't everyone scared of dying?
920
01:09:25,263 --> 01:09:29,465
Would you like to tell me a little bit
about what happens in these dreams?
921
01:09:31,570 --> 01:09:36,438
I feel like something bad
is gonna happen to me.
922
01:09:36,508 --> 01:09:39,909
I feel like something bad
has happened.
923
01:09:39,978 --> 01:09:42,978
It hasn't reached me yet,
but it's on its way.
924
01:09:46,085 --> 01:09:47,983
And it's getting closer.
925
01:09:49,588 --> 01:09:51,553
And I don't feel ready.
926
01:09:51,623 --> 01:09:54,857
I feel like I can't do anything.
927
01:10:08,440 --> 01:10:10,239
JUNE: At some point,
928
01:10:10,308 --> 01:10:15,544
this figure came towards her
from out of the darkness.
929
01:10:15,614 --> 01:10:18,781
RUSSELL: I recognized the face as
soon as I saw it on the phone video.
930
01:10:18,851 --> 01:10:23,969
It was the same face of the body
that I had identified at the dam.
931
01:10:25,323 --> 01:10:28,157
It was Ali's body
and Ali's face.
932
01:10:36,051 --> 01:10:41,453
There is absolutely
no rational explanation
933
01:10:41,524 --> 01:10:45,858
for what she saw on that phone.
934
01:10:55,721 --> 01:10:57,753
(SHOUTING INDISTINCTIVELY)
935
01:11:03,529 --> 01:11:05,461
Stay far away from me.
936
01:11:24,183 --> 01:11:25,797
Oh, my God, they're coming.
937
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:27,383
Stay away!
938
01:11:40,432 --> 01:11:43,799
(GIRLS SCREAMING)
939
01:11:43,869 --> 01:11:49,738
JUNE: I am convinced that
Alice knew she was going to die.
940
01:11:49,808 --> 01:11:50,956
I'm convinced of that.
941
01:11:51,025 --> 01:11:54,227
GIRL: Bundle up,
bundle up, bundle up.
942
01:11:54,296 --> 01:11:59,081
I think the figure at Lake Mungo
was an omen for her.
943
01:11:59,151 --> 01:12:03,986
The burial of her
possessions was symbolic,
944
01:12:04,056 --> 01:12:05,655
it was a ritual.
945
01:12:09,428 --> 01:12:13,229
RUSSELL: No, I was never convinced
that Ali believed she was gonna die.
946
01:12:13,299 --> 01:12:17,099
You know, she had morbid thoughts, sure.
I mean, who doesn't?
947
01:12:17,169 --> 01:12:21,487
And she had nightmares that upset her,
and enough to consult Ray.
948
01:12:25,994 --> 01:12:27,760
I don't know that anybody's
really convinced
949
01:12:27,829 --> 01:12:29,678
that they're gonna die.
950
01:12:33,535 --> 01:12:35,000
INTERVIEWER: And what about
the image at Lake Mungo?
951
01:12:35,069 --> 01:12:38,237
How do you think Alice
would have explained that?
952
01:12:38,307 --> 01:12:40,723
How could she have explained it?
953
01:12:46,865 --> 01:12:49,097
Look, I think Ali saw a ghost.
954
01:12:50,636 --> 01:12:54,336
But she wasn't to know
that it was her own.
955
01:12:54,406 --> 01:12:56,489
I believe she recorded a ghost.
956
01:12:56,558 --> 01:13:00,292
I believe she recorded
the future coming to get her.
957
01:13:18,063 --> 01:13:20,863
JUNE: We had found out
about the Tooheys,
958
01:13:20,933 --> 01:13:23,649
Ray, and what had
happened at Lake Mungo.
959
01:13:25,204 --> 01:13:28,204
And by the time
we returned home,
960
01:13:29,942 --> 01:13:32,508
the house felt
different. It was...
961
01:13:34,413 --> 01:13:35,561
Calm.
962
01:13:44,657 --> 01:13:50,826
I think that Alice wanted us
to know more about her.
963
01:13:50,896 --> 01:13:54,714
She wanted us to know
who she really was,
964
01:13:56,335 --> 01:13:57,799
before she...
965
01:13:58,971 --> 01:14:01,387
You know, before
she could leave.
966
01:14:06,628 --> 01:14:07,993
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
967
01:14:08,063 --> 01:14:10,396
In the weeks and months
after Lake Mungo,
968
01:14:10,465 --> 01:14:13,966
we started to feel
like a family again.
969
01:14:15,537 --> 01:14:17,486
It just crept up on us, really.
970
01:14:17,556 --> 01:14:21,240
We were a little
battered and wobbly,
971
01:14:21,309 --> 01:14:23,359
but we were a family
all the same.
972
01:14:23,429 --> 01:14:25,043
(ALL LAUGHING)
973
01:14:32,020 --> 01:14:33,151
-Hi, Ray.
