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00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,560
Irving: I don't see any reason
to be tasteful about Auschwitz.
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00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,450
I say to you quite tastelessly
3
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,330
that more women died
on the back seat
4
00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,730
of senator Edward Kennedy's
car at Chappaquiddick
5
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,410
than ever died in
a gas chamber at Auschwitz.
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00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,000
Deborah:
Holocaust denial rests on
7
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,400
four basic assertions.
8
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:37,680
Number one.
9
00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:43,850
That there was never any systematic
or organized attempt by the Nazis
10
00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,880
to kill all of Europe's Jews.
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00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:47,840
Number two.
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00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,920
That the numbers are far fewer
than five or six million.
13
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,000
Number three.
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00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,250
That there were no gas chambers
15
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,360
or specially built
extermination facilities.
16
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:03,010
Number four.
17
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,850
That the holocaust
is therefore a myth
18
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,090
invented by Jews
19
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,090
to get themselves
financial compensation
20
00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,880
and to further the fortunes
of the state of Israel.
21
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:18,040
War, the deniers say,
is a bloody business.
22
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,570
There's nothing special
about the Jews,
23
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,890
they're not unique
in their suffering.
24
00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:24,930
They're just everyday
casualties of war.
25
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,400
What's the fuss?
26
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,720
Okay, and here's
another question,
27
00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,090
how do we know
the holocaust happened?
28
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,560
Seriously. I'm asking.
How do we prove it?
29
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,410
Female student:
Photographic evidence?
30
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,490
Not one person in
this room or outside it
31
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,370
has ever seen a photograph
of a Jew inside a gas chamber.
32
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:46,600
You know why?
33
00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:49,360
Because the Germans made sure
that none were ever taken.
34
00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,600
So how do we know?
35
00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:58,480
How do we know
that so many were murdered?
36
00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,440
So what's the proof?
Where's the proof?
37
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:04,680
How strong is it?
38
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,250
Bob Edwards:
Good morning on veterans day,
39
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,090
ceremonies being held today
40
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,770
here in Washington
and across the country.
41
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,450
Here, mutt.
I'm Bob Edwards.
42
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,610
Today is Friday, November 11th,
43
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,210
and this is npr's
morning edition.
44
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,810
Man: Morning, professor lipstadt.
Deborah: Good morning.
45
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,800
Good morning, professor.
Morning.
46
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,360
Morning.
Leonie: Morning.
47
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,450
Speech. Two copies
with corrections.
48
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,050
And Jamie called from nbc.
49
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,290
They still want the
interview about the book.
50
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,090
These go back to the library.
You make copies.
51
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,840
All right.
I'll take this.
52
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:35,640
Deborah: And he needs water.
53
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,840
Leonie: You want a hand with that?
Deborah: I'm okay.
54
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,570
Male newsreader: And Atlanta
weather on this veterans day,
55
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,560
mostly sunny
with clouds creeping in
56
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,400
by the end of the afternoon.
57
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:47,850
Deborah: I do a lot
of these events.
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00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,530
So if you could put
a table at the back.
59
00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,130
Right by the door, uh,
perfect as they leave.
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00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:53,730
Gloria: Oh, I certainly will.
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00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,290
Deborah: Any writer
will tell you, at these events
62
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,360
you always sell 37 books.
63
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,000
No matter what size,
uh, the audience.
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00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:10,850
If it's 50 people, 37 books
65
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,890
and I'm wondering, you know, is it fixed?
Do you think it's fixed?
66
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,370
Gloria: Thank you
so much, Deborah.
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00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,480
But I think we better
get things started, yeah?
68
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,370
Gloria: Everyone, it is
my pleasure to introduce
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00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,130
the holder of the dorot chair
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00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:24,890
in Jewish and holocaust studies
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00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,490
at Emory university
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00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,530
and the author of
denying the holocaust;
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00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,690
the growing assault
on truth and memory,
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00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,240
Deborah lipstadt.
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00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,050
Whatever the reasons
that people become deniers,
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00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:44,650
when you look closely,
77
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,410
they often have an agenda
which they won't admit to.
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00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,010
So denial is a pick
to undo the lock
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00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,920
to open the door
to something else.
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00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:53,210
Yes.
81
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,250
Somebody told me you
don't debate with people
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00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:57,160
who say the holocaust
didn't happen.
83
00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:58,810
Deborah: Uh, that is correct.
84
00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:01,840
Like I don't debate with
people who say Elvis is alive.
85
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,250
Talking to people
you don't agree with,
86
00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:07,360
that's democracy, isn't it?
87
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,410
It's cowardly
not to talk to them.
88
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,250
Are you calling me a coward?
89
00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:12,890
Well...
No, no, listen.
90
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:14,850
I... I don't see it that way.
91
00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,170
You can have opinions
about the holocaust.
92
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,490
You can argue about
why it happened
93
00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:20,690
and how it happened.
94
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,010
But what I won't do is meet
with anyone, anyone,
95
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,000
who says it didn't happen.
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00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,000
Because the holocaust
happened. It happened.
97
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,290
And that isn't opinion.
That's fact.
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00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:33,970
And I won't debate fact.
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00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,130
In your book,
why do you continually
100
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:37,920
denigrate the work
of David Irving?
101
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,970
He's a scholar.
He's discovered all sorts of
102
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,010
primary sources
no one else knew about.
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00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:43,330
Well, to be honest,
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00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,450
I don't think I
do denigrate him.
105
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,600
Actually, I don't really
think about him that much.
106
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,520
I don't think
he's worth my time.
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00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:54,890
Yes, sir.
Gentleman in the back.
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00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,040
Professor lipstadt.
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00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,240
Uh, let me reveal
something to you, professor.
110
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,720
I am that David Irving about
whom you have been so rude.
111
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,840
Yes, yes, lam he.
112
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,120
And it puzzles me
113
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,810
that you think yourself
qualified to attack me,
114
00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,330
given that I have 30 years'
experience in the archives
115
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:15,730
and my books have
been published by
116
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,330
some of the greatest publishing
houses in the world.
117
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,170
Viking press, William morrow,
e.P. Dutton.
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00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,690
I have to conclude
119
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:24,770
that the reason you don't engage
120
00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,250
with people you disagree with
121
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,360
is because you can't and
you might learn some facts.
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00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,170
Facts, miss lipstadt,
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00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,010
which don't suit your opinions.
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00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,170
Well? Well?
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00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,170
Mr. Irving,
I will not debate you.
126
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,410
Not here. Not now. Not ever.
127
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,290
So if you would please
just sit down
128
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:42,850
and you can go and speak
129
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,320
in another room at another time.
130
00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,050
You want gullible students
to believe
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00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,770
that there are mounds
of documents
132
00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,530
which prove a holocaust.
133
00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,720
You even said that
Hitler ordered it.
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00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,770
Well, I've got $1,000
135
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,570
in my pocket.
Yes, $1,000,
136
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,170
and I'm willing to
give that $1,000
137
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,800
to anyone, anyone,
who can show me a document
138
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,570
that proves that Hitler ordered
the killing of the Jews.
139
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,490
Here it is.
This is not your q&a.
140
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,320
You can go and
speak somewhere else.
141
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,930
Who pays for you
to write your books?
142
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,530
Gloria: I need
someone from security.
143
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,570
Who is it that finances
all your expensive trips...
144
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,960
Sit down. Mr. Irving!
Sit down or leave.
145
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,160
Gloria: Can you deal
with this guy?
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00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:24,890
Okay, step in.
147
00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,930
Ah, miss lipstadt
not only won't debate.
148
00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,730
She calls security
to stop me from debating.
149
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,810
No, leave it. Leave it. Guard:
I'm gonna need you to sit down.
150
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,370
Irving: So be it.
If anybody wants,
151
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,290
I shall be signing my books
after the event.
152
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:36,970
My books, they're free.
153
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,000
Come and get one.
154
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,090
Thank you.
155
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,280
$1,000! $1,000!
156
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,170
Irving: An example
of real history.
157
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:51,800
I hope you find it edifying.
158
00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,770
Real history opposed to
159
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,530
manufactured history
and sentimentalized.
160
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,480
Ah.
161
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,610
Irving: Today I've heard you
telling lies to students.
162
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,090
Speak in another room
at another time.
163
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,090
Irving: You want gullible
students to believe...
164
00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,320
Perfect.
165
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,090
Forbes-Watson: Deborah,
I'm glad you've called.
166
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,400
It's wonderful to hear from you.
167
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,610
I'm guessing you got our letter.
168
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,240
Deborah: It's why I'm calling.
169
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,170
Irving's just sent us notice of a
suit to be filed in the high court
170
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,120
because we've failed
to withdraw the book.
171
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:38,970
The high court?
The high court in London.
172
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,370
It's a libel suit.
173
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,290
He's saying you're part of a
concerted worldwide conspiracy
174
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,080
to rob him of his reputation
as a professional historian
175
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,170
and thereby of his livelihood.
176
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,000
I wish.
177
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:52,680
So what's the next step?
178
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,520
Next step is, you tell us
if you want to fight.
179
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,160
Male newsreader: A throng
with 400 skinheads, Neo-Nazis
180
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,930
and supporters of
extreme right-wing groups.
181
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,210
The British historian
David Irving,
182
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,520
speaking in German,
addressed the rally...
183
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,130
Male newsreader: Telling
them that Germans no longer
184
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,810
had anything to be ashamed of.
185
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,530
Praising Hitler's deputy,
Rudolf hess,
186
00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:56,240
as a German hero and a martyr.
187
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,600
According to
the evidence I've seen,
188
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,680
there were no gas chambers
anywhere at Auschwitz.
189
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,490
I'm dealing with Auschwitz
because it's the capital ship
190
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,410
of the whole holocaust campaign.
191
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,650
Now if Auschwitz sinks,
and it is, believe me,
192
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:19,360
a very leaky vessel indeed,
193
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,410
then the whole holocaust
campaign is in doubt.
194
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,840
Deborah: I've decided. I'm taking him on.
Libby: What?
195
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:33,570
Why are you letting
him get to you?
196
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,090
Nine-tenths of these things
don't even get to court.
197
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,690
They don't get to court 'cause
people settle. I can't settle.
198
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,770
The man's a liar.
Someone needs to say so.
199
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,290
What I don't get,
why has he chosen you?
200
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:44,400
Know what I think?
201
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,770
I have two essential
qualifications for David Irving.
202
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,520
I'm a woman and I'm a Jew.
203
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,770
He gets more bang for his buck.
204
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,570
So this is your book
on denial he's objecting to?
205
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,490
Correct.
Did you even mention Irving?
206
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,800
What did you say about him?
207
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,290
I think I called him
a Hitler partisan
208
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:01,570
who distorted evidence
209
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,490
in order to reach historically
untenable conclusions.
210
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,800
Okay, well, maybe you better
get yourself lawyered up.
211
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:22,610
Here you go.
212
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,130
You must be Anthony Julius.
213
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,680
And you must be
Deborah lipstadt.
214
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,680
Please.
215
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,610
Good of you to come all this way.
It's my pleasure.
216
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,690
And it's nice to combine
our meeting with a lecture.
217
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,320
Deborah: Anti-semitism
in the poetry of t.S. Eliot.
218
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,240
Yes, correct.
219
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,160
I'm looking forward
to hearing you speak.
220
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,730
You're not afraid of
taking on the big boys.
221
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:43,970
I try not to be.
222
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,080
In fact I was wondering
223
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,450
if it was my interest
in anti-semitism
224
00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,960
which made you consider
me to represent you.
225
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,810
In fact not.
Or if it was the Diana thing.
226
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,760
Uh, no.
227
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,010
Someone I know said to me,
228
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,330
"you need a junkyard dog
229
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,210
"and in england
that's Anthony Julius."
230
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,130
Right, right.
Junkyard dog...
231
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,090
Oh, someone who's gonna be
ferocious in court.
232
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,170
Oh, well, I'm afraid
I don't appear in court.
233
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,370
I prepare the case,
I don't present it.
234
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,330
In britain,
solicitor and barrister
235
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:11,680
are two quite
different functions.
