1
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:20,000
Okay.
2
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,400
Where were
these found, guys?
3
00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:27,900
Green one on
the left side there,
4
00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:29,700
red one
on the right side.
5
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,800
Don't let nobody come up here.
Nobody.
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00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,200
The police in
West Memphis, Arkansas
7
00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:34,700
confirmed today that three young
boys were brutally murdered.
8
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,800
The bodies of Weaver
elementary school second graders
9
00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:40,500
Steven branch, Christopher
Byers, and Michael Moore
10
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,800
were pulled from
a shallow creek earlier today.
11
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,600
There are rumors that the boys
may have been sexually mutilated
12
00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:47,800
The police say that they do not yet
13
00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:49,600
have any suspects
in the case.
14
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,200
The missing 8-year-old boys
were discovered
15
00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:53,400
in an area known as
Robin Hood Hills,
16
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,000
a secluded patch of woods
17
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,900
behind the
blue beacon truck wash
18
00:01:56,900 --> 00:01:58,900
along interstate 40
in West Memphis.
19
00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,800
Imagine all the evil
that you could think of,
20
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,500
how someone
could be murdered
21
00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:14,400
and that's how these
three children died.
22
00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:18,100
No family should
have to go through this,
23
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,300
unfortunately, it's gonna
happen again somewhere,
24
00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:22,300
another town.
25
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,200
It's gonna happen again,
I'm sure.
26
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,400
A lot of bad people
out there in the world.
27
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,000
I don't know why these
three little boys were murdered.
28
00:02:32,100 --> 00:02:35,000
Did they see something they
were not supposed to see?
29
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,500
Did they hear things
they were not supposed to hear?
30
00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:38,800
I do not know that.
31
00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:41,300
I see no reason,
I see no motive
32
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,400
for why these three
little boys were murdered.
33
00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:50,300
Live from KAIT 8 TV...
34
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,500
Good neighbors
you can turn to
35
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,100
for news, weather
and sports.
36
00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:03,800
This is KAIT 8 news.
37
00:03:04,900 --> 00:03:06,600
Good evening,
I'm Diana Davis.
38
00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:08,100
And I'm Tony Brooks.
39
00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,000
In a statement given to police
obtained by a Memphis newspaper
40
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,000
17-year-old
Jessie Misskelley
41
00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,200
allegedly confesses
to watching two other suspects
42
00:03:16,300 --> 00:03:18,300
choke, rape,
and sexually mutilate
43
00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:20,400
three west Memphis
second graders.
44
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,000
Jenna Newton reports.
45
00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:24,000
According to
the published report
46
00:03:24,100 --> 00:03:26,700
Misskelley told police
he watched 18-year-old
47
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:27,900
Damien Echols,
48
00:03:28,100 --> 00:03:30,400
and 16-year-old
Jason Baldwin
49
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,600
brutalize the children
with a club and a knife.
50
00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:36,400
The report says
Misskelley told police
51
00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:38,900
Echols and Baldwin
raped one of the boys
52
00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:41,500
and sexually mutilated another
53
00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:43,100
as part of a cult ritual.
54
00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:46,100
Misskelley is quoted as saying
he did not take part
55
00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:47,800
in the rape and mutilation
56
00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:49,400
but that he helped subdue
57
00:03:49,500 --> 00:03:51,600
one victim who tried to escape.
58
00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:54,400
At a press conference,
inspector Gary Gitchell said
59
00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:58,000
the case against the accused
teens is very strong.
60
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,400
One a scale of 1
to 10, how solid is the case?
61
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:01,400
Eleven.
62
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,100
It appears satanic worship
63
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,200
may have played
a role in the murders.
64
00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:12,200
Since the very beginning
of the investigation
65
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,000
people all around west Memphis
have come forward
66
00:04:15,100 --> 00:04:17,900
with stories
of satanic cults.
67
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,100
Rev. Tommy Stacy's church
is down the street
68
00:04:21,300 --> 00:04:23,200
from where the bodies
were found.
69
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,700
One year ago Damien Echols
told the church's youth minister
70
00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:28,700
he had a pact with the devil
71
00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:30,700
and he was going to hell.
72
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,800
I do know that
my youth director
73
00:04:35,100 --> 00:04:37,300
talked to Damien extensively
74
00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:39,300
at the revival that we had
75
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,900
and he told him
that he could not be saved.
76
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,700
That he could not
give his heart to Jesus
77
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,600
and my youth director then
78
00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:48,700
tried to get him
to take a Bible
79
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,000
and he made the statement
that he could not take a Bible
80
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,500
because if he did,
the rest of 'em would get him.
81
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,500
In west Memphis,
Jenna Newton,
82
00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,400
KAIT 8 night news.
83
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,600
Christopher never
hurt anybody.
84
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,100
He had a gentle,
loving and giving heart.
85
00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:05,900
And they crucified him
in those woods,
86
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,900
and they humiliated
his little body.
87
00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:12,500
They took
his little manhood
88
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,400
before he even
knew what it was.
89
00:05:16,900 --> 00:05:18,400
And I hate 'em for it.
90
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,200
I've never hated anybody
in my life.
91
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:25,700
And I hate these three.
92
00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:30,800
And the mothers
93
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:32,900
that bore them.
94
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:36,700
I can't imagine...
95
00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:41,700
What was going
through Michael's mind.
96
00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:44,800
Was he...
97
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,100
Calling for me?
98
00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,700
How long did they
leave him there tied up
99
00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,000
on that ditch bank before
they decided to kill him?
100
00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,400
What were they
doing to him?
101
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,100
Was he conscious
or unconscious?
102
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,900
Did he watch
the other two boys...
103
00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:06,800
Get cut?
104
00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:09,500
He was really being
killed by real monsters.
105
00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:23,800
On TV!
106
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:24,900
Pam, first of all
107
00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:27,700
what are you holding
in your hand there?
108
00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:30,300
It's Stevie's
boy scout,
109
00:06:31,100 --> 00:06:32,600
I got it
back yesterday.
110
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,000
And, I've been wearing it
around my head like this.
111
00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:40,300
Did he
like scouting?
112
00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,400
Oh, he loved it,
he loved it.
113
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:43,800
He loved it.
114
00:06:44,500 --> 00:06:46,800
Do you blame
yourself for this?
115
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,800
I have, I have,
116
00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:51,700
I have been
on a guilt trip about it
117
00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:54,900
but, it wasn't my fault
118
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:55,800
I was at work.
119
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,400
Have you contemplated
joining Stevie?
120
00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:00,200
Have I?
121
00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:03,700
Have you thought
about suicide?
122
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:04,900
Have I?
123
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:08,800
Uh, "suicide"?
124
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,200
I felt like dying,
but not suicide, no,
125
00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:15,000
not suicide.
126
00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,100
Do you feel that the people
that did this were worshipping--
127
00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:19,200
Satan?
128
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:20,400
Yes, I do.
129
00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:21,500
Why?
130
00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:23,200
Just look at the freaks.
131
00:07:23,900 --> 00:07:25,600
Just look at 'em.
132
00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,600
They look like punks.
133
00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,500
Little Jessie told me
he didn't do it,
134
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,000
didn't have anything
to do with it, he wasn't there.
135
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,400
I believe him.
136
00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:05,900
I think the cops
just can't find who done it...
137
00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:09,700
And they gotta
put it on somebody.
138
00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:14,600
I wanna tell the whole world
my son's innocent
139
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,600
because I know
he is innocent.
140
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,000
I know where he was
141
00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:22,300
and I know he's innocent
142
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,500
and I wanna tell the world
and I want the world to know.
143
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,400
This boy
is not capable
144
00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:32,900
of the crime
145
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,700
that he has
been arrested for.
146
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,500
I've seen him
take a little kitten
147
00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:39,900
and love it just like
148
00:08:40,100 --> 00:08:41,700
you'd love a little baby.
149
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:43,700
It's like a nightmare,
150
00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:46,400
a nightmare that
you can't wake up from.
151
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,000
Our son is innocent.
152
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,300
We intend to prove it.
153
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,600
"Yea, though I
walk through the valley
154
00:08:56,700 --> 00:08:58,400
"of the shadow of death
155
00:08:58,900 --> 00:09:00,800
"I shall fear no evil.
156
00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:03,100
And I'm not
scared of the devil.
157
00:09:03,700 --> 00:09:06,000
I gotta know who my comforter is.
158
00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:09,200
"Thy rod and thy staff
comfort me."
159
00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:12,400
And I thank you lord
for lettin' me be able
160
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,400
to believe in that
with all my heart.
161
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,800
I hope y'all really believe
in your master the Satan,
162
00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:21,500
that sleuthfoot,
devil himself,
163
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,200
because he's not
gonna help ya.
164
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,200
He's gonna laugh at ya,
mock at ya, and torture ya.
165
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:27,900
He didn't need your help.
166
00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:30,300
The devil's got
all the devils he needs.
167
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,600
The Good Lord said Lucifer,
168
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,100
and a third of the angels
were cast from heaven.
169
00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:37,500
He didn't need them,
but he took their mind
170
00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:39,300
and he manipulated 'em,
171
00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:42,200
and they prayed to Satan
and they prayed to the devil
172
00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:45,100
and they had their satanic
worship services out here,
173
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,400
and they had all types
of wild homosexual orgies
174
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,700
I've been told,
175
00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:51,200
crazy things.
176
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,300
To me,
this place as I stand
177
00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,300
is like hell on earth
178
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,500
because I know
that three babies
179
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,500
were killed right out here
were I stand.
180
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,100
I know my son was castrated
181
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,600
and possibly
laid there on that bank
182
00:10:08,700 --> 00:10:09,800
and bled to death.
183
00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:11,600
I know he was choked.
184
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,500
I know one boy's head
was beat in beyond recognition.
185
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,900
I know one little boy
was skinned
186
00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:19,600
almost like an animal,
187
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,200
cut, had to shave his head,
188
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:25,400
had all types
189
00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:26,800
of injures to the head
190
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000
where they just
kept beating him
191
00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:30,900
and poundin' on him,
and killin' him and killin' him.
192
00:10:31,300 --> 00:10:32,700
It's like they enjoyed it,
193
00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,200
they killed them
two or three times.
194
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,400
Jessie Misskelley Jr,
195
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,000
Jason Baldwin,
196
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,700
Damien Echols,
197
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,100
I hope your master the devil
198
00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:45,800
does take you soon.
199
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,000
I want you to
meet him real soon.
200
00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:50,400
And the day you die
201
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,400
I'm gonna praise God
202
00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:54,100
and I make you
a promise,
203
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:55,700
the day you die,
204
00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:58,300
every year on May 5th
205
00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:00,700
I'm gonna come
to your graveside,
206
00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:02,400
I'm gonna spit on you,
207
00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:05,600
I'm gonna curse
the day you were born,
208
00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:07,800
and I'm sure
while I'm standin' there
209
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,400
I'm gonna have to have
other bodily functions
210
00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:11,800
let go upon your grave.
211
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,800
I promise you
as God is my witness
212
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,600
I'll visit all three
of your graves.
213
00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:29,700
The statement
Jessie gave to the police
214
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,400
is a lie,
it's not true.
215
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,000
I don't see why he would
do something like that
216
00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:36,100
to another person.
217
00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:38,100
I can see why they might think
I was in a cult
218
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,200
'cause I wear
Metallica t-shirts and stuff.
219
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,700
But, I'm not in
nothin' like that.
220
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,000
I couldn't kill an animal
or a person.
221
00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:50,600
I don't worship the devil
or anything like that.
222
00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:55,200
I worship God
223
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,800
like every normal person
around here does.
224
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,600
I got a favorite pet,
my pet iguana.
225
00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:04,900
Had her for a little
over a year now.
226
00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:07,700
I usually go fishin'
by myself,
227
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,700
right in my backyard.
228
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,200
Just go out there, and my
pet cat would be out there
229
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:13,500
his name's Charlie.
230
00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:16,900
Whenever I catch a fish
I always give it to him.
231
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,300
I didn't kill these
three little boys.
232
00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:21,400
I didn't kill
those three little boys.
233
00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:23,500
They were under
a lot of pressure
234
00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:25,400
they had to find somebody
235
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:26,900
to lay this off on
236
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,100
before people
started losin' their jobs.
237
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:31,600
The public was
gettin' real upset
238
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,500
sayin' the cops were incompetent,
239
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,600
couldn't do their jobs,
they had to do something fast.
240
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,000
And we were really
the obvious choice
241
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,600
because we stood out
from everybody else.
242
00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:48,700
This all worked out
to their advantage.
243
00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:03,500
No one's gonna be saying
that you're stupid or you're dumb,
244
00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:05,900
or making fun of you,
245
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:08,900
but the court's gonna be
very interested in determining
246
00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:11,500
exactly at what level
you were functioning,
247
00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:13,500
how well
you're able to read,
248
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,000
how well you're able to write,
things of that nature.
249
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,200
Does that make sense?
250
00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:21,000
So, if the court
determines that
251
00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:23,500
you are operating
252
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,200
below average,
253
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,100
then there's a possibility that
the court will not be allowed
254
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,500
or the state
will not be allowed
255
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:30,800
to impose
the death penalty against you,
256
00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:32,800
do you understand
what that means?
257
00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:34,700
We've got about 10 weeks
258
00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:36,700
before the trial
comes up in January.
259
00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:41,400
Are you looking forward
to having the trial?
260
00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:43,400
A little bit.
261
00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:44,500
Not much.
262
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:55,500
Hello?
263
00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:58,000
I have a collect
call, your name please.
264
00:13:58,100 --> 00:13:58,700
Jessie.
265
00:13:58,800 --> 00:13:59,600
Will you pay?
266
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:00,300
Yes, ma'am.
267
00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:01,000
Thank you.
268
00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:03,400
Hey, son,
how ya doin'?
269
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:04,400
Alright.
270
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,200
That's good.
271
00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:08,500
My hand
still hurts.
272
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:09,800
Your hand still hurts?
273
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,200
Did you ever find out
if it was broke or not?
274
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:13,700
No, I ain't
found out.
275
00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:15,900
I can move it.
276
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,100
If you can move it,
it's not broke.
277
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:21,500
It hurts.
278
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:23,500
If you can move it,
it's not broke.
279
00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:25,900
It's gonna hurt a while 'cause
you bruised it pretty good.
280
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,000
You just gotta learn
not to hit them walls
281
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:30,400
hit somebody else.
282
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,300
There was nobody
in my room to hit.
283
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,000
Oh, okay.
284
00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:38,500
I didn't hit the wall,
I hit the commode.
285
00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:39,700
You "hit the commode"?
286
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:41,100
Yeah, I hit it
on the side.
287
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,600
I didn't even
put a dent in it either.
288
00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:47,300
That must be
a hard commode.
289
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,400
I heard that.
290
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:50,300
What time is everyone
gonna come up?
291
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:51,200
I don't know.
292
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:53,300
Y'all come up anytime,
'cause y'all be in here with me.
293
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:54,600
Well, uh...
294
00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:57,700
We'll see you Saturday.
295
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,800
They're gonna have to
go through the metal detector
296
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,100
when you come through
the front door,
297
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,500
I want everybody
to do that.
298
00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:29,300
They've got that portable thing
they can bring from Little Rock,
299
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:30,300
if you need it.
300
00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:33,100
Like the airport deal.
301
00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:36,300
We couldn't afford
no $3,000 metal detector.
302
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,200
What I planned on doin'
was usin' two portables
303
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:40,700
at this door,
304
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,000
that's why I want everybody,
outside of lawyers,
305
00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:47,000
and I want them
to come through this door.
306
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,200
There's a potential
of a problem area
307
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:51,200
with the...
308
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,100
Strong feelings
of the family,
309
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:55,600
and that's
to be understood
310
00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:58,500
so, security, not only coming
in and out of the courtroom
311
00:15:58,900 --> 00:15:59,800
is a problem,
312
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,200
but keeping the onlookers
and the family
313
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,500
and people segregated
314
00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,100
from the accused
is another problem
315
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:09,500
that you'll have, Darwin.
316
00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:11,800
My intention was
to bring this boy in
317
00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:13,500
before, long before court
318
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:15,400
and have him in sight.
319
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,100
Obviously I'm very
concerned about security.
320
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,800
Simply because of
the death threats
321
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,100
that have happened,
322
00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:24,500
but I don't wanna give
the jury the impression,
323
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:26,600
if we have
20 state troopers
324
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,600
and 50 county deputies,
325
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,800
it's gonna give
the impression to the jury
326
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,900
that my client is
a very dangerous person
327
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:34,800
which he's not,
328
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,900
and I don't want the jury
to get the wrong impression,
329
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,700
I don't want there to be
such a circus in the courtroom
330
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,700
with reporters and cameras
331
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,000
that the jury forgets about
what they're here for
332
00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:46,800
and that is
to administer justice.
333
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,100
We expect the
proof's going to show
334
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,600
that this defendant confessed,
335
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,400
that he was not coerced...
336
00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:00,300
We do not contend that the
proof's going to show
337
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,100
that every word that
came out of his mouth
338
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:03,500
was the truth.
339
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:05,400
Ladies and
gentlemen of the jury
340
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:07,800
this statement that
Mr. Misskelley gave
341
00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:09,300
the West Memphis
police department
342
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,400
is a false story.
343
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,700
The interrogation techniques
that were deployed against him
344
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,100
at the time of his statement
on June the 3rd
345
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:20,900
rendered him
completely incapable...
346
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:24,700
They broke his will,
they scared him
347
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,600
beyond all measures.
348
00:17:27,100 --> 00:17:28,800
The proof is going to show
349
00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:30,600
that this defendant
350
00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:32,400
was an accomplice
351
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:35,700
to Damien Echols
and Jason Baldwin
352
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:37,800
in the commission of these
353
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:40,400
horrifying murders
354
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,500
and we will ask you
355
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,100
to return your
verdict of guilty
356
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:48,900
on three counts
of capital murder.
357
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,600
We don't know
what the truth is
358
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,800
but when it really
gets down to brass tacks...
359
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:01,400
His daddy and I are gonna
look him scare in the eyes
360
00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:03,400
and say, son,
did you do this?
361
00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:06,200
Was you even there?
362
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,200
That's when
we will believe.
363
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:11,500
If he told me he did it...
364
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:14,900
Which I don't
believe he did,
365
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,600
but if he told me
he did it...
366
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,400
He'd have to do his time.
367
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:21,600
Suffer the consequences.
368
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,200
If he admits to this,
369
00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:25,500
he would be
strictly on his own.
370
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:30,200
We wouldn't even send him a
dollar for a pack of cigarettes.
371
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:31,400
No, you're
wrong there.
372
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,400
Yes, we would.
373
00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:34,800
No, I would,
he's my son.
374
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,400
I'll send him money.
375
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:42,900
But, he will
have to do his time.
376
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,000
I wouldn't
give him a nickel.
377
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:48,800
He's my son.
378
00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:50,600
We can be talkin' about...
He's my flesh and blood.
379
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:52,900
We could be
talking about my son.
380
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:57,800
If my son did something
that horrible.
381
00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:00,500
No, I wouldn't
give him a nickel.
382
00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:01,600
Let him suffer.
383
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:03,000
You can't turn
your blood away.
384
00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:05,200
I don't know how
you say you could,
385
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,000
and we're gonna have
a problem over this.
386
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:08,900
But, I know how it is
being up there in jail
387
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:09,900
without anything.
388
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:11,400
Well, that's
beside the point,
389
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,000
if he's guilty
390
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,500
if he's guilty of doing this
to these little boys.
391
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:19,200
No.
392
00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:20,000
He's not.
393
00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:23,100
Well I'm saying
he's not too.
394
00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:24,000
But,
395
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,400
if he happens to--
If it's proven.
396
00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:31,000
No, forget it, no.
397
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:32,600
No.
398
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:34,500
I don't believe
he did it.
399
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,500
I'll never
believe he did it.
400
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:45,300
This is to Jessie Jr.
401
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,200
Today's his 18th birthday.
402
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:49,400
And I haven't seen him
403
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:51,700
I don't know where
to go see him at,
404
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,300
I'm gonna sing
"happy birthday" to him.
405
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,900
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
406
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,800
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
407
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,500
♪ Happy birthday dear Jessie ♪
408
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,800
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
409
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,900
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
410
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,200
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
411
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:24,900
♪ Happy birthday dear Jessie ♪
412
00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:29,000
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
413
00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:32,300
And don't smoke too much.
414
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,900
Now, he's legal
to get 'em, ain't he?
415
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,700
Yeah, he's
legal to smoke now.
416
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,100
I may not be
his biological mother
417
00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:48,200
but giving birth
don't make a parent,
418
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,800
and I've had him
since he was four...
419
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,400
And it took me
about a year
420
00:20:56,500 --> 00:20:58,800
to assure that little boy
I was gonna be here for him,
421
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:00,800
he wouldn't wanna
go to school
422
00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:03,200
he wouldn't
go outside and play
423
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,800
because was afraid I wouldn't
be here when he came in
424
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,700
and when he was in kindergarten
if he'd come in
425
00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:11,400
and I happened not to be
where he can see me
426
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:12,700
when he first come in
427
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:14,800
he would be hysterical
when I got to him.
428
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:16,800
And...
429
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,600
I've always known that...
430
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:23,400
He was...
431
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,300
He had a problem.
432
00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:27,900
And I,
433
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:30,700
I've always been
real protective of him.
434
00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:34,300
My mom sent me this one.
435
00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:38,700
"There are
all sorts of sons
436
00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:40,900
"sons can be slouchy
437
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,400
"sons can be sweet
438
00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:44,200
"sons can be grouchy...
439
00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:47,000
"Sons can be neat
440
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,200
"sons can be broke
441
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,800
"sons can be well-to-do...
442
00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:54,100
But no son could ever be
loved more than you."
443
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:55,800
And it says
"happy birthday".
444
00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:58,200
I cry a lot
when I'm in here
445
00:21:58,300 --> 00:22:00,200
'cause I miss my family
and everything.
446
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:03,300
And I just cry a lot.
447
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:05,900
After that, I go to bed,
448
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,400
try to sleep.
449
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:11,900
My name is Ella Sanders,
450
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:14,000
my son was
Antonio Sanders,
451
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:15,800
and he got killed,
452
00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:17,900
Halloween night, 1990.
453
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:19,900
My name is Brenda McClaine
454
00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:22,100
and my brother
was stabbed to death.
455
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:23,400
I'm Brenda East
456
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:26,300
and my son, Robert,
23 at the time
457
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,000
was murdered
in 1990.
458
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,400
My name's Anne Wallen
459
00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:32,300
my daughter was
Sheila Dixon.
460
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:35,800
She was murdered
January the 12th of '91.
461
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:43,500
I'm Wanda Ranie.
462
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,100
My daughter was murdered,
463
00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:49,300
June the 27th,
464
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,500
we think,
we're not sure,
465
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,900
they're calling it
a crime of passion.
466
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:57,000
They not only
throwed her out
467
00:22:57,300 --> 00:22:59,200
and let her lay
two weeks,
468
00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:01,000
he poured acid on her
469
00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:02,400
to deteriorate her body.
470
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,700
I didn't
have the pleasure...
471
00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:13,500
Of telling
my daughter good-bye.
472
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:16,700
Funeral was
closed casket...
473
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:20,300
And this is what
I had on the casket.
474
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,600
And it's still
very unreal to me.
475
00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:26,700
When the telephone rings
I expect it to be her.
476
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,500
My name's Todd Moore.
477
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:32,200
My son was Mark Moore,
478
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,500
he was murdered along with
479
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:36,700
Christopher Byers
and Steven Branch
480
00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:38,600
May 5th, 1993.
481
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,900
I cannot
describe the pain...
482
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:51,200
That my family
has went through
483
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:52,800
they didn't
just kill my son
484
00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:54,100
they killed part of me.
485
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:57,500
They killed a part
of my wife,
486
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:58,700
her daughter.
487
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,400
I'm so frustrated
488
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,600
because it seems like
they have so much rights,
489
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,100
we have no rights,
490
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,700
they had in the paper
the other day,
491
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:11,000
now the taxpayers
in griton county
492
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:12,400
are gonna have to
buy them a suit
493
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:14,000
because they don't want
them to go into court
494
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:16,200
looking like
what they are, criminals.
