1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,629 Hello, I'm Frank Thompson. I'm a writer and film historian. 2 00:00:05,962 --> 00:00:07,918 And this is Paul Hutton, I'm a Western historian... 3 00:00:08,173 --> 00:00:11,085 ...run the Western History Association as executive director... 4 00:00:11,384 --> 00:00:13,136 ...and teach at the University of New Mexico. 5 00:00:13,428 --> 00:00:16,101 And I'm Steve Aron, I'm professor of history at UCLA... 6 00:00:16,388 --> 00:00:17,741 ...and I'm executive director... 7 00:00:17,973 --> 00:00:20,168 ...of the Institute for the Study of the American West... 8 00:00:20,517 --> 00:00:22,109 ...at the Autry National Center. 9 00:00:22,353 --> 00:00:25,902 And we're all here to talk about Lawrence Kasdan's Silverado... 10 00:00:26,274 --> 00:00:30,153 ...one of the last of the old-style Westerns... 11 00:00:30,487 --> 00:00:36,801 ...and a forerunner of the modern Western of the 21 st century. 12 00:00:37,243 --> 00:00:38,437 Though it's interesting... 13 00:00:38,661 --> 00:00:41,619 ...because it really is, also, as all Westerns are... 14 00:00:41,914 --> 00:00:44,474 ...a movie that is as much about its time... 15 00:00:44,750 --> 00:00:48,629 ...as about the time in which it's set. 16 00:00:49,379 --> 00:00:52,576 It's clearly also a 1980s Western. 17 00:00:52,924 --> 00:00:54,437 Oh, very much. And not only that... 18 00:00:54,676 --> 00:00:57,315 ...of course, the Western was pretty well dead by this time... 19 00:00:57,596 --> 00:01:01,874 ...and Kasdan was making a heroic effort to bring it back. 20 00:01:05,980 --> 00:01:08,494 Well, you know, the thing is, the Western is pronounced dead... 21 00:01:08,773 --> 00:01:11,048 ...on various occasions and then makes... 22 00:01:11,318 --> 00:01:13,912 ...its sort of temporary, at least, resurrection. 23 00:01:14,237 --> 00:01:16,353 Well, the Eastern intellectual establishment... 24 00:01:16,615 --> 00:01:18,526 ...continues to put a stake through its heart... 25 00:01:18,783 --> 00:01:21,934 ...and, of course, Dracula still rises from the grave over and over. 26 00:01:22,245 --> 00:01:24,679 The Western will never die. 27 00:01:26,041 --> 00:01:28,555 The interesting thing is, in the '60s and early '70s... 28 00:01:28,835 --> 00:01:31,269 ...there were a lot of Westerns... 29 00:01:31,546 --> 00:01:34,538 ...that were clearly trying to change the face of the form: 30 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:41,279 The Wild Bunch, the darker Westerns like Dirty Little Billy and Doc... 31 00:01:41,723 --> 00:01:43,998 ...but this is as classic as you could possibly want. 32 00:01:44,309 --> 00:01:47,585 Almost every element of the classic Western is represented... 33 00:01:47,895 --> 00:01:50,284 ...at some point in this movie. 34 00:01:50,606 --> 00:01:52,244 It has this modern cast... 35 00:01:52,483 --> 00:01:57,113 ...and at the time, of course, they were all, you know, hot young actors... 36 00:01:57,488 --> 00:02:01,163 ...but the story itself, and the way that it's told... 37 00:02:01,491 --> 00:02:05,166 ...is very much in the classic John Ford mould. 38 00:02:05,495 --> 00:02:08,134 The cast is interesting, of course, because Kasdan... 39 00:02:08,415 --> 00:02:10,531 ...really goes against type in his casting of Westerns. 40 00:02:10,792 --> 00:02:12,305 He did the same thing in Wyatt Earp... 41 00:02:12,544 --> 00:02:14,535 ...and sometimes I think it works against him... 42 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:16,388 ...because he doesn't use... 43 00:02:16,631 --> 00:02:18,861 ...some of those grizzled old character actors that... 44 00:02:19,134 --> 00:02:20,965 You know, a Ben Johnson, a Buck Taylor... 45 00:02:21,220 --> 00:02:23,893 ...that make us feel warm and fuzzy when we watch a Western. 46 00:02:24,181 --> 00:02:25,455 That sense of familiarity. 47 00:02:25,725 --> 00:02:29,195 So he was daring in his casting on this. 48 00:02:29,519 --> 00:02:32,511 As soon as we start hearing the opening strains of this theme... 49 00:02:32,814 --> 00:02:36,443 ...by Bruce Broughton, you know you're in classic territory. 50 00:02:36,818 --> 00:02:40,606 To me, the gold standard of Western musical scores... 51 00:02:40,947 --> 00:02:43,142 ...are Alfred Newman's How the West Was Won... 52 00:02:43,408 --> 00:02:45,524 ...Elmer Bernstein's The Magnificent Seven... 53 00:02:45,785 --> 00:02:49,414 ...Jerry Fielding's The Wild Bunch. 54 00:02:49,747 --> 00:02:53,376 I think it's a great compliment to say that this score is up there with them... 55 00:02:53,709 --> 00:02:57,384 ...and it can really be talked about in the same sense. 56 00:02:57,713 --> 00:03:01,103 This is a terrific, wonderful, rousing score. 57 00:03:01,426 --> 00:03:04,498 Now, I'm surprised you didn't mention the scores to the spaghetti Westerns... 58 00:03:04,804 --> 00:03:07,272 ...in that this gives me a chance, both to plug... 59 00:03:07,557 --> 00:03:10,025 At the Autry National Center next summer, we are opening... 60 00:03:10,309 --> 00:03:13,460 ...a major exhibition on the films of Sergio Leone... 61 00:03:13,771 --> 00:03:17,684 ...both on the Westerns that influenced him, and then, in turn... 62 00:03:18,025 --> 00:03:21,256 ...the films that Sergio Leone has... The modern filmmakers... 63 00:03:21,570 --> 00:03:25,085 ...who Sergio Leone has influenced, including Scorsese... 64 00:03:25,407 --> 00:03:27,557 ...and Quentin Tarantino, most obviously. 65 00:03:27,826 --> 00:03:31,341 But there, I think the scores of those movies are particularly memorable. 66 00:03:31,663 --> 00:03:34,223 In fact, I think people remember the score of the movie... 67 00:03:34,499 --> 00:03:36,729 ...more than they actually remember any of those movies... 68 00:03:37,001 --> 00:03:40,277 ...other than that Clint Eastwood was a poncho-wearing character in them. 69 00:03:40,631 --> 00:03:42,986 Yeah, certainly I'm remiss in not mentioning... 70 00:03:43,259 --> 00:03:46,695 ...Ennio Morricone's score for Once Upon a Time in the West... 71 00:03:47,011 --> 00:03:50,128 ...which is one of the great movie scores, Western or not. 72 00:03:50,473 --> 00:03:53,271 That's actually a great score, but I don't care for any of the others... 73 00:03:53,559 --> 00:03:56,756 ...and it seemed to me that the Italian Western helped... 74 00:03:57,063 --> 00:03:58,132 ...to kill the Western. 75 00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:00,074 So I've always had a little edge about it. 76 00:04:00,316 --> 00:04:02,750 There's the part of it that, sometimes, the reinventions... 77 00:04:03,027 --> 00:04:07,464 ...and attempts to reinvent or resurrect, don't necessarily lead... 78 00:04:07,824 --> 00:04:09,735 ...in the sort of revival direction. 79 00:04:09,992 --> 00:04:11,630 And I resisted them for the longest time... 80 00:04:11,869 --> 00:04:14,702 ...but finally I've come over to the dark side and recognised... 81 00:04:14,996 --> 00:04:17,385 ...that Once Upon a Time in the West truly is a great film... 82 00:04:17,666 --> 00:04:21,705 ...and not just because Claudia Cardinale is in it so often... 83 00:04:22,046 --> 00:04:24,321 ...which is the only reason I watched it before, but... 84 00:04:24,590 --> 00:04:26,706 Yes, and what we're watching now is a fine film... 85 00:04:26,968 --> 00:04:28,481 ...but it could use a Claudia Cardinale. 86 00:04:28,761 --> 00:04:31,036 It certainly could. They could've used her in this movie. 87 00:04:31,347 --> 00:04:33,941 Well, or they could've used any fully developed... 88 00:04:34,225 --> 00:04:36,375 ...female character in this movie, I think. 89 00:04:36,686 --> 00:04:38,642 Well, I don't know that "character" is necessary... 90 00:04:38,896 --> 00:04:40,648 ...but your first two adjectives are correct. 91 00:04:40,939 --> 00:04:42,770 - Any fully developed female. - Yes. 92 00:04:43,066 --> 00:04:46,422 Well, no, I do think that, clearly, the Rosanna Arquette character... 93 00:04:46,736 --> 00:04:48,806 ...whose name I don't even remember... 94 00:04:49,072 --> 00:04:50,903 Her name's Hannah. 95 00:04:51,199 --> 00:04:53,269 You know, she's not a particularly strong character... 96 00:04:53,535 --> 00:04:54,809 ...throughout the film... 97 00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:57,834 ...and a lot of it must've wound up on the cutting-room floor... 98 00:04:58,122 --> 00:05:00,795 ...because, clearly, they didn't cast her not to use her more. 99 00:05:01,126 --> 00:05:04,198 By the way, let me put a little plug in for my state of New Mexico here. 100 00:05:04,546 --> 00:05:06,138 We've just gone through the credits... 101 00:05:06,381 --> 00:05:08,337 ...and they've been a wonderful travelogue... 102 00:05:08,591 --> 00:05:11,230 ...for all the scenic wonders of New Mexico... 103 00:05:11,511 --> 00:05:13,422 ...where we have a very active film commission... 104 00:05:13,679 --> 00:05:16,432 ...of which I'm associated, and which, of course... 105 00:05:16,724 --> 00:05:19,477 ...gives great rebates to filmmakers who wanna film in New Mexico. 106 00:05:19,769 --> 00:05:25,366 And you can see how Kasdan loved... As so many others... 107 00:05:25,775 --> 00:05:27,572 ...who've made Westerns in the last 20 years... 108 00:05:27,818 --> 00:05:29,251 ...have loved New Mexico. 109 00:05:29,528 --> 00:05:32,088 Well, that's one of the enduringly great things about Westerns... 110 00:05:32,364 --> 00:05:35,162 ...is it's so much about landscape and the kind of people... 111 00:05:35,450 --> 00:05:39,443 ...who went to find these, and to inhabit these lands... 112 00:05:39,789 --> 00:05:42,178 ...and so, really, all you have to do is point the camera... 113 00:05:42,458 --> 00:05:44,892 ...at scenery like that and you're okay. 114 00:05:45,211 --> 00:05:46,803 Well, the great thing about New Mexico... 115 00:05:47,046 --> 00:05:49,321 ...is, actually, variety within a very tight space. 116 00:05:49,632 --> 00:05:53,511 I just worked on The Missing, I was historical consultant on it... 117 00:05:53,844 --> 00:05:55,357 ...and Ron Howard was just captivated... 118 00:05:55,596 --> 00:05:59,191 ...by how he could get alpine mountains... 119 00:05:59,515 --> 00:06:02,825 ...he could get deserts, he could get barren moonscapes... 120 00:06:03,144 --> 00:06:04,623 ...and lush meadows... 121 00:06:04,854 --> 00:06:08,893 ...all within 50 miles of really fine restaurants and hotels in Santa Fe. 122 00:06:09,275 --> 00:06:11,266 Now, where is this actually, though? 123 00:06:11,569 --> 00:06:14,242 These sort of... The full desert scene here. 124 00:06:14,530 --> 00:06:16,327 Well, this is further down, down by Las Cruces. 125 00:06:16,574 --> 00:06:18,326 So most of it is, though, northern New Mexico. 126 00:06:18,619 --> 00:06:21,338 Most of them have been set in somewhere north of Santa Fe? 127 00:06:21,663 --> 00:06:23,779 This was all shot right around Santa Fe... 128 00:06:24,041 --> 00:06:25,520 ...and they built a whole movie set... 129 00:06:25,750 --> 00:06:27,980 ...which we'll talk about later when we get to it. 130 00:06:28,628 --> 00:06:30,744 Which, actually, was only about five miles... 131 00:06:31,005 --> 00:06:33,314 ...where I lived in El Dorado, in Santa Fe. 132 00:06:33,591 --> 00:06:36,742 And it's also the movie set that was used on The Missing... 133 00:06:37,053 --> 00:06:40,728 ...it was also used for Young Guns II and several other Westerns. 134 00:06:41,098 --> 00:06:45,649 Now, these guys have just, what we call in the movie biz, "met cute." 135 00:06:46,062 --> 00:06:48,018 Is that a movie-biz term? 136 00:06:48,272 --> 00:06:51,469 We don't say that in the history business. 137 00:06:51,775 --> 00:06:54,084 Not if you wanna keep tenure, you don't say that. 138 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,956 And, mostly, the people who meet cute are the hero and the heroine... 139 00:06:59,325 --> 00:07:01,793 ...and I think it's really significant that these two guys... 140 00:07:02,077 --> 00:07:05,069 ...are really the romantic centre of this movie. 141 00:07:05,414 --> 00:07:08,133 I'm not insinuating. No, I'm not suggesting anything. 142 00:07:08,459 --> 00:07:15,058 I'm simply saying that in lacking a strong female character in this film... 143 00:07:16,592 --> 00:07:20,710 ...these two are really the emotional bond of the movie. 144 00:07:21,054 --> 00:07:23,443 Though there was, I think, some idea that Rosanna Arquette... 145 00:07:23,723 --> 00:07:27,159 ...would be the third part of this triangle. 146 00:07:27,477 --> 00:07:28,751 I've heard that suggested... 147 00:07:28,978 --> 00:07:31,367 ...but it certainly isn't borne out in the film that we see. 148 00:07:31,647 --> 00:07:35,879 � la Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, I suppose. 149 00:07:38,488 --> 00:07:41,924 It's nice to have guys who care about each other in Westerns. 150 00:07:42,242 --> 00:07:44,278 And indeed, you know, McMurtry is currently... 151 00:07:44,535 --> 00:07:48,653 They're filming a new Larry McMurtry story even as we speak... 152 00:07:48,998 --> 00:07:52,877 ...and it is allegedly the first great gay Western. 153 00:07:53,210 --> 00:07:55,440 I've always wondered about Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp... 154 00:07:55,713 --> 00:07:56,987 ...in all those films. 155 00:07:57,256 --> 00:08:02,250 Well, it's certainly a subject that goes all the way back... 156 00:08:02,636 --> 00:08:04,035 ...in all the great Westerns. 157 00:08:04,263 --> 00:08:06,094 I mean, there's rarely... 158 00:08:06,348 --> 00:08:11,024 ...a really good heterosexual romance in any of the great classic Westerns. 159 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:14,189 There are mostly men who bond. 160 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,550 The Wild Bunch is a perfect example. 161 00:08:16,858 --> 00:08:20,009 But here, at least, you have men bonding, caring about one another... 162 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,551 ...protecting one another, in a sense, as opposed to the newest Western... 163 00:08:23,866 --> 00:08:25,743 ...the David Milch version, Deadwood... 164 00:08:25,993 --> 00:08:28,666 ...where everyone is out to do each other in, it seems. 165 00:08:28,954 --> 00:08:31,946 Well, Deadwood is very much more in the tradition... 166 00:08:32,249 --> 00:08:35,719 ...of the ones I mentioned earlier, Dirty Little Billy, Doc... 167 00:08:36,044 --> 00:08:39,275 ...those dark, sleazy, horrible, underside Westerns. 168 00:08:39,589 --> 00:08:42,023 But I think Deadwood is really a brilliant series. 169 00:08:42,341 --> 00:08:45,060 Deadwood is wonderful. You know, I was actually struck, though... 170 00:08:45,344 --> 00:08:48,495 ...that this film, especially in its characterisations... 171 00:08:48,806 --> 00:08:51,274 ...had sort of a forerunner of Deadwood. 172 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,517 This is one of the sets that's not far from Santa Fe, by the way. 173 00:08:54,812 --> 00:08:56,325 Which they've really dressed out nicely. 174 00:08:56,564 --> 00:08:57,963 In fact, I just used this set... 175 00:08:58,191 --> 00:09:02,264 ...for a History Channel episode of Investigating History I did... 176 00:09:02,612 --> 00:09:04,842 ...on Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. 177 00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:07,795 It's now in complete ruins. It's interesting to see when it was new. 178 00:09:08,117 --> 00:09:12,633 But here, this one set, where we have, actually, adobe-style housing... 179 00:09:12,997 --> 00:09:15,955 ...is the one hint in the movie, it seems, that this is a territory... 180 00:09:16,250 --> 00:09:18,923 ...that was inhabited by Mexicans. 181 00:09:19,211 --> 00:09:20,803 But most of the movie is... 182 00:09:21,046 --> 00:09:24,880 ...with the exception of Danny Glover, all white people. 183 00:09:25,217 --> 00:09:30,052 That there's no sense of the multiethnic population of New Mexico... 184 00:09:30,430 --> 00:09:32,386 ...and the New Mexican Territory. 185 00:09:32,682 --> 00:09:36,755 So in that sense, it's a movie that, I think, if it were remade today... 186 00:09:37,104 --> 00:09:40,779 ...would be remade with a more multiethnic cast. 187 00:09:41,149 --> 00:09:43,982 And it is interesting that, in fact, Deadwood has that. 188 00:09:44,278 --> 00:09:46,997 You see that the streets are populated with a wide variety of people. 189 00:09:47,281 --> 00:09:49,272 And, of course, in reality... 190 00:09:49,533 --> 00:09:52,047 ...the American West, especially the West Coast... 191 00:09:52,327 --> 00:09:57,196 ...was the most diverse, multiethnic section of the United States... 192 00:09:57,581 --> 00:09:59,139 ...in the time of the Wild West. 193 00:09:59,417 --> 00:10:00,975 There's just no question about it. 194 00:10:01,210 --> 00:10:02,484 And one of the wonders of it... 195 00:10:02,711 --> 00:10:05,179 ...would be that you would meet all kinds of different people... 196 00:10:05,464 --> 00:10:07,341 ...you would eat all kinds of different foods... 197 00:10:07,591 --> 00:10:09,104 ...see all kinds of different clothing. 198 00:10:09,343 --> 00:10:10,412 So it was the exotic... 199 00:10:10,636 --> 00:10:12,945 ...and that was one of the appeals of the West. 200 00:10:14,223 --> 00:10:18,057 We can tell that he has a sense of humour about the West here... 201 00:10:18,395 --> 00:10:19,589 ...which comes out. 202 00:10:19,813 --> 00:10:22,611 And, again, one more example of fine shooting so that we know that... 203 00:10:22,898 --> 00:10:25,492 And for a gun that won't even hold together long enough to load it. 204 00:10:25,776 --> 00:10:28,688 I do know one, at least one backwoods story that was told... 205 00:10:28,987 --> 00:10:30,466 ...this was about Daniel Boone... 206 00:10:30,698 --> 00:10:33,576 ...but about various frontier hunters in Kentucky in a much earlier era... 207 00:10:33,867 --> 00:10:36,745 ...but, again, where, in a William Tell-like move... 208 00:10:37,037 --> 00:10:39,267 ...it was reported that people did something like that... 209 00:10:39,540 --> 00:10:43,010 ...where they placed the target between the legs of the person... 210 00:10:43,335 --> 00:10:44,768 ...as opposed to atop the head... 211 00:10:45,003 --> 00:10:48,712 ...which I guess was evidence of the deepest play. 212 00:10:49,049 --> 00:10:52,439 I believe that's called frontier male bonding. 213 00:10:53,344 --> 00:10:57,337 That's why there were so many altos in the Old West. 214 00:10:58,433 --> 00:11:00,993 Oh, another great character actor being introduced... 215 00:11:01,269 --> 00:11:03,908 ...but, again, a very sort of New York actor. 216 00:11:04,189 --> 00:11:09,343 I mean, all of Kasdan's actors are more Eastern in their sensibility. 217 00:11:09,736 --> 00:11:14,127 And this, I think, speaks not only to the lack of those old character actors... 218 00:11:14,491 --> 00:11:17,881 ...but also to this question of a lack of ethnicity in the movie. 219 00:11:18,244 --> 00:11:21,873 If you even think about a classic Western like The Searchers... 220 00:11:22,206 --> 00:11:25,039 ...for instance, back in the early '50s... 221 00:11:25,334 --> 00:11:27,006 ...there's always that sense of the exotic. 222 00:11:27,252 --> 00:11:31,006 On their travels, they meet lots of different kinds of people. 223 00:11:31,340 --> 00:11:32,978 Of course, The Wild Bunch is full of that. 224 00:11:33,217 --> 00:11:36,095 I mean, The Wild Bunch is all the exotic. 225 00:11:36,388 --> 00:11:39,346 Once they leave the town full of Bible-thumpers... 226 00:11:39,641 --> 00:11:42,280 ...they are in a new and exotic world of Mexico. 227 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,188 Right, but this, I mean, I think it's, as I say, striking, because here... 228 00:11:46,522 --> 00:11:48,638 And Paul, you mentioned when you were talking about... 229 00:11:48,899 --> 00:11:51,857 ...certainly the recent emphasis in Western historical scholarship... 230 00:11:52,152 --> 00:11:54,791 ...on the diversity of peoples in the American West... 231 00:11:55,072 --> 00:11:57,188 ...and the American West as the great meeting ground... 232 00:11:57,449 --> 00:11:59,087 ...of different peoples and cultures... 233 00:11:59,326 --> 00:12:01,965 ...far more so than the eastern half of the United States... 234 00:12:02,245 --> 00:12:07,000 ...where racial relations were configured along a whitelblack axis. 235 00:12:07,376 --> 00:12:10,015 What Western history, I think, has taught us in the last 20 years... 236 00:12:10,294 --> 00:12:13,331 ...or, at least, what Western historical scholarship has tried to teach us... 237 00:12:13,631 --> 00:12:18,022 ...is how much more complicated racial and ethnic relations were in a place... 238 00:12:18,386 --> 00:12:22,982 ...peopled by so many different groups, so many different cultures. 239 00:12:23,391 --> 00:12:27,430 What's striking, though, in this movie is how relatively absent that is... 240 00:12:27,771 --> 00:12:29,363 ...even though it is set in New Mexico... 241 00:12:29,606 --> 00:12:31,881 ...which, while maybe not as ethnically diverse... 242 00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:35,506 ...as the Pacific slope, in terms of the lack of Asian-Americans... 243 00:12:35,819 --> 00:12:40,939 ...certainly had a significant population of... 244 00:12:41,325 --> 00:12:45,716 ...Spanish-speaking people, as well as of American Indians. 245 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,593 And that's absent from this movie... 246 00:12:47,831 --> 00:12:51,062 ...other than the architecture in this scene. 247 00:12:51,376 --> 00:12:52,650 Yeah, not only that, of course... 248 00:12:52,878 --> 00:12:55,073 ...a lot of Chinese miners, that sort of thing. 249 00:12:55,340 --> 00:12:58,491 I think that's just another indication that this movie... 250 00:12:58,843 --> 00:13:01,516 ...is based on other movies, instead of based on Western history. 251 00:13:01,845 --> 00:13:07,203 I mean, this is a classic Western film that takes films as its background. 252 00:13:07,601 --> 00:13:09,876 That was a classic introduction of a Western character... 253 00:13:10,145 --> 00:13:10,185 ...where he comes up, looks the guy up and down... 254 00:13:10,187 --> 00:13:12,064 ...where he comes up, looks the guy up and down... 255 00:13:12,314 --> 00:13:13,588 ...and spits his tobacco out. 256 00:13:13,815 --> 00:13:16,887 That's a clear sign there's gonna be trouble in the future. 257 00:13:17,194 --> 00:13:18,752 Oh, it's the 5th Cavalry Regiment. 258 00:13:18,987 --> 00:13:22,218 You see, now, there's a little piece of history thrown in. 259 00:13:22,532 --> 00:13:24,329 I'm not sure the 5th was ever in New Mexico... 260 00:13:24,576 --> 00:13:26,373 ...but, you know, this really isn't New Mexico. 261 00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:28,497 This is Neverland, where we're set here. 262 00:13:28,787 --> 00:13:30,220 This could be anywhere... 263 00:13:30,456 --> 00:13:34,210 ...and that's what's great about the New Mexico landscape. 264 00:13:34,586 --> 00:13:37,384 - It is Western Brigadoon, isn't it? - It is. Very nice, yeah. 265 00:13:37,714 --> 00:13:40,023 But I don't think Westerns are ever supposed to be... 266 00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:42,177 ...in a particular place, necessarily. 267 00:13:42,427 --> 00:13:45,021 - They are in a mythic space. - They are. 268 00:13:45,305 --> 00:13:47,819 And it's sort of interesting with Western film... 269 00:13:48,099 --> 00:13:49,691 ...and when I teach the Western... 270 00:13:49,934 --> 00:13:53,131 ...even when you're dealing with a film like this, which is completely fictional... 271 00:13:53,438 --> 00:13:57,067 I mean, this isn't based on anything that's historical except the place. 272 00:13:57,399 --> 00:14:01,312 But all Westerns reside in that place, and so we have certain expectations... 273 00:14:01,695 --> 00:14:03,128 ...about what they're going to be... 274 00:14:03,363 --> 00:14:05,399 ...about what kind of action is gonna transpire... 275 00:14:05,657 --> 00:14:07,375 ...about the story line. 276 00:14:07,618 --> 00:14:12,738 And this film is perfectly in keeping with that tradition. 277 00:14:13,123 --> 00:14:16,718 It is at once historical and completely fictional. 278 00:14:17,045 --> 00:14:21,197 And the West it represents is indeed this completely mythic West... 279 00:14:21,548 --> 00:14:26,019 ...that, at the same time, defines who we are as a people. 280 00:14:26,428 --> 00:14:29,818 Now, would you say that some of the attempts to rework the Western... 281 00:14:30,140 --> 00:14:31,812 ...in ways that this one doesn't... 282 00:14:32,058 --> 00:14:35,573 This one, as you pointed out, follows the classic lines... 283 00:14:35,896 --> 00:14:37,215 ...in many respects. 284 00:14:37,439 --> 00:14:42,752 - the ways the Westerns that try to alter the framework in some ways... 285 00:14:43,153 --> 00:14:44,905 ...play with just that? 286 00:14:45,155 --> 00:14:47,874 Usually, when they alter the framework too much, they have trouble. 287 00:14:48,157 --> 00:14:49,556 They run into trouble. 288 00:14:49,783 --> 00:14:52,058 And the alterations, I think... 289 00:14:52,327 --> 00:14:56,445 ...need to be pretty slight for it to survive, but can be, yet, dramatic. 290 00:14:56,791 --> 00:14:59,544 I mean, if you think of a show like Deadwood... 291 00:14:59,878 --> 00:15:02,676 ...what they've done, in terms of language and characterisation... 292 00:15:02,964 --> 00:15:05,524 ...has been pretty dramatic, in terms of breaking with the past... 293 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,360 ...but at the same time, those characters are pretty traditional. 294 00:15:08,636 --> 00:15:11,355 They're just more modern in their language and their sensibilities. 295 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:13,709 Although people cussed in the Old West. 296 00:15:13,974 --> 00:15:16,772 - They had their own cusses. - They had their own peculiar cusses... 297 00:15:17,060 --> 00:15:18,812 ...although they could be very colourful. 298 00:15:19,104 --> 00:15:21,618 Nice sunset. Nice, beautiful New Mexico sunset. 299 00:15:21,898 --> 00:15:23,456 I see those every day. 300 00:15:23,734 --> 00:15:27,647 Well, it seems to me the Western film has its own kind of rules. 301 00:15:27,988 --> 00:15:31,458 Now, look, you get snow. See how perfect New Mexico is? Yes, again. 302 00:15:31,783 --> 00:15:33,694 Well, did they film this in the wintertime? 303 00:15:33,953 --> 00:15:36,069 You don't have to film in the wintertime in New Mexico. 304 00:15:36,330 --> 00:15:37,604 You can go find snow anywhere. 305 00:15:37,832 --> 00:15:42,269 It's height that decides your climate, so if you film in the fall or the spring... 306 00:15:42,627 --> 00:15:44,857 And this is, in fact, the movie ranch they built... 307 00:15:45,130 --> 00:15:47,519 ...not far from Santa Fe. 308 00:15:48,466 --> 00:15:51,458 And that looks like real snow. They didn't dress it. 309 00:15:52,554 --> 00:15:54,306 When we shot The Missing, there was no snow... 310 00:15:54,556 --> 00:15:55,830 ...and we dressed it for snow. 311 00:15:56,057 --> 00:15:57,331 - You had to bring it in? - Yes. 312 00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:01,632 I, in fact, got horrible bronchitis and was flat on my back for two weeks... 313 00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:06,053 ...as a result of all this fake powder that they used for the snow. 314 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,437 But it was worth it, you know, to be in show business. 315 00:16:10,153 --> 00:16:12,109 There was our first look at Rosanna Arquette. 316 00:16:12,364 --> 00:16:13,683 And again... 