236
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,850
And, uh, you mentioned
"the Diana thing." I...
237
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:17,770
I don't know what that is.
238
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,410
Diana is the...
Is the Princess of wales.
239
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,090
Well, yes, I know that.
240
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,650
I just don't know what
your connection to her is.
241
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:26,450
Uh, no, just, um,
242
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,320
that Diana needed a divorce
and I acted for her.
243
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:34,080
You represented her?
244
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:35,530
Yes, yes.
245
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,290
But I thought
you did defamation.
246
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:39,770
Well, you're quite right.
I... I...
247
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,290
I put that point
to Diana herself.
248
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,170
I said, "I've never handled
a divorce case before."
249
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,640
And she said,
"that's all right, Mr. Julius.
250
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,360
"I've never been
divorced before."
251
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,560
Interesting woman.
252
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:55,970
Anthony: Deborah,
I have to warn you
253
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,570
that there's a reason why he's
bringing the case in London.
254
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,890
I wondered about that.
Thank you very much.
255
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,200
You're welcome.
256
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,410
It's to his advantage.
257
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,610
Over here in America,
258
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,650
uh, if you're accused
of defaming someone,
259
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,080
then it's up to them to prove
that what you said is untrue.
260
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,570
In the uk, the reverse is true.
261
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,760
Wait. I have to prove
what I said was true?
262
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,320
Mmm. Correct. Yes, but
I'm the innocent party.
263
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,010
A man accuses you of something
264
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,170
and it's your job
to prove he's wrong?
265
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,170
It's against natural justice.
266
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,890
In the us there's
a presumption of innocence.
267
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,120
Yeah, not in the uk.
268
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:28,520
Tricky, isn't it?
269
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,440
So what do you know
about Mr. Irving?
270
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,570
Well, I've read
every word he's written.
271
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,200
I know some of
the personal stuff.
272
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,330
His father abandoned him
when he was four.
273
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,090
He fell in love with Hitler
when he was eight.
274
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,570
His brother said he used to run
around bombed-out buildings in London
275
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,330
during the blitz shouting,
"heil Hitler."
276
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,450
He's self-educated.
Extremely proud of it.
277
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,810
He learned his German
working in a factory.
278
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,570
I hear it's perfect.
Yeah. How's yours?
279
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:53,770
Adequate.
280
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,810
He wants it both ways,
Mr. Irving.
281
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,370
He wants to be the brilliant
Maverick, the provocateur
282
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,610
who comes along and reinvents
the second world war.
283
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,610
But he also wants respect,
284
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,840
the respect of his colleagues
in the club.
285
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,010
England's a club, Deborah,
and he wants to join.
286
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,370
But he's an anti-semite.
287
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,650
You'd be amazed how many military
historians see that as just a detail.
288
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,050
They see him
as a serious historian
289
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,290
who happens to see things
from Hitler's point of view.
290
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:18,490
Yeah, but it's not a detail.
291
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,290
You know, I think it's at the center
of everything he thinks and does.
292
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,850
So do I. Yeah. He's a liar
and a falsifier of history.
293
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,840
Yes, and this may be
the chance to say so.
294
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,370
My mother named me devorah.
295
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,730
You know what it means.
296
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,600
Leader. Defender
of her people.
297
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,210
Warrior.
298
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,690
There was an expectation
when I was a kid.
299
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,120
My mother always said
there was gonna be an event.
300
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,530
That I was picked out.
I was chosen.
301
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:49,680
Well, here it is.
302
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,040
Good morning.
I think we're expected.
303
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,200
Goodness me. Oh. Ah.
304
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,400
Ah, yes, hello,
delighted to see you.
305
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:17,730
I'm David Irving.
306
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,080
Here, take Jessica, please.
307
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,810
Darling, daddy's just going
to be busy for a minute.
308
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,650
Here we are.
A little treat for you.
309
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,890
Yes, open and...
310
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,960
What's it going to be?
A red one. Ooh-oh-oh.
311
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:33,930
Darling. Bye-bye.
312
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,730
You must be, uh, bringing me
miss lipstadt's documents.
313
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:39,930
James: Yes.
314
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,240
That's everything that
contributed to her analysis.
315
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,210
The full extent of her research.
316
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,050
Irving: You must be
her representatives.
317
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,410
Yes. I'm James libson
and, uh, this is miss Tyler.
318
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,730
She's our paralegal.
Paralegals indeed.
319
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,800
David against goliath, already.
320
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,410
You must work with the,
uh, famous Mr. Julius?
321
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:00,730
James: Yes.
322
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,410
Gonna be a fascinating
encounter, don't you think?
323
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,050
Fascinating.
324
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,610
You see, as I see it,
it's academia versus the rest.
325
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,850
Remember,
the greatest historians
326
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,840
have never been academics.
We're outsiders.
327
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,760
Cato, thucydides,
gibbon, Churchill...
328
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,730
I field a very strong team.
329
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:21,890
Perhaps you'd like a cup of tea?
330
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,600
Uh, no, thank you. There's just
one more thing before we leave.
331
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:26,920
You keep a diary?
332
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,250
Yes, yes, um...
333
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,090
We'd like to apply
to include the diary
334
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:32,840
in the process of discovery.
335
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:34,400
Hmm.
336
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:36,800
You... you're smiling.
337
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,170
Well, I don't much
fancy the prospect
338
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,850
of miss lipstadt poring over
my private writings.
339
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,130
Oh, no, no. Access would
be limited to us,
340
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,520
the legal team only.
341
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,480
Come.
342
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,450
I've kept a diary for 20 years.
343
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:05,080
I promise, I've nothing to hide.
344
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,320
But I doubt if even goliath
has the resources
345
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,840
to read between 10
and 20 million words.
346
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,250
Male reporter: And straightaway
you can see that perhaps tonight,
347
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,010
uh, gareth southgate
could be the toast of rio,
348
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,010
'cause villa are 2-1 up
349
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,730
at the home of the league
leaders, Leeds united.
350
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,840
Let's get the latest
on that now. Harry gration.
351
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:48,810
Gration: Yes, ray,
the new century
352
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,610
and a miracle has
just about happened.
353
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,240
Two goals from gareth southgate
354
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:53,800
have given villa
a richly deserved...
355
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,210
All right. That's five...
356
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,650
Cabbie: Yes. No,
that's too much. I need...
357
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:09,850
Okay.
Lovely.
358
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,480
Have a nice day. Bye.
Cheers, then.
359
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,680
Oh, thank you.
360
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,410
Anthony: Ah, here she is!
361
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,010
Here she is.
The client. The defendant.
362
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:45,960
All the way from Atlanta.
Anthony.
363
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,850
You sure you got enough people?
364
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,530
Well, we'll introduce you
to everyone as we go.
365
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,810
But for the moment,
everybody, Deborah lipstadt.
366
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,760
Say good morning.
All: Morning, Deborah.
367
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,960
Morning. I'm, uh, Richard Evans.
How do you do?
368
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,530
Hello.
How are you?
369
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,250
Richard is, uh, professor of
modern history at Cambridge.
370
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,050
Yes, I know. I know.
I asked for you specifically.
371
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,290
Oh, yes, of course.
372
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,090
Well, uh, Richard is gonna be one
of our eight expert witnesses.
373
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,200
It's a pleasure to meet you.
It's an honor.
374
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,120
Anthony. Ls that a...
375
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,090
Ls that a note
from the Princess?
376
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,770
Uh, yes, yes, his, yes, yes.
377
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,280
Hoping for
a similar result with you.
378
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,290
You wanna do to
the holocaust deniers
379
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:25,680
what you did to the monarchy?
380
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,530
Um... yeah. Sort of.
381
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,650
Well, I think we should argue
382
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,000
that David Irving
is not a real historian.
383
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:35,800
Oh, right. Well,
384
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,490
we'll be sure to
take that on board.
385
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,290
Thank you so much.
386
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,370
James. James is gonna talk you
through your legal options.
387
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,560
I'm, uh... I'm James libson.
I work with Anthony.
388
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,520
We've spoken.
Yes, yes, yes. Carry on.
389
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,090
James: So normally
there are, uh, three routes
390
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:51,370
that any libel defender
can take, okay?
391
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,970
So, first of all,
you can argue that
392
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,320
Irving is misinterpreting
the offending words.
393
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,490
Deborah: Mmm-hmm. However, since
at one point in your book
394
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,050
you say that Irving seems to conceive
of himself as continuing Hitler's work,
395
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,970
I don't think we can say
he's misinterpreting anything.
396
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,330
I don't think we can.
397
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:06,730
Nor can we take
the second route,
398
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,930
which would be just to say
that the offending words
399
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,650
aren't as offensive
as Irving makes out.
400
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,890
Oh, we can't take that route.
James: No, they're offensive.
401
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,880
I hope so.
God knows I tried to be.
402
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,050
Yeah. So really it does
just leave us with this one option.
403
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,650
We call this
the atom bomb defense.
404
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,130
That's the one
we're gonna go for.
405
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,650
We plead justification.
406
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,010
So even if the words
are defamatory,
407
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,890
they are still
nevertheless true.
408
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,970
Quite. Not every word. It
doesn't have to be every word.
409
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,770
We can get some things wrong.
But we do have to prove,
410
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,450
what we call
"the sting" of the libel.
411
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,250
We argue that Irving deliberately
subordinated the truth
412
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,010
in order to propagate
anti-semitism
413
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:38,960
and engender sympathy
for the third reich.
414
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,810
Assistant: More coffee?
Anthony: No, thank you.
415
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,410
Yeah.
Anthony: Um...
416
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,490
We are still left with the special
problem that we have in the uk
417
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,210
that the burden of proof
lies with the accused.
418
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,090
Um, I'd like you to listen to Laura.
Have you met Laura?
419
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:51,410
Miss lipstadt.
Hello.
420
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,810
Anthony: Uh, Laura's 23.
Uh, it's her first case.
421
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,410
We've just been discussing this very point.
Attack it, Laura.
422
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,570
We feel... Anthony feels,
oddly in this particular case,
423
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,050
the peculiarity
of the British law
424
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,080
can actually work to our advantage.
Yes. Say.
425
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,050
Laura: The first reaction
everyone has
426
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,810
when they hear about
this trial is horror.
427
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,370
Deborah:
More like disbelief. I mean,
428
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,930
a court of law has to be a
lousy place to judge history.
429
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,690
I must agree, as a historian.
430
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,440
They say, "my god,
are you serious?
431
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,170
"You sit down in a court and
some pompous English judge
432
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,890
"rules on whether
the holocaust happened?"
433
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,410
And let's think about this.
What if we lose? Huh?
434
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,330
It suddenly becomes acceptable,
it becomes respectable
435
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:27,890
to say the holocaust
didn't happen?
436
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,410
Has anyone thought about
what that will mean?
437
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,890
But the wonderful thing is, you
see, if we play this right,
438
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,290
it's not going to be Irving
putting the holocaust on trial.
439
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,330
No. It's going to be us
putting Irving on trial.
440
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:38,410
Laura's right.
Thank you.
441
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,970
Laura's very sound on this.
And if we focus on his lies,
442
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,010
and, equally important,
his motives for lying,
443
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,930
there's absolutely no reason we should have
to produce eyewitnesses to these horrors.
444
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,570
Wait a minute.
What do you mean,
445
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,090
that the survivors won't appear?
446
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,090
No, no, no.
No, we don't want them to.
447
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,250
You don't want their testimony?
448
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,490
Anthony: No.
Under no circumstances.
449
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,530
Why not? Why the hell not?
450
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,450
Because even to
let survivors appear
451
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,130
would be to legitimize
his right to question them.
452
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,650
Can I say something
453
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,280
before you go any further
with this strategy?
454
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,800
Yeah, please do.
455
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,130
You once said to me that this
trial might have implications
456
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,810
for the whole
of the Jewish people.
457
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,970
Now you're saying you won't
allow the Jews to speak?
458
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,090
James: Right,
I'll explain the thinking
459
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:25,210
just so you
understand the thinking.
460
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,930
Yes, please, I would love
to understand the thinking.