495
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,000
They're in jail,
they should wear jail clothes.
496
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,200
Why do they need to have
497
00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:22,900
a nice suit
bought by the county
498
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,000
so they
look presentable?
499
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:26,200
They don't want 'em
in shackles and chains.
500
00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:29,500
You know, these are not
boys that murdered
501
00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:31,100
our kids.
502
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:33,000
They stopped being boys
503
00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:34,500
when they planned this,
504
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,200
and I sit there
and watch their parents
505
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:39,500
comin' out of courts, crying
506
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,200
talkin' about
their son's rights.
507
00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:42,600
What about
our son's rights?
508
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,600
Where the hell was his rights
out on that ditch bank?
509
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:46,300
He had no rights,
510
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,500
he had the rights
to be brutally murdered?
511
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:52,300
To be beat to death,
an 8-year-old little boy?
512
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,100
Where was his rights?
513
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,400
I'm Diane Moore,
Michael Moore's mother.
514
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,600
Last week in Flash Market,
515
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,900
the Echol's man was in there
staring me down.
516
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:06,200
Like it was my fault
that I had a child
517
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,100
that his child
could murder.
518
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:11,600
We seen
519
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:14,600
the people that are
supporting these people,
520
00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:16,400
that look at us
521
00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:17,900
like we're scum,
522
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:19,900
and these other people
are just...
523
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,900
The greatest thing
that they've ever known,
524
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:23,900
now they wanna
525
00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:26,300
have 'em all
just dressed up
526
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,000
and act like
little choir boys in court.
527
00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:32,000
Here you go, he didn't
do anything wrong.
528
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:35,200
My son didn't do anything wrong,
he's just a boy.
529
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,300
Now, on June the 3rd
530
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,500
did you have an assignment
to locate a particular person?
531
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,700
My assignment was to contact
532
00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:46,700
Jessie Misskelley Jr.
533
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:49,900
At that time was
the defendant a suspect?
534
00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:51,000
No, sir.
535
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,500
If he was not a suspect
536
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,500
why were you assigned
to contact him?
537
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,800
He was a friend with--
538
00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:00,500
Friends with Damien Echols
539
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,400
and Jason Baldwin.
540
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,400
What, if anything,
did he tell you...
541
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,400
During this conversation
before the tape recording?
542
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:14,400
He told us
that he had attended
543
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,800
some satanic
cult-type meetings,
544
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,800
that boys,
545
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,200
along with girls
would attend,
546
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:22,700
there would be
547
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,100
sessions of sex,
548
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:27,600
orgies,
as he called them.
549
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:30,500
Uh, that...
550
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,700
Dogs and animals
551
00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:34,500
had been killed
552
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,000
and in fact
those animals,
553
00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:38,100
portions of them,
554
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:39,600
have been
eaten by the members.
555
00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:43,800
I believe
there's angels on earth,
556
00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:46,200
I believe there's
demons on earth.
557
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:49,400
And I believe as angels
try to help people,
558
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:53,100
I believe demons try to
possess and hurt people
559
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,100
to do the devil's will.
560
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:57,800
Just how angels
try to help people
561
00:26:57,900 --> 00:26:59,000
to do God's will.
562
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:04,400
♪ oh, worship the king ♪
563
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,400
♪ Of glorious above ♪
564
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,300
♪ And gratefully sing ♪
565
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,600
♪ His wonderful love ♪
566
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,700
At this time Mark
is going to sing a song
567
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,500
entitled,
"whatever it takes".
568
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,700
A beautiful song,
569
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:22,200
y'all listen to him
as he comes and shares.
570
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,800
I believe The Lord is gonna
571
00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:35,700
direct me,
guide me and lead me
572
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,000
and we're gonna
give the glory to him.
573
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:49,100
♪ There's a voice ♪
574
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,000
♪ Calling me ♪
575
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,800
♪ From an old rugged tree ♪
576
00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:58,000
♪ And it whispers ♪
577
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,200
♪ Draw closer ♪
578
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:02,900
♪ To me... ♪
579
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:07,500
♪ Leave this world ♪
580
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:09,400
♪ Far behind ♪
581
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,200
♪ There are no
lights to climb ♪
582
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:16,700
♪ And a new place ♪
583
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,000
♪ In me you will find... ♪
584
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,600
♪ For whatever ♪
585
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,600
♪ It takes ♪
586
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:30,700
♪ To draw closer ♪
587
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:32,900
♪ To you ♪
588
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,200
♪ That's what ♪
589
00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:37,200
♪ I'll be willing ♪
590
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:39,800
♪ To do... ♪
591
00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:44,000
♪ For whatever ♪
592
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,900
♪ It takes ♪
593
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:49,300
♪ To be more ♪
594
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:50,900
♪ Like you ♪
595
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:53,800
♪ That's what ♪
596
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:55,900
♪ I'll be willing ♪
597
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,000
♪ To do ♪
598
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,100
There's no doubt
in your mind
599
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,500
that about 5:30 P.M.
Jessie was sittin'--
600
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:07,900
He was sittin'
right down here.
601
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,000
I had seen the police
over there twice.
602
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,500
I'd also seen
little Jessie over there
603
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:13,900
and they
talked to him.
604
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:15,800
Police officers
talked to him.
605
00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:16,700
Yes, sir.
606
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,000
They had to find somebody
to pin this on.
607
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,600
This publicity
was getting out of hand.
608
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,700
Can you ask those folks inside
to step out for just a second?
609
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,600
I know that
I've talked to each of you,
610
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,100
if not directly,
indirectly.
611
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,900
We need to be
very, very careful
612
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,100
about who we talk to
613
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:40,500
with regard to the media
involved in this case.
614
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,400
There are several members
of the media who apparently
615
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:44,300
have no ethics
616
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,900
and have decided that they're
gonna do everything they can
617
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,900
to dig up mud
and sling mud.
618
00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:50,600
It's not gonna do anything
but hurt Jessie
619
00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:52,700
and his chances of
receiving a fair trial.
620
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,000
You, as friends of Jessie
and relatives of Jessie,
621
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:58,500
are prime targets for
these members of the press.
622
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,400
And if we just remember
the one rule is
623
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:03,700
don't talk to anybody, then we
won't have to worry about it.
624
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,400
Does that make sense?
625
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:08,300
So, again I caution you not to
talk to anybody in the press,
626
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,200
it's just
gonna hurt us, thanks.
627
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:14,500
♪ For my will ♪
628
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,700
♪ To break ♪
629
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,600
♪ That's what ♪
630
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:21,200
♪ I'll be willing ♪
631
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:25,000
♪ To do... ♪
632
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,900
♪ That's what ♪
633
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,100
♪ I'll be willing ♪
634
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:35,300
♪ To do... ♪
635
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,700
One thing I like
about this right here,
636
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,800
black powder gun,
637
00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:57,100
is they can't pull any type
of ballistics on it,
638
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,900
if by some chance you was
to shoot something with it,
639
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,900
every bullet rifles
through the chamber
640
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,800
just a little bit different.
641
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:08,700
So, they just can't pull
no ballistics off this one.
642
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:12,900
There's a few people I wouldn't
mind shooting with it.
643
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,500
But, hopefully the courts
and the justice system's
644
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,800
gonna take care of 'em.
645
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,400
If they reach prison,
they'll get took care of.
646
00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:24,700
Todd, I could save
the state a lot of money.
647
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,000
If they just let me line
them three sonofaguns up,
648
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:30,000
I'd say this one here
is for you Jessie,
649
00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:32,700
and we're gonna go
for the jug of water.
650
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,900
Oh, Jessie, I done blowed you
half in two, son!
651
00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:40,700
This one here's
for you, Damien,
652
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,300
you that black circle
right in the middle.
653
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,100
Oh, you got hurt.
654
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:48,500
Damn, that sure
looked painful, didn't it?
655
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,000
Hey, Jason?
656
00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:53,100
I want you to smile and
blow me a kiss for this one.
657
00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:56,700
Let's go back
to Jessie.
658
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,200
I just wounded him,
659
00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:01,300
I want him to bleed a little bit
like he made my baby bleed.
660
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,400
Oh, Jessie...
661
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:07,500
That breaks my heart
thinkin' about that scum.
662
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,000
'Cause this right here's all
that needs to be done to him,
663
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:12,000
shot slowly,
664
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:14,700
with a real nice firearm.
665
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,600
And it ain't got
no consideration
666
00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:18,500
or no feeling
who it's aimin' at,
667
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,200
just like they didn't
care about killing my baby.
668
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:25,700
I'd be happy with
lining them up.
669
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,900
I wouldn't have
no problem with it.
670
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:32,900
I think old Jessie's
still kickin' a little.
671
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,100
Put him out of his misery.
672
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,700
What kind of range
do we got in the courtroom?
673
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:40,000
Probably about
10 foot right here.
674
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,000
Go ahead and
waste old Jessie.
675
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,400
I don't see that bein'
much of a problem.
676
00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:46,300
No,
677
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,300
because I can just see the scum.
678
00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:51,200
That's good.
679
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,300
Go ahead,
he's wiggling,
680
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,600
alright,
681
00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:56,700
I could live with that.
682
00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:06,300
During the
course of these conversations
683
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:08,900
was anything
shown to the defendant?
684
00:33:09,100 --> 00:33:09,800
Yes, sir.
685
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,200
Alright, what was
shown to him?
686
00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:14,200
There was a picture that
Insp. Gitchell showed him.
687
00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:17,000
And what was
that a picture of?
688
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:18,400
One of the victims.
689
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,500
When I showed Jessie
this photograph,
690
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:24,000
he took it into his hand
691
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,900
and he just went back
in his chair like this,
692
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:29,500
and he just locked in on it,
693
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:31,000
fixed in
on the photograph,
694
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:33,000
and just kept staring at it
and staring at it.
695
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,300
Initially, Mr. Misskelley
696
00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:39,100
denied any involvement
whatsoever in this, didn't he?
697
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,500
Yes, sir, he did.
698
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:42,300
Officer Ridge,
699
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,200
the photograph that was just
introduced into evidence,
700
00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:47,600
depicting one of
the boy's bodies,
701
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,300
that was shown to Jessie?
702
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,100
Yes.
703
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:52,300
And this was
immediately prior to him
704
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:54,100
admitting and
telling you this story
705
00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:56,300
about being present
when the boys were killed?
706
00:33:57,100 --> 00:33:58,400
Shortly before,
yes, sir.
707
00:33:58,500 --> 00:33:59,800
Why did you guys do that?
708
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,300
There had to be
a reason to do that.
709
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:06,400
There were times when
Jessie would not be talking,
710
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,600
he's getting slower
with information,
711
00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:10,900
he's telling us things,
712
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:13,200
it's over and over,
the same thing.
713
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:14,400
Those techniques are used
714
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:15,600
to evoke a response.
715
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,600
You and Insp. Gitchell
did these things
716
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:22,300
to evoke a response.
717
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:23,100
Yes, sir.
718
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:24,700
To evoke confession.
719
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:27,300
Evoke a response,
keep him talking.
720
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,400
Did it ever occur to you
721
00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:32,900
that Mr. Misskelley
has a mental handicap?
722
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,200
No, sir, it didn't to me
on that date.
723
00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:37,100
Did you have
any special training
724
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:38,900
dealing with people
with mental handicaps?
725
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:39,600
No, sir.
726
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:43,000
Did it ever occur to you
that this was gonna scare him,
727
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:44,600
showing him a
picture of a body?
728
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,700
That it would scare him?
729
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:51,100
I don't know,
I guess he's scared
730
00:34:51,100 --> 00:34:53,000
into making a statement,
yes, sir.
731
00:34:54,700 --> 00:34:57,000
I'm getting
nervous every day.
732
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:58,700
Why?
733
00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:00,800
Why?!
734
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:01,800
Oh, okay.
735
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:03,400
That's a stupid question.
736
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:04,400
Okay.
737
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:07,500
I can barely
hold this phone.
738
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,800
It's getting
closer and closer.
739
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,300
I don't wanna
even think about it.
740
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:15,900
I can imagine what
they're gonna do to me.
741
00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:17,300
I can imagine.
742
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,100
But, I'm not gonna
think that though.
743
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:22,300
Think good thoughts,
while I'm on the phone.
744
00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:25,600
Talk about something good
while I'm on the phone.
745
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,100
Hey, you're supposed to be
talking to me,
746
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:29,000
not your friends.
747
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:30,100
He's talking about
something else.
748
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,600
These people
make me mad.
749
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:34,900
You know it?
750
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:38,400
They get to go out and
screw people and I can't.
751
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:43,900
That's what y'all do,
I can't do that.
752
00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:45,600
Well, you will later.
753
00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:48,800
I will later?
How do you know?
754
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:52,000
I mean if I can
get out, we will.
755
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:54,000
If I don't get out,
we won't.
756
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,500
What I was gonna
ask you that Sunday,
757
00:35:57,900 --> 00:36:00,000
that I dreamed about you.
758
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,200
You wouldn't believe
what I was dreaming.
759
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:04,400
It freaked me out.
760
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:05,900
Wanna hear it?
761
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:07,000
Huh?
762
00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:08,100
Yeah.
763
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:11,700
We was having sex,
alright?
764
00:36:12,900 --> 00:36:13,400
O.K.
765
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,000
We went to the bathroom,
we had sex.
766
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,500
When I was going out
the front door
767
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:20,800
we had sex right there.
768
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,400
We done it
out in the yard,
769
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,200
in front of everybody.
770
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,500
It freaked me out!
771
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,000
I woke up,
I was sweatin' bad.
772
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,800
I said I hope that dream
come true quick.
773
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:35,300
What are you gonna do
when you get off the phone?
774
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:37,100
Sneak back home.
775
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,100
Go back home?
776
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:40,700
I'm gonna go back home too,
when I get off the phone.
777
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:42,600
I wish you could.
778
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:44,300
I wish you could.
779
00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:45,300
Yeah.
780
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,000
Well, my time's up, okay?
781
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:49,700
I gotta go, okay?
782
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:50,400
I love you.
783
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:51,200
I love you too.
784
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:51,900
Bye-bye.
785
00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:20,700
Can you get
it in there?
786
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:21,500
Yeah.
787
00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:50,200
I think those two
oughta do fine.
788
00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:51,900
Yeah, I'm sure
they will be.
789
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,300
Yeah, this one's good.
790
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:56,500
This one came out.
791
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:57,200
O.K.
792
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,600
Big difference
from any other Christmas.
793
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,900
One I'll never forget.
794
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:11,800
It's the
first one without him.
795
00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:26,500
I wish you could've
been here to hear me sing.
796
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:29,000
He liked to hear me sing.
797
00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:42,900
This little Christmas tree
will stay there real well,
798
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:44,800
it's in there
tight enough,
799
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:47,000
I don't think the wind will
blow it over or anything.
800
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:49,900
C'mere and
kneel down here by me.
801
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:04,900
Oh, God, why did
you let this happen?
802
00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:07,700
Please help us
through it.
803
00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:13,800
God, please
help us through this.
804
00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:21,900
This is an enlarged
photograph of the crime scene,
805
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:23,600
this is the ditch
806
00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:25,500
where the bodies
were found,
807
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,700
Michael Moore was found
in this area at the bottom,
808
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,100
Steve Branch was found
809
00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:32,400
just behind
810
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:34,700
where these trees are
in the stream,
811
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,600
and Christopher Byers
was found just below,
812
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:39,300
that body right here.
813
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:41,500
This is exhibit 22,
814
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:44,600
which is the body
of Michael Moore,
815
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:47,600
after removing him
from the water.
816
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:49,500
The way he was found.
817
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,200
This is the body
of Steve Branch,
818
00:39:56,500 --> 00:39:58,200
Steve Branch
is the one that had
819
00:39:58,300 --> 00:40:00,700
the injures to his face.
820
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,700
Was it a
particular part of his face?
821
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:04,800
The left side.
822
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,000
This is state exhibit 24,
823
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:15,500
the body of
Christopher Byers.
824
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,300
What kind of
injures did Chris Byers have,
825
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,800
did you observe?
826
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,300
It looked as though
his penis had been removed.
827
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,700
Could you see the pictures
from where you were sitting?
828
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,600
Yeah, that's why
I had to leave.
829
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:44,400
Why?
830
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,300
Because I always--
831
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,700
Seeing my
boy the way he was,
832
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:53,500
I'll always have that picture
of what he looked like,
833
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:55,300
in my mind.
834
00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:57,200
But, you never
knew until now.
835
00:40:58,100 --> 00:40:59,700
You said early on
836
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,500
you really
didn't wanna know.
837
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,300
But, now you're hearing it,
838
00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:07,100
is it a lot harder than what
you thought it was going to be?
839
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:10,100
It's a whole lot harder
than I thought it would be.
840
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,900
It like going back
to May 5th
841
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,800
and reliving
it all over again.
842
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:50,300
Inspector, let's
talk about the things
843
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,500
that Jessie told you that
are just absolutely incorrect,
844
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,700
on page 9
of his statement,
845
00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:57,800
Jessie says that
846
00:42:58,100 --> 00:42:59,900
the murders
took place around noon,
847
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:01,800
how did you know
that was incorrect?
848
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:05,400
Because the young boys
were still in school.
849
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,100
Did at any time when he was
telling you these things
850
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,200
that you knew
were incorrect,
851
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,700
did it ever occur to you
that what he was tellin' you
852
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:14,100
was false?
853
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:15,500
His entire story
was false?
854
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:17,200
In Jessie's case,
855
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:19,800
I feel he did tell us
a good bit of the truth
856
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,600
but then they also lessened
their activity in a statement,
857
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,900
that's just common,
858
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:27,600
at least in my
20 years career.
859
00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:30,300
Is it common for the police
to simply ignore
860
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,400
these big obvious problems
and just assume,
861
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,100
that everything he's telling you
has gotta be correct?
862
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,000
Jessie simply
got confused.
863
00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:43,900
You and I
can tell the cops
864
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,000
that we know
what our rights are,
865
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:47,900
basically go to hell,
866
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,700
we're not gonna
take this and walk out.
867
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:51,500
Jessie Misskelley
has no concept
868
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,500
of being able to
leave a police station.
869
00:43:53,700 --> 00:43:55,500
The only thing
that the prosecution
870
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,600
has put on
against Jessie
871
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,400
is this wild story
that he told the police,
872
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:03,400
and I hope the fact that
there's no physical evidence
873
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:05,000
linking him
to the crime scene
874
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:07,300
is gonna have a lot
of impact on the jury.
875
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,100
We're talkin' about
reasonable doubt.
876
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,400
I think you need to deal with
lack of physical evidence,
877
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:15,000
not just to let them
get away with the fact
878
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:17,600
that they were in the water
and it all washed away.
879
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,100
A crime scene that clean
880
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,700
has to be purposely planned,
done that way.
881
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,400
The fact they
looked washed down
882
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:27,100
was not just
happenstance...
883
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:33,100
Somebody intentionally...
884
00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:35,200
Purposefully...
885
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,000
With great cunning
and intelligence
886
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:42,100
tried to get rid of...
887
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,300
Every spot of blood, semen,
888
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:48,200
mud, footprint,
889
00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:50,300
anything that
may have been there,
890
00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:52,700
they purposefully
tried to get rid of all that.
891
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:55,600
An 18, 17,
and a 16-yr-old kid,
892
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:56,900
don't pull that off.
893
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,700
I think there's a lot of
professional killers
894
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,200
who don't leave it
this clean.
895
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,800
I really do
believe that if the jury
896
00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:07,500
hears what
serial killers are like,
897
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,500
and what they do
and how they leave crime scenes,
898
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,500
the missing evidence,
the souvenirs,
899
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,200
I have know doubt there's
a serial killer going around,
900
00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:17,100
that did these murders,
he may be in Idaho now,
901
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,400
but, I don't have
any doubt about it.
902
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,000
It is somebody who knew
what they were doing,
903
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,500
had done it before,
has probably done it since then,
904
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:26,700
or will definitely
do it again.
905
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,500
Are you aware
of any personalty traits
906
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,700
of people who are likely
to falsely confess?
907
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,000
Low I.Q.
908
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,300
Highly suggestible,
909
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,100
always attempting
to solve
910
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,700
the immediate
stress factor...
911
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,500
Get the interrogators
off my back
912
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,700
and just
let me go home...
913
00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:51,000
Naively assumes
914
00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:53,200
that they can all
straighten it out later on.
915
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:55,500
It's extremely difficult
916
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,800
for the average person
to believe...
917
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:01,900
That someone would confess
to a crime they didn't do,
918
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,200
what I didn't like
about this confession
919
00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:07,400
is that most of it emanated
from questions right off the bat
920
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:09,500
without any narrative
921
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,900
of any length at all.
922
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,500
Without any descriptions
about feelings,
923
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,900
or conversations
or anything,
924
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,500
I just don't understand,
925
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,600
if he was involved
in this crime
926
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:24,000
how he made a mistake
on the time factor.
927
00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:27,500
And the thing that really
bothers me is the ligature,
928
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,700
what was used
to tie up the victims,
929
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:31,700
he certainly knows
the difference
930
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,800
between shoe laces
and a rope,
931
00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:37,800
that should've been a signal
932
00:46:37,900 --> 00:46:39,700
that something
was radically wrong.
933
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,500
That's when the questions
should've been more probing
934
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,900
to determine whether or not
he was making it up
935
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:46,700
or giving
a valid confession.
936
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,100
Out of the 100 or more people
937
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,800
that y'all talked to,
938
00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:54,200
are you aware of anybody
other then than the defendant,
939
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:55,700
who told you
940
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,100
one of the victims
941
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,900
that had their
genitals removed
942
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,700
and one of them had cuts
to the side of the face,
943
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,300
and there'd been
some grabbing of the ears?
944
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,500
There was no one else
that mentioned
945
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,900
those particular injuries,
946
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,700
and, you yourself,
947
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,600
you're pointing to the
wrong side of the cheek.
948
00:47:17,500 --> 00:47:20,300
Was there any
kind of emotional response?
949
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,000
He had tears
coming down his eyes.
950
00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:25,000
Had y'all yelled at him
951
00:47:25,100 --> 00:47:27,000
or been mean to him,
952
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:29,200
or threatened him,
or promised him anything,
953
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:30,900
or any
of those things?
954
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,300
None of those things
happened whatsoever.
955
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,900
Doctor, can you
give us some examples
956
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,100
of the police being coercive,
leading or suggestive
957
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:01,800
during the course
of the interrogation?
958
00:48:02,100 --> 00:48:02,800
Yes, I can,
959
00:48:02,900 --> 00:48:06,600
perhaps the most
powerful example,
960
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:07,600
in my opinion,
961
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,800
is the example
of the eight revisiting
962
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,700
of the question of the time
963
00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:16,400
at which
the killings occurred.
964
00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:18,500
The first example
965
00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:20,700
occurs on page three,
966
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,900
Det. Ridge says, "alright,
when did you go with them?"
967
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:26,400
Mr. Misskelley says,
"That morning",
968
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:30,000
Det. Ridge asks, "I'm not
saying when they called you,
969
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:31,600
"I'm saying
what time was it
970
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:34,400
that you were actually
there in the park?"
971
00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:38,100
Mr. Misskelley says,
"about noon."
972
00:48:38,500 --> 00:48:41,500
Det. Ridge now says,
"O kay, was it
973
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,400
after school
had let out?"
974
00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:46,300
This is immediately
after Jessie saying
975
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:47,700
"it's at noon",
976
00:48:47,900 --> 00:48:49,800
he's now suggesting
it must be later
977
00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:52,500
by saying, "is it
after school let out?"
978
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:54,800
Jessie says, "Yes".
979
00:48:55,500 --> 00:48:57,800
Det. Ridge follows up
980
00:48:57,900 --> 00:48:59,600
with his victory,
981
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,200
on page 24,
982
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,000
and this time
Det. Ridge says,
983
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:06,200
and I quote,
984
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:08,400
"Okay, the night
985
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,400
"you were in the woods,
986
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:12,600
"had you all
987
00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:13,800
been in the water?"
988
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:15,800
Jessie replies,
989
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,100
"Yeah, we'd been
in the water,
990
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:20,500
"we were in it
that night
991
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,100
playing around in it."