317 00:16:13,908 --> 00:16:15,819 The hint that there's going to be something more. 318 00:16:16,077 --> 00:16:19,069 Well, the gallows is also a hint that something's coming up. 319 00:16:19,414 --> 00:16:22,087 And again, I would argue that if this Western were being... 320 00:16:22,375 --> 00:16:25,173 If this movie were being remade today, again... 321 00:16:25,461 --> 00:16:29,170 ...and attempting to, in some ways, play off of recent scholarship... 322 00:16:29,507 --> 00:16:31,304 ...which, of course, movies don't have to do... 323 00:16:31,551 --> 00:16:34,702 ...but if it were, again, I think the female role would have been... 324 00:16:35,011 --> 00:16:40,085 ...far more prominent and far more fleshed out than it ends up being. 325 00:16:40,475 --> 00:16:42,386 Or indeed there would be no female whatsoever... 326 00:16:42,644 --> 00:16:44,714 ...and the role between the two male leads would be... 327 00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:46,698 ...much more fleshed out, as you would like. 328 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:49,135 That would be more in keeping with modern scholarship. 329 00:16:49,401 --> 00:16:50,720 Which is just fine with me. 330 00:16:50,944 --> 00:16:53,504 Don't get me wrong, I think everything's fine. 331 00:16:55,908 --> 00:16:59,344 - You're not Baxter? - My name's Emmett. 332 00:17:00,703 --> 00:17:04,412 Well, see, there's cussing right there. You see, he's cutting edge. 333 00:17:04,791 --> 00:17:08,784 Not quite as evocative as David Milch's dialogue. 334 00:17:09,170 --> 00:17:12,958 You know, I have a rule that I apply, which is called the Fanny Hill rule. 335 00:17:13,341 --> 00:17:17,698 If it appears in John Cleland's 1747 British novel, Fanny Hill... 336 00:17:18,054 --> 00:17:19,328 ...then it's fair game. 337 00:17:19,555 --> 00:17:21,511 It was language that was commonly used by people. 338 00:17:21,766 --> 00:17:24,041 And I know of no word... And I'm pretty imaginative. 339 00:17:24,310 --> 00:17:26,266 - I know of no word, no curse word... 340 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,397 ...no description of male or female anatomy... 341 00:17:28,647 --> 00:17:32,322 ...that does not appear in that 1747 novel, so I think we can. 342 00:17:40,618 --> 00:17:44,406 - Thank you. - Don't you want to count it? 343 00:17:44,747 --> 00:17:46,897 We trust you. 344 00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:49,172 Here, the guys, we know they're bad guys... 345 00:17:49,418 --> 00:17:51,648 ...because they don't wanna count the money... 346 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,309 ...and we know that that means they're gonna rob them later... 347 00:17:54,589 --> 00:17:56,147 ...which they certainly are. 348 00:17:57,634 --> 00:18:01,343 By the way, the Western history aficionados... 349 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,432 ...the real people, who really care... 350 00:18:03,681 --> 00:18:06,149 ...as opposed to academics like us... 351 00:18:06,434 --> 00:18:08,550 ...would just be going nuts over all these hats... 352 00:18:08,812 --> 00:18:10,768 ...which are all very modern and very wrong. 353 00:18:11,022 --> 00:18:14,298 Completely wrong for the period. 354 00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:16,441 Much too stylish, much too nice. 355 00:18:16,695 --> 00:18:20,608 The things that period films always are scared... 356 00:18:20,949 --> 00:18:24,624 ...to offend the audience with are hats and hair. 357 00:18:24,953 --> 00:18:28,104 They always give people modern hairstyles. 358 00:18:28,456 --> 00:18:30,447 Look at anybody there and they all look like... 359 00:18:30,708 --> 00:18:34,701 I mean, her hair's up, but still, if she went out on the street... 360 00:18:35,046 --> 00:18:36,718 ...between shots, nobody would stare at her. 361 00:18:36,964 --> 00:18:38,795 I would say hats, hair and teeth. 362 00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:42,247 The quality of dentistry was probably... 363 00:18:42,553 --> 00:18:46,102 I don't think the white teeth were quite as gleaming... 364 00:18:46,431 --> 00:18:48,228 ...as Hollywood actors have. 365 00:18:48,475 --> 00:18:52,263 This is, of course, the one scene where, I think, racial issues... 366 00:18:52,605 --> 00:18:55,403 ...are brought forward in the most obvious way. 367 00:18:55,691 --> 00:18:57,329 And glancingly. 368 00:18:57,568 --> 00:19:00,685 Well, I mean, for the most part, this is it. It's here. 369 00:19:00,988 --> 00:19:04,503 We have some idea African-Americans were not seen as equals... 370 00:19:04,825 --> 00:19:07,214 ...or that there were some segregation and discrimination... 371 00:19:07,495 --> 00:19:08,814 ...in place in the West... 372 00:19:09,038 --> 00:19:10,869 ...and then that theme also falls away. 373 00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:18,255 And, frankly, in a place like territorial New Mexico or Arizona... 374 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:21,463 ...during this period, this scene could go either way. 375 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:24,029 I mean, he could've been served because, "Who cares"... 376 00:19:24,302 --> 00:19:25,894 ...or maybe he wouldn't have been served. 377 00:19:26,137 --> 00:19:29,891 It would be absolutely dependent upon the background... 378 00:19:30,224 --> 00:19:32,180 ...of the bartender, of the proprietor. 379 00:19:32,478 --> 00:19:35,197 There would've been no laws, you know, no segregation laws. 380 00:19:35,522 --> 00:19:37,956 But in a town that is otherwise this white... 381 00:19:38,232 --> 00:19:39,551 ...it might have been problematic. 382 00:19:39,776 --> 00:19:40,845 Well, he would stand out. 383 00:19:41,069 --> 00:19:43,378 And the fact that he's now kicking their butt all over... 384 00:19:43,654 --> 00:19:46,214 ...it probably wouldn't help him with the local constable either. 385 00:19:46,491 --> 00:19:48,925 He would probably have some explaining to do. 386 00:19:49,202 --> 00:19:51,636 Now, you mentioned before that the hats and hair... 387 00:19:51,913 --> 00:19:54,632 - And here's the law. Look at that. - With a great opening line. 388 00:19:54,999 --> 00:19:58,708 What's all this then? 389 00:20:00,171 --> 00:20:03,561 This nigger's breaking up my place, Sheriff Langston. 390 00:20:04,424 --> 00:20:08,576 No, because it's the 1980s. "I don't like that word very much." 391 00:20:08,928 --> 00:20:12,079 Well, he's British, so he has sensibilities. 392 00:20:12,391 --> 00:20:14,302 And this is before A Fish Called Wanda, isn't it? 393 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,471 Yes, it really is. 394 00:20:16,729 --> 00:20:19,243 - But it's after Monty Python. - Yeah. 395 00:20:19,523 --> 00:20:21,673 And this, again, I think, goes to the heart... 396 00:20:21,942 --> 00:20:26,299 ...of Lawrence Kasdan's unique sense of casting in a Western film. 397 00:20:26,655 --> 00:20:31,604 Not that there couldn't have been a British sheriff. There could've been. 398 00:20:31,993 --> 00:20:34,109 But it would be highly unlikely. 399 00:20:37,123 --> 00:20:38,875 But I think he's terrific in the role. 400 00:20:39,125 --> 00:20:40,877 You never buy him as an actual person. 401 00:20:41,127 --> 00:20:43,004 But as a movie character, he's wonderful. 402 00:20:43,254 --> 00:20:46,326 And let me point out that his hat is authentic and correct. 403 00:20:46,632 --> 00:20:48,907 And one of the few really authentic hats we've got in this. 404 00:20:49,177 --> 00:20:51,133 And that's defined because? 405 00:20:51,388 --> 00:20:55,586 It's a sort of bowler from the late 19th century... 406 00:20:55,934 --> 00:20:57,367 ...a perfect sort of Eastern hat. 407 00:20:59,437 --> 00:21:01,029 And very nice. 408 00:21:01,272 --> 00:21:02,591 But even though he's British... 409 00:21:02,815 --> 00:21:05,283 ...he's the law, and he makes up the law as he goes along... 410 00:21:05,568 --> 00:21:08,605 ...and that's a nice Western trait. 411 00:21:09,113 --> 00:21:11,024 What about the costuming, in the sense that... 412 00:21:11,282 --> 00:21:13,193 ...you'd talked about the problems that you had... 413 00:21:13,451 --> 00:21:17,729 ...or the way people, with The Alamo, quibbled with various details. 414 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,119 Oh, let's not get Frank on The Alamo and his Dickens costuming... 415 00:21:22,460 --> 00:21:24,974 ...in that awful movie that he was an integral part of... 416 00:21:25,253 --> 00:21:27,005 ...and should take all responsibility for. 417 00:21:27,255 --> 00:21:28,529 - It's a great movie. - Yes. 418 00:21:28,798 --> 00:21:31,266 And the costuming is terrific. 419 00:21:31,552 --> 00:21:33,190 - The Alamo, that is. - Yeah. 420 00:21:33,429 --> 00:21:35,579 This is, you know... 421 00:21:36,599 --> 00:21:39,671 There are probably elements within these costumes that are correct... 422 00:21:39,977 --> 00:21:42,093 ...and I think it's very haphazard. 423 00:21:42,354 --> 00:21:45,232 I think they dressed the people to look good first... 424 00:21:45,524 --> 00:21:47,640 ...and then to be correct second. 425 00:21:47,901 --> 00:21:50,415 - Which is what they should do. - Sure, absolutely. 426 00:21:50,695 --> 00:21:54,404 Absolutely. And sometimes, in fact, if you think of a film like Tombstone... 427 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:56,571 ...which was very popular and very successful... 428 00:21:56,826 --> 00:22:02,856 ...and is especially popular among the Wild West aficionado class... 429 00:22:03,291 --> 00:22:06,249 ...that film has sort of defined costuming now... 430 00:22:06,544 --> 00:22:09,854 ...as it appears in Westerns. 431 00:22:10,173 --> 00:22:13,370 And there was a level of authenticity to the costumes in Tombstone... 432 00:22:13,677 --> 00:22:16,510 ...but yet they were still very dramatic and very colourful. 433 00:22:16,804 --> 00:22:18,635 And, in fact, I think it's one of the things... 434 00:22:18,889 --> 00:22:21,528 ...that set that film apart from Kasdan's Wyatt Earp. 435 00:22:21,809 --> 00:22:27,759 His costumes were darker, drearier. He used a lot of blacks, browns. 436 00:22:28,190 --> 00:22:30,226 I mean, he didn't, his costume designer did... 437 00:22:30,484 --> 00:22:31,633 ...but he signed off on it. 438 00:22:31,861 --> 00:22:35,820 And thus it lost the colour that was integral to the West. 439 00:22:36,198 --> 00:22:38,314 But that actually raises the biggest question of all... 440 00:22:38,576 --> 00:22:41,693 ...that all filmmakers of Westerns have to confront... 441 00:22:42,037 --> 00:22:43,755 ...how much accuracy matters. 442 00:22:44,038 --> 00:22:45,710 That is to say, it could be more accurate... 443 00:22:45,957 --> 00:22:49,427 ...but does it make it a better movie in any sense, and? 444 00:22:49,753 --> 00:22:53,541 No, in the final analysis, I don't think it matters a bit. 445 00:22:53,882 --> 00:22:59,991 Especially the Western, which is the most malleable of film genres. 446 00:23:00,430 --> 00:23:04,469 I mean, you look at, say, My Pal Trigger with Roy Rogers... 447 00:23:04,810 --> 00:23:06,801 ...or The Great Train Robbery from 1903... 448 00:23:07,104 --> 00:23:08,617 ...or Once Upon a Time in the West... 449 00:23:08,854 --> 00:23:11,846 ...you wouldn't even put those things in the same style in most ways... 450 00:23:12,149 --> 00:23:14,788 ...and yet they're all Westerns. 451 00:23:15,069 --> 00:23:20,939 And you look at the Gene Autry things, with his rhinestone cowboy outfits... 452 00:23:21,367 --> 00:23:26,202 ...and there's always this incredible range of expression... 453 00:23:26,580 --> 00:23:30,653 ...and costume and the way people re-create this period. 454 00:23:31,002 --> 00:23:32,515 Range of expression and costume... 455 00:23:32,754 --> 00:23:35,393 But here, not to get myself in trouble with one of my employers... 456 00:23:35,673 --> 00:23:38,028 ...but the beauty about a Gene Autry movie... 457 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:41,053 ...is if you've seen one, you have seen them all. 458 00:23:41,387 --> 00:23:44,459 True enough, and that's probably why people loved him so much. 459 00:23:47,226 --> 00:23:50,138 Now, you know, when I first saw this in original release... 460 00:23:50,437 --> 00:23:53,076 ...this is the first time I'd ever seen Kevin Costner in anything... 461 00:23:53,357 --> 00:23:58,226 ...and so I was very surprised at the way his career went after this... 462 00:23:58,612 --> 00:24:03,128 ...because he's got this loosey-goosey attitude in this film... 463 00:24:03,491 --> 00:24:06,767 ...and he's just so much fun and just so lively... 464 00:24:07,078 --> 00:24:10,957 ...and he becomes much more of a Gary Cooper type after this. 465 00:24:11,291 --> 00:24:13,282 I mean, much more succinct and... 466 00:24:13,544 --> 00:24:15,341 Sour and stiff is what some people have said... 467 00:24:15,587 --> 00:24:17,384 ...but I think Gary Cooper-like is a better... 468 00:24:17,631 --> 00:24:20,145 See, I'm the more politic of the two of us, Paul. 469 00:24:20,425 --> 00:24:24,213 No, no, I think he is more dour, though... 470 00:24:24,554 --> 00:24:25,907 ...and such a serious character. 471 00:24:26,139 --> 00:24:28,289 And especially if you watch a film like Wyatt Earp... 472 00:24:28,557 --> 00:24:31,469 ...it's hard to believe it's the same actor. 473 00:24:31,769 --> 00:24:33,361 And this film actually proves he can act. 474 00:24:33,604 --> 00:24:36,357 I mean, that's what they always said, John Wayne just played himself. 475 00:24:36,649 --> 00:24:38,958 No, for heaven's sake, he was a very fine actor. 476 00:24:39,235 --> 00:24:40,429 And Costner is too. 477 00:24:40,653 --> 00:24:42,644 And he's playing a completely different role here... 478 00:24:42,905 --> 00:24:44,384 ...than we see in his later films. 479 00:24:44,615 --> 00:24:46,287 Of course, later he becomes such a big star. 480 00:24:46,533 --> 00:24:49,525 Maybe he wasn't wiling to deviate from that persona... 481 00:24:49,829 --> 00:24:51,262 ...that was working so well for him. 482 00:24:51,539 --> 00:24:54,736 Well, Kevin has agreed to become our membership spokesperson... 483 00:24:55,042 --> 00:24:57,875 ...for the Autry National Center, so we are in his debt. 484 00:24:58,212 --> 00:25:00,965 So no more "dour and stiff" comments. I see. I'm sorry, gentlemen. 485 00:25:01,256 --> 00:25:03,486 What I will say, he was actually our honouree last year... 486 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:05,351 ...as our Western Heritage Award winner... 487 00:25:05,594 --> 00:25:08,108 ...and one of the things he said in this speech he gave... 488 00:25:08,388 --> 00:25:10,424 I mean, he really has remained... 489 00:25:10,682 --> 00:25:12,513 He is first and foremost a fan of the Western... 490 00:25:12,768 --> 00:25:16,681 ...and has dedicated himself to it... 491 00:25:17,022 --> 00:25:19,934 ...in ways that many of the people who have backed him... 492 00:25:20,234 --> 00:25:22,350 ...or have sort of "agented" him and the like... 493 00:25:22,610 --> 00:25:25,204 ...have not always suggested that it was in his career interest... 494 00:25:25,488 --> 00:25:27,444 ...to do the films that he has done. 495 00:25:27,699 --> 00:25:31,009 Starting with Dances With Wolves, but even with Open Range... 496 00:25:31,328 --> 00:25:34,320 ...I think that was not the movie that I think many of his backers... 497 00:25:34,623 --> 00:25:35,976 ...would've liked him to be making. 498 00:25:36,249 --> 00:25:37,887 That's a wonderful film too, by the way... 499 00:25:38,126 --> 00:25:41,038 ...and one that really plays very strongly, like this film... 500 00:25:41,338 --> 00:25:43,294 ...off the conventions of the Western. 501 00:25:43,548 --> 00:25:48,747 Populated with more traditional characters, I think, than this film is. 502 00:25:49,178 --> 00:25:50,577 I'm talking about Open Range. 503 00:25:50,804 --> 00:25:52,317 But very, very well done... 504 00:25:52,556 --> 00:25:56,549 ...and with one of the great gunfights ever filmed. 505 00:25:56,894 --> 00:26:00,967 Yeah, it speaks very well of Costner, that he's, along with Eastwood... 506 00:26:01,315 --> 00:26:04,193 ...really struggled, and Tom Selleck, as well... 507 00:26:04,485 --> 00:26:07,045 ...to keep the Western alive. 508 00:26:07,322 --> 00:26:11,156 And if you didn't have these strong actors with a powerful following... 509 00:26:11,493 --> 00:26:13,643 ...who cared about the Western, it really would be gone. 510 00:26:16,705 --> 00:26:22,541 - I can't show up without him. - Then this is where we part ways. 511 00:26:23,337 --> 00:26:26,170 You hate to see guys having to part ways this early in their... 512 00:26:26,465 --> 00:26:29,218 As close to each other as these fellas. 513 00:26:29,551 --> 00:26:31,746 Luckily, they're not gonna part ways for very long. 514 00:26:32,012 --> 00:26:35,766 They're not quite as laconic as some Western heroes, though. 515 00:26:36,141 --> 00:26:38,575 They actually manage to say something in their parting here... 516 00:26:38,852 --> 00:26:40,922 ...as opposed to simply the... 517 00:26:41,187 --> 00:26:43,940 Well, these are 1980s guys, so they're in touch with their feelings. 518 00:26:44,231 --> 00:26:49,180 Much more so than, say, Pike Bishop... 519 00:26:49,571 --> 00:26:51,243 They parted, now they're going to the bar... 520 00:26:51,489 --> 00:26:54,003 ...so so much for that whole conversation. 521 00:26:55,035 --> 00:26:56,991 Isn't it interesting, you go in any Western town... 522 00:26:57,245 --> 00:26:58,724 ...there's no one on the streets... 523 00:26:58,955 --> 00:27:00,866 ...you go in the bar, and it's absolutely packed. 524 00:27:01,124 --> 00:27:03,718 Everybody's in there, everybody's ready for action. 525 00:27:04,711 --> 00:27:06,827 I always love that they have these tiny little towns... 526 00:27:07,087 --> 00:27:10,921 ...with these gargantuan saloons that are as big as a shopping mall. 527 00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:12,619 And, you know, they actually did. 528 00:27:12,843 --> 00:27:15,198 I mean, the West, you go, you look at these little towns... 529 00:27:15,471 --> 00:27:19,623 ...especially the mining towns, and there'll be one general store... 530 00:27:19,975 --> 00:27:22,489 ...there'll be one bank, and there'll be 16 saloons. 531 00:27:25,022 --> 00:27:30,813 But keep in mind, no television, no movies... 532 00:27:31,237 --> 00:27:34,593 ...you only had cards and liquor to keep you going. 533 00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,737 You're wearing my hat. 534 00:27:40,037 --> 00:27:42,505 What else have you got that's mine? 535 00:27:42,789 --> 00:27:47,021 I wouldn't argue for that hat back, frankly, myself, but... 536 00:27:47,377 --> 00:27:49,049 But, you know, this sort of... 537 00:27:49,337 --> 00:27:51,567 This hat business is famous in Westerns... 538 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,114 ...and there's a long tradition... 539 00:27:53,341 --> 00:27:56,413 Truly, there's a long tradition of people messing with other people's hats... 540 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,759 ...and that leads to dead men in the streets pretty regularly. 541 00:28:01,140 --> 00:28:03,370 And, of course, though, this is one of the points... 542 00:28:03,642 --> 00:28:09,877 ...that Western historians have tried to work over. 543 00:28:10,317 --> 00:28:13,434 Where violence really took place in the West... 544 00:28:13,737 --> 00:28:17,207 ...how common these kind of saloon-fight gunfights were... 545 00:28:17,532 --> 00:28:18,760 ...as opposed to brawls. 546 00:28:18,992 --> 00:28:22,109 I think people agree that there was lots of brawling... 547 00:28:22,412 --> 00:28:27,611 ...but how many people got blown away was much less common. 548 00:28:28,041 --> 00:28:30,635 Well, Paul can speak to this better than I can, of course... 549 00:28:30,919 --> 00:28:34,753 ...but the famous O.K. Corral fight... 550 00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:37,524 What, a couple of guys dead, a couple of guys wounded... 551 00:28:37,801 --> 00:28:39,473 ...and yet it's lived throughout history... 552 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,073 ...as one of the great gun battles. 553 00:28:41,305 --> 00:28:43,500 That's gotta tell you what the body count... 554 00:28:43,765 --> 00:28:46,484 Like, in the end of this movie, not to give anything away... 555 00:28:46,769 --> 00:28:50,523 ...to those listening to us instead of actually watching the movie... 556 00:28:50,857 --> 00:28:54,566 ...but there's gotta be 50 guys dead in the last gun battle. 557 00:28:54,901 --> 00:28:57,779 If they're listening to us and they haven't watched this movie already... 558 00:28:58,071 --> 00:29:02,826 ...I think we need to get them to a psychiatrist right away, but... 559 00:29:04,411 --> 00:29:07,687 But, see, that would be a bloodbath that would live forever. 560 00:29:07,998 --> 00:29:10,990 Having done a television documentary for Investigating History... 561 00:29:11,293 --> 00:29:14,251 ...on the gunfight at the O.K. Corral... 562 00:29:14,546 --> 00:29:17,538 Of course, it's such a classic moment of American law enforcement. 563 00:29:17,882 --> 00:29:20,271 That's why it has remained so famous. 564 00:29:20,551 --> 00:29:22,621 But I differ with a lot of my academic colleagues. 565 00:29:22,886 --> 00:29:27,198 In fact, I was interviewing Stewart Udall for one of these documentaries... 566 00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:29,709 ...and he and I have disagreed for years... 567 00:29:29,978 --> 00:29:31,775 ...over the level of violence in the West. 568 00:29:32,021 --> 00:29:36,651 And I have many friends who spend their whole careers trying to prove... 569 00:29:37,026 --> 00:29:38,982 ...that the West wasn't violent. 570 00:29:39,237 --> 00:29:41,068 Of course, the kind of Western history I do... 571 00:29:41,322 --> 00:29:43,597 ...is a much more romantic kind of Western history... 572 00:29:43,866 --> 00:29:46,903 ...and much more traditional than a lot of the new Western history. 573 00:29:47,202 --> 00:29:53,198 But to me, the West is just one great, sweltering pit of violence. 574 00:29:53,625 --> 00:29:55,900 And it's just violence built on violence. 575 00:29:56,169 --> 00:29:58,888 This may be because I've just yesterday finished a script... 576 00:29:59,172 --> 00:30:01,402 ...on the Mountain Meadows Massacre of 1857... 577 00:30:01,675 --> 00:30:05,065 ...and I'm pretty convinced that the West is a horribly violent place. 578 00:30:05,388 --> 00:30:08,266 I don't think that's the issue. I don't think you're in disagreement. 579 00:30:08,558 --> 00:30:10,355 I think the historians, and most prominently... 580 00:30:10,601 --> 00:30:13,479 ...let's say Richard Maxwell Brown... 581 00:30:13,770 --> 00:30:16,238 ...I don't think they disagree that the West... 582 00:30:16,523 --> 00:30:18,002 ...was an exceptionally violent place. 583 00:30:18,233 --> 00:30:21,145 I think they would argue that the violence was not of the kind... 584 00:30:21,444 --> 00:30:24,242 ...that Western movies mythologize... 585 00:30:24,531 --> 00:30:29,366 ...that it was less a case of individual gunfighter violence... 586 00:30:29,744 --> 00:30:31,814 ...on the streets of a dusty Western town... 587 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,550 ...or the final scene in this movie, as I recall... 588 00:30:35,875 --> 00:30:39,345 ...as it was, you know, patterns of collective violence: 589 00:30:39,670 --> 00:30:41,820 Ethnic groups, labour violence... 590 00:30:42,089 --> 00:30:43,920 ...social violence of one kind or another... 591 00:30:44,174 --> 00:30:46,927 ...wars against Indians, discriminations and riots... 592 00:30:47,220 --> 00:30:49,290 ...or violence against Chinese. 593 00:30:49,555 --> 00:30:51,671 That kind of violence was certainly pervasive. 594 00:30:51,974 --> 00:30:55,205 The gunfighter duels that are the staple of Western movies... 595 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,796 ...were less common than... And that's part of the reason... 596 00:30:59,107 --> 00:31:00,699 But then, I guess, the question becomes... 597 00:31:00,942 --> 00:31:02,694 ...not how common or less common they were... 598 00:31:02,944 --> 00:31:05,583 ...but why people are so fascinated by the O.K. Corral... 599 00:31:05,862 --> 00:31:08,330 ...if it was a relatively minor incident. 600 00:31:08,615 --> 00:31:10,253 Or if it was more significant... 601 00:31:10,492 --> 00:31:13,484 ...in what ways was it significant of the larger patterns? 602 00:31:13,787 --> 00:31:15,459 And there, the argument has always been... 603 00:31:15,705 --> 00:31:17,616 ...or at least some historians have argued... 604 00:31:17,874 --> 00:31:20,104 ...that what happened at the O.K. Corral was emblematic... 605 00:31:20,377 --> 00:31:24,575 ...of larger post-Civil War conflicts... 606 00:31:24,924 --> 00:31:28,041 ...of what Richard Maxwell Brown calls Civil War of Incorporation. 607 00:31:28,386 --> 00:31:29,785 We actually just... Here's a plug. 608 00:31:30,054 --> 00:31:33,012 We did a program at the Autry last June... 609 00:31:33,306 --> 00:31:36,503 ...with Richard Maxwell Brown, David Milch from Deadwood... 610 00:31:36,810 --> 00:31:38,084 ...Chuck Michel... 611 00:31:38,311 --> 00:31:41,303 ...the chief attorney for the National Rifle Association in California... 612 00:31:41,606 --> 00:31:43,046 ...and Mike Barnes, who's the head of the Brady Campaign... 613 00:31:43,107 --> 00:31:44,096 ...and Mike Barnes, who's the head of the Brady Campaign... 614 00:31:44,317 --> 00:31:45,670 ...for the control of handguns... 615 00:31:45,902 --> 00:31:49,497 ...and we asked them to talk about how violence in the historical West... 616 00:31:49,822 --> 00:31:52,461 ...and the myths of violence in the historical West... 617 00:31:52,742 --> 00:31:55,131 ...have informed and misinformed, have shaped and misshaped... 618 00:31:55,411 --> 00:31:57,163 ...contemporary understandings and debates... 619 00:31:57,412 --> 00:31:59,801 ...about gun control in the United States. 620 00:32:00,082 --> 00:32:02,676 This is why there will never be gun control in the United States... 621 00:32:02,959 --> 00:32:05,109 ...because of the way Costner's twirling those pistols. 622 00:32:05,421 --> 00:32:10,256 It's just, these movies absolutely glorify guns and violence, of course... 623 00:32:10,635 --> 00:32:13,308 ...and how any young person could go and see a movie like this... 624 00:32:13,596 --> 00:32:16,156 ...and then not kind of swagger out onto the street... 625 00:32:16,432 --> 00:32:19,469 ...and think, "Wow, that is so cool," you know, I mean, that's... 626 00:32:19,769 --> 00:32:22,886 Now, I'm not blaming Westerns for the level of violence in America. 627 00:32:23,230 --> 00:32:25,061 But that is a common... Actually, that is a... 628 00:32:25,315 --> 00:32:28,307 You know, that is one line that's always trotted out, that Westerns... 629 00:32:28,610 --> 00:32:30,965 That we had a particularly violent Western past... 630 00:32:31,237 --> 00:32:34,195 ...and that is responsible for the violence today. 631 00:32:34,532 --> 00:32:37,000 We did have a very violent Western past... 632 00:32:37,285 --> 00:32:39,321 ...and we had a very violent past period... 633 00:32:39,579 --> 00:32:41,888 ...and that is why we're still a violent people today... 634 00:32:42,165 --> 00:32:43,723 ...and it's been interesting to me... 635 00:32:43,959 --> 00:32:46,473 In fact, Steve, with the whole debate over Western violence... 636 00:32:46,754 --> 00:32:49,029 I mean, it's part of an effort, I think... 