461
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,290
We believe that
Irving is planning
462
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,720
on being what we call
a litigant in person.
463
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,410
He plans to conduct
his own case.
464
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,570
What do you mean?
He's not hiring lawyers?
465
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,090
James: No. No, it'll be just him.
Imagine that.
466
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,050
David Irving, international
holocaust denier,
467
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,400
finally getting his hands
on a survivor. Imagine it.
468
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,650
The hurt. The damage.
The insult.
469
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,330
It's unthinkable.
He's not gonna have that.
470
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,050
I won't allow it.
I won't allow that to happen.
471
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,240
What are you gonna allow?
472
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,170
He keeps a diary.
He has done for years.
473
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,370
James: He told us
he had nothing to hide,
474
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,760
but we still had to subpoena
him to get hold of it.
475
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,970
What, you've spoken
to him in person?
476
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,010
James: Yes, yes, we have.
477
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,170
Deborah, the first rule of a good
defense is a strong offense.
478
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:09,650
First rule?
First rule of litigation,
479
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,330
whether you're prosecuting
or defending,
480
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:13,290
always run your case
as if you're prosecuting.
481
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,200
It's a good rule.
So that's why Laura
482
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,010
is leading this group of researchers here.
They joined last week.
483
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,970
Anthony: And they're gonna be
combing through all the diaries,
484
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,530
uh, locking in particular for any
contact with right-wing groups.
485
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,650
Neo-Nazis, skinheads,
anti-semites, ss revival groups,
486
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,250
all kinds of assorted riffraff.
487
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,050
And, just as important,
professor Evans here,
488
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,570
with his, um, his two
able graduate students,
489
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,880
Nik wachsman and Thomas, uh...
490
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,000
Thomas skelton-Robinson.
491
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:39,850
Evans: My team will be
doing the historiography.
492
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,730
Examining every published word
Irving ever wrote.
493
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,840
Checking sources,
comparing editions.
494
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,530
Generally testing the
reliability of his history.
495
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,370
Nik: You can't imagine
what fun we're having.
496
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,330
Thomas: We're gonna end up with
a charge sheet of inaccuracies
497
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:53,770
as long as your arm.
One mistake after another.
498
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,530
We think it'll take
about a year. Full-time.
499
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,400
Well, I'm glad that you guys
have got it all sewn up.
500
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,760
Anthony: We aim to.
501
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,600
Okay, well, thanks
very much, everyone.
502
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,080
As you know, uh,
503
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,080
we had been planning to
do everything for free.
504
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,850
But given the mounting
scale of the thing,
505
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,770
I think we may need to revisit
the question of charges.
506
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,880
Of course, if we lose,
507
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,730
the firm will be happy
to carry the cost.
508
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,000
But we will need some support.
509
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,090
So you are allowing me
to do something?
510
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,320
Um, I get to go fundraise?
511
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,770
Uh...
512
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,960
Yes, yes, if, um...
513
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,130
Whatever you can do.
514
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,640
Roger: I think people here do
have concerns about the trial.
515
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,080
The community's very keen
to support you.
516
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,200
All: Mmm-hmm.
I'm glad to hear it.
517
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,010
But we're also interested
to know what you're thinking.
518
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,690
Mr. Julius is
a very brilliant young man.
519
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,760
He is.
520
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,010
Can we speak frankly?
Please, please.
521
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,480
There's... there's some fear you
may have fallen under his spell.
522
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,890
Janine: You won't be
the first woman
523
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,680
to be attracted
to his intellect.
524
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:20,320
Diana.
525
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,690
So far, I've raised, um,
most of my funds back home.
526
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,280
Was that easy?
Deborah: It wasn't difficult.
527
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:34,970
Not as difficult as in London,
is that what you're saying?
528
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,330
There's a principle
and I've stuck to it.
529
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:39,560
No single source of finance.
530
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,840
There was one man, he offered
to pay for the whole thing.
531
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,920
But when the history of this
moment comes to be written,
532
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,930
I think it's important
many people gave, not one.
533
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,370
Roger: You talk about history.
534
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,490
Look at it from
our point of view.
535
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,640
We live with David Irving.
He's British.
536
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,040
And he's a has-been.
537
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,170
What's a trial gonna do?
538
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,880
It's gonna give him
a new lease of life.
539
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,690
Well, I can't help that
540
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,410
because I didn't bring
the prosecution.
541
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:06,440
He did.
No,
542
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,290
but you could prevent the
whole thing from happening.
543
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,760
Deborah: How would I do that?
Settle.
544
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,840
I mean it.
545
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,600
Sign some piece of paper.
Is that so terrible?
546
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,450
He's never gonna
give you Auschwitz, okay,
547
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,690
but, then, he's...
He's David Irving.
548
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:24,810
We've lived with worse.
549
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,600
And what would you
want me to settle for?
550
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,050
Four million dead? Three? One?
551
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,880
What number would you
be comfortable with?
552
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,090
Here in england, you may
like appeasement, but I don't.
553
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:37,370
I don't think you should be
using a word like appeasement.
554
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:38,850
No? Then what word
should I use?
555
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,240
All we're saying,
beware of Anthony Julius.
556
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,400
He does these things
for his own glory.
557
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,690
Other women have been
in his pocket
558
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,530
and found it an uncomfortable
place to be.
559
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,970
Oh, well, if it's
pockets we're talking about,
560
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,040
maybe you can explain why the British
find theirs so hard to open.
561
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,960
Female reporter: The area
forecast for the next 24 hours.
562
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,280
Viking,
north and south utsire, 40.
563
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,920
Southwesterly,
veering northwesterly,
564
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,730
6 to Gale 8,
perhaps severe Gale 9 later.
565
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,650
Rain, wintry showers,
moderate or full...
566
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,890
Deborah: I had
a hellish night last night.
567
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,090
I couldn't sleep.
I was so angry.
568
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,330
Really? Why?
569
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,570
I had dinner last
night with some
570
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,490
leaders of the Jewish community.
571
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,690
Anthony: Oh,
the community, huh?
572
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,930
And did the community tell you it would
suit them better if you dropped the case?
573
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,690
Deborah: I was defending you.
574
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,170
I'm sure you did
a very good job.
575
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,880
Maybe you should
take it up professionally.
576
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,090
Deborah: They think you took
this case for your own glory.
577
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,930
Glory? Gosh. I hadn't
thought about glory.
578
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,480
Glory? Fascinating. So what
did they give you to eat?
579
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,800
I don't understand this thing, I really
don't. Anthony: Oh, here we are.
580
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,930
Richard rampton,
Deborah lipstadt.
581
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,200
Ah!
582
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,240
"'Tis the author
of our misfortune."
583
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,970
Please, please, please, come in.
584
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,570
Come in and warm yourself.
585
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,970
Hi.
Hello.
586
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,610
Richard will be
your leading counsel.
587
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:26,970
I've explained to
Deborah the difference
588
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,360
between barrister and solicitor.
589
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,450
Our legal system seems forbidding
but it works, I think.
590
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,050
If your legal system worked,
I wouldn't be in this mess.
591
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,650
I don't mind dickensian,
592
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,680
it's kafkaesque I'm worried about.
593
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,450
And this is our junior
counsel, Heather Rogers.
594
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,680
How are you?
Hi, Heather.
595
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,490
Look, I've....
I've just opened up
596
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,330
this rather
decent bottle of red.
597
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:48,560
Hope you don't mind plastic?
598
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,450
No, Richard,
I'm not gonna drink.
599
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,440
I haven't eaten.
And Deborah hasn't slept.
600
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,170
No, I'll taste the wine.
Why not?
601
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,920
Everything else is
being decided for me.
602
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,450
Yes, so Heather and I have been
introducing ourselves to the subject.
603
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,480
Hmm. I can see that.
A little light reading.
604
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,240
Deborah: Oh, is this you?
605
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,560
You catch fish?
606
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Yes, I do.
607
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,400
And how's your German?
608
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,290
Ah, you see?
Just like a barrister.
609
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,650
Go straight to my weak point.
610
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,530
Um, well, I know the libretto
to the magic flute.
611
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,330
That's, uh... that's all
the German I have.
612
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,210
It's probably not very useful
in our forthcoming encounter.
613
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,250
Anyway, cheers.
614
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,280
Cheers.
615
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,920
Cheers, Heather.
616
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,680
Yes, I was going to get on
with my life of Mozart,
617
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,000
- but I shall have to postpone.
- Again.
618
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,730
Richard is the most skillful
advocate in the country.
619
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,090
I don't mind saying it.
620
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,090
Yes, well,
in this case I wish I...
621
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,800
I wish I thought
skill were enough.
622
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,960
Deborah: What else
do you need?
623
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,440
A rarer quality.
624
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,280
Such as?
625
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,090
Appetite.
626
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,490
Plainly, I shall have
to go to Auschwitz
627
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,570
and I would be very grateful
if you would accompany me.
628
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,090
Why do you need
to go to Auschwitz?
629
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,320
Legal reasons.
630
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,090
Deborah: Ls he coming?
631
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,410
He wants us here, and then
he doesn't show up.
632
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,250
He's late, that's all.
He's often late.
633
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,640
Is he late for court?
634
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,160
Richard: Morning, everyone.
635
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,810
You must be professor Van pelt?
Lam.
636
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,960
Good. So, uh, let's
get down to business.
637
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,640
Heather. Deborah.
638
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,090
I suggest we start
by taking a walk
639
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,770
around the perimeter fence.
640
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:24,800
Yeah, I just did that.
641
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,530
Good. Then let's
look at the plans. Omer?
642
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,120
I want you to understand
the scale of the operation.
643
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,930
What we are looking at here
is one of the largest
644
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,890
and most efficient killing
machines in human history.
645
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,250
Yeah. Yes, we know what it is.
It's how we prove what it is,
646
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:40,410
that's what we're interested in.
647
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,770
We're not here on a pilgrimage,
we're preparing a case.
648
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,320
Okay.
649
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,520
These are the remains
of crematorium ll.
650
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,210
The buildings were deliberately
demolished by the Germans
651
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,250
in the Autumn of 1944
652
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,480
to destroy the evidence
of what they did here.
653
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,360
They dynamited them again
654
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,600
one week before
the end of the war.
655
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,800
These steps led down
into the undressing room.
656
00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:21,520
The olére drawings, please.
657
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,850
David olére was
a French artist. A survivor.
658
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,320
He was able to draw
a lot of what he saw here.
659
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,880
He made a drawing
of this arrangement here.
660
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,320
These are the steps
in the drawing.
661
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,810
Then they were led through here,
662
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,650
past a sign that said,
"to the baths"
663
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,160
and into the gas chamber...
664
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,560
Here.
665
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,040
Please watch your step.
Tread carefully.
666
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,320
This is a shrine.
667
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,490
What we are standing on here
668
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,490
is all that remains
of the gas chamber itself.
669
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,120
This was the roof.
670
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,570
The chamber was
right under here.
671
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,880
Under our feet.
672
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,040
The doors were locked and
cyanide crystals, zyklon-b,
673
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,810
were poured in on them
through holes in the roof.
674
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,160
One, two, three, four.
675
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,800
Ow! Shit.
676
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:18,760
It... it's okay.
677
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,410
Van pelt: Now here are
the delousing chambers.
678
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,290
Typhus was a terrible
problem in the camp
679
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,130
and the lice that carried it
had to be destroyed.
680
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,450
Right, now we get to it.
681
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,730
So we need to
talk about leuchter.
682
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,680
Yes, I'm coming to leuchter.
Yeah.
683
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,930
Van pelt: This building was used to
delouse the prisoners' clothing.
684
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,290
They used zyklon-b
for that, too.
685
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,040
To kill the lice.
686
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,400
Richard: We know that?
Yes.
687
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,650
Richard: For sure?
You have proof?
688
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,450
We can't take
anything for granted.
689
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:21,570
I need to see the proof.
690
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,170
Van pelt: Yes,
I can give you proof.
691
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,250
However, in February 1988,
692
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,370
a holocaust denier called Ernst
zundel sent Fred leuchter,
693
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,690
an engineer and self-styled
execution expert from America,
694
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,490
to test in different
parts of the camp
695
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,130
for evidence of poison gas
in the brickwork.