992
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,200
This is the first time
993
00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:25,700
in the record,
994
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:29,300
that it is directly
suggested to Jessie,
995
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:31,400
that the correct answer is
996
00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:32,900
"This happened at night",
997
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:34,800
Immediately upon
998
00:49:34,900 --> 00:49:36,400
that being suggested,
999
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:38,300
Jessie...
1000
00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:42,600
Responds by accepting
1001
00:49:42,700 --> 00:49:45,300
and now he starts
to use the word "at night",
1002
00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:48,200
where he had never
used it before,
1003
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,500
that is an influence tactic,
it is a way,
1004
00:49:51,500 --> 00:49:53,900
of getting someone
to accept something,
1005
00:49:54,900 --> 00:49:56,100
out of pressure
1006
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:57,500
and out of suggestion.
1007
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,300
But, that's one example,
1008
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:02,900
there are many other examples
of manipulation
1009
00:50:03,300 --> 00:50:04,500
on important points
1010
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:06,000
throughout this record.
1011
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:16,700
Mr. Ofshe,
1012
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,100
is your going rate
approximately $300 an hour?
1013
00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:21,300
No, that's not.
1014
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:22,100
What is it?
1015
00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:25,300
My rate is a $150 an hour
for consultation,
1016
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,400
and $300 an hour for time
spending in court
1017
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:29,800
or in deposition.
1018
00:50:30,300 --> 00:50:33,300
So if you're initially
asked to evaluate a case,
1019
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,500
you don't get
the $300 an hour
1020
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,600
unless you give an opinion
that's consistent,
1021
00:50:38,700 --> 00:50:40,800
with what the person asked you
wants to hear.
1022
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,200
They don't
call you as a witness,
1023
00:50:42,300 --> 00:50:44,300
you don't get your
$300 an hour, correct?
1024
00:50:44,700 --> 00:50:45,500
Incorrect.
1025
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,300
I don't know what
1026
00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:51,500
the terminology is
in Berkeley California,
1027
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:52,400
but...
1028
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,800
When the
defendant identified
1029
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,700
who it was
who was castrated,
1030
00:50:57,900 --> 00:50:58,900
when he indicated
1031
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,900
that one of the boys
was cut in the face,
1032
00:51:01,100 --> 00:51:03,800
you don't know and
you can't give an opinion
1033
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:06,700
that any of those questions
were coercive in nature?
1034
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:09,700
No, I can't because the record
that we are dealing with
1035
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:11,500
is very incomplete,
1036
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,700
because this
part of the record
1037
00:51:14,100 --> 00:51:15,200
is preceded,
1038
00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:17,200
as everyone agrees...
1039
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,300
By over two hours
1040
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,600
of interrogation,
1041
00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:25,000
in which many subjects
were discussed,
1042
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:26,700
for which
we have no record.
1043
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:36,800
♪ Welcome to
where time stands still ♪
1044
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,200
♪ No one leaves
and no one will ♪
1045
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,000
♪ Room is foam,
never seems to change ♪
1046
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,400
♪ Just labeled
mentally deranged ♪
1047
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:49,300
♪ Dream the same thing
every night ♪
1048
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,100
♪ I see our freedom
in my sight ♪
1049
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,500
♪ No locked doors,
no windows barred ♪
1050
00:52:55,700 --> 00:52:58,800
♪ No things to make
my brain seem scarred ♪
1051
00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:02,100
♪ Sleep my friend
and you will see ♪
1052
00:53:02,300 --> 00:53:04,700
♪ The dream is my reality ♪
1053
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,100
♪ They keep me locked up
in this cage ♪
1054
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:10,600
♪ Can't you see
it's why my brain says ♪
1055
00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:12,000
♪ Rage... ♪
1056
00:53:15,700 --> 00:53:18,200
♪ Sanitarium ♪
1057
00:53:18,900 --> 00:53:20,000
Jessie Misskelley,
1058
00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:22,200
didn't tell
the police anything
1059
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:24,000
that they
didn't already know.
1060
00:53:24,500 --> 00:53:27,500
They led him him through
this entire taped statement.
1061
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:29,700
And ladies and gentlemen
of the jury,
1062
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:31,400
we don't know what happened
1063
00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:33,000
before they turned
the tape recorder on.
1064
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,000
They didn't
videotape it,
1065
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:38,400
the officers didn't take notes
on all the questions,
1066
00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:39,800
they testified to that.
1067
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,300
They even testified that they couldn't
remember some of the things they asked him.
1068
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,200
How do we know
1069
00:53:45,500 --> 00:53:46,700
what really happened?
1070
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,100
The defense,
through bringing in,
1071
00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:52,100
so-called experts,
such as Mr. Ofshe,
1072
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,300
have tried
through smoke and mirrors
1073
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:55,600
to make it sound like,
1074
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,200
a person that confesses
to such a heinous crime,
1075
00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:01,200
and admits
their involvement
1076
00:54:01,300 --> 00:54:03,700
and gives you specific details
in the involvement,
1077
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,600
that's indicative
of someone,
1078
00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:08,500
who was forced
or coerced to confess.
1079
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:11,000
Ladies and gentlemen
of the jury,
1080
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,500
my client,
little Jessie Misskelley,
1081
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,500
is an
innocent man.
1082
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:17,800
He's innocent.
1083
00:54:18,700 --> 00:54:21,000
And I would ask you to
go back to that jury room,
1084
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,000
and bring back a verdict
that rings of justice,
1085
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,300
truth and justice,
1086
00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:28,800
and I would ask you
to bring back a verdict
1087
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,600
that you can live with
for the rest of your life.
1088
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,400
See this picture?
1089
00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:36,600
This is the Moore boy.
1090
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,300
This defendant won't look up,
1091
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:40,800
he won't look at you,
1092
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,600
but this
defendant's actions,
1093
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,100
you just
think about it,
1094
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:48,000
if this defendant
1095
00:54:48,100 --> 00:54:50,500
does not chase down
Michael Moore...
1096
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,500
If he does not run through
the woods and chase him down
1097
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:56,500
and bring him back,
1098
00:54:57,500 --> 00:54:58,800
Michael Moore lives.
1099
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:01,900
Michael Moore
gets to go home at night,
1100
00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:03,600
his parents
get to be with him.
1101
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,800
But, because of
this defendant's actions...
1102
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,900
Because of what
Jessie Misskelley Jr. did,
1103
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,600
Michael Moore's dead,
1104
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:14,500
Stevie branch is dead,
1105
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:16,400
and Chris Byers is dead,
1106
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,000
and there's no
getting around it.
1107
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,300
I think when you go back and
you apply your common sense
1108
00:55:22,300 --> 00:55:23,600
and you do what's right,
1109
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:25,700
and you think about
the evidence in this case,
1110
00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:27,100
you're gonna know
1111
00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:29,100
that what
the evidence shows is,
1112
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,100
that this defendant
ran down Michael Moore,
1113
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:35,500
that this defendant was there,
1114
00:55:35,700 --> 00:55:37,000
he was involved,
1115
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:38,200
and he's guilty
1116
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:40,400
of three counts
of capital murder.
1117
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,800
3-2-1.
1118
00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:46,200
The jury went out
at 4:20 this afternoon,
1119
00:55:46,300 --> 00:55:48,400
they'll decide if
Jessie Misskelley is guilty
1120
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:49,800
in the deaths of
Christopher Byers,
1121
00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:51,400
Michael Moore
and Steven branch.
1122
00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:53,800
Misskelley is charged
with capital murder,
1123
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,900
and, if guilty,
could get the death penalty.
1124
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,100
Two other teen-agers
charged in the crime,
1125
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,000
will be tried later this month
in Jonesborough.
1126
00:56:02,700 --> 00:56:05,200
In corning, Wayne Hoffman,
A.R.N. News.
1127
00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:07,500
Short but sweet.
1128
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,400
Can't you
twitch your nose
1129
00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:15,200
and make them come back
with a "not guilty" verdict?
1130
00:56:15,500 --> 00:56:17,300
If I could twitch my nose
and do that,
1131
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,200
I'd have been gone
a long time ago.
1132
00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:22,100
There's still hope.
1133
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:25,700
I'm not
giving up, though.
1134
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:28,300
Don't ever!
1135
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,900
Don't get in there
and get mad and go off...
1136
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,900
They tell me, "how come he
always keeps his head down?"
1137
00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:39,700
Because I was told
to keep my head down.
1138
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,300
If you'd raise up
and look around
1139
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,400
then, they'd be
saying something else.
1140
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:46,500
Don't let it bother you.
1141
00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:49,500
That's what
they're saying about Damien,
1142
00:56:50,100 --> 00:56:52,300
always stretchin' his neck,
lookin' around.
1143
00:56:53,100 --> 00:56:54,500
Damien's a good kid.
1144
00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:57,100
I guess,
I don't know!
1145
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,600
I didn't realize how
much I loved him until this.
1146
00:57:01,900 --> 00:57:04,100
I always loved him,
but this is just--
1147
00:57:04,300 --> 00:57:05,400
Well, thanks a lot!
1148
00:57:05,500 --> 00:57:07,300
You know
I always loved you,
1149
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,400
I'm just sayin'
I didn't realize how much!
1150
00:57:09,900 --> 00:57:11,100
You're coming home.
1151
00:57:13,100 --> 00:57:14,500
You gotta get out of here.
1152
00:57:14,900 --> 00:57:17,900
Just say a prayer
when the jury comes out.
1153
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:22,300
'Cause we'll
be sitting there
1154
00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:23,500
sayin' one
1155
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:25,500
for you.
1156
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:29,700
We hope we can
carry you home.
1157
00:57:43,900 --> 00:57:45,400
It's kind
of horrible.
1158
00:57:52,100 --> 00:57:54,000
You gotta
learn to control it.
1159
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,900
Alright, ladies and
gentlemen in the audience,
1160
00:58:02,500 --> 00:58:04,800
I am acutely aware that...
1161
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:06,600
You're...
1162
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,700
Feelings are all on edge,
1163
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:13,200
that there's a great deal
of emotion involved,
1164
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,300
but the court
cannot tolerate
1165
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:16,500
and will not tolerate,
1166
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:17,900
any verbal outbursts,
1167
00:58:18,100 --> 00:58:21,700
any display of
emotion whatsoever,
1168
00:58:21,900 --> 00:58:23,900
and I recognize that
that's difficult
1169
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,400
and that's why
I'm warning you in advance.
1170
00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:30,200
The verdicts
read as follows,
1171
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:33,700
"We the jury find
Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr.
1172
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,400
"Guilty of
first degree murder
1173
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:36,900
"in the death
of Michael Moore,
1174
00:58:37,300 --> 00:58:39,600
"We the jury find
Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr.
1175
00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:41,800
"Guilty of
second degree murder
1176
00:58:41,900 --> 00:58:43,500
"in the death
of Stevie branch,
1177
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,000
"We the jury find
Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr.
1178
00:58:46,100 --> 00:58:47,700
"Guilty of
second degree murder
1179
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:49,100
"in the death
of Chris Byers,
1180
00:58:49,300 --> 00:58:51,400
signed by
T.J. Williams, foreman."
1181
00:58:51,900 --> 00:58:53,600
Alright, Mr. Misskelley,
1182
00:58:53,700 --> 00:58:56,300
if you could come
around the front here
1183
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:57,000
and Dan,
1184
00:58:58,100 --> 00:59:01,500
Mr. Misskelley, did you hear
the jury's finding
1185
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,700
and the reading of
the verdict in your case?
1186
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:04,600
Yes, sir.
1187
00:59:04,900 --> 00:59:07,300
Do you have any
legal reason or cause
1188
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,300
to tell the court
why sentence
1189
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,700
should not be
imposed at this time?
1190
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:14,300
I heard you but
1191
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,000
you need to answer out
a little bit louder.
1192
00:59:16,100 --> 00:59:16,600
No, sir.
1193
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:17,700
Alright,
1194
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,200
Is there anything
you wanna say
1195
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,100
before sentence
is imposed?
1196
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:24,800
You have a right to
make any statement
1197
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,400
you care to
at this time.
1198
00:59:27,300 --> 00:59:29,900
Are you satisfied
with the service and advice
1199
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,600
of your attorneys
through this trial?
1200
00:59:31,700 --> 00:59:32,400
Yes, sir.
1201
00:59:33,100 --> 00:59:35,100
Alright, based upon
the jury's verdict,
1202
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,500
finding you guilty
of first degree murder
1203
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:38,800
in the death
of Michael Moore,
1204
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,700
you'll be sentenced to the
Arkansas Dept. of C orrections
1205
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:42,900
for a term of life.
1206
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,500
In the count involving
the death of Steven branch,
1207
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,400
the jury having found you guilty
of second degree murder,
1208
00:59:49,500 --> 00:59:52,500
you'll be sentenced to an
additional term of 20 years,
1209
00:59:52,700 --> 00:59:53,800
and in regard to
1210
00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:56,100
the death
of Christopher Byers,
1211
00:59:56,300 --> 00:59:59,100
the jury having found you guilty
of second degree murder,
1212
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,900
you will be sentenced to
an additional term of 20 years
1213
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,800
in the Arkansas Dept.
of Corrections,
1214
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,300
That is you will receive
a life sentence plus 40 years.
1215
01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:09,400
It's hard
to think of how
1216
01:00:09,500 --> 01:00:12,800
it would've gone
any other way,
1217
01:00:12,900 --> 01:00:15,000
but you can never
tell with a jury of 12,
1218
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:16,800
they could've found
a verdict of not guilty,
1219
01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:19,400
and we had to sit there
and tell ourselves,
1220
01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:21,100
"God grant us the serenity
1221
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,000
"to accept the things
we cannot change
1222
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,800
"the courage to
change the things we can
1223
01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:27,300
and the wisdom
to know the difference."
1224
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,100
So we had to be willing
to accept what happened,
1225
01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:32,300
and thankfully
the verdict went our way.
1226
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:34,200
There must
be mixed emotions
1227
01:00:34,300 --> 01:00:36,100
because you had
the guilty verdict
1228
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:38,600
but you still have
the loss to deal with.
1229
01:00:39,900 --> 01:00:42,700
This doesn't
change anything.
1230
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:45,000
Christopher's dead,
1231
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,400
and he was
tortured to death
1232
01:00:47,500 --> 01:00:50,000
by three murdering bastards
1233
01:00:50,100 --> 01:00:51,300
on a ditch bank,
1234
01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:52,600
he was 8 years old.
1235
01:00:53,300 --> 01:00:54,800
And guilty is guilty.
1236
01:00:55,300 --> 01:00:57,900
And I hope the little sucker,
when he hits prison,
1237
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,500
they get his ass
right off the bat!
1238
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:02,800
Because he
deserves to be
1239
01:01:02,900 --> 01:01:04,300
tortured and punished
1240
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:06,000
for the rest of his life
1241
01:01:06,100 --> 01:01:09,200
for murdering three
8 year old children!
1242
01:01:12,300 --> 01:01:14,000
How come you kept
your head down the whole time?
1243
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:17,900
Jessie, anything
you wanna say now?
1244
01:01:17,900 --> 01:01:19,300
Did you
do it, Jessie?
1245
01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:26,100
Did you do it, Jessie?
1246
01:01:33,100 --> 01:01:34,900
How are you
feeling right now?
1247
01:01:51,300 --> 01:01:52,900
Prison's not
a safe place.
1248
01:01:55,100 --> 01:01:57,000
Jessie, sweetie.
1249
01:01:58,200 --> 01:01:59,700
I'm gonna
mail him a skirt.
1250
01:02:01,900 --> 01:02:03,300
One down two to go.
1251
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,000
Hopefully the same thing
will happen to the next two,
1252
01:02:06,100 --> 01:02:07,700
and we'll get
the same verdict.
1253
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,400
They found
my son's testicles
1254
01:02:28,500 --> 01:02:30,400
in a jar of alcohol
1255
01:02:30,900 --> 01:02:32,800
in Damien Echols' house,
1256
01:02:33,900 --> 01:02:36,400
with his fingerprints
on the jar.
1257
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:38,600
Now, how do you
dispute that?
1258
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:40,900
Some idiot started
a rumor saying that
1259
01:02:41,300 --> 01:02:43,500
they found umm...
1260
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,100
Children's sexual parts
1261
01:02:49,500 --> 01:02:51,300
under my bed
or in my house.
1262
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,800
And there was no
body parts in my house.
1263
01:03:02,100 --> 01:03:04,500
I think maybe the police
had something to do with it.
1264
01:03:06,900 --> 01:03:09,500
If they can make us look bad
in front of the public,
1265
01:03:09,700 --> 01:03:12,000
people are gonna kinda
have their minds made up,
1266
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,400
before anything
ever comes out.
1267
01:03:27,100 --> 01:03:29,500
We wanna talk to you about
all this stuff in the paper
1268
01:03:29,700 --> 01:03:31,100
about a deal
with Jessie.
1269
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,200
Right now we don't know
1270
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:37,200
what his situation is,
1271
01:03:37,300 --> 01:03:40,300
although we think he is more
inclined to testify right now
1272
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,200
than he has been
at any point,
1273
01:03:43,100 --> 01:03:44,300
up to now.
1274
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,800
The Friday that
Jessie was convicted,
1275
01:03:46,900 --> 01:03:49,400
by questioning, the officers
that took him down
1276
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,600
inquired of him
what had really happened,
1277
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,900
apparently, Jessie, contrary
to somebody that was innocent,
1278
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,000
that would say things like,
"Gee, I've just been convicted,
1279
01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:00,100
I didn't do it,
what a terrible injustice",
1280
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:02,200
Jessie talked
all the way down there
1281
01:04:02,300 --> 01:04:03,600
about how
he committed the crime,
1282
01:04:03,700 --> 01:04:05,100
and specific details,
1283
01:04:05,300 --> 01:04:07,800
unfortunately we need
his testimony real bad.
1284
01:04:09,500 --> 01:04:11,300
If it was
a perfect world,
1285
01:04:12,500 --> 01:04:15,200
we would take what we
have on Jessie and leave it,
1286
01:04:15,300 --> 01:04:17,000
and we'd go and
get the other two,
1287
01:04:17,500 --> 01:04:18,900
and get them
and be happy,
1288
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:19,900
but it's not,
1289
01:04:22,100 --> 01:04:23,300
and, we need his testimony
1290
01:04:23,300 --> 01:04:25,400
to be sure we get
convictions on the other two.
1291
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:27,200
I think we're gonna
1292
01:04:27,700 --> 01:04:30,000
negotiate his
sentence down some
1293
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,100
in order to
get him to testify.
1294
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:34,300
He's not gonna
testify just
1295
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:36,700
out of the goodness
of his heart,
1296
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:38,400
The only way that
I think
1297
01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:40,400
that he will
be willing to testify,
1298
01:04:40,900 --> 01:04:42,800
is if the life sentence
is removed.
1299
01:04:46,300 --> 01:04:48,900
I do wanna say,
all is not lost,
1300
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:50,600
if he doesn't testify,
1301
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,000
but the odds are
reduced significantly.
1302
01:04:56,700 --> 01:04:58,200
We still got
some evidence.
1303
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,600
What we've got,
besides Jessie,
1304
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:02,600
is we got...
1305
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:07,900
A fiber that was found on,
1306
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:10,700
it was found
on Stevie's shirt,
1307
01:05:11,100 --> 01:05:12,800
that matched the fiber
1308
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:15,400
from Jason Baldwin's mother,
1309
01:05:15,500 --> 01:05:17,500
which is called
secondary transfer.
1310
01:05:18,700 --> 01:05:22,000
We've got
a fiber from a shirt,
1311
01:05:22,500 --> 01:05:24,100
or a couple of fibers
from a shirt
1312
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:26,100
found at Echols' house,
1313
01:05:26,700 --> 01:05:27,700
found...
1314
01:05:27,900 --> 01:05:30,800
One of 'em was on
Michael's cub scout cap,
1315
01:05:30,900 --> 01:05:32,300
another one
maybe on the shirt,
1316
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,000
that matched Damien's.
1317
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,500
Fiber evidence,
in my opinion,
1318
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:38,600
is better
than hair evidence,
1319
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,300
but they can't say
that it came from
1320
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,000
that particular garment
to exclusion of all others.
1321
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:46,000
We've got
1322
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,100
the Hollingsworth clan
1323
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,100
that says they saw Damien
out on the service road,
1324
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:53,100
we've got some...
1325
01:05:54,300 --> 01:05:55,500
Kids that say that
1326
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,900
they heard him
at a girl's softball game,
1327
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,600
overheard him say
that he killed the three boys
1328
01:06:02,900 --> 01:06:04,300
and he was gonna
kill two more
1329
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:06,100
before he
turned himself in.
1330
01:06:07,300 --> 01:06:09,100
They haven't scared them
off, like they did the other ones?
1331
01:06:09,300 --> 01:06:11,200
No, not yet.
1332
01:06:12,500 --> 01:06:13,500
We've got...
1333
01:06:14,900 --> 01:06:18,100
A guy that was
in jail with Jason
1334
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:20,400
who says that
Jason made some
1335
01:06:20,500 --> 01:06:22,300
incriminating
statements to him.
1336
01:06:22,500 --> 01:06:24,800
Now, there are some things
that they're gonna try to do
1337
01:06:24,900 --> 01:06:26,700
to attack
this kid's credibility.
1338
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,000
Then we've got the knife
that was found
1339
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:33,300
in the lake
behind Jason's house,
1340
01:06:33,500 --> 01:06:34,900
so, that's what we've got,
1341
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,200
but, that's all
basically we got.
1342
01:06:37,500 --> 01:06:40,800
You asked what the odds were of
convicting them without Jessie
1343
01:06:40,900 --> 01:06:43,100
and it's 50-50...
1344
01:06:43,100 --> 01:06:44,800
Not be good.
1345
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:55,300
The only way
he'll come up there
1346
01:06:55,300 --> 01:06:57,200
and sit down
in that witness chair
1347
01:06:57,500 --> 01:06:58,600
and testify,
1348
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:00,800
is if they cut him
a sweet deal,
1349
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,200
you take all the things that are
wrong with his statement
1350
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:07,300
and then add
to that recipe mix,
1351
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:10,900
that I'm talkin' now
because I got a sweet deal,
1352
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,800
and I'm gonna get out
in 10 years,
1353
01:07:14,300 --> 01:07:15,200
hypothetically,
1354
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:17,300
I may get out
in 10 years.
1355
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:20,700
Heck, who wouldn't sing?
1356
01:07:21,100 --> 01:07:22,700
You know
what I'm saying?
1357
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:24,500
Then, his evidence,
his statement,
1358
01:07:24,700 --> 01:07:26,900
his whole thing
looks bad.
1359
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,600
If that's their best evidence,
and trust me, it is,
1360
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,100
if they can't use
that statement against you,
1361
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:33,800
they got nothin'.
1362
01:07:34,700 --> 01:07:36,700
And this dog and pony show
is over.
1363
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:50,900
'Morning.
1364
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:53,900
Are the rumor's
false about Jessie turning?
1365
01:07:58,700 --> 01:08:00,400
Is it true that
Jessie's gonna testify
1366
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:02,100
against Damien
and Jason?
1367
01:08:02,100 --> 01:08:02,900
That's false.
1368
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:07,600
I just left Jessie
at the jail
1369
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:09,600
and he told me that
he was not gonna testify,
1370
01:08:09,700 --> 01:08:11,600
he didn't want to
get up there and lie,
1371
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,000
that the officers have been
working on him real hard,
1372
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:17,200
but, he wasn't
gonna listen to them,
1373
01:08:17,300 --> 01:08:19,500
and his decision was final,
1374
01:08:20,300 --> 01:08:22,500
but he can always
change his mind again,
1375
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:23,600
he has,
1376
01:08:23,700 --> 01:08:25,900
he's a very confused
and scared kid,
1377
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,100
and the officers
have scared him to death.
1378
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:31,900
Last night I said, Jessie,
if you get up there and lie,
1379
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:33,400
I'm gonna be
in that courtroom,
1380
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:35,500
and you're gonna have to
sit there and tell that lie,
1381
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:37,600
when you know that I'm
sitting there listening to you,
1382
01:08:38,100 --> 01:08:40,300
when you know
I know that you are lying.
1383
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:52,100
Damien,
are you in a cult?
1384
01:08:53,500 --> 01:08:55,800
Are you worried about Jessie
testifying against you?