637 00:32:49,298 --> 00:32:53,576 ...to pretend that violence never occurred... 638 00:32:53,927 --> 00:32:57,761 ...because maybe somehow that'll stop the violence that we live with today. 639 00:32:58,097 --> 00:33:02,170 And while that, it seems to me, is laudable in its sentiment... 640 00:33:02,518 --> 00:33:06,989 ...it is incorrect in its confrontation with reality. 641 00:33:07,356 --> 00:33:09,824 It seems to me that if we understood better... 642 00:33:10,109 --> 00:33:13,579 ...just why human beings are the way they are... 643 00:33:13,905 --> 00:33:18,376 ...and then why we glorify violence like we're doing right here... 644 00:33:18,742 --> 00:33:20,573 ...it would help us today. 645 00:33:20,827 --> 00:33:23,466 I think we live in a far more violent time today... 646 00:33:23,748 --> 00:33:25,500 ...than the time of the Wild West. 647 00:33:25,750 --> 00:33:27,900 In fact, I've always appreciated the Western, in fact... 648 00:33:28,169 --> 00:33:30,603 ...and the violence in Westerns because it seemed, to me... 649 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,429 ...it was in that Neverland place that was kind of safe. 650 00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,434 And cop shows and CSI shows... 651 00:33:39,930 --> 00:33:42,444 ...and what we see every day on our television news today... 652 00:33:42,724 --> 00:33:44,555 ...is unfortunately very, very real. 653 00:33:44,809 --> 00:33:46,447 We can only hope that the bad guys today... 654 00:33:46,686 --> 00:33:49,723 ...are as bad of shots as these guys are in the movies. 655 00:33:50,023 --> 00:33:53,493 Who take complete aim at our protagonist... 656 00:33:53,818 --> 00:33:56,332 ...and still manage to miss them every single time. 657 00:33:56,613 --> 00:33:58,922 This scene is out of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. 658 00:33:59,198 --> 00:34:01,428 And I don't say that pejoratively. I mean, that's nice. 659 00:34:01,701 --> 00:34:04,420 I mean, he's really using his material. 660 00:34:04,705 --> 00:34:07,094 Now they're out of the snow, they've ridden out of the snow... 661 00:34:07,416 --> 00:34:09,884 ...and now we're down in the desert... 662 00:34:10,460 --> 00:34:12,610 ...because New Mexico provides every possible... 663 00:34:12,879 --> 00:34:15,313 Are you on the payroll of the New Mexico Chamber of Commerce? 664 00:34:15,590 --> 00:34:18,502 I am working with the New Mexico Film Commission, yes, indeed. 665 00:34:18,801 --> 00:34:20,075 And proud of it. 666 00:34:20,303 --> 00:34:24,376 Our governor, Bill Richardson, who is on television even more than I am... 667 00:34:24,724 --> 00:34:27,557 ...believes very strongly in bringing filmmaking to New Mexico. 668 00:34:27,852 --> 00:34:29,126 You're out-plugging me. 669 00:34:29,353 --> 00:34:30,911 Your shameless plugs for New Mexico... 670 00:34:31,147 --> 00:34:33,138 ...are outdoing mine for the Autry National Center. 671 00:34:33,399 --> 00:34:34,627 I'm trying to do the best I can. 672 00:34:34,859 --> 00:34:36,178 We gotta get these in quick... 673 00:34:36,401 --> 00:34:39,279 ...before Frank starts going on about his 16 books that are out. 674 00:34:39,571 --> 00:34:41,482 Look at that. That's a great shot, actually, see. 675 00:34:41,740 --> 00:34:44,413 The DVD of that June program that I talked about... 676 00:34:44,702 --> 00:34:47,535 ...with Milch, Richard Maxwell Brown... 677 00:34:47,830 --> 00:34:50,708 ...Warren Olney moderated... 678 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,072 ...and Mike Barnes and Chuck Michel, is available... 679 00:34:54,378 --> 00:34:58,929 ...and to Autry National Center members, so become a member. 680 00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:01,734 Very nice, that's very nice. You had a lot of big names there. 681 00:35:02,010 --> 00:35:03,602 You never invite me to the Autry office. 682 00:35:03,845 --> 00:35:06,154 Paul, we would real... We would be honoured by your presence. 683 00:35:06,431 --> 00:35:07,864 Ever been invited to the Autry, Frank? 684 00:35:08,099 --> 00:35:09,976 I've never been invited pretty much anywhere. 685 00:35:10,226 --> 00:35:11,739 I see. And there's a reason for that. 686 00:35:11,978 --> 00:35:12,458 I actually did a huge exhibit on General Custer at the Autry... 687 00:35:12,478 --> 00:35:15,072 I actually did a huge exhibit on General Custer at the Autry... 688 00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:16,709 - Exactly, Paul. ...a few years ago. 689 00:35:16,941 --> 00:35:18,010 We are honoured when Paul... 690 00:35:18,234 --> 00:35:21,112 I love the Autry, I love everything about it. 691 00:35:21,780 --> 00:35:24,533 And it is indeed one of the great institutions. 692 00:35:24,825 --> 00:35:28,534 The Autry, the Buffalo Bill National Cowboy Hall. 693 00:35:28,870 --> 00:35:31,259 All are just wonderful representations of the West. 694 00:35:31,539 --> 00:35:33,530 - Good shooting right there. - He lost his great hat. 695 00:35:33,791 --> 00:35:35,782 Yeah, the only authentic prop in the movie. 696 00:35:39,213 --> 00:35:42,250 This is, by the way, exactly the same place, I think... 697 00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:45,781 ...where they shot the big climax in Wyatt Earp... 698 00:35:46,095 --> 00:35:49,883 ...where Wyatt Earp, Kevin Costner, kills the Curly Bill Brocius character... 699 00:35:50,224 --> 00:35:52,135 ...at the end of that film. 700 00:35:52,393 --> 00:35:54,907 And where is this set? How close to Santa Fe? 701 00:35:55,186 --> 00:35:57,905 Oh, not far at all. It's Tent Rocks. It's not very far at all. 702 00:35:58,231 --> 00:36:00,108 Although now they've gone to a different area... 703 00:36:00,358 --> 00:36:02,030 ...where they're shooting this little scene. 704 00:36:02,278 --> 00:36:04,872 It's the magic of movies. You move around. 705 00:36:08,784 --> 00:36:10,900 We were talking about the problems of authenticity... 706 00:36:11,161 --> 00:36:13,994 ...on this series I'm doing, Investigating History. 707 00:36:14,289 --> 00:36:15,404 We're doing documentaries... 708 00:36:15,624 --> 00:36:18,696 ...and obviously we're really rigid in trying to be historically accurate... 709 00:36:19,002 --> 00:36:23,712 ...but, of course, it's very difficult, and just time and money makes it... 710 00:36:24,090 --> 00:36:26,558 - Great shot there, by the way. - Yeah, the four horsemen there. 711 00:36:26,843 --> 00:36:29,198 Yeah, that's pretty fabulous. 712 00:36:29,595 --> 00:36:32,632 Bad hat, though, but otherwise wonderful. 713 00:36:32,932 --> 00:36:35,321 But anyway, you know, you always have to make compromises... 714 00:36:35,643 --> 00:36:37,873 ...it's just impossible... 715 00:36:38,145 --> 00:36:39,783 What I love about a scene like this... 716 00:36:40,022 --> 00:36:42,013 ...is just how much it luxuriates in the Western. 717 00:36:42,275 --> 00:36:43,947 - He's just... - He's just... He's tearing up. 718 00:36:44,194 --> 00:36:46,754 You can just see Kasdan behind the camera, tears in his eyes. 719 00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:49,305 - Or watching dailies, just going nuts. - And who wouldn't? 720 00:36:49,573 --> 00:36:51,291 "I'm so good, I can hardly stand myself." 721 00:36:51,575 --> 00:36:55,124 Well, when I was doing the gunfight at the O.K. Corral setups... 722 00:36:55,454 --> 00:36:57,251 ...for our Investigating History show... 723 00:36:57,498 --> 00:36:58,772 We shot it in Old Tucson... 724 00:36:58,999 --> 00:37:00,955 ...right where Burt Lancaster and Kirk Douglas... 725 00:37:01,210 --> 00:37:02,723 ...had done Gunfight at the O.K. Corral. 726 00:37:02,962 --> 00:37:04,315 I gotta tell you, I was misty-eyed. 727 00:37:04,547 --> 00:37:06,219 I just thought this was so incredibly cool. 728 00:37:06,465 --> 00:37:08,421 There's a great reveal for Silverado. 729 00:37:08,676 --> 00:37:13,625 There it is, yeah. Although that's not really at all where the real town is. 730 00:37:14,013 --> 00:37:15,844 The wagon train. See, movie's got everything. 731 00:37:16,099 --> 00:37:18,693 It's got the town, it's got the wagon train. 732 00:37:19,352 --> 00:37:22,469 But no women, no Mexicans, no Indians. 733 00:37:23,273 --> 00:37:26,788 Picky, picky, picky. See, that's the... 734 00:37:27,111 --> 00:37:29,386 This is the Old Western history. Suddenly it came to me. 735 00:37:29,655 --> 00:37:34,092 Steve and I, of course, engage in this great academic debate... 736 00:37:34,451 --> 00:37:36,442 ...that academics spend all their time doing over... 737 00:37:36,703 --> 00:37:38,933 ...the new Western history and the Old Western history... 738 00:37:39,206 --> 00:37:41,276 ...and what the West means to America... 739 00:37:41,540 --> 00:37:45,579 This film, I think, is absolutely the Old Western history... 740 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,876 ...but with a little touch of the new. - Made new. 741 00:37:48,130 --> 00:37:49,768 - The Old Western history made new... - Yeah. 742 00:37:50,007 --> 00:37:51,918 ...as opposed to the new Western history set old. 743 00:37:52,218 --> 00:37:53,810 Set old, right. Which is what Deadwood is. 744 00:37:54,053 --> 00:37:55,372 - Absolutely. - Deadwood is indeed. 745 00:37:55,596 --> 00:37:56,915 Look, now he's got a different... 746 00:37:57,139 --> 00:37:59,573 He's going for that ethnic costume, though. Look at that. 747 00:38:02,145 --> 00:38:03,498 Scared children. 748 00:38:03,730 --> 00:38:07,086 This means the guys are gonna have to do something. 749 00:38:10,861 --> 00:38:13,659 It's not quite as bold, by this time, to have a black hero in a film... 750 00:38:13,948 --> 00:38:17,827 ...as it would've been even 15 years before this... 751 00:38:18,494 --> 00:38:23,614 ...but it's sort of interesting how mainstream he is, as one of them. 752 00:38:24,124 --> 00:38:26,843 Of course, this film really hearkens back to The Magnificent Seven. 753 00:38:27,169 --> 00:38:29,922 I think that... 754 00:38:30,214 --> 00:38:32,250 ...it's clear in this scene. 755 00:38:32,549 --> 00:38:34,540 Except you can tell how much times have changed... 756 00:38:34,801 --> 00:38:38,111 ...because in 1960, they'll kill off most of the seven... 757 00:38:38,429 --> 00:38:41,023 ...but by this time, they won't kill off the protagonist. 758 00:38:41,308 --> 00:38:45,904 It's... We've grown into a happy-ending, sort of movie-watching public. 759 00:38:46,271 --> 00:38:48,785 - Well, either that or... - It was already happening here. 760 00:38:49,066 --> 00:38:52,615 Since Kasdan wrote Return of the Jedi and Empire Strik es Back... 761 00:38:52,944 --> 00:38:56,573 ...if I'm not mistaken, a sequel-ready studio system. 762 00:38:56,907 --> 00:39:00,820 That is to say, they didn't make one, but they left it possible to do one. 763 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:02,434 In fact, the Costner character... 764 00:39:02,661 --> 00:39:05,255 ...is a character that you could just see coming out in a sequel... 765 00:39:05,539 --> 00:39:07,097 ...if they had decided to do it. 766 00:39:07,374 --> 00:39:09,171 Oh, the last scene in this movie... 767 00:39:09,418 --> 00:39:11,488 ...if it doesn't set up a sequel, then what does it do? 768 00:39:11,795 --> 00:39:13,786 Oh, don't give the last scene away, Frank. 769 00:39:14,048 --> 00:39:16,198 Sorry, folks. 770 00:39:17,551 --> 00:39:20,907 Another, by the way, magnificent New Mexico landscape, which is... 771 00:39:21,222 --> 00:39:24,532 My kids live up in Durango, Colorado... 772 00:39:24,851 --> 00:39:28,241 ...and I actually drive right past those cliffs every weekend... 773 00:39:28,562 --> 00:39:29,915 ...when I go up to pick them up. 774 00:39:30,147 --> 00:39:32,217 I'll be doing it tomorrow. 775 00:39:32,983 --> 00:39:35,053 And, truly, I think every time I drive up there... 776 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,191 ...it's a long drive, but nevertheless I think: 777 00:39:37,446 --> 00:39:39,437 "Wow, look at this landscape. Man." 778 00:39:39,698 --> 00:39:41,609 And I say that to my children, I say: 779 00:39:41,867 --> 00:39:44,939 "Look at this. Aren't you lucky to be living in a place this beautiful?" 780 00:39:45,245 --> 00:39:46,564 And they go, "What?" 781 00:39:46,788 --> 00:39:48,141 It definitely does add something... 782 00:39:48,373 --> 00:39:50,967 ...as opposed to shooting the Western in Griffith Park... 783 00:39:51,251 --> 00:39:53,048 ...or somewhere in the Santa Clarita Valley... 784 00:39:53,294 --> 00:39:56,809 ...up at, well, where Melody Ranch is, up there. 785 00:39:57,131 --> 00:39:57,451 Oh, we're back in the snow. You see that? 786 00:39:57,465 --> 00:39:58,784 Oh, we're back in the snow. You see that? 787 00:39:59,009 --> 00:40:01,318 Once again, multi-climactic. 788 00:40:06,433 --> 00:40:09,470 I'm not sure that's real snow. That may be dress snow, there. 789 00:40:09,770 --> 00:40:11,681 Let's see if there's breath. Well... 790 00:40:11,938 --> 00:40:13,815 And now they're about to institute a plan... 791 00:40:14,065 --> 00:40:16,101 ...that Laurel and Hardy could've come up with... 792 00:40:16,359 --> 00:40:18,668 ...and with just about as much plausibility. 793 00:40:18,944 --> 00:40:20,377 Except not quite as funny. 794 00:40:20,613 --> 00:40:22,285 Have you written a book on Laurel and Hardy? 795 00:40:22,531 --> 00:40:23,520 I never have. 796 00:40:23,741 --> 00:40:26,380 I know you've written one on Lincoln, you've done one on the Alamo... 797 00:40:26,660 --> 00:40:29,174 - I've done five on the Alamo, thank you. - Five on the Alamo. 798 00:40:29,455 --> 00:40:31,923 You've kind of milked that one all the way, haven't you, Frank? 799 00:40:32,207 --> 00:40:33,845 - I've still got a few more in me. - Okay. 800 00:40:34,084 --> 00:40:35,073 So don't let me stop now. 801 00:40:35,294 --> 00:40:39,765 Frank did the novelisation for the current Disney film The Alamo... 802 00:40:40,133 --> 00:40:42,124 ...in which he used me as one of the characters... 803 00:40:42,385 --> 00:40:43,704 ...and I deeply appreciated that. 804 00:40:43,928 --> 00:40:45,520 Never been a character in a novel before. 805 00:40:45,762 --> 00:40:47,354 I get to meet Davy Crockett in the novel. 806 00:40:47,598 --> 00:40:49,111 That was remarkably easy on you too. 807 00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:51,817 Paul is an expert on Davy Crockett, amongst many other subjects. 808 00:40:52,102 --> 00:40:53,581 Thank you, Steve, thank you. 809 00:40:58,942 --> 00:41:00,694 "Shall I kill him?" 810 00:41:00,944 --> 00:41:02,377 That's what I like about bad guys: 811 00:41:02,612 --> 00:41:04,250 They never act on their own initiative. 812 00:41:04,489 --> 00:41:06,002 They're always looking for instructions. 813 00:41:06,241 --> 00:41:07,594 Which is why the hero always lives. 814 00:41:07,826 --> 00:41:10,386 If the bad guy just did what they should do, which is kill him... 815 00:41:10,662 --> 00:41:12,414 There would be no James Bond movies, at least. 816 00:41:12,663 --> 00:41:15,541 I was just about to say, these guys are like a James Bond villain. 817 00:41:15,833 --> 00:41:17,107 - Yeah. - "Well, let's tie him up... 818 00:41:17,334 --> 00:41:20,246 - Yeah. "Let's tie him up here." ...and then aim a laser beam at him." 819 00:41:20,589 --> 00:41:24,218 - lf they'd just shot Scott Glenn... - "Leave the rattlesnake to get him." 820 00:41:24,551 --> 00:41:26,985 - This is a good grizzled character. - Yes, I was just about... 821 00:41:27,262 --> 00:41:31,619 I was about to say that, and so I take back what I said, and he... 822 00:41:31,975 --> 00:41:33,408 And look at his hat, by the way. 823 00:41:33,643 --> 00:41:35,634 - The grizzled characters get good hats. - Yeah. 824 00:41:42,109 --> 00:41:45,146 Now, what had Scott Glenn done before he did this? 825 00:41:45,446 --> 00:41:47,118 Was this a big breakout role for him? 826 00:41:47,364 --> 00:41:49,002 When did The Right Stuff come out? 827 00:41:49,241 --> 00:41:52,916 - Several years earlier than this. - Okay, so he was already established. 828 00:41:53,245 --> 00:41:54,473 He loves Westerns, though. 829 00:41:54,705 --> 00:41:57,856 I just saw him at the Golden Boot, and he was... 830 00:41:58,918 --> 00:42:01,307 Gave a speech and talked about his love of the Western. 831 00:42:01,629 --> 00:42:04,826 In fact, they showed clips from this film at the presentation. 832 00:42:05,132 --> 00:42:07,362 Actually, The Right Stuff might've been around this time. 833 00:42:07,634 --> 00:42:09,386 I think this was all right around this time. 834 00:42:09,636 --> 00:42:12,309 This was a major effort on Kasdan's part to bring the Western back. 835 00:42:12,597 --> 00:42:15,316 I remember, when it came out, how impressed I was he'd do this... 836 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,033 ...because he was really riding high. 837 00:42:17,269 --> 00:42:21,023 And I think it's reflective of his power at that time in Hollywood... 838 00:42:21,356 --> 00:42:23,870 ...but also reflective of his love of the Western... 839 00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:29,747 ...that he sort of, you know, bet the farm on the Western. 840 00:42:32,408 --> 00:42:36,162 Now, we talked before about the accuracy of good guys... 841 00:42:36,495 --> 00:42:39,009 ...and the problematic shooting of bad guys... 842 00:42:39,290 --> 00:42:42,088 ...but what about, actually, the guns and rifles that they're using? 843 00:42:42,377 --> 00:42:44,607 Had a lot of talk about whether the hats were accurate... 844 00:42:44,879 --> 00:42:47,791 ...whether the costumes were accurate, the teeth as white as they appear... 845 00:42:48,091 --> 00:42:50,002 ...what about the actual guns that they're using? 846 00:42:50,260 --> 00:42:53,013 Did they put attention to that here? 847 00:42:53,346 --> 00:42:55,462 Well, I think... I mean, these are period weapons. 848 00:42:55,723 --> 00:42:58,840 I can't tell whether that's a Henry or a Winchester. I can't tell. 849 00:42:59,142 --> 00:43:01,576 I think it is a Henry rifle. They do say that. 850 00:43:01,853 --> 00:43:03,764 So... 851 00:43:04,147 --> 00:43:08,220 I think, usually, they pay a lot more attention to guns... 852 00:43:08,568 --> 00:43:09,762 ...than they do in this film. 853 00:43:09,987 --> 00:43:11,466 To weapons. It's kind of like weapons... 854 00:43:11,697 --> 00:43:13,688 I mean, he really is creating a fantasy world here. 855 00:43:13,949 --> 00:43:19,785 I don't think he's making any pretence that this is a historical Western... 856 00:43:20,206 --> 00:43:24,358 ...although it seems based... You know, based in a historical setting. 857 00:43:24,709 --> 00:43:27,781 Now he's stolen all their horses. That was easy. 858 00:43:29,130 --> 00:43:31,007 - Look, how could he...? - He doesn't shoot, right. 859 00:43:31,258 --> 00:43:33,726 He shot, he just missed. Look, they're tripping over each other. 860 00:43:34,010 --> 00:43:35,682 I see the Laurel and Hardy aspect of this. 861 00:43:35,929 --> 00:43:39,285 - But only bad guys' guns jam. - Right. 862 00:43:39,599 --> 00:43:41,157 And only bad guys run out of bullets. 863 00:43:41,393 --> 00:43:43,702 I mean, you think about it, you've only got six shots. 864 00:43:43,978 --> 00:43:47,129 And, you know, if you fired one of those pistols, let's say, 12 times... 865 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,115 ...your chances of having a jam are just astronomical. 866 00:43:51,443 --> 00:43:53,832 Just going up and up. I mean, they're black-powder weapons. 867 00:43:54,113 --> 00:43:58,026 And it's just going to be a real problem. 868 00:43:58,576 --> 00:44:01,648 And the other thing you never see in any Western, for the most part... 869 00:44:01,955 --> 00:44:04,185 ...is the smoke that comes from black-powder weapons... 870 00:44:04,457 --> 00:44:07,210 ...because if you did, then you wouldn't be able to see the scene. 871 00:44:07,502 --> 00:44:08,537 It's a real problem. 872 00:44:08,753 --> 00:44:10,391 Now, what I like about this guy... 873 00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:14,669 ...the fourth member here, who is from the wagon train... 874 00:44:15,009 --> 00:44:17,569 ...he's the nameless guy, like in a Star Trek episode. 875 00:44:17,844 --> 00:44:21,234 The second he elects to go along with these three guys, he's dead. 876 00:44:21,556 --> 00:44:22,875 You know he's dead... 877 00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:26,172 ...because we don't know what his name is and he's not one of the stars. 878 00:44:26,478 --> 00:44:30,107 And indeed he's got about one minute to live. 879 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,749 You know, it's the role I've always aspired to in Hollywood. 880 00:44:33,068 --> 00:44:34,501 Oh, good shot. 881 00:44:34,736 --> 00:44:36,010 - The first... Look at that. - Yep. 882 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,713 The first shot that actually hit them. 883 00:44:37,949 --> 00:44:40,588 They get him with pistols at that range. Man, you couldn't even... 884 00:44:40,868 --> 00:44:43,746 You could not hit that mountain with a.45 pistol. 885 00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:46,547 But if that guy had aimed at Scott Glenn, he would've missed. 886 00:44:46,831 --> 00:44:48,628 Right. But he got that guy dead in the chest. 887 00:44:48,875 --> 00:44:50,149 Because he was the nameless guy. 888 00:44:50,377 --> 00:44:52,607 You could make that shot with a rifle, not with a pistol. 889 00:44:52,879 --> 00:44:54,232 Nice wagon-train shot, by the way. 890 00:44:54,464 --> 00:44:56,898 You could only get that scenic in New Mexico. 891 00:44:57,801 --> 00:45:00,361 I think some people in other parts of the Front Range are in... 892 00:45:00,637 --> 00:45:03,310 Yeah, and they would be wrong, Steve. They would be wrong. 893 00:45:03,598 --> 00:45:06,396 Not to introduce a technical note into this thing... 894 00:45:06,684 --> 00:45:09,596 ...but I really wish this movie had been shot in Panavision. 895 00:45:09,895 --> 00:45:13,604 It was shot in Super Techniscope, which is like Super 35... 896 00:45:13,941 --> 00:45:20,050 ...which is a kind of variable-shape... 897 00:45:20,490 --> 00:45:21,559 ...screen image. 898 00:45:21,783 --> 00:45:26,777 And it just... It seems like it really needs that wide-screen splendour. 899 00:45:27,163 --> 00:45:30,280 I'm pretty darn impressed by that little... What in the world was that? 900 00:45:30,583 --> 00:45:31,982 I'll tell you, that Frank. 901 00:45:32,210 --> 00:45:34,804 Well, he's written a dozen books or so, just on the Alamo alone. 902 00:45:35,087 --> 00:45:37,123 - And the technic... - I've written 36 books, thank you. 903 00:45:37,380 --> 00:45:39,052 - Thirty-six books. - Yes. 904 00:45:39,299 --> 00:45:40,857 - That's a career. - I'll list them now... 905 00:45:41,092 --> 00:45:42,969 ...and that'll take us to reel four. 906 00:45:43,220 --> 00:45:44,494 Thirty-six books. 907 00:45:44,721 --> 00:45:46,632 Six of them, you've admitted, are the same book... 908 00:45:46,890 --> 00:45:48,687 ...just repackaged, on the Alamo. - Exactly. 909 00:45:48,933 --> 00:45:49,968 Yes. Very good. 910 00:45:50,185 --> 00:45:52,574 Yeah, and 12 of them are volumes of my autobiography, so... 911 00:45:52,854 --> 00:45:54,890 Yeah. I know. 912 00:46:00,029 --> 00:46:04,978 Jeez, Paden! Her old man ain't even cold yet. 913 00:46:09,037 --> 00:46:11,232 This is such a beautifully shot film. 914 00:46:11,497 --> 00:46:13,886 It really cries out for the wide screen, don't you think? 915 00:46:14,167 --> 00:46:17,921 - And it just doesn't have it. - You know, I think they're... 916 00:46:18,296 --> 00:46:20,526 Much like the people who really know the question... 917 00:46:20,798 --> 00:46:23,266 ...of the type of holsters these guys are wearing... 918 00:46:23,551 --> 00:46:27,226 ...I think the audience that understands the nature of the screen frame... 919 00:46:27,555 --> 00:46:29,466 ...is in the same numbers. 920 00:46:29,723 --> 00:46:32,237 That would be one handful out there in movie land. 921 00:46:32,517 --> 00:46:34,951 - lf you're a film buff, you'd care. - You would know, though. 922 00:46:35,229 --> 00:46:37,618 And Frank is not only a film buff, but a film expert. 923 00:46:37,899 --> 00:46:40,493 And here's the wagon train... I mean, this guy's doing everything. 924 00:46:40,776 --> 00:46:42,971 They did the same thing in Wyatt Earp, Costner and cast. 925 00:46:43,237 --> 00:46:45,114 I mean, they're doing the entire Western story... 926 00:46:45,364 --> 00:46:47,002 ...so it's every scene you could possibly do. 927 00:46:47,241 --> 00:46:50,153 Here's, you know, the wagon train crossing the... 928 00:46:50,453 --> 00:46:53,092 Crossing the river, � la Red River. I mean, it's the river crossing. 929 00:46:53,414 --> 00:46:56,133 There's the shot from inside the wagon. That's right out of Red River. 930 00:46:56,416 --> 00:46:58,646 - Right out of How the West Was Won. - Yeah. 931 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,315 How the West Was Won is the movie that attempts to put... 932 00:47:01,588 --> 00:47:04,500 ...every single Western clich� into one movie. 933 00:47:04,799 --> 00:47:06,949 That one stretches out to three and a half hours... 934 00:47:07,218 --> 00:47:10,528 ...whereas this one gets it in in two hours and a bit. 935 00:47:10,847 --> 00:47:12,724 - Costner once said... - That was in Cinerama... 936 00:47:12,974 --> 00:47:15,534 ...and it would bore the audience if we were to talk about that. 937 00:47:15,853 --> 00:47:18,287 Cinerama is another whole problem... 938 00:47:18,564 --> 00:47:21,362 ...and it leaves those awful lines on the screen now when you watch it. 939 00:47:21,649 --> 00:47:23,446 It seemed like a good idea at the time. 940 00:47:23,693 --> 00:47:27,402 Costner said How the West Was Won was his favourite movie as a kid... 941 00:47:27,739 --> 00:47:30,572 ...and I think that's borne out in both this film... 942 00:47:30,867 --> 00:47:32,778 ...which he didn't have that much control over... 943 00:47:33,036 --> 00:47:34,435 ...but, certainly, Wyatt Earp... 944 00:47:34,662 --> 00:47:38,371 ...which does the railroad, the wagon train, the gunfights, the buffalo. 945 00:47:41,169 --> 00:47:43,558 You know, the railroad is the missing element in this movie. 946 00:47:43,838 --> 00:47:45,556 If you're going to have... 947 00:47:45,798 --> 00:47:47,550 ...that one extra thing in a Western movie... 948 00:47:47,799 --> 00:47:49,710 ...usually the railroad can come in in some way... 949 00:47:49,968 --> 00:47:51,401 ...and here there is no railroad yet. 950 00:47:51,636 --> 00:47:54,912 The railroad should be coming into Silverado at some point. 951 00:47:55,224 --> 00:47:56,816 And if it doesn't come into Silverado... 952 00:47:57,059 --> 00:47:58,890 ...then Silverado becomes a ghost town. 953 00:47:59,145 --> 00:48:02,421 The mules on the wagon train are a really nice touch and very authentic. 954 00:48:02,732 --> 00:48:04,723 When we did this Mountain Meadows Massacre show... 955 00:48:04,984 --> 00:48:07,054 ...we had a huge budget meeting and debate... 956 00:48:07,319 --> 00:48:11,517 ...on whether we were gonna do mules, horses or oxen... 957 00:48:11,866 --> 00:48:14,858 ...to be absolutely authentic, you know, since it is the History Channel. 958 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,436 And, of course, how expensive it is to get a yoke of oxen these days... 959 00:48:18,746 --> 00:48:20,464 ...which is something I hadn't known before. 960 00:48:20,707 --> 00:48:22,663 Just how much it costs to get a yoke of oxen... 961 00:48:22,917 --> 00:48:24,316 ...helped us to decide on horses. 962 00:48:24,544 --> 00:48:25,977 - Horses are very nice. - And cheap. 