696
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,970
Traces of hydrogen cyanide, hcn.
697
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,120
The blue stains here
698
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,850
and here.
699
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,530
He came with a chisel?
700
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,130
Van felt: That's fight.
701
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,250
And he hacked away...
Correct.
702
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,050
Illegally,
without any permission
703
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,570
from the authorities,
704
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,570
and then he smuggled the pieces
out of Poland in his suitcase,
705
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,120
wrapped in his dirty underwear.
706
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,970
Be that as it may.
We can criticize his methods,
707
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,120
but it's his conclusions
we have to discredit.
708
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,730
Van pelt: He found
higher levels of hcn
709
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,410
here in the delousing chambers
710
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,690
than he did in
the gas chambers themselves.
711
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:16,290
From this he concluded that
712
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,490
no human beings
were killed at Auschwitz.
713
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,720
Only...
Only lice were killed.
714
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,040
Why are we talking
about leuchter?
715
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,690
I mean, he's really not worth
the paper he's written on.
716
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:29,850
Well, so you say.
Now say why.
717
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,210
I'll tell you why.
718
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:34,050
Because of course there was a
higher concentration in here.
719
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,570
It takes 20 times more cyanide
720
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,090
to kill lice than it
does human beings.
721
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,930
Twenty times! Just
leuchter didn't know that.
722
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,530
Richard: Oh, this whole thing
is infuriating.
723
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,400
I know.
It beggars belief.
724
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,450
Why has there not been a proper
scientific study of this whole site?
725
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,210
By reputable scientists?
726
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,000
Fifty years since the fact?
727
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,050
I mean, it's ridiculous.
728
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,330
Where's the proof?
Where's the evidence?
729
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:00,530
I need to know that.
730
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,770
You know what? This is a place
where you show respect.
731
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,890
Whoever you are,
you show respect.
732
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,490
I have to ask
some more questions.
733
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,960
Would you be happier outside?
734
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:11,250
What proof is there
735
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,000
that leuchter's conclusions
are wrong?
736
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,200
I thought we weren't
gonna try the holocaust.
737
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,890
We're not. I thought we
weren't gonna debate,
738
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,250
"did the holocaust happen?"
739
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,570
That's what we agreed, Heather.
740
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,090
That's what we agreed.
741
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,970
He's asking questions,
that's all.
742
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,800
He has to ask questions.
743
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,130
This isn't about memorializing,
744
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,680
it's about forensics.
745
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,040
God full of mercy
who dwells in the heights,
746
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:14,680
provide a sure rest upon
the divine presence's wings,
747
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,970
in the realm of the holy,
pure and glorious...
748
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,570
Van pelt: Pure and glorious,
749
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,120
both: Whose shining
resembles the sky.
750
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,040
Richard: I, um,
bought you a drink.
751
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:01,530
I thought you might need it.
752
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,290
Thanks. I think I do.
753
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:08,960
You get what you wanted
from the visit?
754
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,330
Deborah, you mustn't
characterize me
755
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:14,800
as being without feelings.
756
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,000
I have feelings.
What did you feel today?
757
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,120
Oh.
758
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,120
Shame.
759
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,650
I have this terrible fear
that if I'd have been ordered
760
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,120
to do some of the things
we saw today that...
761
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:37,360
That I would have agreed.
762
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,160
Out of weakness.
763
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,450
Well, that is honest
of you to say so.
764
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,330
Well, that's how it is.
The world is full of cowards
765
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,040
and I've always had
this nervous feeling that...
766
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,640
That I was one of them.
767
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,250
There's this line from goethe,
768
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,570
"der fiege droht nur,
wo er sicher ist."
769
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,930
It means,
"the coward only threatens
770
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,480
"when he feels secure."
771
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,840
I thought you didn't speak German.
Hmm.
772
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,330
You learned German
in the last year?
773
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,810
Well, I had to master
all these documents.
774
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,890
Irving had a 40-year
start on me,
775
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,050
so I had to catch up.
776
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,160
Did you?
777
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,800
No.
778
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,360
You know, you haven't
taken my statement yet.
779
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,480
No. No, I...
Why is that?
780
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,280
No. Why? Anthony
didn't talk to you?
781
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,520
Well, um, we made
a couple of decisions.
782
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,450
Uh, the first was that we don't
want to put this case to a jury.
783
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,880
We think it'll be safer
to put it to a judge.
784
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,410
A single judge?
Yeah.
785
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,770
What, the whole thing
decided by one man?
786
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,290
Is that a good idea?
787
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,200
Well, we were worried
about the kind of antics
788
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,730
that Irving might get up
to with an audience of 12.
789
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,570
I'm surprised it's our choice.
790
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,080
Well, it isn't.
He has to agree.
791
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:03,640
Why would he do that?
792
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,450
We have a notion.
793
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:08,360
Mmm.
794
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,410
And the other one?
I'm sorry?
795
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,090
Well, you said
a couple of decisions.
796
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:16,400
Yes, well, um...
797
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,520
We decided,
Anthony and I, that, um,
798
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,720
it would be better
if you didn't testify.
799
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,090
Excuse me?
Well, that's it. We...
800
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,840
We don't believe
you should testify.
801
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,410
Why?
802
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,370
Because you don't trust me?
No. No, not at all.
803
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,080
You think I'm gonna
get emotional?
804
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,280
Well, I... after today...
805
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,720
Richard, we were at Auschwitz.
806
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,770
Let me remind you that I teach,
807
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:52,410
I lecture,
I talk to the press...
808
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,210
I know.
I order ideas.
809
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:55,930
It's what I do.
It's what I'm good at.
810
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,570
You... you don't need
to protect me.
811
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,170
No, we're not protecting you.
812
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,800
We're protecting our case.
813
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,840
Our strategy is to keep the focus
on Irving and Irving alone.
814
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,010
It's not a test of your
credibility, it's a test of his.
815
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,970
You don't think I'm good enough.
816
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,040
No, no, no.
I didn't say that at all.
817
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,120
Everything you have to say,
you've said in your book.
818
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,930
Our task is to starve Irving,
819
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,640
and putting you in a witness
box would feed him.
820
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,640
This case is happening to you,
821
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,370
but it's not about you.
822
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,130
This man hates me.
He's coming for me.
823
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,920
And when someone
comes after you,
824
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:34,480
you take 'em on.
825
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:40,960
You know what people will say?
826
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,090
Yes, I think I do.
They'll say I'm a coward.
827
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,570
That I was too afraid
to go on the stand
828
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:46,970
because I thought I would lose.
Yeah.
829
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,320
That's what they'll say. And
you want me to live with that?
830
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,130
It's the price you pay
for winning.
831
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,050
Anthony:
Uh, just one question, sir.
832
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,080
Trench: What is it?
833
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,450
Anthony: Uh, on our side,
834
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,610
we're beginning to feel
that for the layman
835
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,770
this particular subject
may represent
836
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,210
an impossible challenge.
837
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,840
I see. You're asking to
dispense with a jury? We are.
838
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,090
Have you asked
Mr. Irving his views?
839
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,210
Mr. Irving?
Well, um...
840
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:22,650
Perhaps before
Mr. Irving speaks?
841
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:23,880
Trench: Yes, go ahead.
842
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,930
We all know Mr. Irving
has devoted his life
843
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,880
to the study of the third reich.
844
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,690
I admit myself to having
sometimes struggled
845
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:34,050
with the demands
of the material.
846
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,050
I wonder if Mr. Irving
really believes it's fair
847
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,210
to ask the regular Joe or Joan
who walks in from the street
848
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:40,610
to grasp in a mere few weeks
849
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,400
what he himself has taken
a lifetime to master.
850
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:49,600
I agree.
851
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,250
The issues before the court
are sufficiently complex
852
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,210
to require the attention
of a learned judge,
853
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:58,810
and too complex
to confront a jury with.
854
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:01,650
Are you sure, Mr. Irving?
855
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,040
Quite sure.
856
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,080
Trial by judge
alone it is, then.
857
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,000
Thank you very much, sir.
858
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,090
Reporter 1: This morning
we'll see the beginning
859
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,810
of an extraordinary case
in which...
860
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,330
Reporter 2: Question the evidence
for the mass killing of Jewish people
861
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:40,770
at Auschwitz during
the second world war.
862
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,760
Including the movie
director, Steven Spielberg,
863
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,090
are paying
for miss lipstadt's defense.
864
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,090
Reporter 3:
Mr. Irving is rumored to have
865
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,600
a list of around
4,000 contributors...
866
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:51,930
Reporter 4: Miss lipstadt's
book, in which she refers
867
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,770
to Mr. Irving as
a holocaust denier.
868
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:56,930
Morning, Deborah. Morning.
869
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,290
I didn't want you
to go in alone.
870
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,130
Sweet of you.
It's not sweet at all.
871
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,610
I just wanted to make sure
you didn't speak.
872
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,130
It's a short statement.
No, no, no. This way.
873
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:05,730
Come on.
Reporter: Professor!
874
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,530
Julie McCarthy, npr.
A quick word.
875
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,320
We need to hear your voice.
876
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,770
Deborah: It's Julie McCarthy, npr.
We need to hear your voice.
877
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,960
Just a quick word.
Lying Jewish bitch!
878
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,210
You think it all finished
with Hitler? It didn't.
879
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:20,850
We know which hotel you're in.
We know your room.
880
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,400
You think you're safe.
Well, you're not.
881
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,170
Irving: Morning. Morning,
everyone. Morning, everyone.
882
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,650
Good morning, everyone.
I'm looking forward to this.
883
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,010
May I say a few words?
884
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:45,800
Well, obviously...
885
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,210
Do you see that? He's gonna be
all over the front pages.
886
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:57,370
Deborah, there's only one person
that matters and that's the judge.
887
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,490
If you don't speak in court
and you do speak to the press,
888
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,650
the judge is gonna be
furious and with just cause.
889
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,840
And we both know what
would solve that problem.
890
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,930
Another thing. You jog
the same way every day.
891
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:09,640
Don't.
892
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,610
What are you saying?
I'm not saying anything.
893
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,850
I'm just saying,
vary your route. Come on.
894
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,050
Vary my route?
895
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,410
Stay with her.
896
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,730
Angry man: What, you think
you can get away with it?
897
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,610
Janet:
Let's have some order!
898
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,650
Please. Press in
the public gallery.
899
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,250
Front two rows.
Take the door on the left.
900
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:26,850
Hello, Nik.
Janet
901
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,490
general public upstairs. General
public upstairs. Thank you.
902
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,130
Let the defendant
through, please.
903
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,280
This way, miss lipstadt.
Thank you, clive.
904
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,290
They were lively.
Yes.
905
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,600
How are you? All right?
Deborah: Fine, fine.
906
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,440
Janet: Just through here.
907
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,250
This is me?
This is you.
908
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,920
Good morning. Good morning.
909
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,210
Man 1: Morning, Mr. Irving.
Irving: Good morning.
910
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:58,530
Man 2: Good morning.
Irving: Morning.
911
00:49:58,560 --> 00:49:59,850
Man 3: Good morning.
Good morning.
912
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:01,040
Morning.
913
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,730
Good morning. I'll just
take that for you.
914
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:08,840
Thank you.
There we are.
915
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,840
As advertised.
David and goliath.
916
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,640
Clerk: They're ready, my lord.
917
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,330
Janet: Silence!
918
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:57,650
Court rise!
919
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:01,930
Anthony: Bow.
920
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,800
- Bow.
- I'm American.
921
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,770
Everything else but no bowing.
922
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:18,200
Irving: My lord...
923
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,130
I intend to show that far from
being a holocaust denier,
924
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,890
I have repeatedly
drawn attention
925
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,810
to major aspects
of the holocaust.
926
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,650
These defendants
have done very real damage
927
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,810
to my professional existence.
928
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,650
By virtue of the activities
of miss lipstadt
929
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,490
and those who funded her
and guided her hand,
930
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,490
since 1996
931
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,610
I have seen one fearful publisher
after another falling away from me
932
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,120
and turning their backs
on me as I approach.