1385
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:03,700
In looking at young people
1386
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:05,600
involved in the occult,
1387
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,900
do you see any
particular type of dress?
1388
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,100
I have personally observed
1389
01:09:11,300 --> 01:09:12,400
people wearing
1390
01:09:13,700 --> 01:09:15,000
black finger nails,
1391
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:17,400
having their
hair painted black,
1392
01:09:18,100 --> 01:09:20,100
wearing black t-shirts...
1393
01:09:21,100 --> 01:09:24,400
Sometimes they will
tattoo themselves.
1394
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:28,500
Do you have an
opinion as to whether or not
1395
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,300
there are occult overtones,
1396
01:09:31,300 --> 01:09:33,500
or evidence of
occult involvement
1397
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:35,900
in these
particular murders?
1398
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,600
Well, the date
being close to...
1399
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:42,900
Belting...
1400
01:09:43,900 --> 01:09:45,900
A holiday, may 1,
1401
01:09:46,700 --> 01:09:47,300
also...
1402
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,300
The day before
that is a holiday,
1403
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:52,500
then you go into
1404
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:54,700
the fact that some
1405
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:56,300
groups,
1406
01:09:57,500 --> 01:09:59,100
occult, cult groups,
1407
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:01,900
will use a full moon.
1408
01:10:04,500 --> 01:10:07,000
In several occult books,
1409
01:10:07,500 --> 01:10:11,000
they will talk about
the life force of the blood.
1410
01:10:11,900 --> 01:10:15,200
Usually the younger
the individual,
1411
01:10:15,500 --> 01:10:17,100
the more pure it is.
1412
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:20,700
The more power
or force it has.
1413
01:10:21,100 --> 01:10:23,300
A lot of times
they will take blood
1414
01:10:23,900 --> 01:10:26,000
and store it
for other services,
1415
01:10:26,500 --> 01:10:27,400
and other use,
1416
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:29,500
as well as consume it,
1417
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:31,300
or bathe in it.
1418
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:34,000
Now the...
1419
01:10:35,700 --> 01:10:37,900
Item that's
drawn on the front,
1420
01:10:38,100 --> 01:10:39,000
what is that?
1421
01:10:39,100 --> 01:10:41,300
That is a pentagram,
1422
01:10:41,500 --> 01:10:43,000
that happens to be
a "wiccan",
1423
01:10:43,300 --> 01:10:45,600
or white witchcraft
pentagram.
1424
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:49,000
Now, if you open
the book to the front page.
1425
01:10:49,900 --> 01:10:50,700
Yes, sir.
1426
01:10:53,100 --> 01:10:53,800
Now...
1427
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:56,100
Explain
what that is.
1428
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:57,700
That's confusion to me.
1429
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,100
The reason why is
we got a white witchcraft...
1430
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:04,200
"Wiccan" pentagram,
1431
01:11:04,700 --> 01:11:06,700
then we have
upside-down crosses,
1432
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:09,600
which comes from another
type of a occultism.
1433
01:11:09,700 --> 01:11:10,600
What type?
1434
01:11:11,700 --> 01:11:13,200
That's black witchcraft.
1435
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:15,500
Is it "Wicca", satanism,
1436
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:16,600
or both?
1437
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:17,600
Both.
1438
01:11:18,700 --> 01:11:21,500
And did you notice
anything in particular
1439
01:11:22,500 --> 01:11:23,600
about the book?
1440
01:11:23,700 --> 01:11:26,200
There's a chapter in here called
"Rise of the Devil"
1441
01:11:27,100 --> 01:11:28,100
and...
1442
01:11:31,100 --> 01:11:33,300
It is underlined in red.
1443
01:11:33,900 --> 01:11:37,200
And there are a couple
of sentences in there,
1444
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:38,700
reference to
1445
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:40,300
blood,
1446
01:11:40,500 --> 01:11:41,700
and it's life force.
1447
01:11:44,100 --> 01:11:46,900
How were you accepted
into enrollment
1448
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,100
at Columbia Pacific University?
1449
01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:53,500
I had to fill out
several series of papers
1450
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:55,300
including
all my education,
1451
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:58,000
background, experience.
1452
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:01,800
Did you ever fill out
a little flyer like this?
1453
01:12:02,100 --> 01:12:02,800
No, sir.
1454
01:12:03,100 --> 01:12:05,700
It says, "C all toll-free
for information
1455
01:12:05,900 --> 01:12:06,900
on how to become a doctor?"
1456
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:12,700
This is a mail order college,
isn't it?
1457
01:12:13,700 --> 01:12:15,500
What classes did you take
1458
01:12:15,700 --> 01:12:18,200
between 1980 and 1982
1459
01:12:18,300 --> 01:12:19,700
to obtain
your master's degree?
1460
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:23,600
What classes?
1461
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:24,400
I testified--
1462
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,000
I'm asking you,
1463
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:28,300
what classes
did you take?
1464
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:30,200
I answered that
before, none.
1465
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,200
You did not
take any classes,
1466
01:12:33,100 --> 01:12:36,100
between 1982 and 1984
1467
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:37,600
when you became a PHD.
1468
01:12:37,900 --> 01:12:39,200
What classes
did you take?
1469
01:12:39,900 --> 01:12:40,400
None.
1470
01:12:40,500 --> 01:12:42,300
None, o.K.
1471
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:45,900
Is it your opinion,
1472
01:12:46,300 --> 01:12:48,400
and do you want
to tell this jury...
1473
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:52,500
That these crimes,
1474
01:12:53,100 --> 01:12:55,400
were motivated
by occult beliefs?
1475
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:56,600
Yes.
1476
01:13:04,100 --> 01:13:05,100
We're not trash,
1477
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:06,600
by no means.
1478
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:09,300
My son was born
in West Memphis,
1479
01:13:09,500 --> 01:13:11,200
he was raised
in west Memphis,
1480
01:13:11,700 --> 01:13:14,100
and for the life of me,
I cannot understand
1481
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,100
why people have got
this bad imagine of him.
1482
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,500
So what if he wore
a black trench coat?
1483
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:24,500
He's not the
only one that does.
1484
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:29,500
So what if he
wore black t-shirts,
1485
01:13:29,700 --> 01:13:30,700
black pants?
1486
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,000
Johnny Cash wears black,
doesn't he?
1487
01:13:34,300 --> 01:13:37,300
I wear black,
Michelle wears black,
1488
01:13:38,900 --> 01:13:40,500
Domini wears black!
1489
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,200
We're all just
partial to black, I guess.
1490
01:13:44,700 --> 01:13:46,300
I like black myself.
1491
01:13:47,300 --> 01:13:50,400
And, I'm by no means
no devil worshipper,
1492
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:52,000
nor is he.
1493
01:13:52,500 --> 01:13:53,600
He was goin' to school,
1494
01:13:53,700 --> 01:13:55,600
he wanted to go to school
to be a priest,
1495
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:57,600
he was faithful
in the church.
1496
01:13:59,500 --> 01:14:02,500
He looked into
a little bit of "Wicca",
1497
01:14:02,900 --> 01:14:04,200
but, he never
1498
01:14:04,300 --> 01:14:05,300
went to it,
1499
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:08,500
and I think if people
looked into what "Wicca" is
1500
01:14:08,700 --> 01:14:10,600
they would understand it
a little better.
1501
01:14:10,900 --> 01:14:12,400
The only thing wiccans do,
1502
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:15,100
is worship the earth.
1503
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:26,900
People probably
think that I'm into satanism
1504
01:14:27,900 --> 01:14:30,200
because usually what
people don't understand
1505
01:14:30,300 --> 01:14:31,400
they try to destroy...
1506
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:33,900
Or ridicule.
1507
01:14:35,300 --> 01:14:37,100
Try to make it
look bad or wrong.
1508
01:14:40,900 --> 01:14:42,700
West Memphis is
pretty much like
1509
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:44,800
second Salem.
1510
01:14:47,700 --> 01:14:49,800
Because everything
that happens here,
1511
01:14:49,900 --> 01:14:51,000
no matter what it is,
1512
01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:52,400
it's blamed on satanism.
1513
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:00,500
He's been
previously sworn.
1514
01:15:01,500 --> 01:15:02,300
Correct.
1515
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:07,600
Please state
your name for the court.
1516
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:09,200
Damien Wayne Echols.
1517
01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:11,300
Why did you
change your name?
1518
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:14,300
I was very involved
in the Catholic church,
1519
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,100
and we were going over
different names of the saints,
1520
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:20,400
St. Michaels was
where I went to church,
1521
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,300
and we heard
about this guy
1522
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,600
from the Hawaiian islands,
1523
01:15:27,700 --> 01:15:28,800
father Damien,
1524
01:15:28,900 --> 01:15:30,600
that took care of lepers,
1525
01:15:31,300 --> 01:15:34,100
until he finally caught
the disease himself and died.
1526
01:15:34,500 --> 01:15:37,200
Was that the reason you
choose Damien as your first name?
1527
01:15:37,300 --> 01:15:38,000
Yes, it is.
1528
01:15:38,300 --> 01:15:40,200
Did the choosing
of the name "Damien"
1529
01:15:40,300 --> 01:15:42,700
have anything
to do with any type of
1530
01:15:43,100 --> 01:15:45,000
horror movies, satanism,
1531
01:15:45,300 --> 01:15:46,900
cultism,
any of that nature?
1532
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:48,200
Nothing
whatsoever.
1533
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:51,200
After the time period
that you were really
1534
01:15:51,300 --> 01:15:53,000
into the
catholic religion,
1535
01:15:53,300 --> 01:15:56,400
did you start focusing
on another particular religion?
1536
01:15:57,900 --> 01:15:58,700
"Wicca".
1537
01:15:59,500 --> 01:16:01,600
Could you explain to the ladies
and gentlemen of the jury
1538
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:05,000
some principals about
the Wicca religion?
1539
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:10,500
It acknowledges a goddess
in a higher regard
1540
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:11,400
as a god,
1541
01:16:11,500 --> 01:16:14,500
because people have always said
we are all god's children,
1542
01:16:14,900 --> 01:16:16,600
and men cannot
have children.
1543
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:20,800
It's basically like
1544
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,300
a close involvement
with nature.
1545
01:16:24,100 --> 01:16:25,900
Is there
a difference between
1546
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:28,900
the Wicca religion
and witchcraft?
1547
01:16:30,300 --> 01:16:32,300
Wicca is also
called "witchcraft",
1548
01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:34,900
the word "Wicca"
was bastardized,
1549
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:37,000
it originally
meant "wise one".
1550
01:16:37,500 --> 01:16:41,600
Did the fact that you like
to wear black all the time,
1551
01:16:42,700 --> 01:16:45,100
were you different
in other ways as well?
1552
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,000
Yes, I've never had
a lot of the same interests
1553
01:16:49,100 --> 01:16:50,100
that other people have,
1554
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:51,800
like sports,
things like that,
1555
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:53,400
I've never been
into anything like that.
1556
01:16:56,100 --> 01:16:58,200
Did it help you
deal with other people
1557
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,700
to have people
kind of stand-offish
1558
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:02,100
and sort of
back away from you?
1559
01:17:02,300 --> 01:17:05,400
Yeah, it was like
a defense mechanism,
1560
01:17:05,500 --> 01:17:06,800
it would make
people think like,
1561
01:17:07,500 --> 01:17:09,700
well he's weird
I'm not gonna go around him,
1562
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:11,700
so, it kept people away.
1563
01:17:11,900 --> 01:17:14,400
The state
introduced the book
1564
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:16,300
"Never on a Broomstick",
1565
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:19,800
Are you familiar with
that particular book?
1566
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:20,800
Yes, I am.
1567
01:17:20,900 --> 01:17:22,800
Where did you
get that book, Damien?
1568
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:25,600
At the library,
in Crittenden County.
1569
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,500
All the books that they were
gettin' tired of
1570
01:17:28,700 --> 01:17:29,900
or had for a long time,
1571
01:17:30,100 --> 01:17:32,700
they had them
sittin' on a rack out front,
1572
01:17:32,900 --> 01:17:34,700
that they were selling
for 10 cents each,
1573
01:17:35,500 --> 01:17:36,400
so I got it.
1574
01:17:36,700 --> 01:17:40,100
Did you underline any of
those portions in the book?
1575
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:41,400
That was done
when I got it,
1576
01:17:41,500 --> 01:17:44,100
I think it was because somebody
had a report to do,
1577
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:46,100
'cause all during the book
there's little notes,
1578
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,600
certain dates and stuff,
1579
01:17:48,700 --> 01:17:50,100
like from the 1600's
1580
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:52,000
in the outside margin.
1581
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:55,400
So was that book kind of like
a history of witchcraft
1582
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:57,300
and how it's developed
over the ages?
1583
01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:57,900
Yes.
1584
01:17:58,900 --> 01:18:02,000
Are you familiar with
the contents of that notebook?
1585
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:03,000
Yes, I am.
1586
01:18:03,100 --> 01:18:05,200
I noticed on the inside
of the front cover
1587
01:18:05,300 --> 01:18:07,600
there appears to be
a couple of quotes there,
1588
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,200
could you read
each of those to the jury
1589
01:18:11,300 --> 01:18:13,200
and tell them
where that came from?
1590
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:15,800
"Life is but
a walking shadow,
1591
01:18:15,900 --> 01:18:17,800
"it is a tale
told by an idiot,
1592
01:18:17,900 --> 01:18:20,300
full of sound and fury
signifying nothing."
1593
01:18:20,700 --> 01:18:22,800
That's from
"A Midsummer's Night's Dream",
1594
01:18:22,900 --> 01:18:24,200
by William Shakespeare.
1595
01:18:25,900 --> 01:18:27,400
"Pure black
looking clear,
1596
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:29,200
"my work is
soon done here,
1597
01:18:29,300 --> 01:18:32,000
try getting back from me,
that which used to be."
1598
01:18:32,500 --> 01:18:34,800
That is off
a Metallica tape,
1599
01:18:35,100 --> 01:18:36,600
called "And Justice for All",
1600
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:40,100
talks about how warped
the court systems are,
1601
01:18:40,900 --> 01:18:42,400
and stuff like that.
1602
01:18:42,700 --> 01:18:44,500
On May the 5th...
1603
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:48,300
Did you kill
Michael Moore?
1604
01:18:48,500 --> 01:18:49,500
No, I did not.
1605
01:18:50,300 --> 01:18:52,000
On May the 5th,
1606
01:18:52,500 --> 01:18:54,500
did you kill
Stevie branch?
1607
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:55,800
No, I did not.
1608
01:18:56,300 --> 01:18:57,800
On May the 5th,
1609
01:18:58,100 --> 01:18:59,900
did you kill
Chris Byers?
1610
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:01,300
No, I did not.
1611
01:19:01,500 --> 01:19:04,400
Have you ever participated
in any type of human sacrifice?
1612
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:05,800
No, I have not.
1613
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:09,500
19 year old
Damien Echols
1614
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:11,400
admits he
stands out in a crowd.
1615
01:19:11,700 --> 01:19:13,600
He says he loves
heavy metal music--
1616
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:21,800
3-2-1...
1617
01:19:22,500 --> 01:19:24,300
19 year old
Damien Echols says--
1618
01:19:24,900 --> 01:19:26,000
3-2-1...
1619
01:19:28,100 --> 01:19:31,800
19 year old Damien Echols
admits he stands out in a crowd.
1620
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:34,200
He says he likes to
wear black most of the time,
1621
01:19:34,500 --> 01:19:36,200
practices
the "Wicca" religion,
1622
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:38,000
and loves
heavy metal music,
1623
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:40,400
but he says he's
definitely not a killer.
1624
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:45,700
I believe they did it,
1625
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:48,000
and if they were to be
1626
01:19:48,500 --> 01:19:50,300
set free on the street,
1627
01:19:50,500 --> 01:19:53,200
then they would have to
look behind their back,
1628
01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:54,300
watch behind their back,
1629
01:19:54,300 --> 01:19:56,200
to see if Pam Hobbs
wouldn't follow 'em.
1630
01:19:56,300 --> 01:20:00,200
Because I'm just
saying this as a human.
1631
01:20:01,500 --> 01:20:02,200
I would,
1632
01:20:02,300 --> 01:20:04,100
I believe I'd
try to kill them two,
1633
01:20:04,500 --> 01:20:06,200
if they ever
walked the street,
1634
01:20:06,500 --> 01:20:07,600
and I'm still alive.
1635
01:20:08,700 --> 01:20:10,700
I believe
I'd be stalking them.
1636
01:20:11,700 --> 01:20:12,800
To do to them...
1637
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:17,500
Probably shoot 'em,
and then cut 'em up.
1638
01:20:17,900 --> 01:20:20,600
When I was down at the
courtroom and Damien walked past me,
1639
01:20:20,700 --> 01:20:23,200
I wanted to go over there,
and take my hand
1640
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:24,900
and just
claw down his face,
1641
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:26,800
inflict any kind of pain,
1642
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:28,700
that I could
inflict on him.
1643
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:31,900
I know, eventually,
we're gonna have to forgive 'em,
1644
01:20:32,300 --> 01:20:33,400
I understand that,
1645
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:36,500
but when it happens
in your home
1646
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:39,200
and you watch your wife
lose her mind,
1647
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:41,700
and whatever
happened to her,
1648
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:44,700
your home is tore apart
and busted up,
1649
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:47,400
I don't feel it's fair
1650
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:49,000
right now,
1651
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:52,700
for someone to ask me to forgive
the ones that caused it.
1652
01:20:55,100 --> 01:20:56,500
It'll take some time,
1653
01:20:56,900 --> 01:20:57,900
a long time,
1654
01:20:58,100 --> 01:20:59,300
before I could
forgive 'em.
1655
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:02,100
You say that
it's gonna take time,
1656
01:21:02,900 --> 01:21:05,500
we don't know
how much time we got,
1657
01:21:06,200 --> 01:21:08,600
and we wouldn't be able
to see Stevie again,
1658
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:10,700
we have to
forgive in our heart,
1659
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:12,200
because The Lord,
1660
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:14,900
forgave us,
1661
01:21:15,700 --> 01:21:17,100
He forgave us,
1662
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:18,800
He shedded his blood
1663
01:21:19,300 --> 01:21:20,200
for us.
1664
01:21:20,300 --> 01:21:22,500
He shedded
his blood for them.
1665
01:21:24,500 --> 01:21:27,500
And he just asked us
1666
01:21:27,900 --> 01:21:29,200
to have a...
1667
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:31,300
forgiving spirit.
1668
01:21:31,500 --> 01:21:32,700
Now, I refuse,
1669
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:35,200
to serve sin and Satan.
1670
01:21:38,300 --> 01:21:40,300
Because I'm gonna
see Stevie again,
1671
01:21:40,500 --> 01:21:41,800
I'm gonna be
with Stevie again,
1672
01:21:41,900 --> 01:21:43,900
I'm gonna be
with my mother again.
1673
01:21:44,300 --> 01:21:46,300
I'm gonna be with
your grandmother,
1674
01:21:46,500 --> 01:21:47,300
both of them.
1675
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:50,800
I'm gonna be with
all of my loved ones,
1676
01:21:51,500 --> 01:21:53,600
that have passed on
and went to heaven.
1677
01:22:19,300 --> 01:22:21,300
If you could speak
to the families...
1678
01:22:22,700 --> 01:22:25,500
Of these kids
who think you did it,
1679
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:27,400
what would you
say to them?
1680
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:41,700
I don't know.
1681
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:49,600
Jason was my best friend,
1682
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:51,500
we did about
everything together.
1683
01:22:52,900 --> 01:22:55,400
It was kind of like we even
lived together most of the time,
1684
01:22:55,500 --> 01:22:57,200
stayed at
each others houses,
1685
01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:58,800
wore each other's clothes.
1686
01:23:00,100 --> 01:23:01,700
It was more like
we were brothers.
1687
01:23:01,900 --> 01:23:04,200
We used to go out and
snake hunt all the time.
1688
01:23:05,900 --> 01:23:07,500
Snakes and music
1689
01:23:07,700 --> 01:23:09,700
were about our
whole life really.
1690
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:16,500
We were all the time
lookin' for new groups,
1691
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:19,600
that we would like.
1692
01:23:19,700 --> 01:23:21,200
Our favorite
kinds of music
1693
01:23:21,300 --> 01:23:23,600
were like Slayer,
Metallica, Megadeth.
1694
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:27,700
U2...
1695
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:35,800
Would we would do just about
everything together.
1696
01:23:39,900 --> 01:23:41,400
I wanna draw your attention
1697
01:23:41,500 --> 01:23:43,800
back to August
of last year,
1698
01:23:43,900 --> 01:23:47,200
were you were in the craighead
juvenile detention facility?
1699
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:48,000
Yes, I was.
1700
01:23:48,100 --> 01:23:49,900
And what were you
in there for at the time?
1701
01:23:50,100 --> 01:23:50,900
Burglary.
1702
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:55,100
And, when
you were there,
1703
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:58,000
was there
a Jason Baldwin
1704
01:23:58,000 --> 01:23:59,900
in the juvenile
detention facility
1705
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:01,000
at the same time?
1706
01:24:01,100 --> 01:24:01,600
Yes.
1707
01:24:02,300 --> 01:24:04,900
While you were in contact
with this Jason Baldwin,
1708
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:07,900
was there anything mentioned
about his involvement
1709
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:09,800
in the murders of the three
eight year olds?
1710
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:12,600
Yes, we were sitting there
playing spades
1711
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,400
and I wanted to get to know
everybody off in there,
1712
01:24:16,300 --> 01:24:18,300
I don't know
what you'd call it,
1713
01:24:18,500 --> 01:24:19,800
but, I just wanted
to get to know him,
1714
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:22,200
and I just straight out
asked him if he did it
1715
01:24:22,300 --> 01:24:24,100
and he denied it
the first time.
1716
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:27,900
Did you have an occasion again
while you were there
1717
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:30,900
to ask him
was he involved
1718
01:24:30,900 --> 01:24:32,500
in the murders of
the three eight year olds?
1719
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:33,600
Yes.
1720
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:35,700
I think it was
like the next day.
1721
01:24:36,700 --> 01:24:38,300
I believe it was
the next day.
1722
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:42,900
And can you tell us
what was going on,
1723
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:44,800
what was happening
at the time that occurred?
1724
01:24:44,900 --> 01:24:47,900
Me and Jason were
scrapin' up the cards,
1725
01:24:48,500 --> 01:24:50,000
goin' to our cells for lunch,
1726
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:52,300
and I said, "just between
me and you, I won't say a word,
1727
01:24:52,900 --> 01:24:54,000
did you do it?"
1728
01:24:54,100 --> 01:24:56,400
And he said "yes",
and he went into detail.
1729
01:24:57,700 --> 01:24:59,000
What did he tell you?
1730
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:00,800
He told me
1731
01:25:00,900 --> 01:25:02,900
how he
dismembered the kid,
1732
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:05,200
or I don't know
exactly how many kids,
1733
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:06,800
he just said
he dismembered 'em,
1734
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:09,800
he sucked the blood
from the penis and scrotum,
1735
01:25:09,900 --> 01:25:11,400
and put the balls
in his mouth.
1736
01:25:12,100 --> 01:25:13,600
Now Michael,
1737
01:25:13,900 --> 01:25:15,000
when was it
1738
01:25:15,500 --> 01:25:17,000
that you...
1739
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:19,500
Came forward
with this information?
1740
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:21,600
I'm not really sure,
1741
01:25:21,700 --> 01:25:23,500
I believe it was like
a couple of months later.
1742
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:26,100
What caused you
to come forward
1743
01:25:26,300 --> 01:25:27,700
at that point in time?
1744
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:31,900
Why did Michael Carson no longer
wanna stay uninvolved,
1745
01:25:32,100 --> 01:25:33,800
why did you come forward
in February this year?
1746
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:35,800
'Cause I saw
the family on TV,
1747
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:38,100
I saw how
broken-hearted they were
1748
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:39,700
about their
children being missing,
1749
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:41,800
and I got a soft heart,
I couldn't take it.
1750
01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:59,300
Now, he tells you
this and then you're silent...
1751
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:01,800
From August,
1752
01:26:03,500 --> 01:26:05,600
until February,
is that right?