963 00:48:26,212 --> 00:48:28,362 Yeah, nice and cheap. 964 00:48:28,631 --> 00:48:31,065 Although they eat a lot, and you gotta feed them. 965 00:48:31,342 --> 00:48:32,661 I mean, just... 966 00:48:32,885 --> 00:48:34,796 This is actually a big, big production. 967 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,358 Oh, there she is again. A little smile. 968 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,798 You know, you can't even tell she's a gal yet, hardly. 969 00:48:43,354 --> 00:48:46,187 Yeah, this is the beginning of the confusing part of the triangle... 970 00:48:46,482 --> 00:48:47,597 ...if it is a triangle... 971 00:48:47,817 --> 00:48:50,377 ...because she's sort of pairing off with Kevin Kline here. 972 00:48:50,653 --> 00:48:53,213 - Now, is...? - Later on, it'll just go somewhere else. 973 00:48:53,489 --> 00:48:56,845 Could I just comment how odd it is that the wagon train is going off the road... 974 00:48:57,159 --> 00:48:58,672 ...and the two guys are riding on... 975 00:48:58,911 --> 00:49:00,663 Oh, there's two roads. I don't know what l... 976 00:49:00,913 --> 00:49:04,269 The trail has diverged. It shows how little I know. 977 00:49:04,583 --> 00:49:07,017 And see the people walking? This is very authentic, by the way. 978 00:49:07,293 --> 00:49:08,726 Most people who were on wagon trains... 979 00:49:08,962 --> 00:49:10,793 Not most, all people on wagon trains walked... 980 00:49:11,047 --> 00:49:12,958 ...because you didn't wanna wear your stock out. 981 00:49:13,216 --> 00:49:15,411 One often had to dump out things along the way... 982 00:49:15,678 --> 00:49:16,747 ...as the stock wore out. 983 00:49:16,971 --> 00:49:18,882 Along the way. It's how they built Salt Lake City: 984 00:49:19,140 --> 00:49:22,177 By going along the trail, collecting all the stuff the forty-niners had left. 985 00:49:22,476 --> 00:49:24,467 And here's this wonderful movie set they built... 986 00:49:24,728 --> 00:49:26,286 ...not very far from Santa Fe. 987 00:49:26,522 --> 00:49:28,672 Was built especially for this movie... 988 00:49:28,941 --> 00:49:31,535 ...and it's still a major movie set there today. 989 00:49:31,860 --> 00:49:35,296 It's where we shot The Missing recently. 990 00:49:35,613 --> 00:49:37,683 We used it in some of our television documentaries. 991 00:49:37,949 --> 00:49:40,907 Of course, Wyatt Earp was shot here. Lonesome Dove was shot here. 992 00:49:41,202 --> 00:49:43,033 That's a great shot... 993 00:49:43,287 --> 00:49:47,280 ...and that was sort of the view from when I lived in Santa Fe... 994 00:49:47,625 --> 00:49:51,174 ...before I donated that house to my second wife. 995 00:49:51,504 --> 00:49:53,654 That was my view from my window. It was just incredible. 996 00:49:53,924 --> 00:49:54,959 I loved that house. 997 00:49:55,175 --> 00:49:56,893 Yeah, most movie sets have curves in them... 998 00:49:57,135 --> 00:49:59,410 ...so they appear to be infinite around corners. 999 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,831 And speaking of curves, here's Rosanna Arquette, finally. 1000 00:50:03,140 --> 00:50:07,611 But Silverado is almost unique among Western towns in movies... 1001 00:50:07,979 --> 00:50:11,449 ...in that it's just one long, straight street. 1002 00:50:11,774 --> 00:50:13,526 - And clearly, quite a sizable set. - Yeah. 1003 00:50:13,776 --> 00:50:16,973 - It's a big set. - Just even from that last shot, it's... 1004 00:50:17,279 --> 00:50:19,554 Unless they do something very clever with painting... 1005 00:50:19,824 --> 00:50:21,223 No, no, it's all there. 1006 00:50:21,450 --> 00:50:22,803 And it's interesting, in fact... 1007 00:50:23,035 --> 00:50:26,505 ...because fire is so integral to the climax of this film. 1008 00:50:26,830 --> 00:50:29,185 Not very long ago, half that set burned down... 1009 00:50:29,457 --> 00:50:32,608 ...and they lost it. 1010 00:50:33,254 --> 00:50:35,290 And it was a big, big fire out there. 1011 00:50:35,631 --> 00:50:38,748 Because they don't like what I want. 1012 00:50:40,803 --> 00:50:42,077 She's got a nice hat. 1013 00:50:43,639 --> 00:50:45,755 - And good teeth. - I almost misheard you, so... 1014 00:50:54,065 --> 00:50:56,420 She's making an assumption about herself there, I suppose. 1015 00:50:56,692 --> 00:50:57,966 I don't know. Now we're watching. 1016 00:50:58,194 --> 00:50:59,388 Finally, a female appears... 1017 00:50:59,612 --> 00:51:01,887 ...and we're actually watching the film for the first time. 1018 00:51:02,156 --> 00:51:05,751 We're absolutely captivated. So she's working, you see. 1019 00:51:06,077 --> 00:51:07,117 We say, "There she is, there's a pond... 1020 00:51:07,161 --> 00:51:07,991 We say, "There she is, there's a pond... 1021 00:51:08,204 --> 00:51:09,717 ...maybe a bathing scene is coming." 1022 00:51:09,956 --> 00:51:11,674 I thought Paul would at least mention... 1023 00:51:11,916 --> 00:51:14,714 ...that there were some lovely trees there in the New Mexico landscape. 1024 00:51:15,003 --> 00:51:17,153 This is a different... This is a different ranch. 1025 00:51:17,422 --> 00:51:20,619 It's called the Cook Ranch, and it's also very near Santa Fe. 1026 00:51:20,925 --> 00:51:23,519 And this house sits there, and that pond is there. 1027 00:51:23,803 --> 00:51:25,998 We used this for " Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid." 1028 00:51:26,263 --> 00:51:29,380 We've been shooting these television documentaries around Santa Fe... 1029 00:51:29,683 --> 00:51:32,481 ...and so we used all of these sets. 1030 00:51:32,770 --> 00:51:34,726 And there's a Western town set connected with this. 1031 00:51:34,980 --> 00:51:37,335 And part of Cook Ranch, also, was that adobe fort we saw... 1032 00:51:37,608 --> 00:51:38,723 ...at the very beginning. 1033 00:51:38,943 --> 00:51:41,173 And so it's a wonderful set. 1034 00:51:41,445 --> 00:51:44,881 A lady runs this big ranch, and she just rents, you know... 1035 00:51:45,199 --> 00:51:48,157 She's built these movie buildings, she keeps them up, they're wonderful... 1036 00:51:48,451 --> 00:51:54,287 ...and she uses them to supplement her income as a rancher... 1037 00:51:54,708 --> 00:51:58,417 ...because, as you know, it's tough times for ranchers in the West, guys. 1038 00:51:58,754 --> 00:52:01,552 This has a more Georgia O'Keeffe look, though. 1039 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,398 There. 1040 00:52:03,675 --> 00:52:06,109 I'll tell you, I used to... When I drove home... 1041 00:52:06,386 --> 00:52:09,696 ...from the University of New Mexico back up to my house in Santa Fe... 1042 00:52:10,015 --> 00:52:11,130 ...it was 75 miles. 1043 00:52:11,350 --> 00:52:13,420 I'd always time it right around 6, 7:00... 1044 00:52:13,684 --> 00:52:15,914 ...depending on the time of the year, and get that light. 1045 00:52:16,187 --> 00:52:18,098 - That is spectacular. - And it's just spectacular. 1046 00:52:18,356 --> 00:52:21,109 And you understand why artists, and now filmmakers, love New Mexico. 1047 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,868 That's not a plug for New Mexico, that's a statement of fact. 1048 00:52:24,153 --> 00:52:25,666 The light is breathtaking. 1049 00:52:27,740 --> 00:52:29,014 I will not disagree. 1050 00:52:30,326 --> 00:52:32,476 Joe Seneca, he's a great old character actor. 1051 00:52:34,831 --> 00:52:36,423 What else has he been in? 1052 00:52:36,666 --> 00:52:39,339 He goes back all the way to the '30s. 1053 00:52:39,627 --> 00:52:42,061 He was in a lot of those... 1054 00:52:42,338 --> 00:52:44,977 ...all-black-cast films of the '30s and '40s... 1055 00:52:45,257 --> 00:52:47,293 ...and then... 1056 00:52:48,927 --> 00:52:51,316 ...seems to have disappeared from the screen for many years... 1057 00:52:51,597 --> 00:52:53,952 ...and then, in the '70s and '80s, started showing up again. 1058 00:52:56,727 --> 00:52:58,319 Always in minor roles, sadly. 1059 00:53:03,108 --> 00:53:04,541 "Gone to town." That's always a bad... 1060 00:53:04,775 --> 00:53:08,085 In the Western, that's always a bad, bad sign, "Gone to town"... 1061 00:53:08,404 --> 00:53:11,077 ...because we know what town is. There's nothing good in town. 1062 00:53:11,408 --> 00:53:13,876 - And in this case, she's... We're right. - Yeah. 1063 00:53:15,329 --> 00:53:16,603 "Gone to town." 1064 00:53:20,667 --> 00:53:24,740 But, again, I think there's something that David Milch has brought forward... 1065 00:53:25,088 --> 00:53:30,765 ...in a grittier way than other Westerns, in terms of brothel culture in... 1066 00:53:31,177 --> 00:53:33,850 Oh, my goodness, yes. And it's very authentic. 1067 00:53:34,138 --> 00:53:37,096 - Yeah, I know. - Truly. I mean, it really is, and... 1068 00:53:37,391 --> 00:53:39,382 Very well done. Although the power of that show... 1069 00:53:39,643 --> 00:53:41,474 We're not doing commentary on Deadwood... 1070 00:53:41,729 --> 00:53:44,368 ...but the power of that show is the brilliance of the writing. 1071 00:53:44,648 --> 00:53:46,161 - Yeah. - Which really relates to this. 1072 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,119 Kasdan's real strength... I mean, he's getting great scenes here. 1073 00:53:49,403 --> 00:53:54,033 Doesn't miss his shot, but he's just such a brilliant writer and storyteller. 1074 00:53:54,409 --> 00:53:56,240 Although he has a... 1075 00:53:56,494 --> 00:53:58,803 There is a meandering quality to Kasdan's scripts. 1076 00:53:59,079 --> 00:54:00,717 I mean, they... 1077 00:54:00,956 --> 00:54:04,744 He is not constricted by structure, as many screenwriters seem to be. 1078 00:54:05,085 --> 00:54:07,440 - Let's call it leisurely. - Leisurely, yeah. 1079 00:54:07,754 --> 00:54:09,790 But it's relaxing. It's nice. 1080 00:54:10,048 --> 00:54:11,686 Many of the great Westerns, though, are. 1081 00:54:11,925 --> 00:54:13,563 Wouldn't you say, Frank? They really are. 1082 00:54:13,802 --> 00:54:14,996 They're very leisurely films... 1083 00:54:15,220 --> 00:54:17,176 ...they take a while getting where they're going... 1084 00:54:17,431 --> 00:54:20,150 ...then it builds to the big climax. I mean, that's the nature of it. 1085 00:54:20,434 --> 00:54:23,983 And landscape is so vital and so integral to the story... 1086 00:54:24,312 --> 00:54:26,268 ...that you spend a lot of time showing scenics. 1087 00:54:26,522 --> 00:54:28,080 But I think that's one of the things... 1088 00:54:28,316 --> 00:54:31,308 ...that frustrates some with Kevin Costner's Westerns... 1089 00:54:31,611 --> 00:54:33,169 ...that they are long. 1090 00:54:33,405 --> 00:54:35,123 And that in the new Hollywood sensibility... 1091 00:54:35,365 --> 00:54:39,643 ...having a three-hour-plus movie is not okay, commercially. 1092 00:54:39,995 --> 00:54:41,986 It's problematic. And yet Kevin Costner would say: 1093 00:54:42,247 --> 00:54:45,478 "No, to do the story the way that I wanna do it... 1094 00:54:45,792 --> 00:54:49,182 ...you have to sort of let it play out in Western time." 1095 00:54:49,504 --> 00:54:52,064 It's always been a problem with theatre owners, of course... 1096 00:54:52,339 --> 00:54:55,058 ...because the longer a film, the less showings you can get per day... 1097 00:54:55,342 --> 00:54:57,902 ...especially in the evenings, on weekends, during your big time. 1098 00:54:58,178 --> 00:54:59,736 It's sort of interesting now... 1099 00:54:59,972 --> 00:55:04,409 ...with the growth of the medium we're dealing with right here, DVD... 1100 00:55:04,768 --> 00:55:06,645 ...has really changed all the rules. 1101 00:55:06,937 --> 00:55:09,087 Now you can make a film that people are gonna watch... 1102 00:55:09,398 --> 00:55:12,151 ...in a more leisurely setting at home. 1103 00:55:12,444 --> 00:55:18,314 And now that DVDs are responsible for more income than the box office... 1104 00:55:18,740 --> 00:55:22,449 ...for films, which is just astonishing, but nevertheless true... 1105 00:55:22,786 --> 00:55:25,823 ...I think we're gonna... I think it's freed up filmmakers. 1106 00:55:26,123 --> 00:55:28,000 Well, the advent of director's cut... 1107 00:55:28,250 --> 00:55:31,128 ...as well as deleted scenes as packages... 1108 00:55:31,420 --> 00:55:33,297 And this is a movie that I would love to know... 1109 00:55:33,547 --> 00:55:36,220 ...what both a director's cut might look like... 1110 00:55:36,508 --> 00:55:39,022 ...in terms of it stretching out and fleshing out... 1111 00:55:39,302 --> 00:55:42,578 ...some of the themes that are hinted at but not fully fleshed out... 1112 00:55:42,889 --> 00:55:45,847 ...and also what some of the deleted scenes might be... 1113 00:55:46,142 --> 00:55:47,416 ...that they would choose. 1114 00:55:47,643 --> 00:55:49,554 Right. They... 1115 00:55:49,813 --> 00:55:52,122 I'm actually in the DVD that was just released... 1116 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,192 ...of cast in Costner's Wyatt Earp. 1117 00:55:54,442 --> 00:55:56,273 I did a "making of" documentary... 1118 00:55:56,528 --> 00:55:59,486 ...did a talking-head gig for CBS back when the film came out... 1119 00:55:59,781 --> 00:56:01,294 ...and they had that documentary on... 1120 00:56:01,533 --> 00:56:04,172 ...but my wife, who I didn't know at the time... 1121 00:56:04,452 --> 00:56:08,604 ...is in one of the deleted scenes. She's in the wedding scene. 1122 00:56:08,957 --> 00:56:13,587 And so there we are. That's kind of kismet, I suppose. 1123 00:56:13,961 --> 00:56:16,395 - It was meant to be. - It was meant to be. 1124 00:56:16,713 --> 00:56:19,830 It's interesting that as attention spans seem to be getting shorter... 1125 00:56:20,175 --> 00:56:22,769 ...the average film today is substantially longer... 1126 00:56:23,053 --> 00:56:25,169 ...than the average film was, say, 30 years ago. 1127 00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:26,465 That's true, yeah. 1128 00:56:26,682 --> 00:56:28,718 And I'm not quite sure how to account for that. 1129 00:56:28,976 --> 00:56:31,251 And if you go farther back, to the '30s... 1130 00:56:31,521 --> 00:56:34,513 ...it was common for films to be 60 minutes long. 1131 00:56:34,816 --> 00:56:36,966 Now all movies are well over two hours, it seems like. 1132 00:56:37,234 --> 00:56:39,350 It's rare to see anything shorter than that. 1133 00:56:39,611 --> 00:56:41,602 Well, two. I think they tend to be two hours... 1134 00:56:41,863 --> 00:56:44,502 ...then in the teen market, an hour and 50-something minutes, max. 1135 00:56:44,825 --> 00:56:48,738 But I think the old, you know, sort of the Gene Autry Westerns... 1136 00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:51,639 ...that clocked in at 73 minutes or something... 1137 00:56:51,915 --> 00:56:53,712 ...but were shown as double features. 1138 00:56:55,418 --> 00:56:58,569 Or not shown... Just, you know, they're very short. 1139 00:57:01,091 --> 00:57:06,370 The dusters were big after the Italian Westerns. 1140 00:57:06,762 --> 00:57:09,834 The Italian Westerns really made the duster a part. 1141 00:57:10,141 --> 00:57:11,335 And so did Walter Hill. 1142 00:57:11,559 --> 00:57:15,154 You know, in The Long Riders, Walter Hill did a lot for the duster. 1143 00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,835 Are those actually accurate to the period? 1144 00:57:18,108 --> 00:57:21,100 Yes, they... Well, I'm not sure this one he's wearing is... 1145 00:57:21,402 --> 00:57:23,040 ...which is very stylish, very nice. 1146 00:57:23,279 --> 00:57:25,031 Either there or in the J. Peterman catalogue. 1147 00:57:25,281 --> 00:57:27,715 Look at that. That's a saloon worthy of St. Louis, of course... 1148 00:57:27,992 --> 00:57:30,950 ...but nevertheless, here it is in Silverado. 1149 00:57:31,245 --> 00:57:32,883 Sort of smoky, but not too smoky. 1150 00:57:33,121 --> 00:57:34,236 Smoky, but not too smoky. 1151 00:57:34,456 --> 00:57:36,526 Because if was as smoky as it should be... 1152 00:57:36,792 --> 00:57:38,908 ...we wouldn't be able to see anything. 1153 00:57:39,169 --> 00:57:41,364 The second major female character has arrived. 1154 00:57:43,924 --> 00:57:47,041 And the only one who actually has a full personality through... 1155 00:57:47,344 --> 00:57:48,413 That's true. 1156 00:57:48,638 --> 00:57:52,028 And, again, I think they're sort of edgy characterisations that... 1157 00:57:52,391 --> 00:57:55,986 ...Kasdan was doing, in terms of this show. 1158 00:57:56,311 --> 00:57:59,826 Well, the protagonists are all liberal guys, aren't they? You know? 1159 00:58:00,148 --> 00:58:02,946 She had just done The Year of Living Dangerously... 1160 00:58:03,235 --> 00:58:06,272 ...where she had played a Eurasian woman. 1161 00:58:06,571 --> 00:58:10,200 - Eurasian boy. That's the whole point. - God, you're right, boy. That's right. 1162 00:58:10,533 --> 00:58:12,842 She was so brilliant. Yeah, she is such a fine actress. 1163 00:58:14,162 --> 00:58:18,075 Stella, are you the midnight star herself? 1164 00:58:20,835 --> 00:58:25,625 He went to Indiana University when I was there. 1165 00:58:26,006 --> 00:58:27,724 And he was big in the drama school. 1166 00:58:27,966 --> 00:58:30,321 - You didn't teach him, though? - No, no, I was a student. 1167 00:58:30,595 --> 00:58:32,347 - Oh, okay. - I'm very young, Steve. 1168 00:58:32,597 --> 00:58:34,155 I don't know if you knew that. 1169 00:58:34,390 --> 00:58:37,860 He's much older than l... Kline is much older than I am, of course. 1170 00:58:38,186 --> 00:58:40,575 It's just that your distinguished career leads me to think... 1171 00:58:40,855 --> 00:58:43,574 Yeah, you would think. I just started out... I started out young. 1172 00:58:48,111 --> 00:58:50,022 That's a good line. 1173 00:58:54,034 --> 00:58:56,070 A lot of British accents in this Western. 1174 00:58:56,328 --> 00:58:58,922 - But, in fact, in reality... - Lot of British capital in the West. 1175 00:58:59,247 --> 00:59:01,602 There would be a lot of accents in the West. 1176 00:59:01,875 --> 00:59:05,584 You really would be meeting a lot of people with a lot of different accents. 1177 00:59:05,921 --> 00:59:08,833 As I said, a lot of British money maybe made its way into the West. 1178 00:59:09,133 --> 00:59:11,601 I'm not sure how many British accents would've gotten there. 1179 00:59:11,886 --> 00:59:13,080 Wouldn't have gotten there... 1180 00:59:13,304 --> 00:59:17,456 Well, think about Billy the Kid, and the whole story of Billy the Kid... 1181 00:59:17,807 --> 00:59:20,116 ...which we also just did in Investigating History. 1182 00:59:20,393 --> 00:59:20,793 And, actually, the governor has appointed me as the historian... 1183 00:59:20,810 --> 00:59:23,040 And, actually, the governor has appointed me as the historian... 1184 00:59:23,313 --> 00:59:25,668 ...on the project to dig up Billy the Kid... 1185 00:59:25,982 --> 00:59:27,859 ...which has met with considerable resistance... 1186 00:59:28,109 --> 00:59:33,388 ...from citizens of some of the towns in New Mexico, especially Silver City. 1187 00:59:33,781 --> 00:59:35,214 They object because? 1188 00:59:35,450 --> 00:59:37,247 Well, they're afraid that we won't find him. 1189 00:59:37,493 --> 00:59:40,451 My goodness, that'll be a little problem. 1190 00:59:40,747 --> 00:59:43,261 And, of course, one of the central characters in that... 1191 00:59:43,540 --> 00:59:46,771 ...is a British rancher who hires Billy, and he's killed, and so... 1192 00:59:47,085 --> 00:59:49,883 And the men who kill him are all Irish. I mean, they're immigrants. 1193 00:59:50,173 --> 00:59:52,892 Lincoln County, New Mexico, very isolated in the 1870s... 1194 00:59:53,176 --> 00:59:56,293 ...was full of foreign folk. 1195 00:59:56,637 --> 00:59:59,709 But that's what America is, I believe. A nation of immigrants, if I recall. 1196 01:00:00,016 --> 01:00:02,052 And I'm an immigrant myself, so there you go. 1197 01:00:03,978 --> 01:00:05,616 That's a nice... Look, he's got a new hat. 1198 01:00:05,855 --> 01:00:08,005 Isn't that a new hat, that white one? That's nice. 1199 01:00:08,273 --> 01:00:11,071 - But still, very white teeth. - Yeah. 1200 01:00:11,401 --> 01:00:14,711 Well, he's a great villain because he takes such joy in his evil. 1201 01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:17,669 - He is. He's very good. - He's just always in such a good mood. 1202 01:00:17,949 --> 01:00:20,668 Well, he's such a good actor, anyway, too. 1203 01:00:20,952 --> 01:00:23,182 Actually, I think he's a more interesting villain... 1204 01:00:23,455 --> 01:00:24,934 ...than most Westerns have... 1205 01:00:25,165 --> 01:00:28,555 ...because he's not entirely... 1206 01:00:28,878 --> 01:00:32,996 Well, I mean, he's bad, but he's not entirely bad. 1207 01:00:33,340 --> 01:00:34,739 Right, and those are the best. 1208 01:00:34,966 --> 01:00:38,117 You've either gotta be the sort of happy-go-lucky villain like this guy... 1209 01:00:38,428 --> 01:00:41,818 ...or you've just gotta be so evil that you just exude it, and people... 1210 01:00:42,140 --> 01:00:43,653 - The Darth Vader kind of figure. - Right. 1211 01:00:43,892 --> 01:00:45,484 People are just so in awe of your evil. 1212 01:00:50,398 --> 01:00:51,751 This is a great moment. 1213 01:00:55,695 --> 01:00:57,811 That's gonna be trouble. See, the law is corrupt. 1214 01:00:58,072 --> 01:00:59,869 And often in the Western, the law is corrupt. 1215 01:01:00,115 --> 01:01:02,675 And you know what? Often in the West, the law was corrupt. 1216 01:01:02,951 --> 01:01:04,703 It's just so interesting. 1217 01:01:04,953 --> 01:01:08,741 Now we're back at the Tent Rock area... 1218 01:01:09,083 --> 01:01:10,994 ...which is doubling for this guy's homestead. 1219 01:01:16,340 --> 01:01:20,856 And Joe Seneca, very ill-advisedly, puts his gun down... 1220 01:01:21,220 --> 01:01:23,780 ...at a great distance from where he's going out into the open. 1221 01:01:24,056 --> 01:01:25,808 That's another Western shorthand scene... 1222 01:01:26,058 --> 01:01:29,209 ...that you know he's going to be dead soon. 1223 01:01:29,561 --> 01:01:31,472 - No way around it. - And now he's heard something. 1224 01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:33,595 That's bad. 1225 01:01:37,861 --> 01:01:38,896 Nice patch. 1226 01:01:39,112 --> 01:01:42,104 Yeah. Now, that guy is much more in the straight villain line. 1227 01:01:42,407 --> 01:01:44,363 The eye patch. 1228 01:01:48,122 --> 01:01:50,192 Yep. This is gonna be bad. 1229 01:01:55,461 --> 01:02:00,535 Now, what exactly does Danny Glover want to do with his land here? 1230 01:02:00,925 --> 01:02:02,404 Is that ever explained? 1231 01:02:02,635 --> 01:02:04,114 - You know... - He wants to homestead it. 1232 01:02:04,345 --> 01:02:06,779 It's never explained in any Western. I mean, think about Shane. 1233 01:02:07,056 --> 01:02:09,854 They're trying to build a farm. It's clearly... They're at 7000 feet. 1234 01:02:10,143 --> 01:02:12,611 You couldn't grow anything up in the Grand Tetons, you know. 1235 01:02:12,895 --> 01:02:14,294 I mean, it's all sage prairie. 1236 01:02:14,522 --> 01:02:16,478 But nevertheless, they're fighting the ranchers. 1237 01:02:16,732 --> 01:02:18,848 What exactly is this land going to be good for... 1238 01:02:19,110 --> 01:02:20,748 ...other than as ranch land? 1239 01:02:21,027 --> 01:02:23,621 Because, you know, out in the West, you just want a piece of land. 1240 01:02:23,905 --> 01:02:26,021 That's what it's about in America in the 19th century. 1241 01:02:26,284 --> 01:02:27,558 It's always about land. 1242 01:02:27,785 --> 01:02:29,377 He could build a bed and breakfast there. 1243 01:02:29,620 --> 01:02:31,258 You see why they call them the Tent Rocks. 1244 01:02:31,497 --> 01:02:33,408 Another plug for scenic New Mexico. 1245 01:02:34,125 --> 01:02:38,164 Again, this is where the final climactic gunfight in the Wyatt Earp movie is. 1246 01:02:38,504 --> 01:02:41,302 It's also a scene in Young Guns. 1247 01:02:41,590 --> 01:02:45,026 Big gunfight takes place there in Young Guns. 1248 01:02:45,636 --> 01:02:49,948 And it's not far from Cochiti. It's not very far from Santa Fe. 1249 01:02:51,015 --> 01:02:52,733 - He's gonna be mad now. - Yeah. 1250 01:02:52,976 --> 01:02:53,965 The hat. 1251 01:02:54,185 --> 01:02:57,177 Well, the bad guys took the rifle, but they left the hat. 1252 01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:02,395 You know, and good hats like that are in short supply. 1253 01:03:02,777 --> 01:03:05,052 - Now we have the revenge setup. - Right. 1254 01:03:05,321 --> 01:03:07,994 Which is always important in the Western. 1255 01:03:09,827 --> 01:03:11,579 And indeed, as you look at Western history... 1256 01:03:11,829 --> 01:03:14,297 ...revenge seems to be motivating a lot of people. 1257 01:03:14,622 --> 01:03:15,941 And, of course, in our own time... 1258 01:03:16,165 --> 01:03:19,441 ...we understand that revenge motivates whole nations. 1259 01:03:19,752 --> 01:03:21,549 And seems to be a very strong motivator. 1260 01:03:21,796 --> 01:03:23,548 Let's simply examine the headlines, shall we? 1261 01:03:23,798 --> 01:03:25,151 Yeah, you don't have to go far. 1262 01:03:25,383 --> 01:03:28,022 You know, in fact, I wonder if... 1263 01:03:28,302 --> 01:03:29,576 ...on a serious note, I guess... 1264 01:03:29,804 --> 01:03:33,592 ...I wonder if current events don't make Westerns like this resonate more... 1265 01:03:33,933 --> 01:03:37,084 ...and these themes, these powerful themes in good Westerns... 1266 01:03:37,395 --> 01:03:40,068 ...work for people in a way they didn't... 1267 01:03:40,355 --> 01:03:42,789 ...in the last, calmer 20 years we've had... 1268 01:03:43,066 --> 01:03:47,184 ...where indeed we didn't seem to be confronting evil. 1269 01:03:47,530 --> 01:03:49,361 Actually, that'll be an interesting point... 1270 01:03:49,615 --> 01:03:51,606 ...to see if there is a revival of the Western... 1271 01:03:51,867 --> 01:03:54,540 ...precisely because it did allow people to see the world... 1272 01:03:54,828 --> 01:03:57,183 ...in starker terms of good and evil, the classic Western. 1273 01:03:57,456 --> 01:03:58,775 The classic Western always does. 1274 01:03:58,999 --> 01:04:04,027 And in a way that, again, I think that Manichaean view has been revived. 1275 01:04:04,421 --> 01:04:06,377 Well, in the classic Western, also, the good... 1276 01:04:06,631 --> 01:04:08,223 The stark contrast between good and evil... 1277 01:04:08,466 --> 01:04:10,138 In the best of the Westerns, your hero is... 1278 01:04:10,385 --> 01:04:13,263 Your protagonist is often a man of mixed feelings... 1279 01:04:13,554 --> 01:04:15,272 ...and is sort of torn... 1280 01:04:15,515 --> 01:04:17,665 ...but, finally, always does the right thing. 1281 01:04:17,934 --> 01:04:19,765 - Think of Shane, think of High Noon. - High Noon. 1282 01:04:20,019 --> 01:04:21,247 - Think of The Searchers. - Right. 1283 01:04:21,479 --> 01:04:23,868 I mean, it's always that moral problem. 1284 01:04:24,148 --> 01:04:25,786 That goes way back to William S. Hart. 1285 01:04:26,026 --> 01:04:27,459 They called him the "good bad man." 1286 01:04:27,736 --> 01:04:31,968 And so it's present from the very earliest Westerns that we have. 1287 01:04:32,323 --> 01:04:33,472 Always... 1288 01:04:33,699 --> 01:04:35,132 Well, I think even Deadwood... 1289 01:04:35,368 --> 01:04:38,485 ...which is not that sort of goodlevil, easily cast... 1290 01:04:38,788 --> 01:04:44,579 ...but even there, the Bullock character ultimately is a troubled person... 1291 01:04:45,002 --> 01:04:48,836 ...but clearly trying, in some way, to do the right thing. 1292 01:04:49,173 --> 01:04:51,846 Well, he's the lawman who wants to hang up his badge... 1293 01:04:52,134 --> 01:04:54,523 ...but now has to put it back on. It's the Wyatt Earp story. 