933
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:50,840
My lord,
934
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,330
if we were to seek a title
for this libel action,
935
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,000
I would venture to suggest
pictures at an execution.
936
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,210
My execution.
937
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,720
The word "denier"
is particularly evil.
938
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,610
For the chosen victim
939
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,880
it is like being called
a wife beater or a pedophile.
940
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,410
It is enough for the label
to be attached
941
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,410
for the attachee to
be designated a pariah,
942
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,800
an outcast from normal society.
943
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,240
It is a verbal yellow star.
944
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:33,570
Laura:
So, what did you think of him?
945
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,130
I thought he was oddly impressive.
Did you?
946
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:37,410
Irving:
Well, did you enjoy it?
947
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,040
Look, there he is.
Look, still at it.
948
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,250
Deborah: It was confusing. It was like
he already knew all of our questions.
949
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,600
Anthony: Well, yes, of course he does.
We sent them to him.
950
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,410
What? You sent him our
questions in advance? What...
951
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,370
Why would you give away
our strategy?
952
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,360
Deborah, there is no strategy.
953
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,240
We're gonna box him in
with the truth.
954
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:58,890
Richard: My lord,
955
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,600
Mr. Irving calls himself
a historian.
956
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,680
The truth is, however, that
he is not a historian at all.
957
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,440
He is a falsifier of history.
958
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,280
To put it bluntly, he is a liar.
959
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,290
Now, between the publication
960
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,800
of the first edition
of Hitler's war in 1977,
961
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,890
and the second edition in 1991,
962
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,290
Mr. Irving's view
of the holocaust
963
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,800
underwent a sea change.
964
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,170
In the 1977 version,
965
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,800
he accepted it as historical
truth in all its essentials.
966
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,080
But in the 1991 edition,
967
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,600
all traces of the holocaust
had disappeared.
968
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:52,760
So, what are the reasons for
this astounding volte-face?
969
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,810
Well, the principle reason
can be expressed
970
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,080
in one word, leuchter.
971
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:00,570
Hmm.
972
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,090
Now, according to Mr. Irving,
the leuchter report is,
973
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:06,970
"the biggest caliber shell
974
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,120
"that has yet hit
the battleship Auschwitz."
975
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,440
Unfortunately for Mr. Irving,
976
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,530
the leuchter report is bunk
and he knows it.
977
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,970
So why did Mr. Irving
978
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,650
embrace the leuchter report
with such enthusiasm?
979
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,850
Why did he choose
to publish it himself
980
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,600
and even to write
an introduction?
981
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,000
Well, the answer must be
982
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,120
that he wanted it to be true.
983
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,650
After all, if the holocaust
hadn't happened,
984
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,450
Hitler couldn't have
ordered it or known about it.
985
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:42,970
And that's the point.
986
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,410
Shh. Please.
Please, just...
987
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,130
That was a very good start.
988
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,410
Mmm, I'm glad you're happy.
989
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,490
I saw his face when
you called him a liar.
990
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,650
I don't think he's used
to hearing things like that.
991
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,090
No, I don't think he is.
Excuse me. Miss lipstadt?
992
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,130
Yes, that's me.
May I speak to you?
993
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,760
Yes. Um, could you give
us a minute, please?
994
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,250
I would like you to come and
meet some of my friends.
995
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,040
Friends with
something in common.
996
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,040
Would you like to sit?
997
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:28,560
We want to know, how can
you let this happen?
998
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,400
None of us have been called.
We have to be heard.
999
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:35,010
A trial of the holocaust
and no witnesses?
1000
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:36,690
How can that be right?
1001
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,130
There is a whole group of us.
1002
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,810
Deborah, we have to testify.
We have to.
1003
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,160
On behalf of the others.
For the dead.
1004
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:56,770
I make you a promise.
1005
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,320
The voice of suffering
will be heard.
1006
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,120
I promise you that.
1007
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:12,410
I was looking
at Irving all the time.
1008
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,730
Yeah, me too. Couldn't
take my eyes off him.
1009
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:15,890
He is kind of
riveting, isn't he?
1010
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,770
Oh, I think this could
well become a ritual.
1011
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,610
A welcome one, don't misunderstand me.
1012
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,770
Deborah? Not for me, thanks.
1013
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,970
You know, a very famous attorney
general once told me a long time ago
1014
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,170
that one would become a much
more effective advocate...
1015
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:30,330
Can we talk privately?
1016
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:31,450
Richard: After a few
glasses of claret.
1017
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,410
And, of course, sandwiches.
1018
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:36,690
Thomas: Ah!
1019
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:37,770
Nik: Bravo.
1020
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:38,850
Heather: They're always
in the cupboard.
1021
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:40,370
Richard: I have, uh,
cheese sandwiches...
1022
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,320
I just talked to a survivor.
1023
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,050
Yeah, well, that's likely.
1024
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,960
There's several
of them in the court.
1025
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,680
Deborah, we're not gonna
discuss this again.
1026
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:51,970
Why not?
I've explained to you.
1027
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:53,330
Well, tell me again, Anthony.
1028
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,520
Whatever you say, the
survivors are not on trial.
1029
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:56,690
That's the end of it.
1030
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:58,160
They confuse the issue.
1031
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,050
Oh, so you can look
a survivor in the face
1032
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,770
and you can tell her she's
not allowed to speak?
1033
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,840
You can do that? Because I can't.
I can't do it.
1034
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,130
Anthony: Deborah, these people
have been through hell.
1035
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,360
I understand that.
1036
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:08,850
After all these years,
1037
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,610
they haven't been able
to process the experience.
1038
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:11,680
I understand that, too.
1039
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,000
But a trial, I'm afraid,
is not therapy.
1040
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,530
It's not my job to give
emotional satisfaction
1041
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:18,930
to a whole group of people
1042
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:20,760
who can never forget
what happened to them.
1043
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,520
You think they wanna
testify for themselves?
1044
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,050
It's not for themselves
they wanna testify.
1045
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,040
They wanna give voice to the
ones that didn't make it.
1046
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,810
To their families,
their friends.
1047
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,690
Anthony, I... I promised that
their voice would be heard.
1048
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:42,920
I promised.
1049
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:45,890
Well, then you'd better
go back out there
1050
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:47,490
and break your promise.
1051
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:20,640
Irving: Professor Van pelt.
1052
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,570
May I first of all
welcome you to our country
1053
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,320
and say what a great
pleasure I had
1054
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,440
in reading your book
on Auschwitz.
1055
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,930
You were deeply moved to
visit the actual location?
1056
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,450
More than moved.
I was frightened.
1057
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,560
It's an awesome responsibility.
1058
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:39,250
Irving: Professor,
would you agree
1059
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,890
it is the duty of historians
1060
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,760
to remain completely
unemotional?
1061
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,840
One's duty is to be unemotional,
1062
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:49,610
to be objective,
1063
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,290
but one's duty, I think,
1064
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,970
is to remain human
in the exercise.
1065
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:58,850
Irving: Can you explain
to the court, please,
1066
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,600
why it is in the very earliest
references to Auschwitz,
1067
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:04,170
published by the Russians
1068
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,730
after the capture of the
camp in January 1945,
1069
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,290
there is no reference whatsoever
1070
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,970
to the discovery
of gas chambers?
1071
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:15,120
Uh, I would need to see the
documents you refer to.
1072
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,240
Well, that's fair, I think.
1073
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:19,800
It is fair, my lord.
1074
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,610
Your report quotes extensively
1075
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,090
from firsthand testimony
1076
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,040
of a man called tauber.
1077
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,610
Yes. Uh, tauber was
a sonderkommando
1078
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,290
in crematorium ll.
1079
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:35,890
He helped with the prisoners.
1080
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,610
He was interrogated
at the end of may 1945.
1081
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,080
And, in his document,
1082
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,440
what does tauber tell us about
the liquidation procedure?
1083
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,280
The... the simulation,
please?
1084
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,840
What he describes is the underground
arrangement of the crematorium.
1085
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,650
The entrance was through
an undressing room.
1086
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,530
The prisoners went
into a corridor,
1087
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,370
and then through
a door on the right
1088
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,480
into the gas chamber.
1089
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,490
The door was closed hermetically
1090
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,680
by means of iron bars
which were screwed tight.
1091
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:14,650
The roof of the gas chamber
1092
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,330
was supported by concrete
columns and wire mesh pillars.
1093
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:19,600
Irving: Professor?
1094
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,330
In your simulation,
1095
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,250
that is the roof
in this big photograph here?
1096
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:26,280
Uh, yes.
1097
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,200
Irving:
It is the self-same roof?
1098
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:30,650
Van felt: Yes.
1099
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,850
Uh, tauber says
the sides of these pillars,
1100
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,490
which went up through the roof,
1101
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,040
were of heavy
wire mesh, like this.
1102
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:41,970
What does it mean
when it says that
1103
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,600
the pillars
went up through the roof?
1104
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,960
Went up to the roof, presumably?
1105
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,560
Yes, but they popped
out, uh, above the roof.
1106
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,090
The pillars "popped out"?
1107
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,050
Van pelt: The pillars went
through a hole in the roof
1108
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,570
and the earth, which was
arranged on top of the roof,
1109
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,490
and then there was a little,
kind of, chimney on top of that.
1110
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,050
Irving: What was
the purpose of that,
1111
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:03,360
architecturally speaking?
1112
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,370
Because these
were hollow pillars
1113
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,770
and these were the pillars
1114
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,730
in which the
crystals of zyklon-b
1115
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,760
were inserted into
the gas chamber.
1116
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,090
My lord, you can see the layout.
1117
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,650
You can see the pillars with
1118
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,440
the wire mesh columns
next to them.
1119
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:22,320
You have drawn in
1120
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,400
those wire mesh columns,
have you not?
1121
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,210
In the sketches
and on the computer?
1122
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,450
One of my students did, yes.
1123
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,760
But the wire mesh
is an addition,
1124
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:35,840
it is not based on drawings
1125
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:37,450
and blueprints, is it?
1126
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,680
It is based on the
drawing made by the man
1127
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,530
who actually made these pillars.
1128
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,610
Michael kula.
In the camp workshop.
1129
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:44,640
Irving: And this hole
1130
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,930
in the roof, or these holes,
1131
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,040
how many wire mesh columns
were there? Four?
1132
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,050
Uh... one, two,
three, four.
1133
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,800
Professor pelt, we are wasting
our time, really, are we not?
1134
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:03,040
You yourself have
stood on that roof
1135
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,890
and looked for those holes
and not found them.
1136
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,250
Our experts have stood on
that roof and not found them.
1137
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,490
My lord, there are no
holes in that roof.
1138
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:14,530
There never were any holes.
1139
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:18,170
Therefore they cannot have poured
cyanide capsules through that roof.
1140
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,490
You will appreciate,
1141
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,680
if there had been
those holes in that roof,
1142
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,890
which are the cardinal linchpin
of the defense in this action,
1143
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,320
they would have found them by now.
They have not found them!
1144
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,970
And all the eyewitnesses
on whom he relies
1145
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,400
are therefore exposed
as the liars that they are.
1146
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:40,040
Uh, my lord,
it is now 3:56.
1147
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:42,970
Unless Mr. rampton
wishes to say
1148
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:44,370
something to
repair the damage...
1149
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:45,840
My lord, may I respond to this?
1150
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,970
You may.
But not until tomorrow.
1151
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:51,050
Janet: Court rise.
1152
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:54,490
Anthony: Just walk.
1153
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:55,810
Say nothing. The trial took
an extraordinary turn...
1154
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,610
Why did rampton drop it?
Why did he let it go?
1155
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:00,170
Deborah, there are
journalists everywhere.
1156
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,290
Just look straight ahead
and keep walking, please.
1157
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,450
Richard, can we get
some of your time, please?
1158
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,370
I don't have much time now.
It won't take long.
1159
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,680
We have an unhappy client.
Okay, yes.
1160
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:10,850
Deborah, this is disastrous.
1161
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:12,210
I'm sorry. I'm going to
have to take her. I know.