1753
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:06,400
Yes, sir.
1754
01:26:06,700 --> 01:26:09,400
And in the second conversation
you've ever had
1755
01:26:09,500 --> 01:26:11,700
with this young man
in his entire life
1756
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:13,700
he tells you
all this stuff?
1757
01:26:14,100 --> 01:26:14,700
Yes, sir.
1758
01:26:14,700 --> 01:26:17,000
After he's had
one conversation with you.
1759
01:26:18,100 --> 01:26:18,700
Yes, sir.
1760
01:26:22,300 --> 01:26:24,500
One day when I
was up here workin',
1761
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:26,800
the phone rings,
secretary says,
1762
01:26:27,500 --> 01:26:29,200
you won't know who he is
but he needs to talk to you,
1763
01:26:29,300 --> 01:26:31,100
I pick up the phone,
he says I'm Danny Williams,
1764
01:26:31,300 --> 01:26:32,800
I'm embarrassed to tell you
what I need to tell you,
1765
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,200
he said but I work with
the juvenile department here,
1766
01:26:36,300 --> 01:26:38,300
and I do drug
and alcohol counseling,
1767
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:41,400
and there's a guy
named Michael Carson
1768
01:26:42,300 --> 01:26:43,600
who's gonna testify that
1769
01:26:43,700 --> 01:26:45,400
Jason confessed
to him in jail
1770
01:26:45,700 --> 01:26:46,800
and I know he's lying.
1771
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:48,700
I said,
what are you talkin' about?
1772
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:50,900
He said, well,
several months ago,
1773
01:26:51,900 --> 01:26:52,900
Michael Carson was
1774
01:26:53,100 --> 01:26:54,900
one of the kids
that I worked with,
1775
01:26:55,500 --> 01:26:56,200
and...
1776
01:26:57,300 --> 01:27:00,300
He and I had a conversation
where I told him
1777
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:01,700
that this Jason Baldwin
1778
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:04,800
had been accused of
killing three boys
1779
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:06,400
and sexually mutilating them.
1780
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:07,700
And basically,
1781
01:27:08,100 --> 01:27:10,700
he gave Michael Carson
the details
1782
01:27:10,900 --> 01:27:12,700
that he testified to
at the trial.
1783
01:27:13,500 --> 01:27:15,300
At the time
Carson says nothing...
1784
01:27:17,700 --> 01:27:19,700
And then Carson
later tells him,
1785
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:21,500
"hey, by the way Danny,
1786
01:27:21,900 --> 01:27:23,900
"I'm tellin' the police
1787
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:26,000
that Jason
confessed to me".
1788
01:27:26,500 --> 01:27:29,000
So he calls me up
and says no, no,
1789
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:31,200
this kid's a liar,
he's no good,
1790
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:32,600
I know he's lying,
1791
01:27:32,700 --> 01:27:34,600
and the only reason
he's got this information
1792
01:27:34,700 --> 01:27:35,800
is because
I gave it to him.
1793
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:38,200
The counselor of this kid
called the prosecution
1794
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:41,000
and told 'em
what a liar he was
1795
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:43,700
and the prosecution
still used the kid,
1796
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:46,100
and now they're tryin'
to keep out the fact
1797
01:27:46,500 --> 01:27:47,900
the background
of the kid.
1798
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:50,300
Obviously we wanna
get that information out
1799
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:53,000
but the judge acts like he
might not let us use it at all.
1800
01:27:53,400 --> 01:27:55,700
We should absolutely
be able to
1801
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:58,300
let that jury know
that he is
1802
01:27:58,700 --> 01:27:59,600
LSD dependent,
1803
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:02,200
because it does effect
his ability to recall.
1804
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:04,900
The judge takes
all that away from us
1805
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:06,600
and says, the kid
looks pretty believable.
1806
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:09,200
Not only are they keeping out
the background of the kid
1807
01:28:09,300 --> 01:28:12,500
when he testifies, so the jury
doesn't have all the eggs,
1808
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:14,500
but now they're
keeping out the counselor,
1809
01:28:14,700 --> 01:28:16,500
who even
knows about this kid,
1810
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:18,800
who told him the story
in the first place,
1811
01:28:19,100 --> 01:28:21,100
prior to him
ever telling the police.
1812
01:28:21,300 --> 01:28:23,100
All that goes
to the credibility.
1813
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:25,300
I think that would've shown
the jury that he doesn't have
1814
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:26,800
quite that kind heart.
1815
01:28:26,900 --> 01:28:29,300
That soft heart that he tried to tell .
1816
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:42,600
Det. Allen, I
want to direct your attention
1817
01:28:42,700 --> 01:28:45,800
to November
the 17th, 1993,
1818
01:28:45,900 --> 01:28:47,500
were you asked to
1819
01:28:48,300 --> 01:28:49,700
make contact with some
1820
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:53,000
property owners at
lakeshore trailer park,
1821
01:28:53,100 --> 01:28:54,300
and also get with
1822
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:56,500
the Arkansas
state police dive team?
1823
01:28:57,100 --> 01:28:58,100
Yes, sir I was.
1824
01:28:58,400 --> 01:29:01,300
And after
a period of time of...
1825
01:29:04,500 --> 01:29:07,400
Searching, do you know whether
any items were recovered?
1826
01:29:08,900 --> 01:29:09,700
Yes, sir.
1827
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:12,000
Mark for
identification purposes,
1828
01:29:12,300 --> 01:29:13,500
the state's exhibit 77,
1829
01:29:13,700 --> 01:29:15,500
and I ask if you
can identify that.
1830
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:25,900
Yes,
1831
01:29:26,400 --> 01:29:28,100
I can identify this
by my...
1832
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:33,300
"11-17 of '93,
1833
01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:35,700
M. Allen",
that I put here.
1834
01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:37,200
Where did
you get the knife?
1835
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:38,600
I got this knife from
1836
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:41,200
the diver
with the state police.
1837
01:29:41,500 --> 01:29:43,100
How long did
this search take?
1838
01:29:43,700 --> 01:29:45,100
"How long?"
1839
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:49,100
From memory, I'm thinking,
maybe 10:30 A.M.
1840
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,600
Is the time they got suited up
and started to look.
1841
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:54,800
You quit at when?
1842
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:56,900
They located the...
1843
01:29:58,700 --> 01:29:59,400
Knife,
1844
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,200
at 11:35 A.M.
1845
01:30:03,900 --> 01:30:05,300
11:30, 11:35.
1846
01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:06,600
About an hour.
1847
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:07,900
About an hour--
1848
01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:14,000
Are you telling this jury
1849
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:16,300
that this knife
is the murder weapon?
1850
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:17,700
Is that what
you're tellin' this jury?
1851
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:19,700
No, sir, I'm not
telling the jury that.
1852
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:21,900
Okay, now that
we understand that.
1853
01:31:22,300 --> 01:31:24,900
What day were these
individuals charged?
1854
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:26,800
What did day did
y'all charge Damien Echols
1855
01:31:27,100 --> 01:31:28,200
with this crime?
1856
01:31:28,700 --> 01:31:29,900
Was it June
the third?
1857
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:30,800
Yes, sir.
1858
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:32,800
And what day was it
that you were out there
1859
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:34,200
searching this lake?
1860
01:31:34,900 --> 01:31:37,300
This was on
11-17 of '93.
1861
01:31:38,100 --> 01:31:40,300
November 17 of 1993?
1862
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:41,100
Yes, sir.
1863
01:31:41,100 --> 01:31:41,700
That's all.
1864
01:31:44,900 --> 01:31:47,300
As long as they get an arrest,
they don't care.
1865
01:31:48,800 --> 01:31:50,600
The damn system stinks!
1866
01:31:54,100 --> 01:31:55,700
They're playing
with our lives,
1867
01:31:55,900 --> 01:31:57,600
and there's nothing
right about it.
1868
01:31:58,000 --> 01:31:59,400
It's kind of like
the Nazis,
1869
01:31:59,900 --> 01:32:01,700
they can just take
somebody's word
1870
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:04,100
and come in your house,
and take you away.
1871
01:32:06,100 --> 01:32:08,000
And basically
that's what they did
1872
01:32:08,100 --> 01:32:09,800
because of what
Jessie told them,
1873
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:12,700
even though it had all those
inconsistencies in it.
1874
01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:14,800
If we had money,
do you think these 3 boys
1875
01:32:14,900 --> 01:32:16,000
would've been picked up?
1876
01:32:16,900 --> 01:32:19,500
They found people
they knew didn't have money
1877
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:21,400
the boys have been in
a little bit of trouble,
1878
01:32:21,500 --> 01:32:23,100
they thought
we didn't care,
1879
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:24,600
they were wrong.
1880
01:32:25,500 --> 01:32:26,600
They're bad wrong.
1881
01:32:27,300 --> 01:32:29,800
I don't believe
that children
1882
01:32:30,100 --> 01:32:31,100
could be
1883
01:32:31,900 --> 01:32:33,100
that cold-blooded,
1884
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:34,800
as what happened
to those boys.
1885
01:32:36,100 --> 01:32:38,200
On the state's exhibit, 67-a,
1886
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:39,800
it shows the...
1887
01:32:41,100 --> 01:32:42,300
Hog-tying fashion,
1888
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:44,600
the hands were hog-tied,
1889
01:32:45,900 --> 01:32:47,300
to the feet,
behind the back,
1890
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:49,000
and this is the photograph,
1891
01:32:50,200 --> 01:32:52,100
showing the shoe laces...
1892
01:32:54,300 --> 01:32:56,800
That injury, you say,
1893
01:32:57,500 --> 01:32:59,300
is typical of a belt injury,
1894
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:00,900
the belt has
a little buckle,
1895
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:04,200
and that's one
that goes back and forth
1896
01:33:04,300 --> 01:33:07,200
left to right,
that's the base of the latch.
1897
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:11,000
Here, this
red area here,
1898
01:33:11,200 --> 01:33:13,300
this is the
shaft of the penis,
1899
01:33:13,900 --> 01:33:15,600
and here is where
the scrotal sac
1900
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:17,500
and testes should be
and they're missing.
1901
01:33:17,900 --> 01:33:20,900
So what we have
is the skin overlying the penis,
1902
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:22,200
the head of the penis,
1903
01:33:22,300 --> 01:33:24,300
has been carved off,
it's gone, it's not there.
1904
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:27,100
In layman's language,
1905
01:33:27,300 --> 01:33:28,800
that I understand,
1906
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:31,700
with respect,
1907
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:34,600
his penis has not
been cut off, has it?
1908
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:37,400
No, the skin has been
taken off the penis.
1909
01:33:38,100 --> 01:33:41,300
And basically it would
take some skill
1910
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:42,500
and precision
1911
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:43,900
to do that,
wouldn't it?
1912
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:46,200
I would think so.
1913
01:33:46,500 --> 01:33:48,000
If this was
to be done,
1914
01:33:48,500 --> 01:33:49,800
this dissection,
1915
01:33:50,500 --> 01:33:51,900
where the skin is cut off,
1916
01:33:53,700 --> 01:33:55,200
that would take
a very sharp instrument
1917
01:33:55,200 --> 01:33:56,100
would it not?
1918
01:33:56,700 --> 01:33:58,100
I think it would.
1919
01:33:58,900 --> 01:33:59,900
Such as a razor.
1920
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:01,500
Or a sharp knife.
1921
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:02,600
A very sharp knife,
1922
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:04,800
doctor, if you
were to do this,
1923
01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:08,000
with the skill and precision
and knowledge that you take,
1924
01:34:08,300 --> 01:34:10,400
how long would it
take you to do that?
1925
01:34:10,500 --> 01:34:11,700
It would
take me some time.
1926
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:14,400
It would take you
longer than 5 to 10 minutes?
1927
01:34:14,500 --> 01:34:15,500
I would think so.
1928
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:17,100
And that's
in your lab.
1929
01:34:18,700 --> 01:34:19,500
I would think so.
1930
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:20,400
With a scalpel.
1931
01:34:21,900 --> 01:34:22,600
Is that correct?
1932
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:23,200
That's correct.
1933
01:34:23,400 --> 01:34:25,500
Now, doctor if we
added to the equation
1934
01:34:26,300 --> 01:34:27,900
that you were in the dark,
1935
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:30,900
could you do this
in the dark?
1936
01:34:31,700 --> 01:34:33,700
You, doctor, could you
do it in the dark?
1937
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:34,800
It'd be difficult.
1938
01:34:35,800 --> 01:34:37,600
Could you do this
in the water?
1939
01:34:38,900 --> 01:34:41,800
You, doctor, could you
do this in the water?
1940
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:44,800
I think it would be
very difficult to do.
1941
01:34:45,300 --> 01:34:47,900
If you were doing it
in the dark,
1942
01:34:48,300 --> 01:34:49,400
in the water,
1943
01:34:49,700 --> 01:34:52,400
with mosquitoes
all around you.
1944
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:56,100
Would that make it even
much more difficult?
1945
01:34:56,700 --> 01:34:57,700
I would think so.
1946
01:34:58,500 --> 01:35:01,800
It would be
a very tedious task for you,
1947
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:04,200
a skilled pathologist.
1948
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:05,600
It would.
1949
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:08,900
Now, isn't
it true, doctor,
1950
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:12,400
that people have about
5 pints of blood?
1951
01:35:13,300 --> 01:35:15,100
A little more
than that, yes.
1952
01:35:15,500 --> 01:35:16,600
Okay, now,
1953
01:35:16,700 --> 01:35:18,900
if I poured out
five pints of blood
1954
01:35:19,500 --> 01:35:20,800
out here
on on the floor,
1955
01:35:21,100 --> 01:35:22,400
it would make a big mess,
wouldn't it?
1956
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:22,900
Yes.
1957
01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:26,500
And it would be
almost impossible to clean up.
1958
01:35:27,700 --> 01:35:29,100
You can do it but,
1959
01:35:29,900 --> 01:35:31,400
not very easily.
1960
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:33,500
It's not easy
to clean blood.
1961
01:35:34,500 --> 01:35:36,200
Does blood
soak into the ground?
1962
01:35:36,500 --> 01:35:37,500
Yes, it does.
1963
01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:39,700
Doctor, with this homicide,
1964
01:35:40,500 --> 01:35:41,800
we're talking
about here today,
1965
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:44,400
would you
agree with me that,
1966
01:35:44,500 --> 01:35:47,200
this could've happened
in one of three ways,
1967
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:49,500
these injuries
could've happened in the water,
1968
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:52,500
these injures
could've happened on the bank,
1969
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:55,100
or could've happened
somewhere else.
1970
01:35:55,900 --> 01:35:57,500
Would you agree with me those
are the three possibilities
1971
01:35:57,500 --> 01:35:58,500
of how this
could've happened?
1972
01:35:58,600 --> 01:35:59,100
Yes.
1973
01:35:59,700 --> 01:36:02,900
Now, with your knowledge of the
amount of blood that was lost,
1974
01:36:03,100 --> 01:36:05,900
from, not only Chris Byers,
but these other boys,
1975
01:36:06,700 --> 01:36:08,300
they're gonna bleed
as well, won't they?
1976
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:09,100
Oh, yes.
1977
01:36:09,700 --> 01:36:11,500
Do you have an opinion
as to whether or not
1978
01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:13,800
you could clean up
that amount of blood?
1979
01:36:14,300 --> 01:36:16,300
At a scene,
in the dark?
1980
01:36:16,500 --> 01:36:18,100
Do you have an
opinion as to that?
1981
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:20,100
I think it would be
quite difficult to do,
1982
01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:20,900
to have...
1983
01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:24,700
injuries of this nature,
1984
01:36:25,900 --> 01:36:27,400
without having any blood...
1985
01:36:29,300 --> 01:36:31,500
I would question that
about the blood.
1986
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:34,000
Unless it happened
in the water
1987
01:36:34,100 --> 01:36:35,300
or it happened
some other place.
1988
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:38,100
And you again, doctor,
stated that you couldn't
1989
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:40,000
do this
in the water?
1990
01:36:41,100 --> 01:36:43,200
Personally,
I don't think I could.
1991
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:46,900
I don't get off
on hurtin' people,
1992
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:50,500
or inflicting pain
1993
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:52,300
on the rest
of the human race,
1994
01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:53,000
or just...
1995
01:36:54,100 --> 01:36:56,900
Causing destruction
for the purpose of destruction.
1996
01:36:59,300 --> 01:37:00,800
I've probably been in
1997
01:37:01,300 --> 01:37:03,700
one or two fights
my entire life.
1998
01:37:11,700 --> 01:37:14,300
And especially a child...
1999
01:37:17,600 --> 01:37:19,700
Because they didn't
do anything to deserve
2000
01:37:20,300 --> 01:37:21,500
what they got.
2001
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:39,500
And I believe whatever you do
to someone else,
2002
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:41,000
whether it's good or bad,
2003
01:37:41,100 --> 01:37:43,400
is eventually gonna
come back around to you.
2004
01:37:47,100 --> 01:37:48,500
Even the person
who did this,
2005
01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:51,000
if they're not
caught and punished,
2006
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:53,300
something will happen
in their life
2007
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:55,600
where they
will be punished.
2008
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:02,000
People kept tellin'
me not to go out with Damien
2009
01:38:02,700 --> 01:38:04,400
because he was like
some kind of devil worshiper,
2010
01:38:04,500 --> 01:38:06,700
and I met him
in Wal-Mart...
2011
01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:12,200
And he followed me around
like a puppy dog...
2012
01:38:14,700 --> 01:38:16,900
And we started talking
and he was real sweet,
2013
01:38:17,100 --> 01:38:19,300
not like everybody else was
making him out to be,
2014
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:21,300
that night we
starting going out,
2015
01:38:21,800 --> 01:38:23,500
and it was like a month,
2016
01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:25,600
and he called me up
on the telephone
2017
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:27,700
at my dad's
girlfriend's house
2018
01:38:27,900 --> 01:38:29,800
and he goes,
"will you marry me?"
2019
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:31,700
And I'm like, "what?!"
2020
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:33,700
And he goes,
"will you marry me?"
2021
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,300
I said, "can you repeat that
one more time?!"
2022
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:38,700
And he goes,
"will you marry me",
2023
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:40,600
I said, "yeah",
2024
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:43,000
and when I got pregnant
2025
01:38:43,100 --> 01:38:45,200
I had this big picture
painted in my mind,
2026
01:38:45,300 --> 01:38:47,000
Damien's gonna be there,
2027
01:38:47,300 --> 01:38:49,700
and I get to yell at him
when I have the baby.
2028
01:38:51,300 --> 01:38:54,200
And instead
I was yelling at her.
2029
01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:56,900
I miss him so much.
2030
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:05,300
And he hasn't yet
to see the baby,
2031
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:07,400
they won't let him
touch the baby.
2032
01:39:10,500 --> 01:39:12,300
It makes me so pissed off.
2033
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:16,100
I felt different
when he was born it was--
2034
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:22,300
It made me feel like,
2035
01:39:23,500 --> 01:39:25,600
I guess just
real good inside...
2036
01:39:27,700 --> 01:39:29,000
To think that I gave life
2037
01:39:29,100 --> 01:39:30,800
to another human being.
2038
01:39:32,700 --> 01:39:35,100
Something completely
separate from me
2039
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:36,400
but still part of me.
2040
01:39:45,500 --> 01:39:48,100
I just hope that I'll be there
when he grows up.
2041
01:39:49,100 --> 01:39:50,000
To watch him.
2042
01:39:51,100 --> 01:39:53,000
You are
familiar with a fellow named
2043
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:54,400
Aleister Crowley?
2044
01:39:54,600 --> 01:39:55,900
I know who he is.
2045
01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:01,100
He's the guy
who kindly professes,
2046
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:04,200
he's a noted author
2047
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:06,400
in the field
of satanic worship.
2048
01:40:06,700 --> 01:40:08,000
I know he is
2049
01:40:08,100 --> 01:40:10,300
but I never saw
any of his books, personally.
2050
01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:12,900
You're not really much
of a follower of his?
2051
01:40:13,100 --> 01:40:15,200
I would've read 'em
if I would've saw 'em,
2052
01:40:15,300 --> 01:40:16,400
but, I just never...
2053
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:19,300
But, Aleister Crowley,
2054
01:40:19,900 --> 01:40:22,600
is a guy that
based on his writings,
2055
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:25,100
believes in human sacrifice,
doesn't he?
2056
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:28,000
He also believed
he was God, though.
2057
01:40:30,600 --> 01:40:31,700
And he also
2058
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:33,900
had writings
that indicated
2059
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:36,600
that children
were the best type
2060
01:40:36,700 --> 01:40:38,100
of human sacrifice,
correct?
2061
01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:39,100
Yes, sir.
2062
01:40:40,900 --> 01:40:42,900
But, Aleister
Crowley doesn't have any
2063
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:44,300
particular
significance to you?
2064
01:40:45,500 --> 01:40:46,700
I know who he is,
2065
01:40:47,100 --> 01:40:48,500
I've read
a little bit about him,
2066
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:50,100
but, I never read
anything by him.
2067
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:52,700
Let me show you
2068
01:40:54,400 --> 01:40:55,900
a copy of documents,
2069
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:57,200
do you recognize that?
2070
01:40:57,800 --> 01:40:58,500
Yes.
2071
01:40:59,300 --> 01:41:00,400
What is that?
2072
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:07,200
It was this paper I had
on different alphabets
2073
01:41:07,500 --> 01:41:08,600
for like translations,
2074
01:41:08,700 --> 01:41:10,700
where you can write things
that nobody could read,
2075
01:41:10,900 --> 01:41:12,300
and this was
one of the forms.
2076
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:13,200
Oh, okay,
2077
01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:14,600
where'd you
have that at?
2078
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:18,400
When did you
write those things out?
2079
01:41:19,100 --> 01:41:21,300
Some time before
I was arrested I guess.
2080
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:24,100
Are you sure that
you hadn't done those
2081
01:41:24,200 --> 01:41:26,400
since you were arrested while
you been staying in jail?
2082
01:41:27,300 --> 01:41:28,400
I don't know,
I might have.
2083
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:32,400
Who's names are
written on that document?
2084
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:35,100
Mine, Jason's,
2085
01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:36,300
my son's,
2086
01:41:36,700 --> 01:41:38,700
one that says
Aleister Crowley--
2087
01:41:38,800 --> 01:41:40,300
Wait, wait!
Who?
2088
01:41:40,600 --> 01:41:41,600
Aleister Crowley.
2089
01:41:41,700 --> 01:41:44,000
This is a document that you've
written while you've been
2090
01:41:44,200 --> 01:41:46,300
waiting in jail
for trial, right?
2091
01:41:47,100 --> 01:41:48,000
If you say so.
2092
01:41:48,300 --> 01:41:50,600
You wrote it,
it's your writing?
2093
01:41:50,900 --> 01:41:51,900
Mm-hmm.
2094
01:41:52,700 --> 01:41:54,200
Do you recall
when you wrote it?
2095
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:55,200
Not really.
2096
01:41:55,700 --> 01:41:57,100
What I'm gonna ask you is,
2097
01:41:57,200 --> 01:42:00,700
that this Damien Echols,
your son,
2098
01:42:00,800 --> 01:42:03,400
he wasn't born until after you
were placed in jail, correct?
2099
01:42:03,700 --> 01:42:04,100
Yes.
2100
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:07,300
So if you've got his name
listed on this document,
2101
01:42:07,300 --> 01:42:10,400
then this document had to be
generated after he was born?
2102
01:42:10,700 --> 01:42:11,200
Yes.
2103
01:42:11,500 --> 01:42:12,900
So this is something
you've written
2104
01:42:12,900 --> 01:42:15,000
since you've been
sitting in here in jail
2105
01:42:15,700 --> 01:42:16,600
waiting for trial.
2106
01:42:16,700 --> 01:42:17,300
Yes.
2107
01:42:17,500 --> 01:42:20,600
And what you were doing
was writing out various names
2108
01:42:20,700 --> 01:42:22,600
in different types
of alphabets, correct?
2109
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:24,200
From the way it looks here
I was practicing,
2110
01:42:24,300 --> 01:42:25,600
trying to
memorize them.
2111
01:42:26,100 --> 01:42:28,900
And one of the names that you
picked out to write about
2112
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:31,500
was this fella named
Aleister Crowely, correct?