-Nice to see you, Russell.
974
01:14:33,221 --> 01:14:35,120
Yeah, you too.
Nice. Come in.
975
01:14:35,190 --> 01:14:36,989
JUNE: Ray called
out of the blue
976
01:14:37,059 --> 01:14:39,625
and said he was going
to be coming through town
977
01:14:39,695 --> 01:14:44,396
and asked if it was all right if he
could come round and visit.
978
01:14:44,466 --> 01:14:46,031
Six months had gone by,
979
01:14:46,101 --> 01:14:50,969
and I just felt that
under the circumstances,
980
01:14:51,039 --> 01:14:53,522
I didn't think
it could do any harm.
981
01:14:57,328 --> 01:15:01,297
RUSSELL: I think we all
felt that after Mungo,
982
01:15:01,366 --> 01:15:05,534
in our own ways, there'd been closure,
I suppose, to a degree.
983
01:15:05,603 --> 01:15:08,053
And, you know,
for each of us it's different.
984
01:15:08,123 --> 01:15:11,189
And for each of us,
we've made our own peace.
985
01:15:18,066 --> 01:15:23,201
It seems strange to me that
Ali should withdraw so abruptly.
986
01:15:23,271 --> 01:15:28,273
And we didn't help her,
we didn't change anything.
987
01:15:28,343 --> 01:15:33,813
I think we just collectively made
a decision to move forward.
988
01:15:34,766 --> 01:15:37,783
And, you know, moving
989
01:15:37,853 --> 01:15:41,787
was really a big part of all that...
Deciding to move.
990
01:15:44,742 --> 01:15:46,475
(PEOPLE CHATTERING)
991
01:15:49,447 --> 01:15:51,864
(UPBEAT MUSIC
PLAYING ON SPEAKER)
992
01:16:00,408 --> 01:16:03,142
JUNE: It will be difficult
to leave the house.
993
01:16:04,513 --> 01:16:07,346
Sometimes, you know,
I just forget that...
994
01:16:10,051 --> 01:16:12,952
She's not coming back.
995
01:16:14,590 --> 01:16:15,855
I forget.
996
01:16:46,621 --> 01:16:49,555
RAY: Okay.
Close your eyes
997
01:16:51,393 --> 01:16:55,344
and imagine that you're back
standing outside the house.
998
01:16:55,414 --> 01:16:56,445
Mmm-hmm.
999
01:16:56,515 --> 01:16:58,063
Can you see it?
1000
01:17:02,470 --> 01:17:04,236
Go inside the house.
1001
01:17:06,741 --> 01:17:09,140
I'm going through
the front door.
1002
01:17:11,713 --> 01:17:12,861
And...
1003
01:17:16,034 --> 01:17:18,834
Walking down the hall
towards Alice's room.
1004
01:17:25,260 --> 01:17:27,709
ALICE: Someone's there.
1005
01:17:27,779 --> 01:17:29,945
I think someone's
coming down the hall.
1006
01:17:30,014 --> 01:17:31,446
JUNE: Door's open.
1007
01:17:34,069 --> 01:17:35,934
Do you know who it is?
1008
01:17:47,899 --> 01:17:49,798
Do you want to go inside?
1009
01:17:51,152 --> 01:17:52,251
Yeah.
1010
01:17:54,489 --> 01:17:55,420
Okay.
1011
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:08,333
What do you see?
1012
01:18:08,402 --> 01:18:09,400
ALICE: It's my mum.
1013
01:18:11,890 --> 01:18:14,456
What's she saying?
1014
01:18:14,525 --> 01:18:17,259
She's not...
She's not saying anything.
1015
01:18:23,868 --> 01:18:26,301
I don't think
she knows I'm there.
1016
01:18:30,258 --> 01:18:31,890
Alice isn't here.
1017
01:18:33,494 --> 01:18:35,027
She's not here.
1018
01:18:36,798 --> 01:18:38,247
What's happening, Alice?
1019
01:18:39,918 --> 01:18:42,050
Are you talking to her?
Is she talking to you?
1020
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:43,719
She's going now.
1021
01:18:46,091 --> 01:18:48,023
She's leaving the room.
1022
01:18:50,962 --> 01:18:52,327
She's gone.
1023
01:18:53,014 --> 01:18:54,630
Open your eyes.
1024
01:19:06,995 --> 01:19:08,193
(SIGHS)
1025
01:19:48,837 --> 01:19:50,435
ALICE: She's going now.
1026
01:19:53,074 --> 01:19:54,973
She's leaving the room.
1027
01:20:04,068 --> 01:20:05,500
All the way.
1028
01:20:24,856 --> 01:20:26,221
ALICE: She's gone.
1029
01:21:09,401 --> 01:21:13,285
(ALL SINGING)