1162
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:13,330
I'm so sorry.
1163
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:14,730
Reporter 3: A major
setback for the defense
1164
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:16,720
who are now at the bottom
of an uphill struggle.
1165
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,330
Let's all calm down, please.
Try not to panic.
1166
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,930
Irving pulled a rabbit
out of the hat at 3:55.
1167
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:23,930
He thinks it's clever.
It isn't clever.
1168
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:25,290
No, it's not clever.
It's amateur dramatics.
1169
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:26,530
It doesn't mean
it's not effective.
1170
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:27,850
Richard is gonna
deal with this tomorrow.
1171
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,330
Look at these, look at these.
Not that one.
1172
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:30,570
I've looked at them.
I've seen them.
1173
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,690
I know them. Look.Look.
Perfectly clear.
1174
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,890
The olere drawings. The us
air force aerial photo.
1175
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:37,920
And there they are.
I know these photos.
1176
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:39,890
I don't need to look at them.
Holes in all of them, Deborah.
1177
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,090
Look, look, look.
Same shape, same pattern.
1178
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,250
One, two, three, four.
1179
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,170
Deborah: And you know
what Irving is gonna say?
1180
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:48,370
Irving's gonna say,
"they're not holes.
1181
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:49,730
"They're shadows,
they're forgeries,
1182
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:50,890
"they're glitches
on the negative,
1183
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:52,530
"they're paint cans
on the roof."
1184
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,330
Yes, and it's our job
to prove otherwise.
1185
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,170
But how are you gonna do that?
Anyway, it's too late.
1186
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:58,010
It's already out there.
It's in the press.
1187
01:03:58,040 --> 01:03:59,890
Anthony: Oh, it's in the press?
So what it's in the press?
1188
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:01,730
Deborah: So Irving got
what he came for.
1189
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:03,720
You know, he wanted
headlines, he got 'em.
1190
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:05,410
"No holes,
no holocaust!"
1191
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:06,970
He wanted a catchy
phrase, he's got it.
1192
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,970
It's gonna... it's gonna
spread like a virus.
1193
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,050
Laura: Do you want tea?
1194
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:11,730
Deborah: No, I don't want tea.
Just asking.
1195
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:13,250
Don't you see what he's doing?
1196
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:14,850
He's making it
respectable to say
1197
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,200
that there are
two points of view.
1198
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:18,250
People are gonna
see the news now
1199
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:19,570
and they're gonna think,
"oh, okay.
1200
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,730
"Some people think there were
gas chambers at Auschwitz,
1201
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,090
"and, oh, this is interesting,
some people don't."
1202
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,690
Yes, but Deborah, you know why he
chose Auschwitz in the first place.
1203
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,730
Deborah: Why he chose Auschwitz?
Because everybody heard of it.
1204
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:30,370
Because of its emotional impact.
No.
1205
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,530
Because“. I don't know.
What are you getting at?
1206
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,490
No. Because it wasn't built
as an extermination camp.
1207
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:35,770
It was built as a labor camp.
1208
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:37,410
I know that.
James: Then it was modified.
1209
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:38,490
Yes, I know that.
1210
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:39,850
That's why he's going after it.
1211
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,250
It's a battering ram into
a much bigger subject.
1212
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,810
Auschwitz is at the very
center of holocaust belief,
1213
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,360
so Auschwitz is at the very
center of holocaust denial.
1214
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:49,010
Think about it logically.
1215
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,290
It doesn't make any sense
at all what he says.
1216
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:52,690
"No holes, no holocaust."
1217
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:54,450
He seizes one tiny fact
1218
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,410
and because that can't be
physically proved, he says,
1219
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,290
"oh, well, then that throws
everything into doubt.
1220
01:04:58,320 --> 01:04:59,490
"The Nazis didn't
do any murdering.
1221
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:00,610
"They didn't do
any murdering at all."
1222
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:02,810
I know that. I wrote
a whole book about it.
1223
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:03,970
Anthony: For god's sake...
Deborah: I know that.
1224
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:05,490
Anthony: It's the same
thing as the Hitler trick.
1225
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:06,930
It's exactly the same thing.
Exactly the same thing!
1226
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:08,130
"Give them $1,000."
1227
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,170
Deborah: Tell me about it.
I'm the one that he did it to.
1228
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:11,570
You know, if you can't
find a piece of paper
1229
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,130
where it says, you know,
1230
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:14,570
"please murder the Jews,"
1231
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,890
it means Hitler never wanted
them to die in the first place.
1232
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:18,610
"Hitler was
the Jews' best friend."
1233
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,890
Irving said that!
He actually said that!
1234
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:21,970
I have to go.
1235
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:23,330
Wait a minute! I
wanna say something.
1236
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:24,970
And for once I want you
all to listen to me.
1237
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,050
I'm the defendant
1238
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,130
and I know the rule.
1239
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:28,810
The rule is
the client instructs.
1240
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,560
Well, the client's instructing.
1241
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,360
The survivors go on the stand.
And I go on the stand, too.
1242
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:36,360
Gentlemen.
1243
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:40,450
Richard? Where's he going?
Richard?
1244
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,050
Did you hear what I just said?
Deborah!
1245
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,530
Richard. Richard.
1246
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,490
Why is he leaving?
Because he has to prepare.
1247
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:49,570
That's why he's leaving.
1248
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:51,010
He doesn't just
turn up in court.
1249
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,170
He devotes his entire day,
every minute of his day,
1250
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,730
rigorously, to this case and nothing but.
And that's the point!
1251
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,090
No, what you're not getting,
what you're ignoring,
1252
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:00,970
is that we know what
happened at Auschwitz
1253
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,970
because there were people
there who actually saw it.
1254
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,610
Oh, Deborah, Deborah.
Yes, yes!
1255
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,530
With their own eyes.
1256
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:08,810
They're called survivors.
1257
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:10,530
Yes. And put
survivors on the stand
1258
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,400
and Irving will humiliate them.
1259
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,970
Remember the zundel trial.
Remember the exodus trial.
1260
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,440
They were torn apart.
1261
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,570
Because survivors
don't remember.
1262
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,250
Not every detail.
They forget something.
1263
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,410
They say a door was on the left,
when actually it was on the right,
1264
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:24,730
and then, wham! Irving's in.
1265
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,810
You see? "They're liars, you
can't trust anything they say."
1266
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:28,120
That's it, that's the technique.
1267
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,530
Will roll up her sleeve
and show you the tattoo
1268
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:32,370
to prove that, yes,
she was in Auschwitz.
1269
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:34,090
Anthony: Do you think
Irving's gonna respect them?
1270
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,370
You want that? Holocaust
survivors mocked and humiliated?
1271
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,210
You've got to get tasteless.
1272
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:39,330
I shall say,
1273
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,440
"Mrs. Altman, how much money
1274
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,480
"have you made out of
that tattoo since 1945?"
1275
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:52,400
You want more of that, do you?
1276
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:55,320
You think that's helpful?
1277
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:26,840
So, now, Mr. Irving,
1278
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,600
I will ask you to explain why,
1279
01:08:31,440 --> 01:08:34,880
if, as you claim, there were
no gas chambers in Auschwitz,
1280
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:40,850
the gratings taken in 1945
by the Polish authorities
1281
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,880
from morgue 1 in crematorium
ll were covered in cyanide,
1282
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:48,690
and why the camp's chief
architect, Karl bischoff,
1283
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,570
specifically refers to morgue 1
1284
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:53,480
as a vergasungskeller,
1285
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:55,610
a "gassing cellar."
1286
01:08:57,400 --> 01:08:58,560
Well?
1287
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,770
I am willing to concede
that they did indeed find
1288
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,250
in the ventilator gratings
traces of cyanide.
1289
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:07,930
Richard: They did?
Yes.
1290
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:10,810
I will also concede
that it was indeed
1291
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:12,410
used as a gassing cellar.
1292
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,370
It was?
Yes.
1293
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:15,560
Good. So...
1294
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:18,280
Gassing what?
1295
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:20,520
Irving: Well, I think
the evidence is clear
1296
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,250
that the room was used
as a gassing cellar
1297
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:26,280
for fumigating cadavers.
1298
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:30,690
Richard: Fumigating cadavers?
Yes.
1299
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:32,760
Richard: Why exactly
do you say that?
1300
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:35,850
That is what mortuaries are for.
1301
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,160
In mortuaries you put cadavers.
1302
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,450
What is the evidence
that that room
1303
01:09:40,480 --> 01:09:42,560
was used for gassing corpses?
1304
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:44,570
That is what it was built for.
1305
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,520
Gray:
I'm sorry, this, uh,
1306
01:09:47,480 --> 01:09:48,970
seems a crude question,
1307
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,520
but what is the point
of gassing a corpse?
1308
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:53,770
Because, my lord,
1309
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:55,840
they came in heavily infested
1310
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,730
with the typhus-bearing
lice which had killed them.
1311
01:09:58,760 --> 01:09:59,960
Richard: Did they?
1312
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,370
Did they, Mr. Irving?
Did they indeed?
1313
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,170
Then please explain to me
1314
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:07,530
why they needed
a gas-proof door
1315
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,050
with a peep hole
with double 8mm glass
1316
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:12,810
and a metal grill on the inside?
1317
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:25,570
You will remember at this time
1318
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:27,330
most of Germany
was under the weight
1319
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:28,720
of royal air force
bomber command.
1320
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:32,130
There was a concern
about the need
1321
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:33,530
to build
bomb-tight shelters.
1322
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,720
So now it's an air-raid
shelter, is it?
1323
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:37,090
I beg your pardon?
1324
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,840
It is either a room for
gassing already dead corpses,
1325
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:42,690
or it's an
air-raid shelter?
1326
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,640
Irving: Did I say either/or?
1327
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:47,480
In early 1943?
1328
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:49,680
An air-raid shelter?
1329
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,450
When you know
perfectly well that
1330
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:53,290
the first bombing
raid near Auschwitz
1331
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:55,840
wasn't until late 1944.
1332
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:58,040
And the placing
1333
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,850
of this so-called
"air-raid shelter,"
1334
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:02,930
if it was for the ss,
1335
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,850
it was a terribly long way from
the ss barracks, wasn't it?
1336
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:07,810
Have you thought of that?
1337
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,200
It's two and a half
miles, isn't it?
1338
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:13,290
If there was a bombing raid,
1339
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:15,240
they'd all be dead
before they got there.
1340
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:20,130
But can you really see lots
of very heavily armed men
1341
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,610
running the two and a
half to three miles
1342
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:24,960
from the ss barracks to a cellar
1343
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:27,160
at the far end of birkenau?
1344
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:29,250
You see...
1345
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,720
I'm trying to understand
1346
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,770
if there was this,
this dual function,
1347
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:38,690
so see if you can help me.
1348
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:40,250
Now, if the corpses
1349
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,850
were also gassed there,
1350
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:44,490
then, as I understand it,
1351
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,530
they were then
sent to be incinerated?
1352
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:48,640
Yes.
1353
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:52,450
What is the point
in gassing a corpse
1354
01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:54,400
that is about to be burnt?
1355
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:59,770
I'm not sure, saying this
1356
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:01,720
off the top of my head, Mr.
Rampton.
1357
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:04,330
I'm not a holocaust historian,
1358
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:06,850
I'm a Hitler historian.
1359
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:10,080
Then why don't you keep your
mouth shut about the holocaust?
1360
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,530
The truth is, as usual,
Mr. Irving,
1361
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:14,770
you jump in off the board
1362
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:16,730
spouting whatever rubbish
comes into your head
1363
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,410
in order to avoid
the obvious conclusion.
1364
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,170
This is not because
you're a rotten historian.
1365
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,760
It's because you're
a bent one, as well.
1366
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:11,920
Come in!
1367
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:24,170
Richard: Um, forgive me.
I should have rung,
1368
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:25,770
but I thought
it would be interesting
1369
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:27,400
to see where you lived.
1370
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,360
Is that all right?
Yes, of course.
1371
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:33,250
Come in, please.
Thank you. Thank you.
1372
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:35,770
It's, uh, very messy.
1373
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,840
Well, that's not
going to bother me.