2113
01:42:31,700 --> 01:42:32,300
Mm-hmm.
2114
01:42:32,400 --> 01:42:34,600
Is that just
a total coincidence,
2115
01:42:34,700 --> 01:42:36,600
you just pulled his name
out of the air?
2116
01:42:37,100 --> 01:42:39,600
No, it's the same book
that I had
2117
01:42:40,000 --> 01:42:41,600
with the different alphabets
2118
01:42:41,700 --> 01:42:43,100
and it also had stuff
about him in there.
2119
01:42:44,900 --> 01:42:47,700
Did you have the book out at
the time you were doing this?
2120
01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:49,800
This was just from what
I remembered myself,
2121
01:42:49,900 --> 01:42:51,800
I was practicing,
trying to memorize,
2122
01:42:52,300 --> 01:42:53,700
get it all in my head.
2123
01:42:53,800 --> 01:42:56,100
So you were going over it
and working on it,
2124
01:42:56,200 --> 01:42:58,600
and at that point in time,
2125
01:43:00,100 --> 01:43:02,100
you write all this
down from memory?
2126
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:03,500
Mm-hmm.
2127
01:43:03,700 --> 01:43:05,100
The people
that are listed here,
2128
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:07,000
you got your name
on here, right?
2129
01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:07,800
Mm-hmm.
2130
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:10,700
And Jason Baldwin,
which is your best friend, right?
2131
01:43:11,200 --> 01:43:13,800
And then you got
Damien Seth Echols,
2132
01:43:13,900 --> 01:43:15,200
that's your son?
2133
01:43:15,200 --> 01:43:15,900
Yes, it is.
2134
01:43:16,000 --> 01:43:19,000
And the only
other name on this document,
2135
01:43:19,400 --> 01:43:22,400
besides yourself,
your best friend, and your son,
2136
01:43:22,700 --> 01:43:24,300
is Aleister Crowley,
correct?
2137
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:25,300
Yes, sir.
2138
01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:29,600
I believe this witness has requested
not to be photographed.
2139
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:30,600
That's correct,
your honor.
2140
01:43:40,800 --> 01:43:43,200
Would you state your name
for the jury?
2141
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:45,200
Christi V anbickle.
2142
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:48,200
Do like you just did
2143
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:50,400
and speak up
best you can, okay?
2144
01:43:51,500 --> 01:43:52,600
Are you nervous?
2145
01:43:53,400 --> 01:43:54,100
Yes.
2146
01:43:55,900 --> 01:43:58,200
Did you hear somebody
say something
2147
01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:00,500
about the murder
of the three little boys?
2148
01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:03,300
Yes, I heard Damien Echols say
2149
01:44:03,400 --> 01:44:04,700
that he killed
the three boys.
2150
01:44:04,900 --> 01:44:06,900
Where were you,
was he sayin' that to you,
2151
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:08,100
what were you doin'?
2152
01:44:08,200 --> 01:44:10,200
I was walking
by with my friend.
2153
01:44:18,500 --> 01:44:19,700
Christi,
I'm Scott Davidson,
2154
01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:22,100
I've got a couple of questions
to ask you too, okay?
2155
01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:27,700
First of all, do you
remember what day this was
2156
01:44:28,100 --> 01:44:29,000
that you heard this?
2157
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:30,200
No, sir.
2158
01:44:30,300 --> 01:44:32,400
That's the first time you'd
ever seen him in your life?
2159
01:44:32,600 --> 01:44:33,200
Yes, sir.
2160
01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:35,700
What did he
say before he said
2161
01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:37,200
he killed
those three boys,
2162
01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:39,300
what did he
say before that?
2163
01:44:39,900 --> 01:44:40,700
I don't know.
2164
01:44:42,100 --> 01:44:43,400
What did
he say after that?
2165
01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:45,100
I don't know.
2166
01:44:45,300 --> 01:44:47,200
And how close
were you to him?
2167
01:44:47,700 --> 01:44:48,800
I wasn't close.
2168
01:44:49,400 --> 01:44:50,600
Did he scream it?
2169
01:44:50,900 --> 01:44:51,800
I don't know.
2170
01:44:51,900 --> 01:44:52,800
Did he yell it?
2171
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:53,900
I don't know.
2172
01:44:57,000 --> 01:44:58,200
Call Jody medford.
2173
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:00,100
Again, this witness
2174
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:02,300
has requested
not to be photographed.
2175
01:45:03,300 --> 01:45:06,000
Jody, I want to
direct your attention to
2176
01:45:06,300 --> 01:45:09,300
May of 1993,
after the murders
2177
01:45:09,500 --> 01:45:10,900
of the three little boys.
2178
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:14,100
Did you have occasion
to be at the softball field
2179
01:45:14,200 --> 01:45:17,900
and hear a comment
in regard to the murders?
2180
01:45:18,300 --> 01:45:19,000
Yes, sir.
2181
01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:22,200
Tell the jury first,
2182
01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:24,200
what you heard.
2183
01:45:25,100 --> 01:45:26,500
He said "I
killed the little boys
2184
01:45:26,600 --> 01:45:29,600
"and before I turn myself in
I'm gonna kill two more,
2185
01:45:29,700 --> 01:45:31,200
and I already have
one of 'em picked out."
2186
01:45:31,800 --> 01:45:34,300
You didn't recognize
anybody else that was with him?
2187
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:36,200
I saw Jason Baldwin there.
2188
01:45:37,700 --> 01:45:40,300
Had you heard people talking
about Damien before this?
2189
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:41,900
Yes, sir.
2190
01:45:43,500 --> 01:45:44,600
Did you think,
2191
01:45:46,100 --> 01:45:48,000
do you think he was
kind of weird or something?
2192
01:45:48,100 --> 01:45:50,100
Yes, sir 'cause he was
dressed all in black
2193
01:45:50,300 --> 01:45:52,600
and his hair was
jet black and long
2194
01:45:53,300 --> 01:45:54,300
and shaved on the side.
2195
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:58,300
Two teen-age girls
took the stand this morning
2196
01:45:58,300 --> 01:45:59,900
and they said they heard
Damien Echols
2197
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:03,200
confess to the murders of three
8 year old boys last May,
2198
01:46:03,300 --> 01:46:05,900
one of the girls said
she overheard Damien Echols say,
2199
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:08,200
"I killed the three boys,
and I'm going to kill two more,
2200
01:46:08,300 --> 01:46:10,700
I already have
one picked out."
2201
01:46:11,000 --> 01:46:12,100
Later in the afternoon,
2202
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:13,900
when the defense began
presenting it's witnesses,
2203
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:15,900
Damien Echols, himself
took the stand,
2204
01:46:16,100 --> 01:46:17,800
he said he thought
the girls were lying
2205
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:19,900
and that they were
making up those statements.
2206
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:22,400
He also said he did not
practice satanism,
2207
01:46:22,500 --> 01:46:25,000
and denied any involvement
in the murders of Chris Byers,
2208
01:46:25,100 --> 01:46:27,300
Michael Moore
and Stevie branch.
2209
01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:38,900
Were you working
at Bojangles restaurant
2210
01:46:39,000 --> 01:46:41,200
on the evening of may 5th
2211
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:42,800
of 1993?
2212
01:46:43,100 --> 01:46:43,600
Yes, sir.
2213
01:46:44,300 --> 01:46:45,600
Could you tell us
what happened?
2214
01:46:45,900 --> 01:46:48,100
Well, it was about
9:30 at night,
2215
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:51,800
I found a black gentleman sitting
in the in the woman's restroom
2216
01:46:52,000 --> 01:46:52,800
on the commode,
2217
01:46:52,900 --> 01:46:55,400
and there was blood
dripping off of his forearm,
2218
01:46:56,400 --> 01:46:58,000
but, he had
mud on his feet,
2219
01:46:59,300 --> 01:47:00,400
and he seemed to be
2220
01:47:00,500 --> 01:47:01,900
disarrayed when
I talked to him.
2221
01:47:02,300 --> 01:47:03,600
I called the police then.
2222
01:47:03,800 --> 01:47:04,800
What happened then?
2223
01:47:05,100 --> 01:47:08,100
It was a female officer
for the West Memphis police,
2224
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:10,900
and she pulled on the lot
and I saw her coming
2225
01:47:11,000 --> 01:47:13,000
so, I went up
to the front door.
2226
01:47:13,300 --> 01:47:15,900
She kept comin' around, she went
to the drive through window.
2227
01:47:16,100 --> 01:47:18,200
You did not
go in the restaurant?
2228
01:47:18,400 --> 01:47:19,700
No, sir, I did not.
2229
01:47:19,900 --> 01:47:22,300
Did you ever find this
bleeding black man?
2230
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:23,200
No, sir, I did not.
2231
01:47:23,500 --> 01:47:26,600
Do you have a report that you
made regarding this incident?
2232
01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:27,900
No, sir,
I do not.
2233
01:47:28,900 --> 01:47:30,700
And you're out
looking for some boys,
2234
01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:33,200
you're out in that area and
you hear about someone bleeding,
2235
01:47:33,300 --> 01:47:35,100
did anything go
through your mind thinking,
2236
01:47:35,400 --> 01:47:36,800
something may be going on?
2237
01:47:36,900 --> 01:47:39,100
You gotta understand,
it's a different area I went to,
2238
01:47:39,100 --> 01:47:40,800
it was a different ward,
2239
01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:43,400
I did not connect
the two at all.
2240
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:45,900
It may have
been outside your ward,
2241
01:47:46,100 --> 01:47:48,900
but, distance-wise between
the area where you were looking
2242
01:47:49,000 --> 01:47:50,500
and where this restaurant was,
2243
01:47:50,700 --> 01:47:52,000
it's not a
long distance, is it?
2244
01:47:52,300 --> 01:47:53,700
No, sir,
it's really not.
2245
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:58,000
Did any other officer
come out there that evening?
2246
01:47:58,500 --> 01:47:59,700
Not that evening.
2247
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:04,100
Were you working on
the day of May 6th of 1993?
2248
01:48:04,200 --> 01:48:04,900
Yes, sir,
2249
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:06,400
two detectives came out
2250
01:48:06,500 --> 01:48:09,000
and they took a report
as far as what I'd seen,
2251
01:48:10,100 --> 01:48:11,600
description of
the gentleman,
2252
01:48:11,700 --> 01:48:14,400
and then they took
blood scrapings off the wall.
2253
01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:17,800
What is the date that
you sent the blood scrapings
2254
01:48:17,900 --> 01:48:19,800
off to the crime lab
to be analyzed?
2255
01:48:20,100 --> 01:48:21,100
They were
never sent.
2256
01:48:21,900 --> 01:48:22,900
They were
never sent?
2257
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:23,800
That's correct.
2258
01:48:24,400 --> 01:48:27,300
Where are the blood samples
at this time?
2259
01:48:27,500 --> 01:48:29,000
I don't know,
they're lost.
2260
01:48:30,300 --> 01:48:32,700
That's my mistake,
I lost a piece of evidence.
2261
01:48:44,100 --> 01:48:47,000
Most of the time he
came up with the stupid ideas.
2262
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:51,700
I guess I influenced him
2263
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:54,300
about as much
as he influenced me.
2264
01:48:54,700 --> 01:48:55,900
Most of the time
we didn't really,
2265
01:48:56,000 --> 01:48:57,600
set out to do
anything in particular.
2266
01:48:57,600 --> 01:48:59,500
We just starting
hanging around,
2267
01:48:59,500 --> 01:49:03,600
whatever happened
just usually happened.
2268
01:49:05,400 --> 01:49:07,400
Sometimes good,
sometimes bad.
2269
01:49:08,700 --> 01:49:10,400
We're just sitting
on the couch watching TV
2270
01:49:10,500 --> 01:49:12,000
the night
we were arrested.
2271
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:18,000
Pigs busted in,
2272
01:49:18,500 --> 01:49:20,100
starting runnin'
all over the house.
2273
01:49:20,400 --> 01:49:22,900
We tried to hide in the bedroom
when the cops first came.
2274
01:49:23,000 --> 01:49:24,300
They wouldn't leave!
2275
01:49:24,500 --> 01:49:26,600
We were in the bedroom,
turned the light off,
2276
01:49:27,200 --> 01:49:29,000
Thought maybe they'll go away.
2277
01:49:29,100 --> 01:49:31,000
I know you're
in there, open up!
2278
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:34,000
We saw all
the lights go out.
2279
01:49:36,000 --> 01:49:37,700
And Domini
turned 'em back on.
2280
01:49:37,800 --> 01:49:39,400
No, it was
my sister.
2281
01:49:58,200 --> 01:50:01,300
The interesting thing
about it is the one knife,
2282
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:03,100
that we know somebody owns
2283
01:50:04,400 --> 01:50:05,500
is the Byers' knife.
2284
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:06,800
We know he owns that knife.
2285
01:50:07,000 --> 01:50:08,200
He's got the motive,
2286
01:50:08,700 --> 01:50:10,600
his son who
he's upset with,
2287
01:50:10,900 --> 01:50:13,000
his son was
the only one mutilated,
2288
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:14,700
the other two
weren't mutilated,
2289
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:18,200
he's got knowledge
about the area,
2290
01:50:18,900 --> 01:50:21,000
he knows when
the search is over with,
2291
01:50:22,000 --> 01:50:24,600
he's big enough that he can
carry the boys there
2292
01:50:24,700 --> 01:50:25,800
and throw them in,
2293
01:50:26,000 --> 01:50:27,300
he's a jeweler,
2294
01:50:27,500 --> 01:50:29,600
he's precise enough to have
2295
01:50:29,800 --> 01:50:31,800
committed that mutilation,
2296
01:50:32,500 --> 01:50:35,200
all of the pieces
fit together
2297
01:50:35,300 --> 01:50:38,200
with somebody in
a different location,
2298
01:50:38,900 --> 01:50:41,100
killing the boys
in a different location,
2299
01:50:41,500 --> 01:50:43,600
because there's no
mosquito bites on 'em,
2300
01:50:44,100 --> 01:50:46,900
so we know that after
the boys were killed,
2301
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:48,000
and during,
2302
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:49,900
they weren't outside.
2303
01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:52,800
They had to be inside 'cause
there's no bites on 'em.
2304
01:50:53,300 --> 01:50:56,800
So that means they were carried
from a death scene someplace,
2305
01:50:57,000 --> 01:50:58,100
unconscious,
2306
01:50:58,500 --> 01:51:00,000
and brought down
to the river,
2307
01:51:00,100 --> 01:51:01,500
and they had to be killed
2308
01:51:01,500 --> 01:51:03,200
shortly before they were
brought down there,
2309
01:51:03,400 --> 01:51:05,700
because they all died within
a short period of time.
2310
01:51:06,300 --> 01:51:08,100
So after they were
bled to death,
2311
01:51:08,200 --> 01:51:09,700
after they were bludgeoned,
2312
01:51:10,000 --> 01:51:11,300
and unconscious,
2313
01:51:11,500 --> 01:51:13,400
somebody had to
take those three,
2314
01:51:13,700 --> 01:51:15,500
take 'em to the scene,
and dump 'em.
2315
01:51:16,200 --> 01:51:17,600
In order to do that,
2316
01:51:17,700 --> 01:51:19,300
you gotta be
physically strong enough
2317
01:51:19,500 --> 01:51:20,200
to carry
2318
01:51:20,400 --> 01:51:23,300
an unconscious kid...
2319
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:25,600
Who's hog-tied.
2320
01:51:26,500 --> 01:51:28,300
Jason couldn't have done it,
2321
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:30,300
in his best day,
2322
01:51:30,500 --> 01:51:32,000
he couldn't
carry a little baby,
2323
01:51:32,100 --> 01:51:33,700
with those little
skinny arms of his.
2324
01:51:33,900 --> 01:51:35,700
So when we look
at this whole thing,
2325
01:51:36,300 --> 01:51:39,400
all the pieces that
they tried to put together,
2326
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:42,000
none of it
fits with Jason
2327
01:51:42,900 --> 01:51:44,700
and just about
all of it fits
2328
01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:47,100
towards a person
like Byers.
2329
01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:49,100
When did
you receive that knife?
2330
01:51:51,500 --> 01:51:52,800
I believe it was
on the 8th,
2331
01:51:52,800 --> 01:51:55,300
I've got--
It's hard to make this out,
2332
01:51:55,400 --> 01:51:57,400
"January the 8th, 1994."
2333
01:51:58,100 --> 01:51:59,200
Alright, and,
2334
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:02,500
who did you receive
this knife from?
2335
01:52:02,800 --> 01:52:04,800
I received it from...
2336
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:09,600
How did I
actually receive it?
2337
01:52:09,700 --> 01:52:11,300
No, who did you
receive the knife from?
2338
01:52:11,800 --> 01:52:13,800
I received it from...
2339
01:52:15,100 --> 01:52:17,200
Joe and the people with
2340
01:52:17,700 --> 01:52:19,400
HBO Productions.
2341
01:52:20,400 --> 01:52:20,900
O.K.
2342
01:52:21,300 --> 01:52:22,200
Bruce and...
2343
01:52:22,700 --> 01:52:23,900
Wherever he is.
2344
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:28,000
Upon receiving that knife,
what did you do with it?
2345
01:52:28,100 --> 01:52:30,200
I saw what I thought to be
2346
01:52:30,300 --> 01:52:32,200
some type of substance
on the knife,
2347
01:52:32,500 --> 01:52:34,600
and naturally I did not
know what it was,
2348
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:35,800
I, in turn,
2349
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:38,400
sent this knife
to a genetic concern.
2350
01:52:38,900 --> 01:52:41,900
When the knife
was received by your firm,
2351
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:43,900
did you or your lab,
2352
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:46,200
run tests on that
particular knife?
2353
01:52:46,500 --> 01:52:49,600
There was a small amount of
what appeared to be
2354
01:52:49,900 --> 01:52:52,100
blood that was dried,
2355
01:52:52,200 --> 01:52:54,800
or tissue in a crevice
on the knife,
2356
01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:56,700
where the knife
folds when it locks.
2357
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:58,900
The results of the test
showed us that
2358
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:00,900
there was DNA
2359
01:53:01,400 --> 01:53:02,900
present on the knife,
2360
01:53:03,100 --> 01:53:05,400
and that we were able
to get a type,
2361
01:53:05,500 --> 01:53:07,600
using a test called
2362
01:53:07,800 --> 01:53:09,500
"HLA-DQ Alpha".
2363
01:53:09,700 --> 01:53:13,100
And Mr. Byers had the same type
that was detected
2364
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:15,100
from the specimen
from the knife.
2365
01:53:15,500 --> 01:53:19,000
Okay, and what was
the "DQ-Alpha" type
2366
01:53:19,100 --> 01:53:20,500
for Christopher Byers?
2367
01:53:20,900 --> 01:53:22,500
It was also
the same type.
2368
01:53:22,600 --> 01:53:24,800
So, the blood
on the knife,
2369
01:53:27,100 --> 01:53:29,100
and Christopher Byer's blood,
2370
01:53:29,400 --> 01:53:30,900
and John Mark Byer's blood
2371
01:53:31,000 --> 01:53:32,300
all had the same type.
2372
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:33,000
Correct.
2373
01:53:48,000 --> 01:53:49,400
Judge, if I can
approach the witness?
2374
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:50,200
Alright.
2375
01:53:52,400 --> 01:53:53,900
Take a look
at that knife.
2376
01:54:00,500 --> 01:54:03,000
I will call that,
for identification purposes,
2377
01:54:03,300 --> 01:54:05,600
the "John Mark Byers' knife".
2378
01:54:07,000 --> 01:54:10,600
Doctor, did you make
a comparison with this knife,
2379
01:54:10,800 --> 01:54:11,600
"E-6",
2380
01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:14,300
and compare that
with some of the wounds
2381
01:54:14,400 --> 01:54:16,000
that you found
on Chris Byers?
2382
01:54:16,100 --> 01:54:16,700
Yes, I did.
2383
01:54:18,100 --> 01:54:20,500
Does that knife appear
to be a serrated knife?
2384
01:54:20,700 --> 01:54:21,800
Yes, this is
a serrated knife.
2385
01:54:22,500 --> 01:54:23,700
Do you have an opinion
2386
01:54:23,900 --> 01:54:26,700
if some of the wounds
that you found on Chris Byers
2387
01:54:27,000 --> 01:54:29,600
were consistent with wounds
which would've been caused
2388
01:54:29,900 --> 01:54:31,600
by that type
of serrated knife?
2389
01:54:32,100 --> 01:54:33,200
Some of the wounds
that have
2390
01:54:33,300 --> 01:54:35,100
the smaller
serrated patterns,
2391
01:54:36,900 --> 01:54:37,800
could have been
2392
01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:39,700
inflicted with a knife
2393
01:54:39,900 --> 01:54:41,700
having this type
of serration.
2394
01:54:43,300 --> 01:54:45,300
How do you think
this has gone over so far
2395
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:47,000
on the Mark Byers' aspect?
2396
01:54:47,500 --> 01:54:49,600
Obviously we thought
long and hard about
2397
01:54:49,900 --> 01:54:53,300
mentioning a father
as a possible suspect.
2398
01:54:54,000 --> 01:54:55,600
I hate having to do that,
2399
01:54:55,800 --> 01:54:57,600
but the way
the circumstances are,
2400
01:54:58,000 --> 01:55:01,300
it's just coming out
whether we want it to or not.
2401
01:55:02,900 --> 01:55:05,600
We had suspicions even
before the knife showed up.
2402
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:08,100
Do you think anybody
realizes the reason
2403
01:55:08,300 --> 01:55:11,300
for the three day delay
in Jessie's trial was
2404
01:55:11,900 --> 01:55:15,100
waiting on that DNA test
2405
01:55:15,100 --> 01:55:16,700
to come back
on Byers' knife?
2406
01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:19,600
I doubt it, and even
after the results came back,
2407
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:21,900
and it showed that
it could be Mark's blood,
2408
01:55:22,000 --> 01:55:23,200
as well as Chris' blood,
2409
01:55:24,000 --> 01:55:25,200
that doesn't alleviate
2410
01:55:25,800 --> 01:55:27,800
the fact that he said
2411
01:55:27,900 --> 01:55:29,700
no one had ever
cut themself on the knife.
2412
01:55:31,600 --> 01:55:33,400
And it shouldn't have
had blood on it at all.
2413
01:55:33,700 --> 01:55:36,700
Do you think
the argument at least
2414
01:55:37,900 --> 01:55:40,400
that it wasn't that the blood
was found on the blade,
2415
01:55:40,500 --> 01:55:41,900
which could be
easily wiped off,
2416
01:55:42,100 --> 01:55:44,600
but it was back in the hinges
that you normally wouldn't think
2417
01:55:45,200 --> 01:55:46,800
if you were wipin'
off the blood,
2418
01:55:46,900 --> 01:55:49,100
you wouldn't think the blood
would be inside the hinges,
2419
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:50,700
and that's where they found
that particular blood.
2420
01:55:50,900 --> 01:55:52,200
How do we
get that in?
2421
01:55:52,300 --> 01:55:53,400
Just ask Gitchell?
2422
01:55:54,400 --> 01:55:56,900
Ask Byers, we can put
Byers up on the stand.
2423
01:55:57,000 --> 01:55:59,000
I think the jury
expects to see him now.
2424
01:55:59,100 --> 01:56:01,700
They wanna see
what he has to say,
2425
01:56:01,700 --> 01:56:02,400
don't you think so?
2426
01:56:02,500 --> 01:56:03,200
I think so.
2427
01:56:04,300 --> 01:56:06,400
Mr. Byers,
I need to ask you about,
2428
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:09,000
defense exhibit
number "E-6",
2429
01:56:09,100 --> 01:56:10,100
this particular
2430
01:56:10,500 --> 01:56:12,800
folding lock-blade knife.
2431
01:56:13,600 --> 01:56:14,900
If I can approach
the witness your honor?
2432
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:15,600
Yes.
2433
01:56:17,800 --> 01:56:19,600
Take a look at
that knife, please.
2434
01:56:28,900 --> 01:56:31,000
Had that knife
ever been used before?
2435
01:56:32,600 --> 01:56:33,900
Used for what?
2436
01:56:34,700 --> 01:56:36,100
Used for any purpose?