1294 01:04:54,804 --> 01:04:56,522 Even more interesting is the saloon owner... 1295 01:04:56,764 --> 01:04:58,163 ...the Swearengen character... 1296 01:04:58,389 --> 01:05:01,301 ...who turns out to be a man of real moral centre. 1297 01:05:01,601 --> 01:05:03,273 Or at least a man of some vision... 1298 01:05:03,519 --> 01:05:05,749 ...that the future requires adaptability and change. 1299 01:05:06,023 --> 01:05:07,615 Absolutely. Yeah. 1300 01:05:07,858 --> 01:05:11,055 In his evil, does all sorts of good. It's just stunning. 1301 01:05:11,362 --> 01:05:13,398 Right, and that is, in some ways, though, again... 1302 01:05:13,655 --> 01:05:15,805 ...going back to the Western frame. 1303 01:05:16,075 --> 01:05:20,387 That sort of hero who isn't... Doesn't wanna wear the badge again... 1304 01:05:20,746 --> 01:05:22,577 ...or the Gary Cooper character in High Noon... 1305 01:05:22,831 --> 01:05:26,870 ...who has to do what he has to do ultimately, even if he's troubled by it. 1306 01:05:29,295 --> 01:05:30,364 That's good shooting. 1307 01:05:30,588 --> 01:05:32,943 See, now, that establishes that he is good with his gun. 1308 01:05:33,216 --> 01:05:35,207 You know, so he's the one bad guy that doesn't miss. 1309 01:05:35,468 --> 01:05:37,060 Well, you've gotta have that set up... 1310 01:05:37,303 --> 01:05:40,534 ...or else the final scene with Kevin Kline won't mean anything. 1311 01:05:40,848 --> 01:05:42,042 That is true. 1312 01:05:42,266 --> 01:05:46,054 And so you must always set your villain up as being powerful. 1313 01:05:46,396 --> 01:05:49,035 Look at that, he spilled a little coffee on himself. I hate that. 1314 01:05:49,316 --> 01:05:50,236 - When you fire your gun and...? - Yeah. 1315 01:05:50,275 --> 01:05:52,027 - When you fire your gun and...? - Yeah. 1316 01:05:52,735 --> 01:05:56,091 I think Dennehy is very much a textured character in this... 1317 01:05:56,405 --> 01:06:00,398 ...because he's willing to do what has to be done... 1318 01:06:00,743 --> 01:06:02,893 ...but if he doesn't have to do bad, he doesn't. 1319 01:06:03,162 --> 01:06:04,356 - I mean, he sort of... - Right. 1320 01:06:04,580 --> 01:06:08,289 He sort of... In his own mind, he knows that he just has to go the limit. 1321 01:06:08,626 --> 01:06:11,936 Now, why is the sheriff wearing chaps, though? I'm puzzled by that. 1322 01:06:12,254 --> 01:06:14,131 He's not out on the range. He's in town. 1323 01:06:14,381 --> 01:06:16,133 I mean, but he's got these leather chaps on. 1324 01:06:16,425 --> 01:06:19,064 - It's just a fashion statement. - I see, okay. 1325 01:06:19,427 --> 01:06:22,419 I'd like to see Rosanna Arquette in those, but... 1326 01:06:23,056 --> 01:06:24,409 That's a different movie. 1327 01:06:26,477 --> 01:06:29,628 By the way, having been an extra in a couple of films... 1328 01:06:29,938 --> 01:06:35,171 ...I now pay a lot of attention to the extras in the background. 1329 01:06:35,569 --> 01:06:38,720 This is a great introduction to Goldblum. I love his... 1330 01:06:39,031 --> 01:06:40,703 A very Western character, of course. 1331 01:06:40,949 --> 01:06:43,019 The most Western of all of our characters here. 1332 01:06:43,285 --> 01:06:45,674 But I love him as an actor. I mean, I just think he's great. 1333 01:06:47,079 --> 01:06:49,354 - Another stylish guy, with his fur coat. - Yeah. 1334 01:06:52,293 --> 01:06:53,965 Nice hat. You know, that's... That's good. 1335 01:06:54,211 --> 01:06:56,771 That's a good line because you don't often see that in Westerns. 1336 01:06:57,047 --> 01:06:59,356 After a killing, it is a mess, and who's gonna clean it up? 1337 01:06:59,633 --> 01:07:00,907 You always wonder. 1338 01:07:01,135 --> 01:07:04,366 Who comes around and actually picks up the dead bodies, takes them away? 1339 01:07:04,681 --> 01:07:07,320 But isn't that one of the things that...? Not dead bodies... 1340 01:07:07,601 --> 01:07:10,718 ...but that sheriffs certainly had to do in towns like this... 1341 01:07:11,020 --> 01:07:13,978 ...is, at least, clean up the mess. - Yeah. 1342 01:07:14,273 --> 01:07:16,184 You know, shovel off the horse manure... 1343 01:07:16,442 --> 01:07:20,993 ...or at least drag off the drunks from the street, at some point. 1344 01:07:21,363 --> 01:07:24,514 Well, something you never see in Westerns is just the manure problem. 1345 01:07:24,825 --> 01:07:29,376 I mean, it really is just an incredible problem in Western towns... 1346 01:07:29,747 --> 01:07:31,226 ...and everywhere in the 19th century. 1347 01:07:31,457 --> 01:07:34,574 Well, until they invent Smell-o-vision, or until that gets spread... 1348 01:07:34,877 --> 01:07:37,437 ...we're gonna have a tough time... - Look at that street, though. 1349 01:07:37,712 --> 01:07:40,431 - Do you see a cowpatty anywhere? - There are horses everywhere. 1350 01:07:40,715 --> 01:07:41,515 Horses everywhere, no one seems to be doing anything. 1351 01:07:41,549 --> 01:07:42,823 Horses everywhere, no one seems to be doing anything. 1352 01:07:43,051 --> 01:07:44,040 And no mud. 1353 01:07:44,261 --> 01:07:47,810 I mean, it's also just a... Not too dusty, not too muddy. 1354 01:07:48,140 --> 01:07:50,370 - Just nice and clean. - Nice and clean. 1355 01:07:52,978 --> 01:07:55,367 - There she is, she's gone to town. - The fallen woman, yeah. 1356 01:07:55,647 --> 01:07:57,160 Oh, you hate to see that. 1357 01:07:57,399 --> 01:07:59,549 It's gonna break his heart. And he's having a tough day. 1358 01:07:59,818 --> 01:08:01,456 Yeah, well, Dad's dead. 1359 01:08:03,362 --> 01:08:05,318 Yeah, there you go. 1360 01:08:07,867 --> 01:08:09,459 And you were saying there weren't female... 1361 01:08:09,702 --> 01:08:11,818 There are a lot of female roles in this movie, Frank. 1362 01:08:12,079 --> 01:08:16,277 I think we were saying there were not a lot of fully developed female roles. 1363 01:08:17,710 --> 01:08:23,865 Where were you when they needed you? It's too late, Mal. 1364 01:08:24,342 --> 01:08:28,221 Mal hasn't been doing what a man's gotta do: 1365 01:08:28,555 --> 01:08:30,034 Protecting the homestead. 1366 01:08:34,017 --> 01:08:36,451 See, he's got that... 1367 01:08:36,728 --> 01:08:39,606 ...really nice hat, which is completely inauthentic. 1368 01:08:39,898 --> 01:08:41,331 And sideburns. 1369 01:08:51,326 --> 01:08:55,205 Well, there we go. That's very nice. 1370 01:08:55,538 --> 01:08:58,894 You know, the professional gambler really was a major character... 1371 01:08:59,208 --> 01:09:00,641 ...in Western history, of course. 1372 01:09:00,876 --> 01:09:02,229 And some of them have become famous. 1373 01:09:02,462 --> 01:09:05,454 But there was a whole culture... 1374 01:09:05,757 --> 01:09:08,396 ...and it lived off the underside of Western boomtown life. 1375 01:09:08,677 --> 01:09:10,508 And they ran a circuit. 1376 01:09:10,762 --> 01:09:14,914 They would move from town to town, and they all knew each other... 1377 01:09:15,267 --> 01:09:18,020 ...and they were often involved in these violent acts. 1378 01:09:18,311 --> 01:09:21,587 That's why they're so famous. Men like Ben Thompson, Bill Longley. 1379 01:09:21,898 --> 01:09:24,578 And they are responsible for a lot of our famous Wild West stories... 1380 01:09:24,692 --> 01:09:26,364 And they are responsible for a lot of our famous Wild West stories... 1381 01:09:26,610 --> 01:09:27,929 ...and a lot of the violence. 1382 01:09:28,153 --> 01:09:31,429 And this was all before poker became the new cable TV... 1383 01:09:31,740 --> 01:09:35,255 - That's right, before poker... Yeah. - Cable TV staple. 1384 01:09:37,538 --> 01:09:40,530 Yeah, they would be bucking the tiger back in those days. We have the dance. 1385 01:09:40,833 --> 01:09:43,905 - But did they play Texas Hold'em? - No, they did not play Texas Hold'em. 1386 01:09:44,212 --> 01:09:48,524 - Okay. - Another great Western tradition: 1387 01:09:48,882 --> 01:09:52,875 Any time you see the homesteaders getting together for a party... 1388 01:09:53,220 --> 01:09:54,972 ...you know trouble's coming. 1389 01:09:55,222 --> 01:09:59,500 Nobody ever got to the end of a party and just cleared off the tables. 1390 01:09:59,851 --> 01:10:01,489 No, all the tables have to be upturned. 1391 01:10:04,356 --> 01:10:07,632 And here, I don't know about you, but I find this inexplicable. 1392 01:10:07,943 --> 01:10:10,662 This Scott Glenn suddenly being the romantic connection to...? 1393 01:10:10,946 --> 01:10:12,698 Yeah, when did this happen? I don't know. 1394 01:10:12,948 --> 01:10:16,304 I'm just assuming there must be other scenes that were shot... 1395 01:10:16,617 --> 01:10:19,575 ...that would ease us over from Kevin Kline to Scott Glenn, but... 1396 01:10:21,748 --> 01:10:25,707 Well, you know, she's sort of the only really pretty girl in the whole movie... 1397 01:10:26,044 --> 01:10:29,036 ...and so I think they're gravitating to her. I think that would be natural. 1398 01:10:29,339 --> 01:10:31,807 But each one of them seems to have to be moving on, of course... 1399 01:10:32,092 --> 01:10:33,650 ...in wonderful Western tradition. 1400 01:10:33,885 --> 01:10:37,275 And I think it's fair to say that a single white woman... 1401 01:10:37,597 --> 01:10:40,350 ...might be better off not being single. 1402 01:10:40,642 --> 01:10:44,191 And here they come. Here come the bad guys, of course. 1403 01:10:44,937 --> 01:10:47,132 This is gonna be trouble. 1404 01:10:47,397 --> 01:10:51,436 Again, Paul, not to take issue with your love of New Mexican landscape... 1405 01:10:51,777 --> 01:10:56,293 ...but explain to me again where the appropriate farmland is there. 1406 01:10:56,698 --> 01:10:58,734 You know, you can irrigate. 1407 01:10:59,034 --> 01:11:03,425 Of course, this is all up by Santa Fe, and it's pretty tough. 1408 01:11:03,831 --> 01:11:06,982 Pretty tough growing season. We used to, when I lived up there... 1409 01:11:07,293 --> 01:11:08,726 - Oh, my God! - They shot a pig. 1410 01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:11,030 - They shot a pig. - See, I'll take a lot, but not that. 1411 01:11:11,296 --> 01:11:13,935 That is bad. Oh, look at that. That's the old... 1412 01:11:14,216 --> 01:11:16,605 And now it's even worse. They're destroying the barbecue. 1413 01:11:16,885 --> 01:11:19,035 Oh, he's gonna die. That's not gonna work. 1414 01:11:19,346 --> 01:11:21,223 Yep. And why? Because we don't know who he is. 1415 01:11:21,681 --> 01:11:24,115 - See that little adobe house there? - Good shot, though. 1416 01:11:24,392 --> 01:11:26,348 That is the house we use in our documentary... 1417 01:11:26,603 --> 01:11:28,241 ...on Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid... 1418 01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:30,630 ...to kill Butch and Sundance. We used that for Bolivia. 1419 01:11:30,899 --> 01:11:33,732 That's a little movie magic for you. TV magic. 1420 01:11:34,068 --> 01:11:37,026 Because this is out at the Cook Ranch, where they're doing it. 1421 01:11:37,321 --> 01:11:38,595 Good shot. 1422 01:11:38,822 --> 01:11:41,097 You know, all of them seem to have the same kind of rifles. 1423 01:11:41,368 --> 01:11:43,165 You know, if you have an eye patch like that... 1424 01:11:43,411 --> 01:11:45,925 ...wearing the kerchief over your mouth and nose... 1425 01:11:46,206 --> 01:11:47,958 ...seems a little superfluous, doesn't it? 1426 01:11:48,208 --> 01:11:51,598 He's a fairly identifiable guy. 1427 01:11:54,255 --> 01:11:56,325 Oh, he's going after them. Oh, that's nice. 1428 01:11:56,591 --> 01:11:58,786 - That was a Gene Autry kind of mount. - Yeah, absolutely. 1429 01:11:59,052 --> 01:12:00,610 Very, very nicely done. 1430 01:12:00,928 --> 01:12:04,716 We won't quit! You bastards! 1431 01:12:13,607 --> 01:12:16,838 - Is that a fair mix? - I'm saving lives here. 1432 01:12:17,152 --> 01:12:20,462 The straight stuff would blister boot leather. 1433 01:12:20,782 --> 01:12:23,899 That is a very traditional scene, you know. 1434 01:12:24,202 --> 01:12:27,194 The old attack on the homesteaders, they're not gonna give up. 1435 01:12:30,165 --> 01:12:33,794 And again, and I don't mean this in a negative way... 1436 01:12:34,127 --> 01:12:36,925 ...just the use of all these old Western clich�s. 1437 01:12:37,213 --> 01:12:38,566 And they're all in here... 1438 01:12:38,798 --> 01:12:41,790 ...because this is a homage, in many ways... 1439 01:12:42,093 --> 01:12:43,367 ...to the grand old Westerns. 1440 01:12:43,595 --> 01:12:44,869 Which is kind of a problem. 1441 01:12:45,096 --> 01:12:46,848 As they attempted, like Kasdan's doing here... 1442 01:12:47,098 --> 01:12:49,817 ...to reinvent the Western and make it relevant to modern audiences... 1443 01:12:50,101 --> 01:12:52,331 ...they're both bound by the past and at the same time... 1444 01:12:52,604 --> 01:12:56,995 ...trying to do something new, and it's a tough transition. 1445 01:12:57,733 --> 01:13:00,884 Nothing happened, Tyree. 1446 01:13:02,030 --> 01:13:03,429 How did he get there? 1447 01:13:03,656 --> 01:13:05,453 Last I saw, he was chasing the bad guys. 1448 01:13:05,700 --> 01:13:09,818 - And now he's got a different outfit. - He just kept a-riding, that's all. 1449 01:13:14,125 --> 01:13:18,562 By the way, women in the saloon was a complete no-no. 1450 01:13:18,921 --> 01:13:21,674 The saloon was the man's world. 1451 01:13:21,965 --> 01:13:24,035 And one of the reasons women were not in the saloon... 1452 01:13:24,301 --> 01:13:27,134 ...was to avoid this very problem, of guys getting drunk... 1453 01:13:27,471 --> 01:13:29,302 One of the reasons the West was so violent... 1454 01:13:29,556 --> 01:13:31,831 ...and one of the reasons that so few people were killed... 1455 01:13:32,100 --> 01:13:33,215 It goes hand in hand. 1456 01:13:33,435 --> 01:13:35,903 - is that much of the violence grew out of the saloon culture. 1457 01:13:36,187 --> 01:13:39,259 And after, you know, a whole day of drinking... 1458 01:13:39,567 --> 01:13:41,558 ...because they started early and they went late... 1459 01:13:41,819 --> 01:13:45,255 ...when you finally got into that brawl, you couldn't hit anyone with a gun. 1460 01:13:45,573 --> 01:13:47,689 But you could do some damage to one another... 1461 01:13:47,949 --> 01:13:51,385 ...with fists, knives, bites and so forth. 1462 01:13:51,703 --> 01:13:54,661 At least, this is the certain... The earlier backwoods culture... 1463 01:13:54,956 --> 01:13:58,073 ...where people did a lot of eye-gouging, nose-biting. 1464 01:13:58,376 --> 01:14:00,014 The whole problem with dentistry, again... 1465 01:14:00,253 --> 01:14:02,050 ...and why people did not have perfect teeth. 1466 01:14:02,297 --> 01:14:04,288 Because they were getting knocked out all the time. 1467 01:14:04,549 --> 01:14:06,619 I should have killed you long ago. 1468 01:14:06,885 --> 01:14:11,481 But they had refined their fisticuffs dramatically by the late 19th century. 1469 01:14:11,848 --> 01:14:14,442 After the Civil War, they'd gotten away from that Davy Crockett... 1470 01:14:14,725 --> 01:14:16,920 Right, they didn't bite noses off quite as rapidly. 1471 01:14:17,185 --> 01:14:21,383 The l-let-my-toenails-grow-this-long-so- l-can-gouge-out-people's-eyes culture. 1472 01:14:21,733 --> 01:14:23,485 But I don't think... You know, in the South... 1473 01:14:23,735 --> 01:14:26,693 ...nose-biting really was, as we understand it... 1474 01:14:26,988 --> 01:14:28,785 ...an affront to one's honour. 1475 01:14:29,031 --> 01:14:32,740 I'm not sure, in the Old West, it had quite the same... 1476 01:14:34,203 --> 01:14:35,636 Quite the same value. 1477 01:14:35,872 --> 01:14:38,432 One of the commentaries, in fact, on the famous fight... 1478 01:14:38,708 --> 01:14:44,340 ...between the homesteader and Shane at the... 1479 01:14:44,754 --> 01:14:46,824 You know, before the climactic gunfight in Shane. 1480 01:14:47,090 --> 01:14:49,604 - In the bar. - No, no, no. 1481 01:14:49,926 --> 01:14:51,518 Later, when they're fighting at the ranch. 1482 01:14:51,761 --> 01:14:53,877 When he's beating him so he won't interfere with him... 1483 01:14:54,139 --> 01:14:55,697 ...going down to face down the bad guys. 1484 01:14:55,974 --> 01:14:57,248 It's just how realistic it is. 1485 01:14:57,475 --> 01:15:00,785 They're just kind of gouging each other and wrestling and rolling around... 1486 01:15:01,105 --> 01:15:04,415 ...instead of the traditional fistfight that we see so often in Westerns. 1487 01:15:04,733 --> 01:15:06,485 Especially those Gene Autry Westerns. 1488 01:15:06,734 --> 01:15:08,964 - Gene only used his fists. - Yeah, he only uses his fists. 1489 01:15:09,237 --> 01:15:11,228 - That's the cowboy code. - Yeah. 1490 01:15:12,824 --> 01:15:15,338 And again, coming into the ranch there... 1491 01:15:15,618 --> 01:15:18,291 ...with a beautiful New Mexico mountain in the background. 1492 01:15:19,539 --> 01:15:21,609 - There's a nice little stunt. - Nice little stunt. 1493 01:15:21,874 --> 01:15:24,627 - For what purpose, I'm not sure. - Well, that's this little kid. 1494 01:15:24,919 --> 01:15:27,433 Now the kid's in trouble. 1495 01:15:27,714 --> 01:15:29,033 See, now they're picking on kids. 1496 01:15:29,257 --> 01:15:31,896 They shot a pig and now they're picking on this little kid. 1497 01:15:32,175 --> 01:15:34,450 They've established their credentials as bad, yeah. 1498 01:15:34,719 --> 01:15:36,277 What's the problem, Swan? 1499 01:15:37,514 --> 01:15:41,029 Yeah, what's the problem? 1500 01:15:43,229 --> 01:15:45,220 And he seems to intervene even when he's not needed. 1501 01:15:45,481 --> 01:15:46,755 I mean, like, you know... 1502 01:15:46,983 --> 01:15:50,373 - Emmett. - McKendrick. 1503 01:15:50,695 --> 01:15:51,684 And they have a past. 1504 01:15:51,904 --> 01:15:54,259 But it's never exactly clear how they all knew each other. 1505 01:15:54,532 --> 01:15:56,921 That's because we've been talking through this whole movie... 1506 01:15:57,201 --> 01:15:58,475 ...rather than paying attention. 1507 01:15:58,702 --> 01:16:03,696 Well, the Scott Glenn character killed his father and went to jail for it. 1508 01:16:04,707 --> 01:16:07,380 Because I've actually watched this film, so I know this. 1509 01:16:07,669 --> 01:16:09,341 But that seems to be about it. 1510 01:16:09,587 --> 01:16:12,465 Why he killed him, we're not quite sure. Or else I just forgot. 1511 01:16:12,757 --> 01:16:15,794 He killed him because a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, and I think... 1512 01:16:20,641 --> 01:16:21,994 Oh, there's the guy with the patch. 1513 01:16:22,226 --> 01:16:24,137 So these are the guys who attacked Scott Glenn... 1514 01:16:24,395 --> 01:16:26,147 ...at the very beginning of the film. - Right. 1515 01:16:26,396 --> 01:16:28,591 And that's how he ended up with this horse... 1516 01:16:28,856 --> 01:16:32,405 ...which started out their horse. - That's right. 1517 01:16:33,611 --> 01:16:36,284 It's all wheels within wheels. 1518 01:16:36,572 --> 01:16:41,088 And indeed horses were very important in the West... 1519 01:16:41,452 --> 01:16:44,364 ...and horse thievery was a major crime... 1520 01:16:44,664 --> 01:16:46,973 ...kind of like stealing cars today, no question about it. 1521 01:16:47,250 --> 01:16:49,002 People were always stealing people's horses... 1522 01:16:49,252 --> 01:16:51,846 ...and people were always getting very, very upset about it. 1523 01:16:52,128 --> 01:16:56,280 And they truly would hang you for it. Usually without a trial... 1524 01:16:56,633 --> 01:16:58,749 ...because why bother with that? 1525 01:16:59,011 --> 01:17:01,241 Some places, horse stealing carried a stiffer penalty... 1526 01:17:01,514 --> 01:17:02,663 ...than crimes against people. 1527 01:17:02,890 --> 01:17:04,960 Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. 1528 01:17:06,644 --> 01:17:09,920 They had a very high sense of property values in the Old West... 1529 01:17:10,231 --> 01:17:11,983 ...because they didn't have a lot of property. 1530 01:17:12,233 --> 01:17:14,269 And when you worked as hard for what they had... 1531 01:17:14,527 --> 01:17:18,156 ...you just didn't take it well that people would take it away from you. 1532 01:17:20,532 --> 01:17:24,571 And people often took the law into their own hands. 1533 01:17:24,911 --> 01:17:27,379 Which is one of the reasons that that collective violence... 1534 01:17:27,664 --> 01:17:31,054 ...you were talking about earlier was so common. 1535 01:17:31,376 --> 01:17:34,766 I mean, the vigilantes up in Montana, I believe, hanged about 50 people... 1536 01:17:35,088 --> 01:17:36,407 ...during their run... 1537 01:17:36,631 --> 01:17:38,542 ...and at least 20 of them deserved to be hanged. 1538 01:17:38,801 --> 01:17:40,200 I was gonna say, who deserved it? 1539 01:17:40,427 --> 01:17:42,657 Well, it starts breaking down about midway... 1540 01:17:42,930 --> 01:17:46,366 ...and they start not being particular about who they're stringing up. 1541 01:17:46,682 --> 01:17:49,150 If you listen to what vigilantes say, they all deserve it. 1542 01:17:49,435 --> 01:17:50,550 They all deserve, yes. 1543 01:17:50,770 --> 01:17:53,045 But usually, when people look a little more closely... 1544 01:17:53,314 --> 01:17:55,669 ...at who the victims were and who the vigilantes were... 1545 01:17:55,942 --> 01:18:01,494 ...sometimes they discover patterns that move away from good and evil... 1546 01:18:01,906 --> 01:18:06,263 ...or enforcing the law in the absence of duly appointed authorities. 1547 01:18:06,619 --> 01:18:08,450 There were other agendas in play. 1548 01:18:08,704 --> 01:18:10,342 It quickly comes to settling old scores... 1549 01:18:10,580 --> 01:18:12,093 ...or taking care of economic issues. 1550 01:18:12,332 --> 01:18:14,163 - Yeah. - What a handy way to do it. 1551 01:18:14,417 --> 01:18:17,887 This sheriff's office was used as the telegraph office in The Missing. 1552 01:18:21,091 --> 01:18:23,082 I can tell because of the window placements. 1553 01:18:27,181 --> 01:18:29,854 Is that bar set still there, or is that an interior somewhere else? 1554 01:18:30,142 --> 01:18:33,452 That saloon, I believe, burned down. 1555 01:18:33,771 --> 01:18:36,001 No, it was an interior there at the ranch... 1556 01:18:36,273 --> 01:18:37,752 ...but it burned down. 1557 01:18:40,401 --> 01:18:43,359 Half the set burnt. It was a huge fire, great big fire. 1558 01:18:43,654 --> 01:18:45,531 - They rebuild? - No, no, they didn't. 1559 01:18:45,782 --> 01:18:49,058 And, in fact, some of the buildings are still marked. 1560 01:18:49,368 --> 01:18:53,043 So unless they come up with a Western that needs a burned-out set... 1561 01:18:53,372 --> 01:18:55,727 Oh, it was completely destroyed, yeah. 1562 01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:00,869 They saved one of the streets and some of the outbuildings... 1563 01:19:01,256 --> 01:19:05,568 ...but this big saloon was one of the buildings that was touched by fire. 1564 01:19:05,926 --> 01:19:09,316 Actually, it's still there, part of it is, but it's not dressed out anymore. 1565 01:19:09,638 --> 01:19:11,833 Those Western towns are very vulnerable to that. 1566 01:19:12,099 --> 01:19:16,217 Old Tucson burned down. Didn't Melody Ranch burn down? 1567 01:19:16,562 --> 01:19:19,360 Melody Ranch? Yeah, I mean, they... It's back in use, though, today. 1568 01:19:19,648 --> 01:19:22,481 That's where they're shooting Deadwood now. 1569 01:19:22,776 --> 01:19:25,370 I heard. I couldn't believe they were shooting Deadwood there. 1570 01:19:25,654 --> 01:19:27,849 Somewhere, Gene Autry is rolling over in his grave... 1571 01:19:28,115 --> 01:19:32,666 ...at the way in which the Melody Ranch has been reutilised. 1572 01:19:33,036 --> 01:19:36,585 They gave the Golden Boot for Best Western to Deadwood this year. 1573 01:19:36,915 --> 01:19:38,826 - Really? - There was murmuring in the crowd. 1574 01:19:39,084 --> 01:19:45,034 You could tell that there's a lot of mixed feeling on that. 1575 01:19:45,466 --> 01:19:47,422 - I just think it's so brilliantly written. - Right. 1576 01:19:47,676 --> 01:19:49,951 Much like this movie. This is a very finely written film... 1577 01:19:50,220 --> 01:19:51,573 ...and characterisations are great. 1578 01:19:51,805 --> 01:19:53,875 What he really does in Deadwood, like Kasdan can do... 1579 01:19:54,141 --> 01:19:56,132 ...is he creates these very compelling characters. 1580 01:19:57,476 --> 01:19:59,944 He has the advantage, though, of being able to stretch it out... 1581 01:20:00,229 --> 01:20:01,867 ...over 12 hours or whatever in a season. 1582 01:20:02,106 --> 01:20:05,621 This movie, because it's down to two hours and 10 minutes... 1583 01:20:05,943 --> 01:20:09,219 ...the truncated time frame limits a little bit... 1584 01:20:09,530 --> 01:20:12,488 ...that leisurely development of character. 1585 01:20:12,783 --> 01:20:16,458 Everything has to be done in shorthand, of course. 1586 01:20:16,788 --> 01:20:18,699 Most of the characters are fairly well developed. 1587 01:20:18,999 --> 01:20:23,914 I think Jeff Goldblum is probably not... You never get much of a sense of who... 1588 01:20:24,295 --> 01:20:28,004 - Who he is. - Or what side he's on until the end... 1589 01:20:28,340 --> 01:20:31,218 ...when he clearly turns. 1590 01:20:31,510 --> 01:20:33,148 But you don't really know why he did. 1591 01:20:33,387 --> 01:20:36,299 How many of these characters are in The Big Chill? 1592 01:20:36,599 --> 01:20:38,829 - Kevin Kline, Jeff Goldblum. - Kevin Kline, Jeff Goldblum. 1593 01:20:39,101 --> 01:20:40,250 Kevin Costner is the corpse. 1594 01:20:40,477 --> 01:20:43,071 Kevin Costner is the corpse who's being laid out at the beginning. 1595 01:20:43,355 --> 01:20:46,984 Which is why I think he gets this role. It's to make up for that. 1596 01:20:47,317 --> 01:20:50,787 Danny Glover is in other movies of Kasdan. 1597 01:20:51,112 --> 01:20:53,421 - He's been in Grand Canyon. - Right, Grand Canyon. 1598 01:20:53,698 --> 01:20:56,007 - It was definitely... He had a... - He has a stock company. 1599 01:20:56,285 --> 01:21:01,075 He has a company, and I think that's also not atypical of Westerns... 1600 01:21:01,456 --> 01:21:04,573 ...that they depended on their group. 1601 01:21:06,128 --> 01:21:07,322 No, it's interesting. 1602 01:21:07,546 --> 01:21:11,664 I complained earlier about how Eastern the sensibilities of the actors are... 1603 01:21:12,009 --> 01:21:15,206 ...and how identified they are with more urban dramas and everything. 1604 01:21:15,511 --> 01:21:18,583 But, of course, the story of the West is that everybody came from someplace. 1605 01:21:18,889 --> 01:21:24,282 For the most part, even by the 1870s, no one had been born there. 1606 01:21:24,687 --> 01:21:27,281 - Except the ethnic people, of course. - People had been born there. 1607 01:21:27,565 --> 01:21:28,680 But you know what I mean. 1608 01:21:28,899 --> 01:21:31,493 In terms of the population, the vast majority of the population... 1609 01:21:31,777 --> 01:21:34,416 ...they were coming from somewhere else. Especially the white folks. 1610 01:21:34,697 --> 01:21:36,210 Except in a place like New Mexico... 1611 01:21:36,449 --> 01:21:38,804 ...where you did have a significant population of people... 1612 01:21:39,077 --> 01:21:41,875 Of Mexican people. 1613 01:21:42,162 --> 01:21:45,313 At least, in and around the Rio Grande Valley. 1614 01:21:45,624 --> 01:21:48,092 The Hispanic population had been there for hundreds of years... 1615 01:21:48,377 --> 01:21:49,257 ...and the, of course, native population had been there for hundreds of years. 1616 01:21:49,294 --> 01:21:51,649 ...and the, of course, native population had been there for hundreds of years. 