1374
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:42,400
Let's see, the, um, 1995
pommard les epenots.
1375
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:44,970
Uh, it's rather special,
I think.
1376
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,450
You've had it before, remember?
1377
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:48,050
Oh, uh, yes.
1378
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:51,840
Well, there are glasses here.
1379
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,080
Ah, shame.
I rather like plastic.
1380
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:56,440
Still, you can't
have everything.
1381
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:02,400
I like to treat
myself, don't you?
1382
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:04,370
Why should all the bad people
1383
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:06,360
have all the good
things in life?
1384
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:07,600
Like this?
1385
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,970
You had a good morning. Yes, I did.
I did, didn't I?
1386
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,010
I rather think it went my way.
1387
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:15,530
Cheers.
Cheers.
1388
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:16,800
Mmm.
1389
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:19,840
It's paying off.
What is?
1390
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,330
Your technique.
That thing you do.
1391
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:23,770
You never catch his eye.
1392
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:25,530
Ah! You've noticed, have you?
1393
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:27,370
Well, what do you think
I've been doing these...
1394
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:29,010
These past weeks?
1395
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:30,040
Please, uh...
1396
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:32,400
Sit.
Oh, thank you.
1397
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:34,880
Yes, well, it's my way of
1398
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:36,530
telling him what I think of him.
1399
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:38,920
I don't look at him. It's
getting under his skin.
1400
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,200
I owe you an apology.
1401
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:50,730
I can't think why.
1402
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,080
For Auschwitz.
Oh.
1403
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:56,410
I thought you were rude.
1404
01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:58,720
I thought you were late.
1405
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:00,650
But now I understand.
1406
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:02,370
You were just... you were
pacing out the distance.
1407
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:03,730
Yes.
Yes, I had to.
1408
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:06,050
Well, I understand
that from today.
1409
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:10,210
Yes, it's a scene of a crime.
I have to go to the site.
1410
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:13,010
You were preparing a case.
You had to be sure.
1411
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:15,410
However disrespectful
you seemed.
1412
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:17,680
However heartless.
1413
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:22,120
That's what I do.
1414
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:27,320
I didn't know what to expect.
1415
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,010
It was...
It was a brief.
1416
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:33,450
I mean, my previous
brief, believe it or not,
1417
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:34,920
was from McDonald's.
1418
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:41,760
How could Auschwitz be
just another brief?
1419
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:44,080
I am sorry that
1420
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,320
perhaps you felt that
that's what it was to me.
1421
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:54,680
Very upsetting to see a
client in such distress.
1422
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:57,120
We didn't mean to
make you unhappy.
1423
01:15:57,240 --> 01:15:58,570
I know that.
1424
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,290
But I have never trusted anyone
1425
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:03,610
to do anything on my behalf
1426
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:05,400
since I was a child.
1427
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,290
And all I have is my
voice and my conscience
1428
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:13,290
and I have to listen to it.
1429
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:14,530
Your conscience?
Yes!
1430
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:15,680
Yes.
1431
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:19,290
They're strange
things, consciences.
1432
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:21,760
Trouble is, what feels best
1433
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,640
isn't necessarily
what works best.
1434
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:28,570
I mean, by all means,
1435
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:30,170
stand up, look the
devil in the eye,
1436
01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:32,960
tell him what you feel.
1437
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:36,250
Why not? It's very satisfying.
See what happens.
1438
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:39,560
And risk losing.
1439
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:42,840
Not just for yourself.
1440
01:16:43,480 --> 01:16:44,490
For the others.
1441
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:47,440
For everyone.
Forever.
1442
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:49,810
Or?
1443
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:53,080
Or...
You know "or."
1444
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:55,680
Stay seated.
1445
01:16:57,480 --> 01:16:58,600
Button your lip.
1446
01:17:00,480 --> 01:17:01,840
Win.
1447
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:06,640
An act of self-denial.
1448
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,450
Do you have any
idea how hard it is
1449
01:17:18,480 --> 01:17:21,400
to hand over your conscience
to somebody else?
1450
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,560
This is everything I
thought I would never do.
1451
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:34,650
All right.
1452
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:41,240
I'm gonna hand mine over
to this, uh, fly-fishing,
1453
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,490
wine-drinking
1454
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:45,520
scotsman.
1455
01:18:01,440 --> 01:18:03,680
There you are.
Hello.
1456
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,410
Deborah: Morning. Here,
let me move this.
1457
01:18:06,440 --> 01:18:07,600
Sit down.
1458
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:10,120
What is that?
1459
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:12,730
Richard: Ah.
It's black pudding.
1460
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:13,760
It's traditional.
1461
01:18:14,440 --> 01:18:15,490
It's made of blood.
1462
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:17,370
And you wanna live until
the end of the trial?
1463
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,640
Well, you've cheered
up since last night.
1464
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:21,800
I've cheered up
because of last night.
1465
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:23,490
Shutting up's not
gonna be easy but...
1466
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:24,930
Oh, could I have a black pudding
1467
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:25,970
for my friend, please?
1468
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:28,410
Ignore him. I
want a bagel, please.
1469
01:18:28,440 --> 01:18:31,120
Oh, and not toasted.
Thanks.
1470
01:18:31,440 --> 01:18:33,650
Oh, I need this. It's
gonna be a tough day.
1471
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:34,840
Proving intention.
1472
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:38,090
Richard Evans
gave us plenty of places
1473
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:39,730
where Irving got
his facts wrong.
1474
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:42,440
But we have to prove he got
'em wrong intentionally.
1475
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:44,890
He's fighting for his life.
1476
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:46,360
And remember,
1477
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:48,370
he knows the law
as well as we do.
1478
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:51,690
Unless we prove that Irving's
mistakes are deliberate,
1479
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:52,920
we lose.
1480
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:54,680
We lose.
1481
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:57,280
Gray: Mr. Irving,
1482
01:18:58,520 --> 01:18:59,770
the defense are claiming that
1483
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:01,760
you deliberately
falsified evidence
1484
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:03,930
to suit your own
political purposes.
1485
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,160
You must address that charge.
1486
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:11,320
We must deal with what we
call "keine liquidierung-"
1487
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:15,410
very well. We're looking first
at the November 30th entry.
1488
01:19:15,440 --> 01:19:16,730
Am I right?
1489
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:17,930
Evans: My lord,
1490
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:19,730
if I may explain the context?
1491
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:21,000
Gray: Please.
1492
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:24,370
Heinrich himmler, the head
of the ss, kept a log
1493
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:26,610
in which he made a record
of every telephone call
1494
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:28,610
he gave and received.
1495
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,210
In 1941,
1496
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:32,930
he called heydrich
from Hitler's bunker
1497
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:34,770
to give him instructions.
1498
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:37,650
After the call,
he wrote some words.
1499
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:41,370
"Jodentransport aus Berlin.
1500
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,130
"Keine liquidierung.
1501
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:45,490
"Jodentransport aus Berlin.
Keine liquidierung."
1502
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:46,890
Which clearly means,
1503
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,200
"the Jew transport from Berlin.
1504
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:52,210
"No liquidation."
1505
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:55,600
"The Jew transport," singular,
1506
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:57,360
"from Berlin."
1507
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:00,170
In Hitler's war,
1508
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:02,640
you write something
completely different.
1509
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,000
"At 01:30,
himmler was obliged
1510
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:09,690
"to telephone from Hitler's
bunker to heydrich
1511
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:14,210
"the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated."
1512
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,440
In other words, you
mistranslate the log
1513
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:20,050
so as to pretend that
this order came directly
1514
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:21,370
from Hitler, which it didn't,
1515
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:22,970
they hadn't even met that day,
1516
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:24,970
and that it applied
1517
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:28,450
not to just one particular
trainload of Jews,
1518
01:20:28,480 --> 01:20:31,370
but to all Jews
throughout Germany.
1519
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:34,400
And in order to bolster
1520
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:36,810
this false impression,
1521
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:39,810
you omit the word
"Berlin" altogether.
1522
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:42,090
So your claim to have
1523
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:46,720
incontrovertible proof that Hitler tried
to stop the liquidation of the Jews,
1524
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:51,130
as opposed to one particular
trainload of Jews, is false.
1525
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:54,570
You knew that then. You know it now.
It's wrong.
1526
01:20:57,200 --> 01:20:59,090
Of course,
if you privately decided
1527
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:01,080
it was a...
1528
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:04,010
A reasonable kind
of mistake to make
1529
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,570
when one is reading a new
document for the first time,
1530
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:11,210
you would, uh, you would immediately
tell the court, would you not?
1531
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:12,480
Evans: Of course, I would.
1532
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:17,600
I do not feel this is a
reasonable mistake to make.
1533
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:19,890
I believe it's deliberate.
1534
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:21,080
Ha!
1535
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:28,450
Evans:
In Hitler's war,
1536
01:21:28,480 --> 01:21:30,680
you write something
completely different.
1537
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:34,410
"At 01:30, himmler was obliged
1538
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:38,000
"to telephone from Hitler's
bunker to heydrich
1539
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:42,850
"the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated."
1540
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:46,200
What? Because I'm tired of it.
1541
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:49,320
You didn't even
want to be a lawyer.
1542
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:54,410
The holocaust, the holocaust.
1543
01:21:56,480 --> 01:21:58,440
There are other things.
1544
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:02,250
At some point isn't everyone
gonna have to let go?
1545
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:05,680
It... it's an obsession.
1546
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:07,850
How many years?
1547
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:11,450
Are they ever gonna
let go of this grievance?
1548
01:22:11,480 --> 01:22:14,160
I think it's rather
more than a grievance.
1549
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:16,370
Irving: I find the whole
1550
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:18,440
holocaust story utterly boring.
1551
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:22,130
The Jews keep going on
about the holocaust
1552
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:23,880
because it's the only
interesting thing
1553
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:26,410
which has happened to them
in 3,000 years.
1554
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:29,210
I'm not
interested in the holocaust,
1555
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,280
I don't know anyone who is.
1556
01:22:32,480 --> 01:22:33,650
Richard: And that's an excerpt
1557
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:35,450
from a speech you made
1558
01:22:35,480 --> 01:22:38,490
at the best western hotel
in tampa
1559
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:42,040
on July the 25th, 1998.
1560
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:43,370
I remember speaking,
1561
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:45,240
um, I do not know
what the date was.
1562
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,880
You said, "I think 95%
of the thinking public
1563
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:52,370
"find the holocaust
endlessly boring,
1564
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:54,130
"but they dare not say it
1565
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:57,280
"because it is
politically incorrect."
1566
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:00,530
Uh, Mr. Irving,
next I want to refer you
1567
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,770
to a talk you gave
to the clarendon club,
1568
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:05,450
whatever that may be,
1569
01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:08,800
on the 19th of September, 1992.
1570
01:23:09,240 --> 01:23:14,170
Uh, the transcripts. Tab
five, my lord, page 35.
1571
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:15,240
Gray: Thank you.
1572
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:17,970
Irving: But if there is
one thing that gets up my nose,
1573
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:20,080
I must admit it's this.
1574
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:22,330
When I switch on
my television set
1575
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:24,600
and I see one of them
reading our news to us.
1576
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:31,000
Richard: Mr. Irving, who is the
"them" and who is the "us"?
1577
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:33,000
Trevor McDonald.
1578
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:34,570
McDonald?
1579
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:36,360
A newsreader, my lord.
1580
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,450
A black newsreader.
1581
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:42,000
Well, in fact, this is
a stock speech I used to make.
1582
01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:43,730
I used to say,
1583
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:44,890
"in the good old days,
1584
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:46,920
"the announcer would
wear a dinner jacket.
1585
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:48,610
"Now they've got
women reading the news,
1586
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:49,690
"and they have..."
1587
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:51,440
It's just part of
a general speech.
1588
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:55,400
Yes. "It is our news and
they're reading it to me."
1589
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:58,410
If they could have their own news,
which they were reading to us,
1590
01:23:58,440 --> 01:23:59,960
I suppose it would be
very interesting.