2437
01:56:37,400 --> 01:56:38,500
I had...
2438
01:56:39,400 --> 01:56:41,000
trimmed me
toenails with it,
2439
01:56:41,100 --> 01:56:43,000
I had attempted to
2440
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:44,900
trim on
2441
01:56:45,100 --> 01:56:47,000
some venison that I had.
2442
01:56:48,400 --> 01:56:50,500
You attempted
"to trim on some venison",
2443
01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:53,200
when was it that you attempted
to trim on some venison?
2444
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:56,700
Some time around
the Thanksgiving holidays.
2445
01:56:57,000 --> 01:56:59,200
Do you recall being asked
on January the 26th,
2446
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:00,400
this is on page 3,
2447
01:57:01,500 --> 01:57:02,800
by Insp. Gitchell,
2448
01:57:03,100 --> 01:57:05,300
"had you ever taken
that knife hunting,
2449
01:57:05,500 --> 01:57:07,000
or used it recently?"
2450
01:57:07,200 --> 01:57:09,800
Do you remember being asked
that question by Insp. Gitchell?
2451
01:57:10,300 --> 01:57:12,900
Specifically, no, sir,
he asked me a lot of questions.
2452
01:57:13,000 --> 01:57:16,100
Do you remember
giving the answer "no,
2453
01:57:16,400 --> 01:57:19,200
"that knife had not
been used at all,
2454
01:57:19,700 --> 01:57:22,800
"it had just been kept up,
put in my dresser,
2455
01:57:23,100 --> 01:57:24,500
"and I didn't use it,
2456
01:57:24,700 --> 01:57:27,600
and the reason why was because
of the serrated edges."
2457
01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:29,800
Do you recall
giving that answer
2458
01:57:30,000 --> 01:57:32,200
to Insp. Gitchell
on the 26th?
2459
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:35,000
No, sir,
I don't recall
2460
01:57:35,100 --> 01:57:37,300
giving him
that exact answer.
2461
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:39,700
I'm sure his question
wouldn't have been asked
2462
01:57:39,900 --> 01:57:41,400
exactly like your question.
2463
01:57:41,500 --> 01:57:43,000
Did Gitchell tell you,
2464
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:45,800
"Let me explain
a problem we had,
2465
01:57:46,000 --> 01:57:48,000
"and you need to answer
this for me,
2466
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:50,000
we have found
blood on this knife".
2467
01:57:50,200 --> 01:57:52,000
Did Gitchell ask you
that question?
2468
01:57:52,200 --> 01:57:54,900
I don't remember if he said
there was or not.
2469
01:57:55,000 --> 01:57:56,800
Did you tell Gitchell
you had no idea
2470
01:57:56,900 --> 01:57:58,800
how Chris' blood
could be on that knife?
2471
01:57:58,900 --> 01:58:01,100
Yes, sir, I would
not have any idea,
2472
01:58:01,200 --> 01:58:03,300
if his blood
was on that knife,
2473
01:58:03,400 --> 01:58:05,200
I would not know
how it got there.
2474
01:58:05,500 --> 01:58:06,700
Did you have any idea
2475
01:58:06,800 --> 01:58:09,300
how human blood
was on that knife?
2476
01:58:09,900 --> 01:58:11,300
Yes, I would have an idea,
2477
01:58:11,500 --> 01:58:12,500
I cut my thumb.
2478
01:58:13,300 --> 01:58:13,900
Alright,
2479
01:58:14,900 --> 01:58:18,600
isn't it true that you
never told Gitchell on Jan. 26th
2480
01:58:19,000 --> 01:58:21,800
that you ever cut your thumb
with that particular knife,
2481
01:58:21,900 --> 01:58:22,600
did you?
2482
01:58:22,700 --> 01:58:25,400
Yes, sir, it seems like
during the course of the day
2483
01:58:25,500 --> 01:58:26,500
I did tell him that.
2484
01:58:26,600 --> 01:58:29,300
Was that during the taped
conversation or was that after?
2485
01:58:30,300 --> 01:58:31,400
I don't remember.
2486
01:58:31,600 --> 01:58:33,600
Okay, on the top
of page 8,
2487
01:58:34,200 --> 01:58:36,100
do you recall
being asked the question,
2488
01:58:36,300 --> 01:58:39,000
"I have no idea,
no idea,
2489
01:58:39,200 --> 01:58:41,800
"how it could have
any human blood on it".
2490
01:58:42,800 --> 01:58:44,100
Do you recall
giving that answer?
2491
01:58:44,200 --> 01:58:44,800
Yes, sir.
2492
01:58:44,900 --> 01:58:46,500
Then do you recall stating,
2493
01:58:46,700 --> 01:58:49,300
"I don't even remember
nicking myself with it,
2494
01:58:49,600 --> 01:58:51,400
cutting the deer meat
or anything."
2495
01:58:51,900 --> 01:58:53,200
Is that the answer
you gave?
2496
01:58:53,300 --> 01:58:53,800
Yes, sir.
2497
01:58:53,900 --> 01:58:55,100
And is that the truth?
2498
01:58:55,700 --> 01:58:58,300
At the time when
he was questioning me,
2499
01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:01,500
I might not have remembered...
2500
01:59:01,600 --> 01:59:03,900
We were getting ready
to go into a trial...
2501
01:59:06,700 --> 01:59:08,700
Did you remember
on this date
2502
01:59:08,900 --> 01:59:11,300
cutting yourself
with the venison,
2503
01:59:11,400 --> 01:59:12,700
or not
cutting yourself?
2504
01:59:12,800 --> 01:59:14,400
The date that
Gary questioned--
2505
01:59:15,000 --> 01:59:15,500
Yes, sir.
2506
01:59:15,800 --> 01:59:18,200
I might not have
remembered it at that time,
2507
01:59:18,300 --> 01:59:19,700
when he was
questioning me,
2508
01:59:19,700 --> 01:59:21,900
but, I could have remembered it
later on in the day
2509
01:59:22,000 --> 01:59:23,700
and talked to him
about it.
2510
01:59:25,800 --> 01:59:27,200
Earlier that afternoon,
2511
01:59:27,300 --> 01:59:29,400
had you given
Chris a whipping?
2512
01:59:30,600 --> 01:59:32,800
Approximately around 5:30.
2513
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:35,900
About 5:30,
was this with a belt?
2514
01:59:36,100 --> 01:59:37,100
Yes, sir.
2515
01:59:37,400 --> 01:59:39,900
How many times did you
hit him with the belt?
2516
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:42,200
I spanked him
two or three times.
2517
01:59:43,400 --> 01:59:45,300
And what part of the body
did you spank him?
2518
01:59:45,800 --> 01:59:48,100
It would've been
just on his behind.
2519
01:59:48,300 --> 01:59:50,700
Was he wearing his paints,
2520
01:59:50,800 --> 01:59:51,800
or did you have him
pull his pants down?
2521
01:59:52,100 --> 01:59:53,900
No, he had on
blue jeans.
2522
01:59:58,800 --> 02:00:00,800
The judge back there
during that last recess
2523
02:00:00,900 --> 02:00:02,100
before you were
recalled here,
2524
02:00:02,300 --> 02:00:04,500
says that you have
a brain tumor
2525
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:06,400
and you're being treated,
2526
02:00:06,700 --> 02:00:08,900
do you wanna talk about that,
is it true?
2527
02:00:09,200 --> 02:00:11,000
It's been rumored.
2528
02:00:11,300 --> 02:00:13,000
Yes, I have
a brain tumor.
2529
02:00:13,400 --> 02:00:14,700
And you're
being treated?
2530
02:00:14,900 --> 02:00:16,500
Yes, I'm being
treated for it.
2531
02:00:18,800 --> 02:00:20,100
I need to
ask you one question
2532
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:21,900
and I hope you
won't get angry,
2533
02:00:22,000 --> 02:00:25,300
but has
even the suggestion
2534
02:00:25,400 --> 02:00:27,300
that you may have had
2535
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:29,500
something to do with
the murders of these boys
2536
02:00:29,600 --> 02:00:33,200
caused any problems
within your family
2537
02:00:33,300 --> 02:00:35,300
or with any of the other
2538
02:00:35,400 --> 02:00:36,700
victim's families?
2539
02:00:36,900 --> 02:00:37,400
No.
2540
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:41,500
They all the know
the truth and, no.
2541
02:00:45,100 --> 02:00:47,000
Did you have anything to do
with these boy's deaths?
2542
02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:48,700
No more than you did.
2543
02:00:50,200 --> 02:00:51,900
Someone said
you're buying a new house,
2544
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:53,300
that you're leaving
West Memphis?
2545
02:00:53,400 --> 02:00:54,600
I didn't say that.
2546
02:00:57,700 --> 02:00:58,900
We might try to move.
2547
02:00:59,200 --> 02:01:00,500
Out of West Memphis?
2548
02:01:01,500 --> 02:01:02,700
Well, somewhere...
2549
02:01:02,900 --> 02:01:04,700
I mean you would
probably wanna move.
2550
02:01:06,300 --> 02:01:07,000
You know?
2551
02:01:07,200 --> 02:01:08,700
Did you say where
you were gonna move?
2552
02:01:08,700 --> 02:01:09,300
No.
2553
02:01:09,400 --> 02:01:10,800
Let me ask
you a question,
2554
02:01:11,100 --> 02:01:12,800
would you wanna
live in a house
2555
02:01:12,900 --> 02:01:15,900
that your baby died less than
3/4 of a mile from?
2556
02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:16,800
I wouldn't, no.
2557
02:01:17,900 --> 02:01:19,400
That answers the question.
2558
02:01:20,400 --> 02:01:21,900
You're talking about
your whole family, right?
2559
02:01:22,000 --> 02:01:23,300
You're not just
talking about you?
2560
02:01:23,400 --> 02:01:25,400
You wouldn't move and leave
your wife and children somewhere
2561
02:01:25,500 --> 02:01:26,300
would you?
2562
02:01:27,000 --> 02:01:28,800
Not if we were
gonna stay together.
2563
02:01:28,800 --> 02:01:29,200
O.K.
2564
02:01:32,100 --> 02:01:34,800
Some of the questions you ask
are kind of ridiculous,
2565
02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:37,100
some of 'em are kinda
2566
02:01:38,100 --> 02:01:40,000
odd or strange
or different,
2567
02:01:40,300 --> 02:01:41,900
how ever you'd like
to comment on 'em,
2568
02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:45,200
but, some of 'em seem like you
just use a little common sense
2569
02:01:45,300 --> 02:01:47,200
and think about
what you would do
2570
02:01:47,200 --> 02:01:48,300
or how you would feel.
2571
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:51,100
Some of the questions
you wouldn't have to ask.
2572
02:01:51,600 --> 02:01:52,800
We have to ask them,
2573
02:01:52,800 --> 02:01:54,200
we can't
quote ourselves.
2574
02:01:55,500 --> 02:01:58,200
I know, but a lot of times
things are printed in the paper
2575
02:01:58,400 --> 02:02:01,700
that people did not say
and the news media,
2576
02:02:01,900 --> 02:02:04,000
I'm not stating
which individual,
2577
02:02:04,100 --> 02:02:06,400
says they got it from
a confidential informer,
2578
02:02:06,500 --> 02:02:09,200
and you don't like to turn your
confidential informer over,
2579
02:02:09,300 --> 02:02:11,800
when you're confidential
informer is your imagination.
2580
02:02:12,700 --> 02:02:15,000
There's a lot of things
that printed in the paper
2581
02:02:15,200 --> 02:02:16,700
that people did not say.
2582
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:20,400
But the media
has the rights to print
2583
02:02:20,500 --> 02:02:21,800
what they wanna print.
2584
02:02:23,400 --> 02:02:25,100
Victims don't
have any rights.
2585
02:02:40,400 --> 02:02:42,200
Now that I've
heard him talk...
2586
02:02:45,100 --> 02:02:46,900
I kinda had an idea
of what he was like
2587
02:02:47,000 --> 02:02:48,400
before he talked,
2588
02:02:48,500 --> 02:02:49,600
but after he talked
2589
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:51,800
he wasn't anything like
I thought he would be.
2590
02:02:52,300 --> 02:02:53,200
How is he?
2591
02:02:55,200 --> 02:02:57,700
I see him now as more like
a human being
2592
02:02:57,800 --> 02:02:59,000
than I did before.
2593
02:02:59,300 --> 02:03:01,400
Now I see him as
having a personality.
2594
02:03:04,000 --> 02:03:05,200
From a defense standpoint,
2595
02:03:05,300 --> 02:03:07,200
I've never been
a defense attorney, but,
2596
02:03:07,800 --> 02:03:09,700
to put him
on the witness stand,
2597
02:03:10,100 --> 02:03:12,000
sure seems to be
an awful big gamble.
2598
02:03:12,100 --> 02:03:14,700
I can't understand that mindset
that puts you in the position
2599
02:03:14,800 --> 02:03:16,500
where you're willing
to take that gamble.
2600
02:03:18,100 --> 02:03:19,600
Especially when
you follow it up
2601
02:03:19,700 --> 02:03:22,400
with Mr. Bojangles'
2602
02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:23,700
accusations.
2603
02:03:24,300 --> 02:03:25,700
It didn't
make any sense.
2604
02:03:26,500 --> 02:03:28,900
'Cause to me,
if I were on the jury,
2605
02:03:29,000 --> 02:03:31,200
it would look like
something desperate,
2606
02:03:31,800 --> 02:03:33,500
they're gonna
cast blame on anybody
2607
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:35,200
and everybody they can.
2608
02:03:38,100 --> 02:03:39,700
And the defense
didn't have the the guts
2609
02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:41,500
to actually ask him
did he do it?
2610
02:03:53,800 --> 02:03:55,200
The song that I really
2611
02:03:55,900 --> 02:03:57,400
can relate to
by Metallica
2612
02:03:57,500 --> 02:03:58,800
is "Sanitarium".
2613
02:04:02,200 --> 02:04:04,500
'Cause I feel like all those
times I was put in the hospital
2614
02:04:04,500 --> 02:04:05,700
I didn't need it.
2615
02:04:08,300 --> 02:04:09,800
It was just the police,
2616
02:04:09,900 --> 02:04:11,700
another way for them
setting me up,
2617
02:04:11,700 --> 02:04:13,500
when they couldn't
send me to prison.
2618
02:04:13,700 --> 02:04:15,700
We'll get him out of our way
for a little while,
2619
02:04:17,300 --> 02:04:19,000
by sending him
somewhere else.
2620
02:04:24,700 --> 02:04:26,300
I like Metallica because,
2621
02:04:26,800 --> 02:04:27,700
well, all...
2622
02:04:28,800 --> 02:04:30,700
hard music like that,
because,
2623
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:35,000
it gives me an
adrenaline rush.
2624
02:04:38,100 --> 02:04:39,700
Makes me feel more alive.
2625
02:05:48,900 --> 02:05:50,700
Now during the course of,
2626
02:05:51,700 --> 02:05:54,100
talking to Mr. Echols,
2627
02:05:54,500 --> 02:05:55,900
did you ask him,
2628
02:05:56,200 --> 02:05:58,600
who did he think
did it and why?
2629
02:05:58,900 --> 02:06:00,900
In one area he says
2630
02:06:01,700 --> 02:06:02,800
he had an opinion
2631
02:06:02,900 --> 02:06:04,600
for who could've
done the murders,
2632
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:06,100
as being someone sick,
2633
02:06:06,200 --> 02:06:08,300
and it was some type of
thrill kill.
2634
02:06:08,500 --> 02:06:10,000
He also stated
that the penis
2635
02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:12,000
was a symbol of power
in his religion,
2636
02:06:12,000 --> 02:06:13,100
known as "wicca".
2637
02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:15,500
He also stated
that the number 3
2638
02:06:15,600 --> 02:06:17,100
has a sacred number
in the belief.
2639
02:06:18,400 --> 02:06:21,000
Did he tell you
anything about demonic forces?
2640
02:06:21,300 --> 02:06:24,000
Yes, he said that all people
have a demonic force in them
2641
02:06:24,100 --> 02:06:27,200
and that a person
would have no control
2642
02:06:27,300 --> 02:06:28,700
over that demonic force.
2643
02:06:30,100 --> 02:06:32,200
Mr. Echols was not
the only person that told you
2644
02:06:32,700 --> 02:06:35,200
that the kids probably
died of mutilation, was he?
2645
02:06:35,300 --> 02:06:35,800
No, sir.
2646
02:06:38,200 --> 02:06:41,200
And, when, Mr.
Echols, you asked him,
2647
02:06:41,700 --> 02:06:44,300
what type of books
did he enjoy reading?
2648
02:06:44,800 --> 02:06:45,400
Yes, sir.
2649
02:06:47,800 --> 02:06:51,500
And he told you
Anton Levy
2650
02:06:51,700 --> 02:06:52,900
and Stephen King?
2651
02:06:53,800 --> 02:06:54,400
Yes, sir.
2652
02:06:55,500 --> 02:06:58,300
In your opinion is
there anything unusual
2653
02:06:58,500 --> 02:07:01,200
about those being the
type of books that he likes?
2654
02:07:03,600 --> 02:07:05,000
Anton Levy,
2655
02:07:05,200 --> 02:07:06,300
is a book of
2656
02:07:06,400 --> 02:07:09,500
satanic rules
and involvement.
2657
02:07:10,100 --> 02:07:11,800
Stephen King's
2658
02:07:12,300 --> 02:07:14,100
seems to be horror movies,
2659
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:16,600
horror books.
2660
02:07:18,000 --> 02:07:21,200
You're asking if I felt
that was strange, yes I did.
2661
02:07:24,200 --> 02:07:26,400
Now let me refer you back
to your statement
2662
02:07:26,500 --> 02:07:28,300
that you gave
officer Ridge.
2663
02:07:30,000 --> 02:07:31,800
Did you tell him
in that statement
2664
02:07:31,900 --> 02:07:33,300
that you
had been a member
2665
02:07:33,400 --> 02:07:35,300
of a white witch group
for 5 years?
2666
02:07:36,000 --> 02:07:36,600
No.
2667
02:07:37,500 --> 02:07:39,700
I've never been
a member of any group.
2668
02:07:40,400 --> 02:07:43,500
If he put that in his report
you're saying that's inaccurate.
2669
02:07:43,800 --> 02:07:44,400
Yes, I am.
2670
02:07:44,500 --> 02:07:45,300
He made that up.
2671
02:07:46,100 --> 02:07:46,900
Yes I am.
2672
02:07:47,800 --> 02:07:49,700
On question number nine,
2673
02:07:49,800 --> 02:07:51,000
how do you think
2674
02:07:51,100 --> 02:07:53,200
the person feels
that did this?
2675
02:07:54,000 --> 02:07:57,000
The answer was,
"probably makes them feel good,
2676
02:07:57,300 --> 02:07:58,300
gives them power."
2677
02:07:58,600 --> 02:08:00,700
Now, I guess officer Ridge
said that too.
2678
02:08:01,000 --> 02:08:02,800
No, I used
common sense on that.
2679
02:08:03,400 --> 02:08:06,100
If someone was doing it,
they must've wanted to,
2680
02:08:06,400 --> 02:08:08,100
and if they were doing something
they wanted to
2681
02:08:08,200 --> 02:08:09,400
it must've
made them happy.
2682
02:08:09,500 --> 02:08:11,700
I don't think they were doin' it
'cause someone forced them to
2683
02:08:11,800 --> 02:08:13,500
or because they
didn't want to.
2684
02:08:14,300 --> 02:08:15,900
So, in your mind...
2685
02:08:16,900 --> 02:08:20,000
The person that
killed these three kids,
2686
02:08:20,700 --> 02:08:23,700
it's common sense that
killing three 8 years olds
2687
02:08:23,800 --> 02:08:25,200
would make you feel good.
2688
02:08:25,300 --> 02:08:26,900
Whoever did it,
it must have.
2689
02:08:27,700 --> 02:08:29,400
Did you also tell him
2690
02:08:29,500 --> 02:08:32,100
that each person had
a demonic side to them?
2691
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:35,500
I believe every person
has a good side and a bad side.
2692
02:08:35,700 --> 02:08:37,200
Were those your words,
2693
02:08:38,100 --> 02:08:40,500
what he's got written down here,
you stated that
2694
02:08:40,800 --> 02:08:42,900
that there was no control
of the demonic force
2695
02:08:43,000 --> 02:08:43,800
in a people?
2696
02:08:44,200 --> 02:08:46,100
He asked me did I think
there were some people
2697
02:08:46,200 --> 02:08:48,400
that could not
control that side,
2698
02:08:48,600 --> 02:08:50,200
I said yes,
I guess there is.
2699
02:08:50,700 --> 02:08:54,000
It also states that you
stated that the younger the victim
2700
02:08:54,100 --> 02:08:55,700
would mean more innocent,
2701
02:08:55,900 --> 02:08:57,300
and in turn more power
2702
02:08:57,500 --> 02:08:59,400
would be given the person
doing the killing.
2703
02:08:59,700 --> 02:09:00,200
Right.
2704
02:09:00,600 --> 02:09:01,500
Did you say that?
2705
02:09:01,600 --> 02:09:02,100
Yes.
2706
02:09:02,200 --> 02:09:03,300
Those are your words.
2707
02:09:04,100 --> 02:09:06,900
Did you pick that up when
studying to be a catholic?
2708
02:09:07,100 --> 02:09:07,600
No.
2709
02:09:07,700 --> 02:09:10,400
I saw that on
several movies, books.
2710
02:09:11,500 --> 02:09:13,000
Question No.11,
2711
02:09:13,100 --> 02:09:15,700
when he asked you,
how do you think they died,
2712
02:09:17,200 --> 02:09:18,000
the answer is,
2713
02:09:18,100 --> 02:09:20,300
"mutilation,
cut up all three,
2714
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:23,100
"heard they were
in the water drowning,
2715
02:09:23,700 --> 02:09:25,700
cut up one more
than the others..."
2716
02:09:27,900 --> 02:09:31,300
Is that again
what officer Ridge said
2717
02:09:31,400 --> 02:09:32,600
and you just agreed?
2718
02:09:32,700 --> 02:09:35,500
No, I saw that on TV,
newspapers,
2719
02:09:35,800 --> 02:09:36,700
people talkin'.
2720
02:09:38,500 --> 02:09:39,400
And...
2721
02:09:42,900 --> 02:09:44,900
You knew about
the drowning, correct?
2722
02:09:45,600 --> 02:09:47,200
I knew that they were
in the water,
2723
02:09:47,300 --> 02:09:48,400
I didn't know
that they drowned.
2724
02:09:48,600 --> 02:09:50,500
You knew that one was
cut up more than the others?
2725
02:09:50,600 --> 02:09:53,900
He said, "do you think one was
hurt worse than the others?"
2726
02:09:54,200 --> 02:09:57,200
Oh, so again,
that particular area's,
2727
02:09:57,400 --> 02:09:59,000
one of those things
where officer Ridge told you
2728
02:09:59,100 --> 02:10:01,200
and that wasn't
your response,
2729
02:10:01,300 --> 02:10:03,800
you just responded about
the drowning and mutilation.
2730
02:10:04,200 --> 02:10:05,900
If he didn't get
the answer he liked,
2731
02:10:06,000 --> 02:10:07,800
he would go back and try to
get me to say something else.
2732
02:10:07,900 --> 02:10:09,600
And it's your testimony,
specifically,
2733
02:10:09,700 --> 02:10:11,200
that you weren't
the one who said
2734
02:10:11,300 --> 02:10:12,900
that one was cut up
more than the other,
2735
02:10:13,200 --> 02:10:15,300
that it was officer Ridge
who said that.
2736
02:10:15,400 --> 02:10:17,100
I agreed with him
when he said that.
2737
02:10:18,000 --> 02:10:19,400
And if he says
something different,
2738
02:10:19,500 --> 02:10:21,800
he'd be lying
about it, right?
2739
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:23,300
You're the one
tellin' the truth.
2740
02:10:23,400 --> 02:10:24,900
I wouldn't
put it past him.
2741
02:10:29,700 --> 02:10:31,800
Damien, we're getting
close to the end now.
2742
02:10:32,100 --> 02:10:33,400
How do you
feel so far?
2743
02:10:35,300 --> 02:10:36,600
I feel good so far.