1617 01:21:51,922 --> 01:21:54,880 And that's, as we've said, entirely absent in this movie. 1618 01:21:55,175 --> 01:21:58,724 Right. But all the white people would have come from somewhere else. 1619 01:21:59,054 --> 01:22:02,444 Within, in fact... Unless they were descendants of old mountain men... 1620 01:22:02,766 --> 01:22:04,563 ...and then they're going to be half-blood... 1621 01:22:04,810 --> 01:22:07,040 ...because they're gonna be from mixed marriages. 1622 01:22:07,312 --> 01:22:08,665 All the white people... 1623 01:22:08,896 --> 01:22:10,648 Would've come within the last 10 or 15 years. 1624 01:22:10,898 --> 01:22:12,809 - Especially after the railroad. - Right. 1625 01:22:13,067 --> 01:22:14,546 Nice saddle. Look at that. 1626 01:22:14,778 --> 01:22:17,008 And, of course, all the Western history buffs... 1627 01:22:17,281 --> 01:22:20,751 ...are going nuts over the saddles. They're very modern. 1628 01:22:21,118 --> 01:22:24,554 That is a particularly spectacular gun he has. 1629 01:22:24,871 --> 01:22:29,308 - And here he is just doing a fast draw. - And I'm sure that's a period tin can. 1630 01:22:29,668 --> 01:22:33,946 Yeah, the old tin can. Look at that. Very nice. 1631 01:22:34,297 --> 01:22:37,289 I do not believe that cactus, by the way, is native to this area... 1632 01:22:37,591 --> 01:22:39,070 ...and is a piece of set dressing. 1633 01:22:40,594 --> 01:22:43,313 This guy's making a serious mistake. 1634 01:22:46,892 --> 01:22:50,168 This is where they beat him up, and thus he's gonna be mad. 1635 01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:52,310 Even madder later. 1636 01:22:53,357 --> 01:22:55,427 But once again... 1637 01:22:55,694 --> 01:22:57,810 ...instead of simply just shooting him in the head... 1638 01:22:58,113 --> 01:22:59,466 And getting this over with, yeah. 1639 01:22:59,697 --> 01:23:02,689 They decide to ride over him a couple times, breaking his ribs... 1640 01:23:04,076 --> 01:23:07,910 ...and then complain that he's not dead yet. 1641 01:23:08,247 --> 01:23:11,603 You know, they all have guns. Just shoot him. 1642 01:23:12,668 --> 01:23:15,660 But, you know, if they did, Frank, let me explain a little cinema. 1643 01:23:15,963 --> 01:23:18,841 - I'm not quite sure what you mean. - Let me explain a little cinema to you. 1644 01:23:19,132 --> 01:23:21,168 If they just shot him, then we'd have no movie. 1645 01:23:21,468 --> 01:23:24,938 But it is true. Why do they have to ride a horse back and forth over him? 1646 01:23:25,263 --> 01:23:28,619 It's working for me. I don't... 1647 01:23:28,933 --> 01:23:30,924 - You know... - But we will have a little bit... 1648 01:23:31,185 --> 01:23:32,982 ...of payback later on, so he is setting up... 1649 01:23:33,229 --> 01:23:35,424 Major payback. They're setting up major payback later. 1650 01:23:35,690 --> 01:23:37,601 - And payback in kind. - Right. 1651 01:23:37,859 --> 01:23:41,852 They're really mad at him because he's wearing that very modern holster... 1652 01:23:42,197 --> 01:23:44,233 ...that is not correct to the period. 1653 01:23:45,408 --> 01:23:47,046 - Danny Glover to the rescue. - There we go. 1654 01:23:47,285 --> 01:23:50,322 Oh, see, now they're gonna shoot him. They just wanted to torture him first. 1655 01:23:54,458 --> 01:23:59,009 Now, see, I don't understand that line, "I don't wanna kill you." Why not? 1656 01:23:59,421 --> 01:24:02,333 What is the issue here? Now, here's a good guy making the same error... 1657 01:24:02,633 --> 01:24:04,351 ...and this often happens in the Western... 1658 01:24:04,593 --> 01:24:07,983 ...some sort of moral sensibility preventing him from killing them all. 1659 01:24:08,305 --> 01:24:12,821 - That was good. - He had to wait for the person to draw. 1660 01:24:13,185 --> 01:24:15,699 Danny Glover has the same rules that John Wayne did. 1661 01:24:15,980 --> 01:24:17,936 You don't fire until you've been fired upon... 1662 01:24:18,191 --> 01:24:21,551 ...that's just all there is to it. - That's the Gene Autry cowboy code... 1663 01:24:21,693 --> 01:24:22,682 - That's right. ...right there. 1664 01:24:23,445 --> 01:24:27,563 You don't shoot first and you don't shoot anyone who's unarmed. 1665 01:24:28,533 --> 01:24:30,808 If you have to shoot them, the shoulder will do. 1666 01:24:31,078 --> 01:24:33,797 - Right. - Here's the way the West really worked: 1667 01:24:34,164 --> 01:24:37,554 Out in Cimarron, New Mexico, in the 1870s... 1668 01:24:37,876 --> 01:24:41,152 ...Davy Crockett's grandson... Well, grandnephew, lived... 1669 01:24:41,463 --> 01:24:44,182 ...and he was named Davy Crockett, and he was a bad, bad character... 1670 01:24:44,466 --> 01:24:47,856 ...and he had killed two buffalo soldiers in the saloon there in Cimarron... 1671 01:24:48,177 --> 01:24:51,647 ...and every time he came into town, he caused trouble and upset people... 1672 01:24:51,972 --> 01:24:55,169 ...because he was just always threatening people and mouthing off... 1673 01:24:55,477 --> 01:24:57,832 ...and just a bad-news guy. 1674 01:24:58,104 --> 01:25:00,857 So three of the leading citizens of the town got their shotguns... 1675 01:25:01,149 --> 01:25:03,344 ...waited for him the next time he rode into town... 1676 01:25:03,610 --> 01:25:06,647 ...and blew him out of the saddle with the shotguns from ambush. 1677 01:25:06,946 --> 01:25:09,938 And then they held a coroner's jury and they declared themselves... 1678 01:25:10,241 --> 01:25:12,197 ...to have engaged in justifiable homicide. 1679 01:25:12,452 --> 01:25:16,286 And that's how they really took care of bad guys in the Old West. 1680 01:25:16,622 --> 01:25:19,580 - It's succinct, it's to the point. - To the point and no problem. 1681 01:25:19,875 --> 01:25:21,149 - Gets the job done. - No problem. 1682 01:25:21,376 --> 01:25:24,334 Again, not worrying about the niceties about shooting someone in the hand... 1683 01:25:24,630 --> 01:25:26,302 ...to have their gun fly away. 1684 01:25:26,548 --> 01:25:28,504 Well, that's a Gene Autry thing, you know. 1685 01:25:28,759 --> 01:25:32,274 - Gene Autry, Roy Rogers thing. - Takes a particularly skilled eye. 1686 01:25:32,639 --> 01:25:35,756 Also, of course, you have to do that because you make films for children... 1687 01:25:36,059 --> 01:25:38,015 ...and you don't wanna teach them the wrong lesson. 1688 01:25:38,269 --> 01:25:40,908 Teaching children they can shoot people's guns out of their hands... 1689 01:25:41,188 --> 01:25:43,986 ...is not good either. - That goes back to the language issue. 1690 01:25:44,274 --> 01:25:47,710 In the Hayes Code era and the like, you had to be careful about language... 1691 01:25:48,028 --> 01:25:50,747 ...so why not just have the character be very laconic. 1692 01:25:51,031 --> 01:25:53,147 Then you don't have to worry about whether they cuss... 1693 01:25:53,408 --> 01:25:56,206 ...because they just say very little. - You can't say anything anyway. 1694 01:25:56,494 --> 01:25:58,405 Can't use language to its most effective... 1695 01:25:58,663 --> 01:25:59,891 And in the newer Westerns... 1696 01:26:00,123 --> 01:26:03,559 ...you almost never hear anyone called a sidewinder anymore. 1697 01:26:03,877 --> 01:26:06,949 - I regret this. - I do too. I do too. 1698 01:26:07,254 --> 01:26:10,485 The loss of Gabby Hayes has been sad for all of us. 1699 01:26:10,799 --> 01:26:12,994 "You old sidewinder!" 1700 01:26:14,846 --> 01:26:16,598 Yeah, I remember that. 1701 01:26:22,061 --> 01:26:24,655 You know, I'm still reacting to the shooting of that pig. 1702 01:26:24,939 --> 01:26:26,452 That really bothered me for some reason. 1703 01:26:26,691 --> 01:26:29,285 It was a cute little pig, you know, and I'm having flashbacks... 1704 01:26:29,569 --> 01:26:31,525 ...to the movie Babe the Pig, you know what I mean? 1705 01:26:31,779 --> 01:26:33,770 Which I had to watch with my kids over and over... 1706 01:26:34,031 --> 01:26:35,942 ...and we couldn't eat bacon for the longest time. 1707 01:26:36,199 --> 01:26:38,997 And we talk about the way pigs have been transformed in the new Western. 1708 01:26:39,286 --> 01:26:42,323 - In Deadwood, of course, the pigs... - Oh, they eat the people, that's right. 1709 01:26:42,622 --> 01:26:45,375 They serve as the all-purpose garbage dump... 1710 01:26:45,667 --> 01:26:47,464 ...including the way to get rid of... 1711 01:26:47,711 --> 01:26:50,783 So pigs, I'm afraid, they've lost their cuteness now. 1712 01:26:51,089 --> 01:26:55,560 As you know, because you and I both study the early American frontier... 1713 01:26:55,928 --> 01:26:57,805 ...which bonds us, of course... 1714 01:26:58,055 --> 01:27:01,206 ...and this allows us, also, to use the term "frontier" in Western history... 1715 01:27:01,516 --> 01:27:05,748 - Which we use very proudly. - We use proudly. Arrogantly, in fact. 1716 01:27:06,104 --> 01:27:08,493 But indeed there was a problem back then with wild pigs. 1717 01:27:08,773 --> 01:27:10,968 Truly attacking children and that sort of thing. 1718 01:27:11,234 --> 01:27:13,543 Well, the frontier settlers... 1719 01:27:13,820 --> 01:27:16,380 ...in early American Appalachian frontier regions... 1720 01:27:16,698 --> 01:27:20,293 ...they still, through the 19th century, just left their pigs to run wild. 1721 01:27:20,618 --> 01:27:22,848 - That's absolutely right. - Made them easy to take care of. 1722 01:27:23,121 --> 01:27:24,634 Plenty of forage for them to eat. 1723 01:27:24,872 --> 01:27:27,181 But it turned them into pretty wild animals pretty quickly. 1724 01:27:27,457 --> 01:27:30,415 And you know one of the things you never see in the wagon-train movies... 1725 01:27:30,711 --> 01:27:32,702 ...are all the pigs that would be waddling along. 1726 01:27:32,964 --> 01:27:35,842 But truly, pigs, goats, cows, I mean, it's... 1727 01:27:36,134 --> 01:27:40,332 In the wagon train for the Mountain Meadows show that I'm doing... 1728 01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:44,798 ...one of our problems was this wagon train that was wiped out in 1857... 1729 01:27:45,143 --> 01:27:49,375 ...had 900 head of cattle with them, taking them to California. 1730 01:27:49,731 --> 01:27:53,440 And, you know, we couldn't afford 900 cows, so... 1731 01:27:53,775 --> 01:27:56,608 - You just do that with CGI? - We do, yeah. 1732 01:27:56,903 --> 01:27:59,656 But it just shows you the kind of stock that people would be driving... 1733 01:27:59,948 --> 01:28:01,984 ...which meant they had herders along with it. 1734 01:28:03,034 --> 01:28:04,513 I've done some work on Kit Carson... 1735 01:28:04,744 --> 01:28:08,578 ...and one of the most amazing stories about Kit Carson is that he and... 1736 01:28:08,915 --> 01:28:12,828 This is in '50, I think, 1850, '51. 1737 01:28:13,170 --> 01:28:15,161 - he and a couple of his old mountain-man buddies... 1738 01:28:15,423 --> 01:28:21,737 ...decide that they're going to take 5000 head of sheep... 1739 01:28:22,178 --> 01:28:25,966 ...from Taos and Santa Fe across the Sierras... 1740 01:28:26,307 --> 01:28:28,104 ...to the California goldfields. 1741 01:28:28,351 --> 01:28:30,307 Thinking they're gonna make a killing by selling... 1742 01:28:30,562 --> 01:28:33,872 And they do. They buy up, at 25 cents a head... 1743 01:28:34,190 --> 01:28:35,908 ...every sheep in New Mexico... 1744 01:28:36,150 --> 01:28:38,459 ...and they herd them, can you believe this, all the way up. 1745 01:28:38,736 --> 01:28:41,330 They go up the Front Range and then over on the California Trail... 1746 01:28:41,614 --> 01:28:44,890 ...herd them to the goldfields, sell them for $5 apiece and make a fortune. 1747 01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:48,351 - I just have this image of Kit Carson... - Of 5000 sheep. 1748 01:28:48,662 --> 01:28:52,257 Yeah, Kit Carson herding sheep all the way across the Humboldt. 1749 01:28:52,583 --> 01:28:54,858 Not quite as glamorous as the grand cattle drive. 1750 01:28:55,128 --> 01:28:57,926 It just doesn't work as a cinematic image. 1751 01:28:58,214 --> 01:29:02,253 I see the movie now, with Gabby Hayes. "Herd them up, kid. Get them moving." 1752 01:29:02,635 --> 01:29:06,264 - Yeah, it doesn't quite work. - Yeah. 1753 01:29:06,597 --> 01:29:09,669 The Wild West, where men were men and sheep were nervous. 1754 01:29:14,521 --> 01:29:18,753 Now, we have to have each of our protagonist brought down, one by one. 1755 01:29:19,109 --> 01:29:21,782 By the way, note the difference in the bars in the cell. 1756 01:29:22,070 --> 01:29:24,868 Between the prison we had earlier, which was a different movie set. 1757 01:29:25,156 --> 01:29:28,034 And by the way, I believe the bars in the cell in the earlier prison... 1758 01:29:28,326 --> 01:29:29,964 ...were more authentic, the sort of square. 1759 01:29:30,203 --> 01:29:32,558 - Here we have the ones we're used to. - A little too modern. 1760 01:29:32,832 --> 01:29:34,868 A little too modern-looking here, so... 1761 01:29:40,630 --> 01:29:44,862 Like, of all the things the filmmakers wish to be criticised on... 1762 01:29:45,218 --> 01:29:48,210 - The state of the bars. - The accuracy of the bars. 1763 01:29:48,513 --> 01:29:49,912 So that's what... 1764 01:29:50,139 --> 01:29:51,936 No wonder filmmakers would wanna grab a gun... 1765 01:29:52,183 --> 01:29:53,582 ...and start taking care of people. 1766 01:29:53,810 --> 01:29:57,723 It's just like, "What? They're criticising us for what?" 1767 01:29:58,064 --> 01:30:01,215 Though the interesting thing, in the people who've contacted me... 1768 01:30:01,526 --> 01:30:04,916 ...always to sort of read things and look at things related to movies... 1769 01:30:05,237 --> 01:30:08,229 ...the attention to certain details, I always find astonishing. 1770 01:30:08,532 --> 01:30:11,842 That certain people are very interested in getting certain details right... 1771 01:30:12,161 --> 01:30:16,552 ...but aren't the least bit interested in getting other parts of historical detail. 1772 01:30:16,916 --> 01:30:22,707 That's to say, they may pay attention to "Were the bars this way in the jail?"... 1773 01:30:23,130 --> 01:30:26,008 ...but have a script that's so outlandish... 1774 01:30:26,342 --> 01:30:29,061 ...that why they want a historian to review it, I never understand. 1775 01:30:29,345 --> 01:30:32,496 That it has no basis in any place or time... 1776 01:30:32,806 --> 01:30:36,321 ...but they want certain details right. "Were the buttons this way?" 1777 01:30:36,643 --> 01:30:38,361 Which is something I'm not equipped to talk about. 1778 01:30:38,812 --> 01:30:40,370 When I worked on The Missing, in fact... 1779 01:30:40,605 --> 01:30:44,723 ...one of the more interesting calls I got from the producers was... 1780 01:30:45,068 --> 01:30:47,059 ...what kind of seasoning would be used... 1781 01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:51,552 ...on the fish that the hero was cooking for his daughter. 1782 01:30:51,909 --> 01:30:53,661 - Did you have an answer? - I did, you know. 1783 01:30:53,911 --> 01:30:56,664 I went to my wife, and she gave me the answer for that question. 1784 01:30:56,954 --> 01:30:59,149 But we actually went and got Sam Arnold... 1785 01:30:59,415 --> 01:31:02,407 ...who runs a wonderful restaurant up in Denver called The Fort... 1786 01:31:02,710 --> 01:31:05,065 ...and he has a cookbook on cooking on the Santa Fe Trail. 1787 01:31:05,338 --> 01:31:08,057 And I went and got his cookbook. And cilantro was the answer. 1788 01:31:08,341 --> 01:31:09,820 - That is what they would have... - Okay. 1789 01:31:10,051 --> 01:31:14,010 That's what they would've had. And they would've had that available. 1790 01:31:14,347 --> 01:31:18,625 So did my bit for Ron Howard and the gang on The Missing. 1791 01:31:18,976 --> 01:31:22,969 And I think people are just astonished by the historical accuracy of that film. 1792 01:31:23,313 --> 01:31:24,666 Everyone comments on it, of course. 1793 01:31:28,401 --> 01:31:32,917 But indeed there are so many interesting historical Westerns... 1794 01:31:33,282 --> 01:31:37,434 ...in which they pay very, very close attention to detail... 1795 01:31:37,787 --> 01:31:43,419 ...and then are completely wrong in all the great aspects of the story... 1796 01:31:43,834 --> 01:31:46,109 ...completely wrong in the characterisations. 1797 01:31:47,254 --> 01:31:49,085 But, boy, they have those buttons right. 1798 01:31:49,339 --> 01:31:52,217 Right. But sometimes one should say that doesn't matter. 1799 01:31:52,508 --> 01:31:55,500 That the film is... You know, the film stands on its own. 1800 01:31:55,803 --> 01:31:57,122 No, indeed. 1801 01:31:57,347 --> 01:32:00,419 You know, we did that big Custer exhibit at the Autry a decade ago... 1802 01:32:00,725 --> 01:32:04,195 ...and much of it was on Custer in popular culture. 1803 01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:08,149 And my favourite Custer film is John Ford's Fort Apache... 1804 01:32:08,483 --> 01:32:13,876 ...in which the cavalry is set in Arizona, everyone has a different name... 1805 01:32:14,323 --> 01:32:17,520 ...you know, they're wiped out by Apaches... 1806 01:32:17,825 --> 01:32:22,296 ...but it really gets to the heart of the Custer story and what Custer was. 1807 01:32:22,663 --> 01:32:26,941 Why his last stand was so important to Americans in a way that accurate films... 1808 01:32:27,293 --> 01:32:28,965 Right, and one could say that... 1809 01:32:29,211 --> 01:32:32,442 ...about the various Tombstone movies and Wyatt Earp movies as well. 1810 01:32:32,757 --> 01:32:36,113 No offence to Lawrence Kasdan's Wyatt Earp... 1811 01:32:36,427 --> 01:32:43,026 ...but I think My Darling Clementine is a brilliant film. 1812 01:32:44,267 --> 01:32:47,020 Has nothing to do with anything that may or may not have happened... 1813 01:32:47,312 --> 01:32:50,031 ...at the O.K. Corral, much less set anywhere near Tombstone... 1814 01:32:50,316 --> 01:32:52,147 ...but it's still a brilliant and powerful film. 1815 01:32:52,401 --> 01:32:55,757 Kasdan and Costner's Wyatt Earp is weighted down by history, in fact. 1816 01:32:56,071 --> 01:32:58,301 It's trying to be too close to what happened. 1817 01:32:58,574 --> 01:33:01,964 Absolutely. In fact, the film that Frank just worked on, The Alamo... 1818 01:33:02,286 --> 01:33:03,958 ...I think suffers from that as well. 1819 01:33:04,204 --> 01:33:07,514 It's just weighted down by the history, which gets in the way of storytelling. 1820 01:33:07,833 --> 01:33:10,711 - It suffers from nothing, it's great. - It is great. It's a wonderful film. 1821 01:33:11,002 --> 01:33:14,472 I do think it is... I mean, to take a tour of the Alamo today... 1822 01:33:14,797 --> 01:33:17,834 ...is still a fascinating thing, if only because it's one of the few sites... 1823 01:33:18,134 --> 01:33:20,568 I haven't been there for a few years, but that is... 1824 01:33:20,845 --> 01:33:25,635 Hasn't been reconstructed or revised in its historical interpretation. 1825 01:33:26,017 --> 01:33:29,771 - Not very much. - That was taken care of by history. 1826 01:33:30,147 --> 01:33:32,217 Not very much at all. 1827 01:33:35,359 --> 01:33:39,272 And here's the fire, which is ironic because, of course... 1828 01:33:39,613 --> 01:33:43,049 ...the place really does burn down later. It's like: 1829 01:33:47,121 --> 01:33:50,557 I wonder if these stories from the past, the Alamo, Custer's Last Stand... 1830 01:33:50,875 --> 01:33:54,550 ...again, won't have a new relevance in our own time. 1831 01:33:54,879 --> 01:33:56,358 In the revenge. 1832 01:33:57,631 --> 01:34:03,069 And this idea of the last stand and of, you know, people dying for freedom... 1833 01:34:03,469 --> 01:34:05,266 ...I think, works for us in a way... 1834 01:34:05,513 --> 01:34:09,028 ...that it didn't when this movie was made. 1835 01:34:09,351 --> 01:34:12,787 This is another great example of how Westerns... 1836 01:34:13,105 --> 01:34:16,734 More modern Westerns seem to be a bit more timid, oddly enough... 1837 01:34:17,067 --> 01:34:19,661 ...in that they take the kid... 1838 01:34:19,945 --> 01:34:22,300 ...kidnap him for God knows what reason... 1839 01:34:22,573 --> 01:34:24,450 ...whereas in Once Upon a Time in the West... 1840 01:34:24,700 --> 01:34:27,373 ...Sergio Leone just shoots him, you know? 1841 01:34:27,660 --> 01:34:29,651 Well, that's a wonderful scene in that film... 1842 01:34:29,912 --> 01:34:32,745 ...in which he shorthands who, exactly, Henry Fonda is... 1843 01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:35,952 ...and gets you over your own idea of who Henry Fonda is. 1844 01:34:36,252 --> 01:34:38,720 And that takes care of that, and we know where we are. 1845 01:34:39,046 --> 01:34:41,879 But in this, one of the bad guys is about to shoot the kid... 1846 01:34:42,174 --> 01:34:44,529 ...and they're too soft-hearted to do it, so they just... 1847 01:34:44,802 --> 01:34:48,351 They take him off only because it's gonna cause trouble later. 1848 01:34:49,224 --> 01:34:52,216 Well, again, you've gotta have a plotline. 1849 01:34:52,519 --> 01:34:54,157 You would think a town this substantial... 1850 01:34:54,395 --> 01:34:56,989 ...would have a little fire truck that could come and... 1851 01:34:57,273 --> 01:34:59,741 One of those fire engines. That would've been a big scene to do. 1852 01:35:00,025 --> 01:35:02,459 - Spent all the money on the saloon. - Yeah. 1853 01:35:03,445 --> 01:35:04,798 I don't think this is gonna work. 1854 01:35:05,030 --> 01:35:06,941 I don't think the fire brigade's gonna save this. 1855 01:35:07,199 --> 01:35:11,158 That just shows us, again, how pragmatic Brian Dennehy is. 1856 01:35:11,495 --> 01:35:14,055 - He's not even trying. - No. He just walks up, "Give it up." 1857 01:35:16,417 --> 01:35:20,330 Fire, yeah. And, of course, to be a historian again... 1858 01:35:20,670 --> 01:35:23,742 ...fire was, of course, a great problem in Western communities. 1859 01:35:24,048 --> 01:35:26,562 - Everything was built of wood. - Not just Western, everywhere. 1860 01:35:26,843 --> 01:35:28,276 But in the West in particular. 1861 01:35:28,512 --> 01:35:31,265 At least back in the East, they did have firefighting equipment. 1862 01:35:31,557 --> 01:35:34,674 But, of course, it's why we have things like the Great Chicago Fire. 1863 01:35:34,977 --> 01:35:36,808 I think also, obviously, for the West... 1864 01:35:37,062 --> 01:35:41,852 ...the aridity of much of the West makes fires that much more dangerous. 1865 01:35:42,234 --> 01:35:44,065 A problem that continues through to the present. 1866 01:35:44,319 --> 01:35:47,277 And people are lighting everything with fire. 1867 01:35:47,571 --> 01:35:50,039 People are keeping warm with fire. People are cooking with fire. 1868 01:35:50,324 --> 01:35:52,235 And so it's a lot of problems. 1869 01:35:52,493 --> 01:35:53,846 And so fire was something... 1870 01:35:54,078 --> 01:35:55,875 ...everyone lived with and everyone feared. 1871 01:35:56,122 --> 01:35:59,273 And a tinderbox environment with little water... 1872 01:35:59,583 --> 01:36:01,096 ...to keep things... - Right. 1873 01:36:01,335 --> 01:36:03,974 Although one of the greatest fires of the 19th century, of course... 1874 01:36:04,255 --> 01:36:05,404 ...was up in Wisconsin. 1875 01:36:05,631 --> 01:36:08,429 That fire that killed hundreds and hundreds of people... 1876 01:36:08,718 --> 01:36:10,993 ...right almost at the time of the Great Chicago Fire... 1877 01:36:11,263 --> 01:36:15,336 ...and is kind of overlooked because Chicago gets all the attention. 1878 01:36:15,683 --> 01:36:17,878 But every community in the West was touched by fire. 1879 01:36:18,143 --> 01:36:20,293 Really was a problem. And, of course, is again today. 1880 01:36:20,562 --> 01:36:24,441 Now it's very relevant mainly because communities are building out into... 1881 01:36:24,775 --> 01:36:28,290 Places just like we're seeing this filming going on. 1882 01:36:28,612 --> 01:36:31,604 We've had such a dry period in the West in the last five years... 1883 01:36:31,907 --> 01:36:33,260 ...it's just been unbelievable. 1884 01:36:33,492 --> 01:36:35,687 It's just lucky for the rest of the town of Silverado... 1885 01:36:35,953 --> 01:36:40,071 ...that this one building seems to be set off from the rest of the town. 1886 01:36:40,414 --> 01:36:43,724 And that is because the building is, of course, an entirely different set. 1887 01:36:44,043 --> 01:36:47,592 No, it's somewhere else entirely. That's why they're shooting around it. 1888 01:36:47,923 --> 01:36:49,197 So that works very well for them. 1889 01:36:49,424 --> 01:36:51,176 And, no, it's actually, yeah... 1890 01:36:51,426 --> 01:36:55,180 Because I think, again, it's not just one building that usually burns... 1891 01:36:55,514 --> 01:36:58,745 ...many go when... - Oh, yes, everything goes. 1892 01:37:03,230 --> 01:37:05,744 Look at those hats, I mean... I'm on hats again. 1893 01:37:06,023 --> 01:37:10,574 Is that feathers on his hat? Is that what he's got? Brian Dennehy. 1894 01:37:12,404 --> 01:37:13,917 Looks like it. 1895 01:37:14,156 --> 01:37:16,795 - Now we have... - He's a bit of a fop. 1896 01:37:17,910 --> 01:37:21,505 By the way, both those characters, of course, had beards... 1897 01:37:21,830 --> 01:37:24,390 ...and in the 19th century, after the Civil War... 1898 01:37:24,667 --> 01:37:26,146 ...beards were in style. 1899 01:37:26,378 --> 01:37:29,256 If you wanna talk about historicity in Westerns... 1900 01:37:29,547 --> 01:37:32,698 ...watching hair and watching beards is important. 1901 01:37:33,008 --> 01:37:39,402 At the time of the Alamo, for instance, hardly anyone would've had a beard... 1902 01:37:39,848 --> 01:37:44,558 ...and no one would have had, at least on the American side, a moustache. 1903 01:37:44,937 --> 01:37:48,691 That would've been highly unusual, in terms of style. 1904 01:37:49,024 --> 01:37:51,902 Few people would've had really long hair by that time. 1905 01:37:52,194 --> 01:37:54,833 Hair was starting to get short. 1906 01:37:55,113 --> 01:37:57,866 You'd have to be older, you'd have to be kind of a throwback... 1907 01:37:58,158 --> 01:38:02,470 ...to the revolutionary generation, like Davy Crockett was... 1908 01:38:02,828 --> 01:38:05,706 ...to be wearing your long hair. Or be identified as a plainsman. 1909 01:38:05,999 --> 01:38:09,435 I mean, a kind of affected Western character. 1910 01:38:09,753 --> 01:38:11,823 You're really doing it for style. 1911 01:38:12,088 --> 01:38:16,161 Hair in the late 19th century would've been, of course, quite short... 1912 01:38:16,509 --> 01:38:17,783 ...and, again, if... 1913 01:38:18,011 --> 01:38:20,206 Except for those handful of very flamboyant characters. 1914 01:38:20,472 --> 01:38:23,828 If you're Buffalo Bill or you're Wild Bill Hickok or you're Custer... 1915 01:38:24,142 --> 01:38:26,702 ...you're wearing it for effect. I mean, it's totally a statement. 1916 01:38:26,977 --> 01:38:28,774 Bringing your press agent along with you. 1917 01:38:29,021 --> 01:38:31,854 Hopefully people would notice. 1918 01:38:32,149 --> 01:38:33,662 Most people would have had short hair. 1919 01:38:33,901 --> 01:38:36,131 But beards indeed would have been quite prevalent... 1920 01:38:36,403 --> 01:38:38,598 ...because after the Civil War and after Lincoln... 1921 01:38:38,906 --> 01:38:41,466 ...everybody had a beard for a long time. 1922 01:38:41,742 --> 01:38:45,974 And the first presidents often set the style. I'm trying to think... 1923 01:38:46,331 --> 01:38:48,765 I believe the first president after the... 1924 01:38:49,042 --> 01:38:50,362 The first president after the Civil War without a beard... 1925 01:38:50,418 --> 01:38:51,328 The first president after the Civil War without a beard... 1926 01:38:51,544 --> 01:38:54,217 ...would've been Grover Cleveland, but he had a moustache. 1927 01:38:54,504 --> 01:38:56,415 And the first president without any facial hair... 1928 01:38:56,673 --> 01:38:57,992 ...would've been William McKinley. 1929 01:38:58,216 --> 01:39:02,653 - You've got to go to 1900. Almost 1900. - Yeah, almost 1900. 1930 01:39:03,055 --> 01:39:07,446 And now, of course, our leaders are terrified of any facial hair whatsoever. 1931 01:39:07,851 --> 01:39:11,207 That's just... After Thomas Dewey lost to Truman... 1932 01:39:11,521 --> 01:39:14,160 ...no facial hair anymore. - Well, Al Gore grew a beard... 1933 01:39:14,441 --> 01:39:16,432 - After. ...and was widely ridiculed. 1934 01:39:16,693 --> 01:39:20,606 Well, he was having some issues, I think, some self-identification issues. 1935 01:39:20,946 --> 01:39:23,460 That's why I grew a beard. 1936 01:39:23,741 --> 01:39:27,290 I thought it was to cover the weak chin. I was unclear on that. I'm sorry. 1937 01:39:27,621 --> 01:39:29,657 - No. - Oh, that's gotta hurt. 1938 01:39:30,623 --> 01:39:32,181 That's hurt more. 1939 01:39:40,467 --> 01:39:43,425 I've always wondered how you throw a knife and actually hit somebody. 1940 01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:45,711 I mean, that's gotta be... 1941 01:39:45,971 --> 01:39:49,486 He's real good at it, as we will see. 1942 01:39:49,808 --> 01:39:52,880 I also often watch the maps and the photographs on the... 1943 01:39:53,186 --> 01:39:55,256 Oh, look at that! See, more knives. That's great. 1944 01:39:55,522 --> 01:39:56,796 Real Jim Bowie stuff. 1945 01:39:57,024 --> 01:39:59,254 There's the sort of Magnificent Seven moment, you know. 1946 01:39:59,526 --> 01:40:01,164 That's right. That's exactly the character. 1947 01:40:01,403 --> 01:40:05,396 James Coburn is so wonderful in that movie. 1948 01:40:05,742 --> 01:40:09,018 And Elmer Bernstein just died, who did that score. 1949 01:40:09,328 --> 01:40:12,843 That's such an identifiable score. 1950 01:40:13,165 --> 01:40:15,076 But those characters were so great in that movie. 1951 01:40:15,333 --> 01:40:16,846 That's why it's a fabulous Western. 1952 01:40:18,253 --> 01:40:21,848 And this plays off that with its cast. A very colourful cast of characters. 1953 01:40:23,925 --> 01:40:26,393 And, again, the same basic thematic construct... 1954 01:40:26,678 --> 01:40:30,990 ...of these very sort of talented gunmen, all with a past... 1955 01:40:31,349 --> 01:40:33,499 ...have to come to the rescue of the weak. 1956 01:40:33,768 --> 01:40:36,123 Yeah, and Magnificent Seven is a great Western... 1957 01:40:36,396 --> 01:40:39,354 ...and has no more connection to the real West than this does. 1958 01:40:39,648 --> 01:40:41,286 Well, based, as it is, on a Japanese film. 1959 01:40:41,525 --> 01:40:43,038 Yeah, of course. Yeah. 1960 01:40:45,947 --> 01:40:48,142 But that's because... 1961 01:40:48,408 --> 01:40:51,878 It works because the characters are so great and the story is great. 1962 01:40:52,203 --> 01:40:54,876 And the West works, I think, for all these films... 1963 01:40:55,164 --> 01:40:57,962 ...because of the setting it provides, which is this exotic. 1964 01:40:58,251 --> 01:40:59,525 You mentioned Brigadoon earlier. 1965 01:40:59,752 --> 01:41:03,142 I mean, it really is that, kind of, strange never-never land... 1966 01:41:03,464 --> 01:41:05,932 ...where we can play out these morality tales... 1967 01:41:06,216 --> 01:41:09,765 ...and have these colourful characters who couldn't exist anywhere else. 1968 01:41:10,137 --> 01:41:13,129 You know, the urban setting provides the same sort of thing... 1969 01:41:13,432 --> 01:41:16,469 ...but in a very different way. Two different Americas. 1970 01:41:16,768 --> 01:41:20,920 It's interesting, as you said. We had The Alamo based on a real... 1971 01:41:21,273 --> 01:41:26,063 ...and there are various... Obviously, the Tombstone movies... 1972 01:41:26,445 --> 01:41:29,118 ...that base on, at least, an incident in the Western past... 1973 01:41:29,407 --> 01:41:33,082 ...but otherwise most Westerns are set in this sort of mythic space... 1974 01:41:33,410 --> 01:41:36,561 ...that doesn't exist in any specific time or place... 1975 01:41:36,913 --> 01:41:39,711 ...or based on any specific incident. And when they do... 1976 01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:42,309 I guess it's striking to me, for example, and maybe... 1977 01:41:42,585 --> 01:41:45,702 ...someone who's connected to the studios can speak to this... 1978 01:41:46,047 --> 01:41:49,437 ...but why no major Lewis and Clark film is under development now... 1979 01:41:49,759 --> 01:41:54,469 ...given all of the sort of fascination with Lewis and Clark in this moment. 1980 01:41:54,848 --> 01:41:57,920 And with the bicentennial... I don't know of any feature that's being developed. 1981 01:41:58,225 --> 01:42:00,455 There's no story. That's the problem with Lewis and Clark. 1982 01:42:00,727 --> 01:42:02,319 - They did do a movie. - The Far Horizons. 1983 01:42:02,563 --> 01:42:04,076 With Fred MacMurray and Charlton Heston. 1984 01:42:04,315 --> 01:42:06,909 Donna Reed as Sacagawea. 1985 01:42:07,235 --> 01:42:09,385 She didn't have her beads on in that movie. 1986 01:42:09,696 --> 01:42:12,256 I mean, the pearls that she wears in the Donna Reed TV show. 1987 01:42:12,532 --> 01:42:14,887 But, you know, it's a trip. 1988 01:42:15,159 --> 01:42:16,797 It's a trip, but nothing happens. 1989 01:42:17,036 --> 01:42:18,230 - Well... - You know, and so... 1990 01:42:18,454 --> 01:42:21,366 They are making, though, Lewis and Clark: The Musical... 1991 01:42:21,666 --> 01:42:23,099 ...which is they're... We actually... 1992 01:42:23,333 --> 01:42:25,847 Okay, you can sing, you can sing on the trip, you know. 1993 01:42:26,253 --> 01:42:29,165 Sacagawea sings her great song about going to see the whale, I mean... 1994 01:42:29,464 --> 01:42:30,943 Well, there you go. 1995 01:42:31,174 --> 01:42:32,846 Lewis and Clark: The Opera has opened. 1996 01:42:33,093 --> 01:42:36,005 Why can you have Lewis and Clark: The Opera, Lewis and Clark: The Musical... 1997 01:42:36,304 --> 01:42:38,022 ...but not Lewis and Clark: The Movie? 1998 01:42:38,265 --> 01:42:41,223 You know, I just don't think the journey works that well. 1999 01:42:41,518 --> 01:42:43,748 And they made a National Geographic documentary... 2000 01:42:44,021 --> 01:42:46,660 Since I'm making documentaries now, I pay close attention to these. 2001 01:42:46,941 --> 01:42:48,260 I think it's a tough story. 2002 01:42:48,484 --> 01:42:50,520 And the majestic scenics carry the IMAX. 2003 01:42:50,777 --> 01:42:52,096 Swooping kind of shot. 2004 01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:54,629 That kind of carries it, but otherwise there's no conflict. 2005 01:42:54,906 --> 01:42:57,101 Now here's a great movie moment coming up. 2006 01:42:57,367 --> 01:42:58,436 All right, pay attention. 2007 01:42:58,660 --> 01:43:01,220 He's gravely wounded in his head... 2008 01:43:01,496 --> 01:43:04,454 ...but now that he knows his brother and his nephew have been captured... 2009 01:43:04,749 --> 01:43:06,626 ...off comes the bandage. 2010 01:43:06,876 --> 01:43:09,231 Screw this, I'm putting on my cowboy hat. 2011 01:43:09,504 --> 01:43:13,099 That's right, this is... This is the buckle on the gun-belt. 2012 01:43:13,424 --> 01:43:14,937 - I'm not hurt anymore. - It's a miracle! 2013 01:43:15,176 --> 01:43:16,529 - Yeah. - It's a miracle, yeah. 2014 01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:18,352 Or he just has to work through the pain. 2015 01:43:18,595 --> 01:43:21,189 I think the historical Western, though, back to Lewis and Clark... 2016 01:43:21,473 --> 01:43:23,111 ...the historical Western is a tough sell. 2017 01:43:23,351 --> 01:43:24,909 The failure of The Alamo recently... 2018 01:43:25,144 --> 01:43:26,941 ...not as a film, of course... - Commercially. 2019 01:43:27,188 --> 01:43:30,544 But as a commercial product, has really damaged the prospects... 2020 01:43:30,858 --> 01:43:33,167 ...for historical Westerns. 2021 01:43:33,444 --> 01:43:36,516 Although The Missing also was a disappointment for the studios... 2022 01:43:36,822 --> 01:43:39,541 ...interestingly, the two successful Westerns of the last year... 2023 01:43:39,825 --> 01:43:42,293 ...have been Hidalgo, which is complete fantasy... 2024 01:43:42,577 --> 01:43:44,329 Made $70 million. 2025 01:43:44,579 --> 01:43:49,573 I mean, it wasn't a blockbuster but it didn't make 20. 2026 01:43:50,126 --> 01:43:53,004 And then, of course, Open Range... 2027 01:43:53,296 --> 01:43:55,651 ...which also did about the same amount of business. 2028 01:43:55,924 --> 01:43:58,518 Right. These are period... But they're not based on... 2029 01:43:58,802 --> 01:44:04,434 I'm talking about really people trying to do Western history as film. 2030 01:44:04,850 --> 01:44:07,728 Well, that's my point, in fact. They made more money... 2031 01:44:08,020 --> 01:44:09,851 ...than the historical Westerns... 2032 01:44:10,104 --> 01:44:12,937 ...or even The Missing, which has a historical basis. 2033 01:44:13,316 --> 01:44:16,035 And, of course, part of the problem for The Alamo... 2034 01:44:16,319 --> 01:44:19,709 ...was that in our modern day... 2035 01:44:20,031 --> 01:44:25,742 ...you cannot make the villains evil anymore. 2036 01:44:26,162 --> 01:44:29,393 It's why Lord of the Rings worked so magnificently. 2037 01:44:29,749 --> 01:44:34,186 You need to cheer at the end. And in The Alamo, since we have to... 2038 01:44:34,545 --> 01:44:38,538 ...now be much more sensitive to both the causes of the Texas revolution... 2039 01:44:38,882 --> 01:44:42,591 ...why the men are fighting there, and then to the Mexican protagonists... 2040 01:44:42,929 --> 01:44:45,363 ...you've got no great evil that you're fighting. 2041 01:44:45,640 --> 01:44:47,232 And it was actually a problem... 2042 01:44:47,475 --> 01:44:50,353 ...with John Wayne's 1960 Alamo movie as well. 2043 01:44:50,645 --> 01:44:53,405 He was also was very careful in his portrayal of the Mexicans and so... 2044 01:44:53,522 --> 01:44:56,116 He was also was very careful in his portrayal of the Mexicans and so... 2045 01:44:56,400 --> 01:44:58,960 You don't know anything about the Mexicans in that movie. 2046 01:44:59,236 --> 01:45:00,589 - You don't hate them enough. - Yeah. 2047 01:45:00,821 --> 01:45:03,016 That's what you've got to do to make that film work... 2048 01:45:03,281 --> 01:45:05,841 ...and to make the ending of it work, and so... 2049 01:45:06,117 --> 01:45:08,711 And that's why when you make a film like this... 2050 01:45:08,995 --> 01:45:12,226 ...you can have an entire army of bad guys... 2051 01:45:12,540 --> 01:45:15,976 ...and there's no ameliorating circumstance... 2052 01:45:16,294 --> 01:45:17,647 ...about how bad these guys are. 2053 01:45:17,879 --> 01:45:20,393 - Don't have to explain away anything. - So let's shoot them all. 2054 01:45:20,715 --> 01:45:21,989 You don't have to explain it. 2055 01:45:22,217 --> 01:45:24,128 That's the problem with the historical Westerns. 2056 01:45:24,386 --> 01:45:26,502 Also why it's tough to do Indian wars movies anymore. 2057 01:45:26,764 --> 01:45:30,154 Other than converting it in a Dances With Wolves way. 2058 01:45:30,475 --> 01:45:32,431 - Absolutely. - You get away with that more easily. 2059 01:45:32,685 --> 01:45:35,438 Still that was a grand boys adventure story, when you think about it. 2060 01:45:35,730 --> 01:45:38,085 Dances With Wolves was as traditional as can be. 2061 01:45:38,524 --> 01:45:40,196 You know, it's The Last of the Mohicans. 2062 01:45:40,443 --> 01:45:42,434 It is inverted, and the Indians are the heroes... 2063 01:45:42,695 --> 01:45:44,970 ...but Indians are the heroes in The Last of the Mohicans. 2064 01:45:45,239 --> 01:45:46,638 Good Indians, bad Indians. 2065 01:45:46,866 --> 01:45:50,700 In fact, the bad Indian is the same character, Wes Studi, in both films. 2066 01:45:51,829 --> 01:45:54,423 Interestingly, Michael Blake, who I got to know pretty well... 2067 01:45:54,706 --> 01:45:58,335 ...when I was doing the Custer exhibit for the Autry... 2068 01:45:58,668 --> 01:46:01,865 ...he had written a novel on Custer. 2069 01:46:02,173 --> 01:46:04,209 That's the novel he wrote after Dances With Wolves. 2070 01:46:04,467 --> 01:46:06,617 He'd just come off the Oscar with Dances With Wolves... 2071 01:46:06,886 --> 01:46:08,922 ...and he had read some of my stuff on Custer... 2072 01:46:09,180 --> 01:46:12,570 ...and so we got together and became friends. 2073 01:46:12,892 --> 01:46:16,362 He wrote this great Custer novel, and Custer became a hero... 2074 01:46:16,687 --> 01:46:19,599 ...because he was fascinated by the complexity of Custer. 2075 01:46:20,065 --> 01:46:21,578 And then he couldn't get it made... 2076 01:46:21,816 --> 01:46:24,046 ...although Oliver Stone was gonna make it at one time... 2077 01:46:24,319 --> 01:46:26,469 ...and others were gonna make it, and it never happened. 2078 01:46:26,779 --> 01:46:30,897 I wonder, though, if, given the current climate... 2079 01:46:31,242 --> 01:46:34,562 ...whether doing a film on the military, with a heroic view of the military... 2080 01:46:34,704 --> 01:46:36,137 ...whether doing a film on the military, with a heroic view of the military... 2081 01:46:36,372 --> 01:46:38,363 ...of the cavalry again, would be possible now. 2082 01:46:38,624 --> 01:46:40,535 I think it would be. I think you'd have to deal... 2083 01:46:40,836 --> 01:46:42,474 You might not have Indians as villains. 2084 01:46:42,713 --> 01:46:46,308 You might actually show cavalry or the military playing that difficult role... 2085 01:46:46,633 --> 01:46:48,863 ...trying to keep the peace between Indians... 2086 01:46:49,135 --> 01:46:50,966 ...and, at the same time, a settler culture... 2087 01:46:51,220 --> 01:46:53,256 ...that often created more trouble for them... 2088 01:46:53,556 --> 01:46:56,593 ...than, you know, the local Indians might. 2089 01:46:56,892 --> 01:47:01,522 But being asked to put down Indians, regardless of what Indians have done. 2090 01:47:01,897 --> 01:47:04,127 Frankly, that's exactly the plotline in Fort Apache... 2091 01:47:04,400 --> 01:47:05,913 ...the best Custer film ever made... 2092 01:47:06,152 --> 01:47:08,950 ...which is the Indians are very heroic, and they are... 2093 01:47:09,238 --> 01:47:10,717 The cavalry still has to fight them. 2094 01:47:10,990 --> 01:47:12,742 And the cavalry is still incredibly heroic. 2095 01:47:13,033 --> 01:47:17,151 And so you can have it both ways because that's the way it was. 2096 01:47:17,495 --> 01:47:21,454 What happened to the Western in the '60s and '70s... 2097 01:47:21,834 --> 01:47:25,110 ...is that they had to make the cavalry into these demonic villains... 2098 01:47:25,421 --> 01:47:26,820 ...and that didn't work for people. 2099 01:47:27,047 --> 01:47:28,685 We were talking about How the West Was Won. 2100 01:47:28,924 --> 01:47:30,721 Here we go. It's the cattle stampede. 2101 01:47:30,968 --> 01:47:32,686 This is straight out of that. 2102 01:47:32,928 --> 01:47:34,566 Absolutely. That's gotta hurt! 2103 01:47:36,056 --> 01:47:37,171 And again, animals. 2104 01:47:37,391 --> 01:47:41,020 We're back to our thematic construct of animals in the Western. 2105 01:47:46,357 --> 01:47:48,587 It is exactly right out of How the West Was Won. 2106 01:47:48,860 --> 01:47:50,213 Here they come, yes. 2107 01:47:50,444 --> 01:47:56,235 Although those are not very authentic cattle for the period. 2108 01:47:57,451 --> 01:48:00,363 I wonder where they got that huge herd. Look at that. 2109 01:48:03,500 --> 01:48:04,899 He's up there with that gun again. 2110 01:48:07,962 --> 01:48:10,954 Yeah, that's a shot right out of How the West Was Won. 2111 01:48:13,718 --> 01:48:16,357 Knocking down the fences. 2112 01:48:16,679 --> 01:48:18,795 That's a tough place to put the camera. 2113 01:48:19,890 --> 01:48:23,519 Well, Frank knows that. He knows how that movie magic takes place. 2114 01:48:25,437 --> 01:48:27,553 I know, but I'm not saying. 2115 01:48:30,609 --> 01:48:32,759 And again, we're back out at that ranch set... 2116 01:48:33,069 --> 01:48:37,620 ...that is a little distance from the actual set of the town. 2117 01:48:39,451 --> 01:48:40,645 Should've watched closer. 2118 01:48:40,869 --> 01:48:44,066 I wonder if the guy who killed the little piggy got trampled by the cows. 2119 01:48:44,373 --> 01:48:46,762 - That would have been... - That would have been very poignant. 2120 01:48:47,042 --> 01:48:49,237 - Better still if he'd been fed to the pigs. - Yeah. 2121 01:48:49,503 --> 01:48:51,221 Let them get their revenge. 2122 01:48:51,463 --> 01:48:53,738 The cows and the pigs have communicated... 2123 01:48:54,007 --> 01:48:56,043 ...and it's kind of like Animal Farm, I guess. 2124 01:48:56,301 --> 01:48:58,974 By the way, wasn't he just flat on his back... 2125 01:48:59,262 --> 01:49:03,494 ...with 14 broken ribs and a major skull fracture? I mean... 2126 01:49:03,891 --> 01:49:07,201 He took off the bandage off his head and he's fine. 2127 01:49:07,561 --> 01:49:10,553 I sense that our one-eyed friend is not gonna make it through this scene. 2128 01:49:10,898 --> 01:49:12,172 Surely, you're mistaken. 2129 01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:14,960 I'm not mistaken, and please don't call me Shirley. 2130 01:49:16,195 --> 01:49:18,425 But he's got the kid as a hostage so... 2131 01:49:18,739 --> 01:49:21,458 I had dinner with David Zucker last night, so I just cribbed his line. 2132 01:49:21,743 --> 01:49:23,176 - I understand. - Yeah. 2133 01:49:25,955 --> 01:49:29,345 Which reminds me, by the way, folks who want to... 2134 01:49:29,667 --> 01:49:31,544 ...listen to DVD commentary... 2135 01:49:31,835 --> 01:49:34,827 ...can catch me playing the doctor delivering O.J. Simpson's baby... 2136 01:49:35,130 --> 01:49:37,325 ...in the final reel of Nak ed Gun 331/3. 2137 01:49:37,591 --> 01:49:39,900 And in the DVD commentary... 2138 01:49:40,219 --> 01:49:43,336 ...David Zucker says to his producer, "Oh, look, it's Hutton." 2139 01:49:43,681 --> 01:49:45,353 And the producer goes: 2140 01:49:45,599 --> 01:49:48,033 "Oh, yeah, he was writing that book on Davy Crockett. 2141 01:49:48,310 --> 01:49:49,629 Did he ever get that book done?" 2142 01:49:49,853 --> 01:49:52,367 Zucker goes, " No, and he's never gonna get that book done." 2143 01:49:52,647 --> 01:49:55,286 That's great, isn't that great? Your friends looking out for you. 2144 01:49:55,566 --> 01:49:57,921 And now that news is on two different DVD titles. 2145 01:49:58,194 --> 01:50:01,630 I see. That probably wasn't smart. 2146 01:50:02,574 --> 01:50:04,690 They rescued the kid. 2147 01:50:05,911 --> 01:50:09,426 - Yeah, didn't see that coming. - Yeah, and it's just... 2148 01:50:09,748 --> 01:50:10,508 And the kid's crying. 2149 01:50:10,540 --> 01:50:12,292 And the kid's crying. 2150 01:50:14,544 --> 01:50:17,183 And the shootout in the barn with the horses rearing. 2151 01:50:22,510 --> 01:50:25,627 Animals are an intrinsic part of this movie. I hadn't noticed that before. 2152 01:50:25,971 --> 01:50:28,280 I wonder what the body count actually is in this movie. 2153 01:50:30,476 --> 01:50:34,310 I mean, probably more people than were killed in all of New Mexico in... 2154 01:50:34,688 --> 01:50:36,838 It's certainly in the dozens. 2155 01:50:39,361 --> 01:50:40,635 But people die well... 2156 01:50:40,862 --> 01:50:44,696 ...in the sense that they don't die pain... They die quickly. There's not... 2157 01:50:45,032 --> 01:50:48,308 There's neither, in sort of those '60s Westerns... 2158 01:50:48,619 --> 01:50:50,371 ...where blood's spurting all over the place. 2159 01:50:50,621 --> 01:50:53,135 - We don't get any of that here. - It's clean. 2160 01:50:54,583 --> 01:50:58,098 Well, I mean, this movie is not attempting any realism here. 2161 01:50:58,420 --> 01:51:01,856 I mean, we are really engaging in fantasy, and so, yeah, why do that? 2162 01:51:02,174 --> 01:51:05,086 I mean that would just be gratuitous, to have lots of blood and gore. 2163 01:51:05,427 --> 01:51:07,543 So you do see a little red spot and that's enough. 2164 01:51:07,804 --> 01:51:10,034 Establishes your point. 2165 01:51:13,601 --> 01:51:15,910 He's doing a lot of this, he's doing all this... 2166 01:51:16,812 --> 01:51:19,770 Look at that. I mean, he's doing all this Robin Hood kind of stuff. 2167 01:51:20,067 --> 01:51:21,864 Of course, then he's gonna play Robin Hood. 2168 01:51:23,028 --> 01:51:26,225 This means that Kasdan really did feel bad about Big Chill... 2169 01:51:26,531 --> 01:51:28,010 ...and cutting him out of Big Chill... 2170 01:51:28,241 --> 01:51:30,072 ...and really was giving him a star turn here. 2171 01:51:30,327 --> 01:51:32,397 And he's making every bit that he can out of it. 2172 01:51:32,662 --> 01:51:35,779 That pinto pony helps a lot too. That's a good-looking horse. 2173 01:51:36,416 --> 01:51:39,692 Oh, he's going to ride bareback. Jeez. That's too much. 2174 01:51:40,044 --> 01:51:41,716 The pearl-handled pistols are a nice touch. 2175 01:51:41,962 --> 01:51:43,600 This guy's going to die hard. 2176 01:51:51,305 --> 01:51:52,818 He just said, "Let's get out of here." 2177 01:51:53,057 --> 01:51:56,129 I've read that that is the line that appears in more movies... 2178 01:51:56,435 --> 01:52:00,030 ...than any other single line in the history of the cinema. 2179 01:52:00,356 --> 01:52:01,345 Don't know if it's true... 2180 01:52:01,566 --> 01:52:03,204 Did you read that in one of your own books? 2181 01:52:03,443 --> 01:52:06,196 I read that in one of my own books. I never lie and I'm always right. 2182 01:52:06,487 --> 01:52:07,715 And the footnote is? 2183 01:52:07,946 --> 01:52:09,857 What about, "They went thataway." Is that? 2184 01:52:10,324 --> 01:52:13,396 I don't think you can find more than two movies that actually say that. 2185 01:52:13,702 --> 01:52:14,817 There he goes. 2186 01:52:15,037 --> 01:52:16,755 Danny Glover got him. He goes over the wall. 2187 01:52:16,997 --> 01:52:18,555 It's very nice. 2188 01:52:19,041 --> 01:52:21,111 - That is very difficult to ride bareback. - And shoot. 2189 01:52:21,376 --> 01:52:24,527 That really is Kevin Costner riding bareback and shooting... 2190 01:52:24,838 --> 01:52:27,830 ...and riding up on the porch and riding off the porch. 2191 01:52:29,092 --> 01:52:31,048 That is very nice. 2192 01:52:32,303 --> 01:52:33,338 "Hi, guys." 2193 01:52:33,554 --> 01:52:36,273 And the fringe is there. The fringe is a nice touch too. 2194 01:52:36,557 --> 01:52:39,947 Yeah, no, he's really giving him the star treatment here. 2195 01:52:40,312 --> 01:52:44,225 What's Costner's next film after this? Because he goes on to be a superstar. 2196 01:52:44,566 --> 01:52:47,842 His next one was No Way Out, with Gene Hackman and Sean Young. 2197 01:52:48,153 --> 01:52:50,508 It was a remake of a John Farrow film... 2198 01:52:50,780 --> 01:52:53,340 ...starring Ray Milland and Charles Laughton... 2199 01:52:53,617 --> 01:52:54,970 ...called The Big Clock. 2200 01:52:55,201 --> 01:52:59,160 The Big Clock and No Way Out are movies about a man... 2201 01:52:59,538 --> 01:53:03,451 ...who is forced to investigate a murder that he has been accused of. 2202 01:53:03,917 --> 01:53:08,786 And no one knows that he is allegedly the one who did it... 2203 01:53:09,173 --> 01:53:11,892 ...and he's got to investigate it before anybody finds out. 2204 01:53:17,765 --> 01:53:20,882 See, now, what guy puts out his good crystal out on the street? 2205 01:53:21,185 --> 01:53:23,335 Especially... He must know that trouble's a-brewing. 2206 01:53:23,604 --> 01:53:25,083 Trouble's... Yeah, there we go. 2207 01:53:25,314 --> 01:53:27,953 And this is very reminiscent, look at the scene... 2208 01:53:28,233 --> 01:53:33,068 ...of the film Kevin Costner just did. 2209 01:53:34,948 --> 01:53:37,667 The guys gathering for the big gunfight. 2210 01:53:40,287 --> 01:53:42,482 With the church steeple in the background, though... 2211 01:53:42,747 --> 01:53:44,305 ...that sets it up very nicely... 2212 01:53:44,541 --> 01:53:48,329 ...in terms of the signature of civilisation's rise... 2213 01:53:48,670 --> 01:53:51,309 ...versus the open plain on the other side. 2214 01:53:51,589 --> 01:53:54,467 On one side, wilderness, on the other, the church. 2215 01:53:54,758 --> 01:53:57,511 Yeah, this is a very schematic set. 2216 01:53:57,804 --> 01:54:00,398 The church steeple is so reminiscent of High Noon too... 2217 01:54:00,682 --> 01:54:03,480 ...which kind of dominates that Western town as well. 2218 01:54:06,813 --> 01:54:08,644 That's why the set works so well, by the way... 2219 01:54:08,898 --> 01:54:12,493 ...just in a filmmaking point of view. 2220 01:54:12,819 --> 01:54:16,334 A lot of nice hills around that kind of guard you... 2221 01:54:16,655 --> 01:54:19,328 ...from the highway that's just right over that ridge line. 2222 01:54:19,616 --> 01:54:23,291 Right, and a vista that is completely unobstructed by power lines. 2223 01:54:23,620 --> 01:54:25,212 I haven't even seen a vapour trail yet. 2224 01:54:25,455 --> 01:54:27,923 Considering there is a major airport just 50 miles away... 2225 01:54:28,208 --> 01:54:29,561 ...they're doing a good job here. 2226 01:54:29,793 --> 01:54:31,192 Tough to find. 2227 01:54:33,005 --> 01:54:35,439 And you see how this they use this town in Wyatt Earp as well. 2228 01:54:35,716 --> 01:54:39,026 This is very reminiscent of Wyatt Earp. 2229 01:54:39,345 --> 01:54:40,573 The guy's climbing up there... 2230 01:54:40,805 --> 01:54:42,761 ...because you know he's gonna be shot off there. 2231 01:54:43,014 --> 01:54:45,005 He's gonna to take a major fall. 2232 01:54:45,517 --> 01:54:48,509 No sense in actually walking up the steps and going out the window... 2233 01:54:48,812 --> 01:54:50,165 ...when you can climb up the pole. 2234 01:54:50,397 --> 01:54:52,115 That would be absolutely correct. 2235 01:54:52,399 --> 01:54:54,708 Wouldn't be the cowboy way. Or the bad cowboy way. 2236 01:54:56,444 --> 01:54:59,993 This is the first time we actually had people on the streets in number. 2237 01:55:00,323 --> 01:55:02,917 That opening scene with the stagecoach coming in and everything... 2238 01:55:03,201 --> 01:55:04,554 ...used some extras. 2239 01:55:04,786 --> 01:55:07,175 Because, again, I'm very concerned about the extras. 2240 01:55:07,455 --> 01:55:09,286 - This is right out of... - Cemetery scenes here... 2241 01:55:09,540 --> 01:55:11,371 It's right out of Gunfight at the O.K. Corral. 2242 01:55:11,625 --> 01:55:14,059 I'm about to break into Frankie Laine singing "Boot Hill"... 2243 01:55:14,336 --> 01:55:17,931 ...as they cross the graveyard heading for the gunfight. Get it? 2244 01:55:18,299 --> 01:55:19,493 That would be... 2245 01:55:19,717 --> 01:55:23,426 And there is Silverado sitting right up there on top of that hill. 2246 01:55:23,763 --> 01:55:25,355 You know, that Copland-esque music there. 2247 01:55:25,598 --> 01:55:27,907 Very nice. You know, you're absolutely right. 2248 01:55:28,184 --> 01:55:31,142 The soundtrack to this is very, very nice... 2249 01:55:31,437 --> 01:55:33,507 ...and I had not paid that much attention to it. 2250 01:55:33,773 --> 01:55:36,765 I listen to soundtracks when I write, and so I need to get this. 2251 01:55:37,109 --> 01:55:40,340 - I wonder if it's available on CD. - Yeah, it really is terrific. 2252 01:55:40,696 --> 01:55:42,926 And he also did the soundtrack to Black Robe... 2253 01:55:43,198 --> 01:55:47,669 ...which is a soundtrack I do listen to a lot and love. I just think it's great. 