2744
02:10:38,200 --> 02:10:40,200
To me it looks like
we got it beat.
2745
02:10:40,500 --> 02:10:43,700
What do you think the
worst thing for us has been?
2746
02:10:45,400 --> 02:10:47,100
In the three weeks
we've been here,
2747
02:10:47,200 --> 02:10:48,700
what has
hurt the most?
2748
02:10:49,400 --> 02:10:51,600
I only know of two things
that have really hurt,
2749
02:10:51,900 --> 02:10:54,000
that one kid gettin'
up there for Jason,
2750
02:10:55,400 --> 02:10:56,600
and those girls.
2751
02:10:57,600 --> 02:10:59,400
The Thursday's newspaper
2752
02:10:59,500 --> 02:11:01,500
which addressed you
testifying on Wednesday,
2753
02:11:01,800 --> 02:11:03,000
was real good.
2754
02:11:03,200 --> 02:11:04,900
It talked about
that you did well,
2755
02:11:05,300 --> 02:11:07,400
but Friday's,
regarding your Thurday testimony
2756
02:11:07,500 --> 02:11:09,400
wasn't as good,
what do you think?
2757
02:11:09,800 --> 02:11:11,300
I think I did real good
the first day,
2758
02:11:11,300 --> 02:11:13,300
the second day
it didn't look as good,
2759
02:11:13,400 --> 02:11:16,100
because they kept trying
to trip me up or something.
2760
02:11:16,900 --> 02:11:19,400
There was one point
in there where he asked you
2761
02:11:19,800 --> 02:11:23,100
he says "it looks like your
just changin' your story,
2762
02:11:24,200 --> 02:11:26,300
to fit
whatever comes up",
2763
02:11:26,400 --> 02:11:27,500
and you said "yeah".
2764
02:11:28,700 --> 02:11:30,900
I was just like
halfway listening to him.
2765
02:11:31,900 --> 02:11:34,500
I was real nervous
when I first got up there,
2766
02:11:34,600 --> 02:11:36,600
enough to keep my
attention focused,
2767
02:11:37,000 --> 02:11:38,400
after I was
up there a few minutes,
2768
02:11:38,500 --> 02:11:40,100
I just started day dreaming.
2769
02:11:42,100 --> 02:11:43,000
"Day dreaming".
2770
02:11:48,100 --> 02:11:51,500
Maybe they'll only halfway
kill you when they convict you.
2771
02:11:52,300 --> 02:11:53,000
"Halfway"?
2772
02:11:53,500 --> 02:11:54,300
How do they do that?
2773
02:11:54,400 --> 02:11:55,300
I don't know,
2774
02:11:55,600 --> 02:11:57,500
maybe they'll start
day dreaming.
2775
02:12:00,800 --> 02:12:03,700
Anything wrong with wearing
black in and of itself?
2776
02:12:04,900 --> 02:12:05,600
No.
2777
02:12:06,900 --> 02:12:09,500
Anything wrong with
the heavy metal stuff?
2778
02:12:09,900 --> 02:12:10,500
No...
2779
02:12:10,800 --> 02:12:13,500
The book,
anything wrong with that?
2780
02:12:14,100 --> 02:12:15,900
No, but when
you look at it together,
2781
02:12:16,000 --> 02:12:18,900
you begin to see inside
2782
02:12:19,700 --> 02:12:20,800
Damien Echols,
2783
02:12:21,100 --> 02:12:23,400
you see inside
that person,
2784
02:12:23,900 --> 02:12:26,600
and you look inside there
and there's not a soul in there.
2785
02:12:27,000 --> 02:12:28,800
My client is a teen-ager,
2786
02:12:28,900 --> 02:12:30,800
and we certainly didn't
hide that fact from ya.
2787
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:33,900
And the fact that my client
did some writings,
2788
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:36,200
take these back,
go back and read 'em,
2789
02:12:36,800 --> 02:12:39,200
but this, in and of itself,
2790
02:12:39,300 --> 02:12:40,400
is no evidence of murder,
2791
02:12:40,500 --> 02:12:42,600
and even if you added
all the other things,
2792
02:12:42,800 --> 02:12:44,200
"trappings of occultism",
2793
02:12:44,300 --> 02:12:46,000
according to
Dr. Griffis,
2794
02:12:46,600 --> 02:12:49,100
that has nothing to do
with this case whatsoever.
2795
02:12:49,200 --> 02:12:50,600
Is it a coincidence...
2796
02:12:52,700 --> 02:12:56,100
that this knife is found,
in the lake,
2797
02:12:56,400 --> 02:12:57,400
hidden...
2798
02:12:58,200 --> 02:13:00,100
behind Jason Baldwin's house?
2799
02:13:00,600 --> 02:13:03,300
There are marks
on Christopher Byers,
2800
02:13:03,600 --> 02:13:05,800
where you got
like a dash,
2801
02:13:05,900 --> 02:13:07,600
where it's a cut,
2802
02:13:08,000 --> 02:13:09,300
a cut, an open space,
2803
02:13:09,500 --> 02:13:10,800
a cut, an open space.
2804
02:13:11,600 --> 02:13:14,800
And if you take
this knife
2805
02:13:15,100 --> 02:13:16,100
and you do that,
2806
02:13:16,200 --> 02:13:18,400
you can see it leaves
2807
02:13:18,900 --> 02:13:21,700
a cut and an open space,
a cut and an open space.
2808
02:13:22,400 --> 02:13:23,900
Now, if you take...
2809
02:13:25,700 --> 02:13:26,900
this knife...
2810
02:13:28,300 --> 02:13:29,200
Exhibit...
2811
02:13:31,000 --> 02:13:32,600
Defense exhibit 6...
2812
02:13:33,700 --> 02:13:35,800
And even with
the slightest pressure,
2813
02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:38,200
it makes a straight line.
2814
02:13:39,200 --> 02:13:40,400
Crime scene...
2815
02:13:41,500 --> 02:13:43,700
It doesn't fit for a kid
2816
02:13:44,300 --> 02:13:45,800
to bleed to death,
2817
02:13:46,800 --> 02:13:48,400
and not leave
a drop behind.
2818
02:13:49,200 --> 02:13:52,200
For all the other injuries
to their faces,
2819
02:13:52,300 --> 02:13:54,600
these other injuries
are gonna bleed too.
2820
02:13:55,500 --> 02:13:57,400
And there's not
a drop of blood?
2821
02:13:58,000 --> 02:13:59,700
Not a drop of blood?
2822
02:14:00,000 --> 02:14:01,100
Look at history,
2823
02:14:01,700 --> 02:14:04,600
look at hundreds of years
of religious history.
2824
02:14:05,200 --> 02:14:07,700
There have been hundreds
of people killed
2825
02:14:07,800 --> 02:14:09,200
in the name of religion.
2826
02:14:09,700 --> 02:14:11,500
It is a motivating force,
2827
02:14:11,600 --> 02:14:14,300
it gives people
who want to do evil,
2828
02:14:14,500 --> 02:14:16,000
want to commit murders,
2829
02:14:16,200 --> 02:14:18,600
a reason to do
what they're doing.
2830
02:14:19,400 --> 02:14:21,000
Satanic panic.
2831
02:14:23,200 --> 02:14:24,700
Yeah, that's a scary thing.
2832
02:14:26,400 --> 02:14:29,400
It's a scarier thing to convict
someone with no evidence,
2833
02:14:29,800 --> 02:14:32,200
if you can't figure it out,
if it doesn't make sense,
2834
02:14:32,400 --> 02:14:33,900
let's call it
a cult killing,
2835
02:14:34,000 --> 02:14:35,800
and find
somebody weird!
2836
02:14:38,700 --> 02:14:40,500
Find somebody
who wears black!
2837
02:14:42,500 --> 02:14:44,500
But, they let one thing
2838
02:14:46,200 --> 02:14:47,700
go by the wayside...
2839
02:14:48,600 --> 02:14:50,700
Is that there's nothing
that links Jason
2840
02:14:51,000 --> 02:14:52,200
to these activities.
2841
02:14:52,900 --> 02:14:54,300
Not one witness says,
2842
02:14:55,200 --> 02:14:57,200
"that's what he does,
that's his beliefs".
2843
02:14:57,400 --> 02:14:59,600
We don't have a writing,
a drawing, a picture,
2844
02:14:59,800 --> 02:15:01,600
not a person, nothing...
2845
02:15:03,200 --> 02:15:04,500
links him to it.
2846
02:15:05,200 --> 02:15:06,400
But that doesn't matter.
2847
02:15:07,100 --> 02:15:08,300
That doesn't matter to them!
2848
02:15:08,500 --> 02:15:10,300
Because he's sittin'
over there with Damien,
2849
02:15:10,500 --> 02:15:11,900
they want you
to convict him.
2850
02:15:12,400 --> 02:15:14,000
Guilt by association
2851
02:15:14,900 --> 02:15:16,800
is a horrible thing.
2852
02:15:26,000 --> 02:15:28,100
Damien, do you
think he looks like you?
2853
02:15:28,400 --> 02:15:30,700
I don't know,
not really.
2854
02:15:31,000 --> 02:15:32,700
I think he's got
Domini's ears.
2855
02:15:43,400 --> 02:15:45,600
Can you change
his diapers, Damien?
2856
02:15:56,000 --> 02:15:57,300
Do you think
you'll be spending
2857
02:15:57,400 --> 02:15:59,200
more time
with your child?
2858
02:16:01,100 --> 02:16:02,000
I hope.
2859
02:16:07,900 --> 02:16:09,300
C'mon, Damien, it's time.
2860
02:16:32,000 --> 02:16:34,600
What's his first words
gonna be, "not guilty"?
2861
02:16:35,900 --> 02:16:38,100
His first words will be
"capital murder".
2862
02:16:54,700 --> 02:16:57,600
What's it feel like to
go through a month long trial
2863
02:16:58,100 --> 02:16:59,700
accused of something
you didn't do?
2864
02:17:00,700 --> 02:17:01,600
Horrible.
2865
02:17:07,000 --> 02:17:07,900
Are you nervous now?
2866
02:17:08,100 --> 02:17:08,800
Yeah.
2867
02:17:09,200 --> 02:17:11,900
There's nothin' we can do now
but sit around and wait,
2868
02:17:13,300 --> 02:17:14,900
but, you got anything
2869
02:17:15,200 --> 02:17:16,500
you wanna ask me?
2870
02:17:19,800 --> 02:17:22,700
Where do we go when
the jury comes back out
2871
02:17:22,800 --> 02:17:24,200
and says
I'm not guilty?
2872
02:17:26,600 --> 02:17:28,000
Where do you wanna go?
2873
02:17:30,500 --> 02:17:31,300
Disneyland maybe.
2874
02:17:31,400 --> 02:17:33,200
Would you like
to go to Disneyland?
2875
02:17:33,800 --> 02:17:37,500
Have you ever been
on a trip at all?
2876
02:17:39,000 --> 02:17:40,600
The Springs.
2877
02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:44,900
Well I tell you
what, my man,
2878
02:17:45,000 --> 02:17:46,300
it would be a Joy
to take you.
2879
02:17:48,600 --> 02:17:50,000
Would you like to go?
2880
02:17:50,200 --> 02:17:50,800
Yeah.
2881
02:17:51,800 --> 02:17:53,100
Do you understand now
2882
02:17:55,100 --> 02:17:57,200
why we didn't
want you to testify?
2883
02:17:57,300 --> 02:17:57,900
Yeah.
2884
02:18:00,100 --> 02:18:02,900
Do you see how that hurt Damien,
I think it did.
2885
02:18:03,500 --> 02:18:05,600
Did you see how they
talked about his witnesses?
2886
02:18:06,300 --> 02:18:08,100
They didn't have anything
to talk about us,
2887
02:18:09,000 --> 02:18:10,200
they didn't have
anything to talk about,
2888
02:18:10,300 --> 02:18:11,800
'cause we didn't
give 'em a chance.
2889
02:18:13,500 --> 02:18:14,300
And...
2890
02:18:17,400 --> 02:18:18,400
Oh, man.
2891
02:18:19,800 --> 02:18:20,700
It's heavy.
2892
02:18:25,500 --> 02:18:27,000
Do you think that
2893
02:18:27,700 --> 02:18:29,400
this will change at all...
2894
02:18:31,900 --> 02:18:33,400
How you choose
your friends?
2895
02:18:34,500 --> 02:18:35,200
Yeah.
2896
02:18:37,400 --> 02:18:39,000
What do you think
this will do
2897
02:18:39,300 --> 02:18:42,600
to you and your
friendship with Damien?
2898
02:18:48,300 --> 02:18:49,300
Stop it, I guess.
2899
02:18:49,700 --> 02:18:51,200
Would you stop
being his friend?
2900
02:18:51,800 --> 02:18:53,200
I wouldn't be his enemy,
2901
02:18:53,600 --> 02:18:55,800
but, I probably
wouldn't be around.
2902
02:18:56,700 --> 02:18:59,000
You heard what was
said about him.
2903
02:18:59,300 --> 02:19:00,800
Do you think he
could've done it?
2904
02:19:04,000 --> 02:19:05,400
About what they said?
2905
02:19:05,500 --> 02:19:08,100
Do you think
Damien could've
2906
02:19:08,800 --> 02:19:10,200
killed those little boys?
2907
02:19:22,000 --> 02:19:24,100
They made it
seem like he did.
2908
02:19:26,700 --> 02:19:27,600
What do you think?
2909
02:19:27,800 --> 02:19:28,900
I don't know.
2910
02:19:33,500 --> 02:19:34,700
If you were
on that jury
2911
02:19:34,800 --> 02:19:36,900
would you have a hard time
letting him go?
2912
02:19:39,000 --> 02:19:40,200
Based on
what you heard?
2913
02:19:41,200 --> 02:19:41,800
Yeah.
2914
02:19:49,600 --> 02:19:50,600
I would too.
2915
02:19:51,700 --> 02:19:53,100
Would you
let yourself go?
2916
02:19:57,300 --> 02:19:58,000
Yeah.
2917
02:19:58,500 --> 02:19:59,300
If I was...
2918
02:19:59,600 --> 02:20:01,200
Up there
I'd let myself go.
2919
02:20:03,200 --> 02:20:04,700
That's the answer
I wanna hear.
2920
02:20:04,900 --> 02:20:06,500
'Cause you know you
didn't do it, don't you?
2921
02:20:06,600 --> 02:20:07,100
Yeah.
2922
02:20:11,400 --> 02:20:13,600
Did Paul surprise
you on his closing?
2923
02:20:14,600 --> 02:20:16,100
I think Paul
should've left out
2924
02:20:16,200 --> 02:20:18,000
the guilt
by association part.
2925
02:20:18,500 --> 02:20:20,900
He came out hard on that,
didn't he?
2926
02:20:21,800 --> 02:20:23,500
Did you have any idea
he was gonna do that?
2927
02:20:25,700 --> 02:20:28,200
I thought he'd be smart enough
to stay away from that.
2928
02:20:29,700 --> 02:20:30,900
Hurt your feelings?
2929
02:20:33,100 --> 02:20:34,700
I wanted to
strangle him.
2930
02:20:40,000 --> 02:20:41,300
Were you
watching the jury?
2931
02:20:43,700 --> 02:20:44,700
How do you pick it?
2932
02:20:46,200 --> 02:20:47,400
With my finger.
2933
02:20:51,600 --> 02:20:53,500
Now, I think it was
probably about 60-40.
2934
02:20:54,500 --> 02:20:55,200
40 for us,
2935
02:20:55,300 --> 02:20:56,500
and 60 against us.
2936
02:21:00,800 --> 02:21:02,500
Once you get outta here,
you gonna buy the beer?
2937
02:21:03,800 --> 02:21:04,800
The whiskey.
2938
02:21:06,600 --> 02:21:07,700
I don't want beer.
2939
02:21:09,700 --> 02:21:11,200
And I'll buy
the Bojangles chicken.
2940
02:21:19,200 --> 02:21:20,600
I wanna get a cigar,
2941
02:21:21,100 --> 02:21:22,500
cut it open and dump
all the tobacco out,
2942
02:21:24,000 --> 02:21:25,600
fill it up with marijuana,
2943
02:21:26,400 --> 02:21:27,700
smoke the whole thing.
2944
02:21:28,300 --> 02:21:29,800
We gotta
get you out of here,
2945
02:21:29,900 --> 02:21:31,800
you gotta go to work
and pay my bill.
2946
02:21:34,400 --> 02:21:36,600
I'll get a job at
a gas station or something,
2947
02:21:37,000 --> 02:21:38,800
change my name
to "Bob Smith".
2948
02:21:39,700 --> 02:21:41,300
Alright, ladies and gentlemen,
2949
02:21:41,400 --> 02:21:44,300
the bailiff's informed me
that you've arrived at verdicts,
2950
02:21:44,500 --> 02:21:47,400
if you have, pass them
to the bailiff or the sheriff.
2951
02:22:10,600 --> 02:22:12,400
The first verdict
reads at as follows,
2952
02:22:12,400 --> 02:22:15,300
"We the jury find Damien Echols
guilty of capital murder
2953
02:22:15,400 --> 02:22:17,300
"in the death
of Stevie Branch,
2954
02:22:18,400 --> 02:22:21,700
"We the jury find Damien Echols
guilty of capital murder
2955
02:22:21,700 --> 02:22:23,600
"in the death of
Chris Byers,
2956
02:22:24,900 --> 02:22:27,700
"We the jury find Damien Echols
guilty of capital murder
2957
02:22:27,800 --> 02:22:29,300
"in the death
of Michael Moore.
2958
02:22:30,100 --> 02:22:33,000
"We the jury find Jason Baldwin
guilty of capital murder
2959
02:22:33,000 --> 02:22:35,100
"in the the death
of Chris Byers,
2960
02:22:35,700 --> 02:22:38,800
"We the jury find Jason Baldwin
guilty of capital murder
2961
02:22:38,800 --> 02:22:40,500
"in the death
of Stevie Branch,
2962
02:22:41,800 --> 02:22:44,700
"We the jury find Jason Baldwin
guilty of capital murder
2963
02:22:44,800 --> 02:22:46,400
in the death
of Michael Moore",
2964
02:22:46,800 --> 02:22:50,200
all of the verdicts
were signed by the foreman.
2965
02:22:50,700 --> 02:22:51,700
Ladies and gentlemen,
2966
02:22:51,800 --> 02:22:53,900
it's necessary at this time
that the court
2967
02:22:54,900 --> 02:22:56,300
poll the jury,
2968
02:22:56,400 --> 02:22:58,100
as to all six verdicts,
2969
02:22:58,200 --> 02:23:01,300
so when your
name is called,
2970
02:23:01,600 --> 02:23:02,900
if these six verdicts
2971
02:23:03,100 --> 02:23:05,300
represent your
individual verdict,
2972
02:23:05,500 --> 02:23:08,400
then answer "yes"
as your name is called.
2973
02:23:09,700 --> 02:23:10,900
Juror number one.
2974
02:23:11,500 --> 02:23:12,100
Yes.
2975
02:23:12,300 --> 02:23:13,500
Juror number two.
2976
02:23:13,500 --> 02:23:13,900
Yes.
2977
02:23:15,100 --> 02:23:16,500
Juror number three.
2978
02:23:17,100 --> 02:23:17,700
Yes.
2979
02:23:30,100 --> 02:23:31,400
Juror number seven.
2980
02:23:31,700 --> 02:23:32,200
Yes.
2981
02:23:32,700 --> 02:23:34,800
The prosecution didn't
have any evidence,
2982
02:23:35,000 --> 02:23:36,300
but they don't care.
2983
02:23:36,900 --> 02:23:39,000
Just because
somebody wears black
2984
02:23:39,100 --> 02:23:40,100
and has different beliefs,
2985
02:23:40,300 --> 02:23:41,800
they're gonna convict them
of something.
2986
02:23:42,300 --> 02:23:45,100
Poor, poor parents,
yeah, I'm sorry for 'em--
2987
02:23:45,400 --> 02:23:47,500
I ain't, I
ain't sorry for 'em.
2988
02:23:49,900 --> 02:23:51,400
I don't give a
damn about the parents,
2989
02:23:51,500 --> 02:23:52,400
but I'm sorry
for the kids.
2990
02:23:52,500 --> 02:23:53,100
I ain't,
2991
02:23:55,000 --> 02:23:56,300
ain't sorry for anybody.
2992
02:23:57,300 --> 02:23:58,700
There's no reason to
2993
02:23:59,900 --> 02:24:01,400
kill three more boys.
2994
02:24:02,100 --> 02:24:04,300
That didn't do
a damn thing.
2995
02:24:05,500 --> 02:24:07,400
Right now I
wish I was a witch,
2996
02:24:07,500 --> 02:24:09,500
talk about
a spell on somebody.
2997
02:24:09,800 --> 02:24:11,300
Boy, I'd put
a good one on.
2998
02:24:13,000 --> 02:24:15,000
I guess Gitchell goes out
with a big "bang",
2999
02:24:15,100 --> 02:24:17,000
you know he's fuckin'
gonna retire.
3000
02:24:19,000 --> 02:24:21,100
Now he's probably
gonna run for office.
3001
02:24:22,500 --> 02:24:24,900
I got an office for him.
3002
02:24:26,000 --> 02:24:27,300
Mayor of hell.
3003
02:24:27,500 --> 02:24:30,100
As far as I'm concerned
West Memphis can go to hell.
3004
02:24:30,400 --> 02:24:31,900
West Memphis is hell.
3005
02:24:32,400 --> 02:24:35,000
I have put
my 20 years in,
3006
02:24:35,700 --> 02:24:38,700
and hopefully this is
the last case
3007
02:24:38,800 --> 02:24:40,900
I'll have
of this magnitude,
3008
02:24:41,700 --> 02:24:43,300
hopefully,
it's my last case.
3009
02:24:43,800 --> 02:24:44,600
And...
3010
02:24:45,500 --> 02:24:47,000
I'm leaving
on a high note.
3011
02:24:47,100 --> 02:24:48,700
So there's no better
way to leave
3012
02:24:48,900 --> 02:24:50,700
than your head up,
high and proud.
3013
02:24:52,400 --> 02:24:54,100
Well you know,
I don't--
3014
02:24:56,600 --> 02:24:59,400
I'm not surprised,
if that's what you're asking.
3015
02:24:59,500 --> 02:25:00,400
I told you earlier,
3016
02:25:00,500 --> 02:25:02,900
I thought the evidence
was more than sufficient
3017
02:25:03,000 --> 02:25:04,300
to make those findings.
3018
02:25:05,000 --> 02:25:06,600
They won't kill
no more babies.
3019
02:25:07,000 --> 02:25:08,900
No more babies
will they kill.
3020
02:25:10,800 --> 02:25:11,600
Let's go.
3021
02:26:28,900 --> 02:26:30,700
You're gonna get out!
3022
02:26:37,300 --> 02:26:39,400
You're gonna fry, Damien!
3023
02:26:40,400 --> 02:26:42,600
You're gonna fry, Damien!
3024
02:26:47,900 --> 02:26:49,800
We know you're
innocent, Jason!
3025
02:27:24,300 --> 02:27:26,300
I knew from when
I was real small,
3026
02:27:27,400 --> 02:27:29,200
that people were
gonna know who I was,
3027
02:27:29,300 --> 02:27:30,400
I always had that feelin',
3028
02:27:30,700 --> 02:27:32,400
but, I just never knew how
3029
02:27:33,100 --> 02:27:34,500
they were gonna learn.
3030
02:27:36,400 --> 02:27:38,900
I kinda enjoy it,
'cause now even after I die,
3031
02:27:39,000 --> 02:27:41,300
people are gonna
remember me forever,
3032
02:27:41,700 --> 02:27:43,600
they're gonna
talk about me for years,
3033
02:27:44,600 --> 02:27:46,200
people in West Memphis will
3034
02:27:46,500 --> 02:27:47,900
tell their kids stories,
3035
02:27:48,100 --> 02:27:49,100
it'll be sort of like
3036
02:27:49,600 --> 02:27:52,500
I'm the West Memphis boogey man.
3037
02:27:52,600 --> 02:27:55,500
Little kids will be
lookin' under their bed,
3038
02:27:55,600 --> 02:27:57,100
"Damien might be
under there."