2254 01:55:48,245 --> 01:55:50,759 And the Western, of course, really gives you an opportunity... 2255 01:55:51,039 --> 01:55:52,631 ...to do some wonderful music... 2256 01:55:52,874 --> 01:55:56,389 ...and really opens up musical possibilities. 2257 01:55:56,712 --> 01:55:57,781 Is he still bareback? 2258 01:56:00,174 --> 01:56:03,211 "Let's get them!" Is that another line that's often used in the Western? 2259 01:56:03,510 --> 01:56:04,943 I'll bet it is. 2260 01:56:09,474 --> 01:56:12,227 Well, "Let's get out of here" is not confined to the Western. 2261 01:56:12,519 --> 01:56:14,987 It actually shows up in virtually every movie ever made. 2262 01:56:15,271 --> 01:56:16,499 I see, "Let's get out of here." 2263 01:56:16,731 --> 01:56:19,564 Except, possibly The Passion of the Christ. 2264 01:56:20,860 --> 01:56:23,055 Which I still haven't seen. 2265 01:56:23,947 --> 01:56:26,859 But it would have been a good line in that movie. "Let's get out of here." 2266 01:56:27,158 --> 01:56:28,671 I don't know how you say it in Aramaic. 2267 01:56:28,909 --> 01:56:30,137 - Oh, she's alive! - She survived! 2268 01:56:30,369 --> 01:56:32,519 She's alive. I thought she took it right in the chest. 2269 01:56:32,788 --> 01:56:34,619 Yeah, all the good people survive. 2270 01:56:34,874 --> 01:56:37,434 You know, the brother... 2271 01:56:37,710 --> 01:56:40,782 ...who is shot before the kid is killed, he's fine. You know, they're all fine. 2272 01:56:41,089 --> 01:56:43,000 - Danny Glover's dad didn't live. - That's true. 2273 01:56:43,257 --> 01:56:44,736 Not only was he shot, they drowned him. 2274 01:56:44,967 --> 01:56:48,084 - I mean, for heaven's sake, you know... - Then I'm sure he was bad at heart. 2275 01:56:48,388 --> 01:56:49,582 No, I don't... 2276 01:56:49,847 --> 01:56:52,759 - He was just old. - Yes, just his time to go. 2277 01:56:53,059 --> 01:56:55,493 His time to go, yeah. 2278 01:56:58,772 --> 01:57:01,240 In that sense, it's very much like a Gene Autry film... 2279 01:57:01,525 --> 01:57:02,674 ...in that no one's dying. 2280 01:57:02,901 --> 01:57:05,051 Everyone's getting wounded: 2281 01:57:05,320 --> 01:57:07,595 "That hurts. Right in the shoulder." 2282 01:57:09,783 --> 01:57:12,013 They've been restoring a lot of those Gene Autry films. 2283 01:57:12,285 --> 01:57:13,274 That was nice. 2284 01:57:13,495 --> 01:57:15,725 They've been restoring a lot of those Gene Autry films... 2285 01:57:15,998 --> 01:57:17,636 ...and showing them on the Western Channel. 2286 01:57:17,875 --> 01:57:18,990 Are you guys financing that? 2287 01:57:19,210 --> 01:57:22,441 No, but the Autry Foundation... I mean, they do it. 2288 01:57:22,754 --> 01:57:25,826 - Well, isn't that you? - We're related, but we're independent. 2289 01:57:26,132 --> 01:57:28,726 Trying to distance yourself, I can see. 2290 01:57:29,302 --> 01:57:32,021 But those are nice, those are nice. 2291 01:57:32,430 --> 01:57:34,660 There is actually one, Frank, one of those Autry films... 2292 01:57:34,933 --> 01:57:36,651 ...that does the Texas World's Fair. 2293 01:57:36,893 --> 01:57:38,406 - The Big Show. - Yeah, The Big Show. 2294 01:57:38,645 --> 01:57:40,317 And they have a little bit of Alamo in there. 2295 01:57:41,606 --> 01:57:43,119 So I bought that film just for that. 2296 01:57:43,983 --> 01:57:46,702 Frank and I are, of course, total and complete Alamo loons. 2297 01:57:47,028 --> 01:57:48,222 Yeah, clearly. 2298 01:57:48,445 --> 01:57:51,278 Agree on almost everything, except the recent film that was made. 2299 01:57:53,033 --> 01:57:56,469 - You mean the great one? - The great one, yeah, the great one. 2300 01:57:57,455 --> 01:57:59,173 Of course, I'm in the great one. 2301 01:57:59,415 --> 01:58:00,734 - You are in it? - I have a close-up. 2302 01:58:00,958 --> 01:58:02,835 He has a close-up, but he doesn't have a line. 2303 01:58:03,085 --> 01:58:06,794 I have six lines in Nak ed Gun 331/3. Six. Six lines. 2304 01:58:07,131 --> 01:58:11,522 And I'm in, you know, the final movie with O.J. Simpson. 2305 01:58:11,886 --> 01:58:12,875 With a mask on your face. 2306 01:58:13,095 --> 01:58:15,404 It's safe to say that you are in O.J. Simpson's final movie. 2307 01:58:15,680 --> 01:58:17,033 Yes, I think that probably is true. 2308 01:58:17,265 --> 01:58:18,459 I do have a mask on my face. 2309 01:58:18,683 --> 01:58:21,675 People have often said, "Who is that masked man?" 2310 01:58:21,978 --> 01:58:24,856 - I don't think anybody's ever said that. - Who are you in The Alamo, Frank? 2311 01:58:25,148 --> 01:58:26,547 - Just some guy. - He's in the... 2312 01:58:26,775 --> 01:58:28,925 Is that how you're described in the credits, "Some Guy"? 2313 01:58:29,194 --> 01:58:34,109 He is in the endless Texas Declaration of Independence scenes... 2314 01:58:34,492 --> 01:58:37,404 ...where they're all thinking about what they should be doing... 2315 01:58:37,703 --> 01:58:40,171 ...while the boys in the Alamo are fighting for freedom. 2316 01:58:40,455 --> 01:58:42,366 I'm the emotional centre of that scene. 2317 01:58:42,624 --> 01:58:44,899 I don't know what he was doing with John Lee Hancock... 2318 01:58:45,168 --> 01:58:48,797 ...but he's got three really good close-ups, so I think he... 2319 01:58:49,130 --> 01:58:51,246 - It's just star power. - Yeah, I guess so, I guess. 2320 01:58:51,507 --> 01:58:52,906 And in one of them, he emotes. 2321 01:58:53,134 --> 01:58:56,968 It's only a pity that on this DVD we're exclusively in audio. 2322 01:58:57,305 --> 01:59:01,218 Yes, someday we should do another one of these tracks picture-in-picture. 2323 01:59:01,559 --> 01:59:05,108 - Yeah. - I think the audience would thank us. 2324 01:59:05,438 --> 01:59:08,032 There are some good-looking guys in this room, believe me. 2325 01:59:09,107 --> 01:59:11,701 Yeah, but they're all out there at the sound booth. 2326 01:59:15,072 --> 01:59:17,984 John Lee Hancock, by the way, I think is indeed... 2327 01:59:18,284 --> 01:59:20,115 Let me correct myself and make it clear... 2328 01:59:20,369 --> 01:59:24,203 ...that he is a great and wonderful guy and a superb writer. 2329 01:59:24,540 --> 01:59:28,169 - And made a great film. - Did make... Did try at a difficult film. 2330 01:59:28,502 --> 01:59:30,458 - Here is a great one. - We're watching. 2331 01:59:30,713 --> 01:59:32,146 We're gonna try and pay attention. 2332 01:59:32,381 --> 01:59:34,770 We're not supposed to be watching. We're supposed to talk. 2333 01:59:35,049 --> 01:59:37,005 But this is a scene that should be... 2334 01:59:37,260 --> 01:59:39,933 This is classic Western gunfighter stuff. 2335 01:59:41,222 --> 01:59:42,416 I see that. 2336 01:59:42,640 --> 01:59:44,312 There you go. I mean, that's, come on... 2337 01:59:44,559 --> 01:59:46,550 - Correct in every detail. - Yeah. 2338 01:59:46,811 --> 01:59:49,803 Just like it happened in the Old Wild West everywhere. 2339 01:59:52,275 --> 01:59:54,315 It's only interesting from a Western movie point of view... 2340 01:59:54,403 --> 01:59:56,234 It's only interesting from a Western movie point of view... 2341 01:59:56,488 --> 01:59:58,558 ...that that bad guy gets such a buildup... 2342 01:59:58,824 --> 01:59:59,813 And then dies like that. 2343 02:00:00,033 --> 02:00:02,263 And then just dies quickly without much fanfare. 2344 02:00:02,535 --> 02:00:06,369 Because they keep going to him. "This is gonna be fun," you know. 2345 02:00:06,706 --> 02:00:09,778 And that's a problem in Open Range. It just stunned me in Open Range... 2346 02:00:10,126 --> 02:00:12,515 ...where they have this buildup, and against a British guy... 2347 02:00:12,795 --> 02:00:16,754 ...a British killer who obviously had murdered Kevin Costner's friend... 2348 02:00:17,091 --> 02:00:20,367 ...and then he's killed, but they cut out all the buildup. 2349 02:00:20,720 --> 02:00:24,235 You can tell he's supposed to be bad or we're really supposed to care... 2350 02:00:24,598 --> 02:00:29,388 ...and he has a great death, but there is no villainous buildup. 2351 02:00:29,769 --> 02:00:32,647 In other words, you've gotta shoot a pig or something... 2352 02:00:32,940 --> 02:00:35,898 ...or you've gotta kick the dog, or you've gotta do something... 2353 02:00:36,193 --> 02:00:38,582 You know, the derringer, the hideaway gun... 2354 02:00:38,863 --> 02:00:40,854 ...was really prevalent in the gambler class. 2355 02:00:41,115 --> 02:00:44,903 So it's cute that Goldblum has it. 2356 02:00:45,244 --> 02:00:48,554 They were quite common in the West, and they had a wide variety. 2357 02:00:48,873 --> 02:00:52,309 In the early West, the riverboat time that you and I write about, Steve... 2358 02:00:52,625 --> 02:00:55,583 ...they would have little knives on them as well, as an all-purpose... 2359 02:00:55,878 --> 02:00:57,596 Because you only get one shot... 2360 02:00:57,839 --> 02:01:00,069 ...and then you stab the guy, just in case you missed... 2361 02:01:00,341 --> 02:01:04,380 ...which people usually did in the West, especially with a small hideaway gun. 2362 02:01:04,721 --> 02:01:07,394 And they had whole contraptions that were rigged... 2363 02:01:07,682 --> 02:01:10,150 ...so it would pop out in your hand. 2364 02:01:10,435 --> 02:01:13,074 And those of us who are climbing into middle-age now... 2365 02:01:13,397 --> 02:01:13,437 ...remember the great character that Jock Mahoney played... 2366 02:01:13,438 --> 02:01:16,157 ...remember the great character that Jock Mahoney played... 2367 02:01:16,441 --> 02:01:20,354 ...Yancy Derringer, back in the '50s. Absolutely. 2368 02:01:23,239 --> 02:01:26,276 But Scott Glenn really has recuperated remarkably well. 2369 02:01:26,575 --> 02:01:28,725 He's showing no signs of the distress. 2370 02:01:28,995 --> 02:01:30,826 You know, revenge is the great cure-all. 2371 02:01:31,080 --> 02:01:32,752 Of being stampeded. 2372 02:01:33,124 --> 02:01:35,274 The next time you're down with a cold or something... 2373 02:01:35,543 --> 02:01:37,181 ...just decide to get even with somebody... 2374 02:01:37,420 --> 02:01:39,331 ...and you'll be right back on your feet again. 2375 02:01:39,964 --> 02:01:41,716 Now his gun is gonna jam. 2376 02:01:42,800 --> 02:01:44,119 And he missed on the crucial shot. 2377 02:01:44,385 --> 02:01:47,457 But he missed. He finally missed. Yes, that's incredible. 2378 02:01:47,762 --> 02:01:49,559 Is that an outhouse back there, by the way? 2379 02:01:49,806 --> 02:01:52,001 I think we should talk about plumbing in the Old West. 2380 02:01:52,268 --> 02:01:53,747 It's our job to be discussing history. 2381 02:01:53,978 --> 02:01:56,287 This is back to my Smell-o-vision version of Western movies. 2382 02:01:56,564 --> 02:01:58,395 This is the guy who had trampled him earlier... 2383 02:01:58,649 --> 02:02:02,358 ...so he gets his poetic comeuppance here. 2384 02:02:03,070 --> 02:02:05,823 I see what's going to happen. Yes. Right. 2385 02:02:06,115 --> 02:02:08,549 The milk cans are nice. Did you see the milk cans there? 2386 02:02:08,826 --> 02:02:09,895 That was very nice. 2387 02:02:10,119 --> 02:02:13,156 By the way, these trees... This is very high plain. 2388 02:02:13,454 --> 02:02:18,050 These trees are all planted, you see. The set dresser has brought them in. 2389 02:02:18,459 --> 02:02:21,849 There's no trees out there, as you can see if you look at the vista. 2390 02:02:22,171 --> 02:02:23,843 It's not natural to the place. 2391 02:02:26,300 --> 02:02:29,178 I hope he doesn't get knocked in a pigpen and then eaten by the pigs. 2392 02:02:29,470 --> 02:02:32,382 That would be indeed very poignant. 2393 02:02:32,683 --> 02:02:35,675 And it would be prescient, as well, for things to come. 2394 02:02:35,978 --> 02:02:38,208 - Where do you learn words like that? - I studied with you. 2395 02:02:38,479 --> 02:02:41,676 Steve has got a Ph.D., and he doesn't know words like that. 2396 02:02:41,982 --> 02:02:45,019 - I've learned not to used them. - I spend a lot of time alone. 2397 02:02:45,361 --> 02:02:46,510 Just studying the thesaurus. 2398 02:02:46,737 --> 02:02:48,728 - Where did you go to graduate school? - Berkeley. 2399 02:02:49,031 --> 02:02:53,946 So you're just a California boy. Now you're back here at UCLA. 2400 02:02:54,328 --> 02:02:56,319 That's got to kind of cause you conflict... 2401 02:02:56,580 --> 02:02:58,730 ...to have graduated from Berkeley and be at UCLA. 2402 02:02:58,999 --> 02:03:00,318 That has gotta be painful for you. 2403 02:03:00,542 --> 02:03:02,533 That would be like if I went to Purdue or something. 2404 02:03:02,795 --> 02:03:05,434 I mean, oh, my God. The pain of that. 2405 02:03:05,713 --> 02:03:07,385 Oh, another wound. 2406 02:03:08,925 --> 02:03:10,074 And now without a weapon. 2407 02:03:10,301 --> 02:03:13,259 Yes, he's got to find another way. 2408 02:03:13,555 --> 02:03:15,944 What is the matter with this guy that he? 2409 02:03:16,225 --> 02:03:20,935 Yeah, rather than shooting from his horse being at a standstill... 2410 02:03:21,313 --> 02:03:24,464 ...he, of course, gallops his horse. 2411 02:03:25,526 --> 02:03:26,925 But here comes... 2412 02:03:28,737 --> 02:03:32,730 - There you go. - I see. Very, very nice. Very nice. 2413 02:03:33,074 --> 02:03:34,746 There was a lot of that in the Old West. 2414 02:03:34,992 --> 02:03:38,951 A lot of the diving your horse out of a second-story building. 2415 02:03:39,288 --> 02:03:40,801 That's something Champion could've done. 2416 02:03:41,040 --> 02:03:42,473 - Yes, and did it very well. - Yeah. 2417 02:03:42,708 --> 02:03:44,107 The various Champions. 2418 02:03:44,335 --> 02:03:47,725 This would be an opportunity to talk about great horses in the movies. 2419 02:03:48,047 --> 02:03:51,005 - Tarzan? - Tom Mix's horse, right? 2420 02:03:51,301 --> 02:03:52,661 And what was William S. Hart's horse's name? 2421 02:03:52,719 --> 02:03:54,437 And what was William S. Hart's horse's name? 2422 02:03:54,679 --> 02:03:56,988 - That's a tough one. - Oh, I do know that. 2423 02:03:57,264 --> 02:03:58,936 Well, we're waiting for you to tell us. 2424 02:03:59,183 --> 02:04:01,014 It'll come to me when I'm not thinking about it. 2425 02:04:01,268 --> 02:04:03,498 Tony? Is it Tony? 2426 02:04:03,771 --> 02:04:05,841 - William S. Hart? No? - Maybe. 2427 02:04:06,106 --> 02:04:09,382 Topper, of course, is Hopalong Cassidy's horse. 2428 02:04:09,693 --> 02:04:11,684 And most recently, Seabiscuit... 2429 02:04:11,945 --> 02:04:13,856 ...in a slightly different version of the Western. 2430 02:04:14,114 --> 02:04:15,103 Well, yes. 2431 02:04:15,366 --> 02:04:18,563 Now here we are, down to the final two people upright, apparently. 2432 02:04:18,869 --> 02:04:21,702 Evidently. By the way, Buttermilk was Dale Evans' horse name. 2433 02:04:21,997 --> 02:04:23,828 - Trigger for Roy Rogers. - Trigger's easy. 2434 02:04:24,081 --> 02:04:25,355 Let's not forget Silver. 2435 02:04:25,583 --> 02:04:30,099 Silver? What about Scout? "Get him up, Scout," remember? 2436 02:04:30,464 --> 02:04:34,298 Now that's the clich�d shot, though. On the one end... 2437 02:04:34,635 --> 02:04:39,834 When we discuss Mr. Kasdan's films, we should not use the word "clich�." 2438 02:04:40,223 --> 02:04:42,612 We should talk about framing, we should talk about brilliance. 2439 02:04:42,893 --> 02:04:44,565 - We should talk about use of light. - Homage. 2440 02:04:44,811 --> 02:04:45,926 It's a brilliant shot. 2441 02:04:46,146 --> 02:04:48,614 Did you see the tumbleweed? Look, they've got the fans going. 2442 02:04:48,899 --> 02:04:50,127 They're blowing that dust. 2443 02:04:50,357 --> 02:04:52,746 As if you have to get fans going in New Mexico. 2444 02:04:53,027 --> 02:04:57,418 Unfortunately, we do have lots of dust all the time whipping through. 2445 02:04:57,782 --> 02:04:59,932 And again, this is a classic scene. 2446 02:05:00,201 --> 02:05:02,999 It's certainly the classic scene in Western movies... 2447 02:05:03,287 --> 02:05:06,085 ...is that final gunfight. 2448 02:05:06,373 --> 02:05:10,491 I think, as I said earlier, many Western historians have suggested... 2449 02:05:10,837 --> 02:05:14,989 ...that the prevalence of such scenes are greatly exaggerated... 2450 02:05:15,342 --> 02:05:16,775 ...in Western movies. 2451 02:05:17,009 --> 02:05:20,638 That... As an event in Western towns, it was a rarity. 2452 02:05:20,971 --> 02:05:23,565 To get that kind of gunfighter, formal duel. 2453 02:05:23,849 --> 02:05:27,637 That's not to say there's not a long duelling tradition in American history... 2454 02:05:27,978 --> 02:05:29,775 ...especially coming out of the old South... 2455 02:05:30,022 --> 02:05:33,901 ...where honour culture and notions of duelling and protection of honour... 2456 02:05:34,234 --> 02:05:35,667 ...have a sort of long-standing... 2457 02:05:35,903 --> 02:05:37,973 Especially, continuing into the early republic. 2458 02:05:38,280 --> 02:05:42,478 But in the Old West, I think that sort of gunfighter duel, the formal duel... 2459 02:05:42,825 --> 02:05:45,134 ...is relatively less common. 2460 02:05:45,411 --> 02:05:47,766 I can only think of two of them that actually ever occurred. 2461 02:05:48,039 --> 02:05:50,917 One is a very famous gunfight between Wild Bill Hickok and Dave Tutt... 2462 02:05:51,209 --> 02:05:52,483 ...in the town square of St. Joe. 2463 02:05:52,711 --> 02:05:55,783 They really did call each other out. They really met in the middle of town. 2464 02:05:56,089 --> 02:05:57,522 And Hickok absolutely drilled him... 2465 02:05:57,758 --> 02:06:01,307 ...then turned and covered the other guys that were coming to help Dave. 2466 02:06:01,636 --> 02:06:03,752 And then, of course, the gunfight at the O.K. Corral... 2467 02:06:04,014 --> 02:06:10,249 ...the classic walk down the street to the confrontation with your enemies. 2468 02:06:11,437 --> 02:06:16,227 Actually, at the O.K. Corral, it would be the vacant lot behind the O. K Corral... 2469 02:06:16,609 --> 02:06:19,203 ...where the gunfight took place. Doesn't sound quite as good. 2470 02:06:19,486 --> 02:06:21,317 I think if you were raised on Western movies... 2471 02:06:21,572 --> 02:06:23,642 ...you would think this was an almost daily event. 2472 02:06:23,907 --> 02:06:24,942 You would think, indeed. 2473 02:06:25,159 --> 02:06:27,719 More common would be the gunfight Wild Bill had... 2474 02:06:27,995 --> 02:06:29,667 ...with Phil Coe, the gambler... 2475 02:06:29,914 --> 02:06:33,873 ...which takes place in the doorway of the Alamo saloon. 2476 02:06:34,210 --> 02:06:36,405 Coe had shot a dog and is just raising hell... 2477 02:06:36,670 --> 02:06:40,140 ...and Hickok comes running up, and they have gunfight right there. 2478 02:06:40,465 --> 02:06:43,855 He kills Phil Coe, and then hears someone coming up behind him. 2479 02:06:44,177 --> 02:06:48,853 Turns, swirls and fires, and shoots his own deputy dead. 2480 02:06:50,183 --> 02:06:53,619 That gunfight in Abilene is about as famous and more typical... 2481 02:06:53,937 --> 02:06:56,292 ...of the kind of gunfights that really occurred... 2482 02:06:56,565 --> 02:06:58,840 ...which is chaotic action. - Right. 2483 02:06:59,109 --> 02:07:02,579 And usually just occurring in a second, without that long walk. 2484 02:07:02,903 --> 02:07:06,737 That's why the Hickok duel with Dave Tutt is so famous. 2485 02:07:07,074 --> 02:07:10,544 The gunfights in movies are always staged this way... 2486 02:07:10,871 --> 02:07:14,068 ...I think simply as a way to build up tension... 2487 02:07:14,374 --> 02:07:18,970 ...as a way to have the main protagonist and the main antagonist... 2488 02:07:19,337 --> 02:07:21,214 ...face each other down. 2489 02:07:21,464 --> 02:07:23,773 They usually get to say a few words to each other... 2490 02:07:24,050 --> 02:07:28,407 ...sum up things in a way that we would often like to do in life. 2491 02:07:29,763 --> 02:07:33,722 So I think dramatically it makes a great deal of sense. This is simply tension. 2492 02:07:34,059 --> 02:07:36,573 Yeah, and very stylised. And this gunfight is too. 2493 02:07:36,854 --> 02:07:39,322 I mean, it plays off the convention of the Western itself. 2494 02:07:39,606 --> 02:07:43,281 It's almost like a ballet, it's almost a little dance that they do. 2495 02:07:43,610 --> 02:07:45,999 And they come together for the climactic moment of the film... 2496 02:07:46,280 --> 02:07:48,999 ...and you know the hero's gonna win, the villain's gonna die... 2497 02:07:49,284 --> 02:07:51,161 ...and it's very dramatic. 2498 02:07:51,411 --> 02:07:54,767 What's amazing is that it can still have such power. 2499 02:07:55,122 --> 02:07:57,841 You've got to have the big gunfight. It's a Western. 2500 02:07:58,125 --> 02:08:01,003 Especially if you're playing off the conventions of the Western. 2501 02:08:01,294 --> 02:08:04,809 Like I said earlier, there's that one character who's built up so much... 2502 02:08:05,173 --> 02:08:07,482 ...and then is sort of killed offhandedly. 2503 02:08:07,843 --> 02:08:09,993 That's probably the way it could happen in real life... 2504 02:08:10,262 --> 02:08:14,813 ...but dramatically, you really want to build up to the face-off... 2505 02:08:15,183 --> 02:08:18,380 ...and to have people go out in a memorable way. 2506 02:08:18,687 --> 02:08:21,155 It's just the way we like our drama. 2507 02:08:22,439 --> 02:08:24,191 But here is the great reveal. 2508 02:08:30,031 --> 02:08:32,181 - Here we go. - Yep. 2509 02:08:36,413 --> 02:08:38,802 And back to those Copland-esque French horns... 2510 02:08:39,207 --> 02:08:41,277 ...to let us know we're... 2511 02:08:41,960 --> 02:08:45,032 We've been classic all the way, and we're classic at the end. 2512 02:08:49,341 --> 02:08:50,979 Well, it moves very well. 2513 02:08:51,218 --> 02:08:53,686 It works as exactly what it's supposed to be. 2514 02:08:53,971 --> 02:08:58,089 It's movie magic, it's great characters, it's larger than life. 2515 02:08:58,433 --> 02:08:59,912 A lot of action. 2516 02:09:00,143 --> 02:09:02,703 I've got no complaints with this movie. I like it a lot. 2517 02:09:02,980 --> 02:09:04,538 And It's not a pretentious film at all. 2518 02:09:04,773 --> 02:09:06,570 - I mean, it's exactly what it is. - Listen. 2519 02:09:07,652 --> 02:09:09,244 "We'll be back!" 2520 02:09:09,654 --> 02:09:12,612 There is the sequel, set up. And it never comes. 2521 02:09:12,907 --> 02:09:15,467 And look at that New Mexico landscape. 2522 02:09:15,867 --> 02:09:18,665 Well, boys, this has just been great fun. 2523 02:09:18,954 --> 02:09:20,592 It's been great to see this film again... 2524 02:09:20,831 --> 02:09:22,742 ...which I actually hadn't seen since it came out. 2525 02:09:22,999 --> 02:09:24,193 I saw it when it came out. 2526 02:09:24,417 --> 02:09:28,615 And it was such a touchstone to an effort on Kasdan's part... 2527 02:09:28,964 --> 02:09:31,319 ...to re-create the Western. 2528 02:09:31,591 --> 02:09:35,743 It didn't quite work, I think, the way he had hoped it would... 2529 02:09:36,096 --> 02:09:39,088 ...in bringing back a lot of Westerns, but it holds up well today. 2530 02:09:39,391 --> 02:09:41,143 It's been great for me, Paul Hutton... 2531 02:09:41,392 --> 02:09:45,510 ...to be here with you, Frank, and you, Steve, and see this. 2532 02:09:45,854 --> 02:09:49,130 It has been a pleasure. I look forward, Paul and Frank... 2533 02:09:49,442 --> 02:09:51,831 ...to joining you for Silverado 2 at some point. 2534 02:09:52,111 --> 02:09:53,590 This is Steve Aron. 2535 02:09:53,821 --> 02:09:57,496 I'm Frank Thompson and I've broken one of my cardinal rules in life... 2536 02:09:57,825 --> 02:09:59,417 ...by talking all the way through a movie. 2537 02:09:59,661 --> 02:10:02,095 You'll never catch me doing this again, but I had a great time. 2538 02:10:02,372 --> 02:10:05,091 Well, let's do it again, Frank. 2539 02:10:06,167 --> 02:10:08,601 My connection, slight as it is, with the film industry... 2540 02:10:08,877 --> 02:10:12,950 ...leads me to sit through all credits and watch them very carefully. 2541 02:10:13,298 --> 02:10:16,813 Especially to see where my little minor one is. 2542 02:10:17,302 --> 02:10:19,133 You get a deeper appreciation for credits. 2543 02:10:19,387 --> 02:10:21,423 In The Alamo, I had to tell all my family: 2544 02:10:21,681 --> 02:10:24,115 "For once you're gonna have to sit through the credits... 2545 02:10:24,392 --> 02:10:26,064 ...because my name comes at the very last..." 2546 02:10:26,311 --> 02:10:28,779 That's how you know when you're seeing a movie in Los Angeles... 2547 02:10:29,065 --> 02:10:30,293 ...because people do. - They do. 2548 02:10:30,524 --> 02:10:32,003 In Los Angeles, people sit and watch... 2549 02:10:32,235 --> 02:10:33,270 And applaud. 2550 02:10:33,485 --> 02:10:36,761 Three people will applaud when the property master's credit comes up. 2551 02:10:37,072 --> 02:10:38,425 "What's that?" 2552 02:10:38,657 --> 02:10:42,286 lf, after you're finished watching the final scene of Nak ed Gun 331/3... 2553 02:10:42,619 --> 02:10:44,655 - Which we're all gonna go rent. - I hope you will. 2554 02:10:45,038 --> 02:10:48,235 As well as the New Mexico tourist brochure. 2555 02:10:48,541 --> 02:10:50,771 But you need to watch the credits all the way through... 2556 02:10:51,044 --> 02:10:52,796 ...because, toward the end of the credits... 2557 02:10:53,046 --> 02:10:55,924 Because the Zucker brothers always do these funny credits... 2558 02:10:56,216 --> 02:10:58,776 ...and toward the very end of the film, it says: 2559 02:10:59,052 --> 02:11:01,885 "For further reading, we suggest Phil Sheridan and His Army... 2560 02:11:02,179 --> 02:11:03,328 ...by Paul Andrew Hutton." 2561 02:11:03,555 --> 02:11:04,874 - So there we go. - There's a plug. 2562 02:11:05,098 --> 02:11:08,090 Available from the University of Oklahoma Press, now New Press. 2563 02:11:08,394 --> 02:11:10,908 Which is also, by the way, bringing out my The Custer Reader... 2564 02:11:11,189 --> 02:11:13,100 ...which is just coming out in another month. 2565 02:11:13,358 --> 02:11:14,711 You can pick up your copy, Steve. 2566 02:11:14,942 --> 02:11:17,331 As I know you'll want to get the new edition... 2567 02:11:17,612 --> 02:11:20,524 ...of Worlds Together, Worlds Apart from W.W. Norton. 2568 02:11:20,865 --> 02:11:23,538 A History of the Modern World From the Mongol Empire to the Present. 2569 02:11:23,826 --> 02:11:25,054 - You wrote this? - I cowrote it. 2570 02:11:25,286 --> 02:11:28,039 You cowrote it. You couldn't do the whole world by yourself? 2571 02:11:28,330 --> 02:11:31,163 As well as, forthcoming from Indiana University Press... 2572 02:11:31,458 --> 02:11:32,573 ...American Confluence: 2573 02:11:32,792 --> 02:11:35,545 The Missouri Frontier From Borderland to Border State. 2574 02:11:35,837 --> 02:11:37,748 My goodness, that sounds very good. 2575 02:11:38,006 --> 02:11:39,155 Oh, very good. 2576 02:11:39,382 --> 02:11:40,735 And still How the West Was Lost: 2577 02:11:40,967 --> 02:11:43,401 The Transformation of Kentucky from Daniel Boone to Henry Clay. 2578 02:11:43,678 --> 02:11:45,714 - Which is a wonderful book. - As are yours. 2579 02:11:46,015 --> 02:11:47,892 I don't want to butt in on this. 2580 02:11:48,142 --> 02:11:50,975 That was some really shameless plugging. 2581 02:11:51,270 --> 02:11:54,706 I have had four books come out since November, but... 2582 02:11:55,023 --> 02:11:57,821 What would those be, Frank? I can't keep track of them all. 2583 02:11:58,109 --> 02:12:00,100 Simply Google me and you'll find out. 2584 02:12:00,361 --> 02:12:01,350 Google you. 2585 02:12:01,571 --> 02:12:03,641 I'm not gonna Google you, Frank. I refuse to. 2586 02:12:03,907 --> 02:12:05,465 And I wish you wouldn't talk that way. 2587 02:12:05,700 --> 02:12:08,419 Then that's one more dream that will never come true.