1591
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:02,250
But for the time being,
1592
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,480
I'd be prepared
to accept that the BBC
1593
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:07,010
should have a
dinner-jacketed gentleman
1594
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:08,530
reading the important news...
1595
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:11,690
Followed by a lady reading
the less important news...
1596
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,050
Followed by Trevor McDonald
giving us all the latest news
1597
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:15,570
on muggings and drug busts.
1598
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:19,850
Richard: "Rest lost in
loud laughter and applause."
1599
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:22,960
Are you not appalled by that?
1600
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:24,800
Not in the least.
1601
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:26,330
This was a witty speech
1602
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:28,770
delivered after dinner to an
audience at a private club.
1603
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:30,570
You were talking to
a bunch of racists.
1604
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,010
No, they were not. They were
perfectly ordinary guests...
1605
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,290
Ordinary people? Then
why were there cheers?
1606
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:37,360
Well, obviously
they liked the jokes.
1607
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:43,890
Mr. Irving, I think
you might be advised
1608
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:45,880
to have a look
at your own diary,
1609
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:47,920
if you wouldn't mind.
1610
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:50,650
Thirty-eight, please,
Mr. Irving, 38.
1611
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:52,120
Tab 10
1612
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:55,080
of the bundle k4.
1613
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:01,970
"A quiet evening at home.
Jessica..."
1614
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:03,000
Who is Jessica?
1615
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:06,410
Irving:
My little infant child.
1616
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:07,570
Richard: Yes.
1617
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,360
She was nine months
old at the time.
1618
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:13,800
Nine months old
in September 1994.
1619
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:19,080
"Jessica is turning into
a fine little lady.
1620
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:23,170
"She sits very upright
on an ordinary chair,
1621
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:26,520
"a product of our regular
walks to the bank, lam sure.
1622
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:31,160
"On those walks, we sing the
'binkety-bankety-bong' song.
1623
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:34,010
"She stars in a poem
1624
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:37,040
"when half-breed children
are wheeled past."
1625
01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:42,040
And then you go into italics.
1626
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:45,720
"I am a baby Aryan
1627
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:48,560
"not Jewish or sectarian
1628
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:51,770
"I have no plans to marry
1629
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:54,320
"an ape or rastafarian."
1630
01:25:56,480 --> 01:25:58,320
Racist, Mr. Irving?
1631
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:00,520
Anti-semitic, Mr. Irving?
1632
01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:02,170
I do not think so.
1633
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:05,800
Richard: Teaching your little
child this kind of poison?
1634
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:08,810
Do you think a nine-month-old
can understand words
1635
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:10,770
spoken in English
or any other language?
1636
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:12,770
This poor little child
1637
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:15,240
has been taught a racist ditty
1638
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,880
by her racist
and perverted father.
1639
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:20,240
Have you ever read Edward lear?
1640
01:26:20,360 --> 01:26:21,930
Hilaire belloc?
1641
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:25,240
They haven't brought a libel action, Mr.
Irving. You have.
1642
01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:28,530
You sued because you said that
1643
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,720
we had called you a racist
and an extremist.
1644
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:34,090
Yes,
1645
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:37,400
but I'm not a racist.
1646
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:41,840
Richard: Mr. Irving,
1647
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:46,160
look at the words on the page.
1648
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:53,290
Well done, Richard.
1649
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:55,610
That's it.
Racism, anti-semitism
1650
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:57,090
and the guy's
a holocaust denier.
1651
01:26:57,120 --> 01:26:59,290
I mean, we always said
it was a package deal.
1652
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:02,240
We've got symptoms,
purpose, motive.
1653
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:04,930
I really don't see
what else they'd want.
1654
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:06,450
What did you think, Anthony?
1655
01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:07,490
What did I think?
1656
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:09,450
I thought it was
the most boring morning
1657
01:27:09,480 --> 01:27:10,610
we've had in court so far.
1658
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:12,650
My god, you love to be contrary.
1659
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:14,880
Well, the man's an
anti-semite and a racist.
1660
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:16,370
It's like having
shit on your shoe.
1661
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:18,250
You wipe it off.
You don't study it.
1662
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:19,290
Thanks a lot.
1663
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,000
You know, my whole
life's been studying it.
1664
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:24,010
You could hardly accuse
me of being racist.
1665
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:25,210
Among my domestic staff
1666
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:27,290
I've had a Barbadian, a punjabi,
1667
01:27:27,320 --> 01:27:29,130
Sri lankan, a Pakistani.
1668
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:31,290
And I can tell you, though, they
were all very attractive girls
1669
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:32,480
with very nice breasts.
1670
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:34,490
I'm sorry?
Can you say that again?
1671
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:37,890
Richard:
You know what I'm gonna miss?
1672
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:39,850
I'm gonna miss these lunches.
Laura: Ah.
1673
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:41,450
Me, too, Richard.
Me, too.
1674
01:27:41,480 --> 01:27:42,490
Me, too.
1675
01:27:42,520 --> 01:27:43,890
The excellent chutney.
1676
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:46,410
Laura: It's something
I never expected.
1677
01:27:46,440 --> 01:27:47,890
My parents made me take up law
1678
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:49,730
and the first case I get,
1679
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:51,250
I feel I'm making a difference.
1680
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:53,320
It's a wonderful feeling.
1681
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,080
I never, ever expected that.
1682
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:58,850
I feel exactly
the same... still.
1683
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:01,800
Cheers.
All: Cheers.
1684
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:06,210
All right, who wants any more
of this excellent vintage?
1685
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:07,840
Yes, please.
Heather: Oh, no, not for me.
1686
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:11,930
This trial has been both
long and hugely expensive,
1687
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,930
costing an estimated three
million pounds or more
1688
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:17,050
and running for
almost eight weeks.
1689
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:18,530
As the trial enters
its eighth week,
1690
01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:20,810
some are saying it raises
freedom-of-speech issues.
1691
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:22,250
Only the two opposing
speeches remain
1692
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:24,170
before the judge,
Mr. justice gray,
1693
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,850
retires for what we are told
will be at least four weeks
1694
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:28,400
to consider his judgment.
1695
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:32,010
Richard:
My lord, during this trial
1696
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:34,210
we have heard from
professor Evans and others
1697
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:35,810
of at least 25
1698
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:38,080
major falsifications of history.
1699
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:40,770
"Well," says Mr. Irving,
1700
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,640
"all historians
make mistakes."
1701
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:45,530
But there is a difference
1702
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:47,410
between negligence,
1703
01:28:47,440 --> 01:28:49,240
which is random in its effect,
1704
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:53,520
and a deliberateness
which is far more one-sided.
1705
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:56,480
All Mr. Irving's
little fictions,
1706
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:59,130
all his tweaks of the evidence,
1707
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:00,890
all tend in the same direction,
1708
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:04,760
the exculpation of Adolf Hitler.
1709
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:07,090
He is, to use an
analogy, like the waiter
1710
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:09,320
who always gives
the wrong change.
1711
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:11,090
If he is honest,
1712
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:12,730
we may expect sometimes
1713
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:14,770
his mistakes to
favor the customers,
1714
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:16,480
sometimes himself.
1715
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:20,920
But Mr. Irving is
the dishonest waiter.
1716
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:24,280
All his mistakes
work in his favor.
1717
01:29:25,480 --> 01:29:28,490
How far, if at all,
Mr. Irving's anti-semitism
1718
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,410
is the cause
of his Hitler apology,
1719
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:34,720
or vice versa, is unimportant.
1720
01:29:35,440 --> 01:29:38,770
Whether they are taken
together or individually
1721
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:40,610
it is clear that
they have led him
1722
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:41,930
to prostitute his reputation
1723
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:44,280
as a serious historian
1724
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:48,240
in favor of a bogus
rehabilitation of Adolf Hitler
1725
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:49,930
and the dissemination
1726
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:54,010
of virulent anti-semitic
propaganda.
1727
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:57,450
Gray: Yes, this is a question
1728
01:29:57,480 --> 01:30:00,130
I have to ask you,
Mr. rampton.
1729
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:01,440
Yes, by all means, my lord.
1730
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:03,760
My question is this,
1731
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:07,050
if somebody
is anti-semitic,
1732
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,560
anti-semitic
and extremist,
1733
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:11,250
he is perfectly capable
1734
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:15,440
of being honestly
anti-semitic, yes?
1735
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,450
He's holding those views
and expressing those views
1736
01:30:19,480 --> 01:30:21,720
because they are
indeed his views?
1737
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:24,560
Well, yes.
1738
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:28,600
And so it seems to me,
if it comes down to it,
1739
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:31,810
that the anti-semitism
1740
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:33,920
is a completely
separate allegation
1741
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:36,810
and has precious little bearing
on your broader charge
1742
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:38,880
that he has
manipulated the data?
1743
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:41,290
No, no, my lord. No.
1744
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:43,290
The whole endeavor
of the defense
1745
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:45,240
has been to prove
that the two are connected.
1746
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:48,080
But he might believe
what he is saying.
1747
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:50,050
That is the point.
1748
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:51,880
That is why it is so important.
1749
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:56,850
My lord, if we know that
Mr. Irving is an anti-semite,
1750
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:59,410
and if we know there is
no historical justification
1751
01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:00,810
for holocaust denial,
1752
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,330
then surely
it is no great stretch
1753
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,200
to see that
the two are connected.
1754
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:17,200
Yes. Thank you.
1755
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:19,570
Carry on.
1756
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:25,240
What the fuck just happened?
1757
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:31,210
Anthony, what just happened?
1758
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:00,760
Libby: Well? How was it?
1759
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:05,760
Deborah: I'll tell you
what happened at the end.
1760
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:10,250
We summed up.
Irving summed up.
1761
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:15,170
And?
1762
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:16,530
And everyone kept saying,
this is all great,
1763
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:19,970
everything's gonna be fine.
And then suddenly this judge,
1764
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,090
this unbelievable character
from masterpiece theatre...
1765
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:25,210
Oh, I like masterpiece
theatre- I know.
1766
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:27,410
Anyway, at the last minute,
he looked up and he said,
1767
01:32:27,440 --> 01:32:30,930
"well, you know, maybe
Irving actually believes it.
1768
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:33,610
"He's an anti-semite
and he believes it.
1769
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:35,090
"You can't accuse
someone of lying
1770
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:37,560
"if they genuinely believe
what they're saying."
1771
01:32:38,480 --> 01:32:39,890
That's crazy.
That's insane.
1772
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:41,960
And that's when I thought,
"I've been suckered."
1773
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:44,000
I stared at this judge
for eight weeks
1774
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:45,450
and I thought
I was looking at wisdom,
1775
01:32:45,480 --> 01:32:48,160
but maybe I was just
looking at prejudice.
1776
01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:54,000
Well, what can you do?
1777
01:32:54,480 --> 01:32:57,160
I just wait.
Just wait.
1778
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:09,050
Libby: And do they tell you
the result in advance?
1779
01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:11,120
Deborah:
No. But my lawyers get told.
1780
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:14,250
What, they get told and they
can't tell you? You're kidding?
1781
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:16,970
Yeah. They get the verdict
24 hours in advance.
1782
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,170
To the minute. 09:00 A.M.
the day before,
1783
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:21,330
to give 'em time
to prepare a response.
1784
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:22,490
And what's worse,
1785
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:24,680
yeah, Irving gets it, too.
1786
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:26,770
Libby: Why? Because
he's his own lawyer.
1787
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:28,560
So he's allowed it and I'm not.
1788
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:33,250
Male historian: I think
this trial is sending a chill
1789
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:35,680
through the community
of 20th century historians.
1790
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:37,530
Which historian isn't thinking,
1791
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:39,970
"would my work survive
this kind of scrutiny?"
1792
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:42,970
Show me one historian who has
not broken into a cold sweat
1793
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:45,120
at the thought of undergoing
similar treatment.
1794
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:53,530
Deborah:
When people glibly say,
1795
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:55,850
"oh, if I'd have
been in Germany,
1796
01:33:55,880 --> 01:33:57,690
"I would never
have collaborated,
1797
01:33:57,720 --> 01:33:58,880
"I'd have resisted,"
1798
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:01,880
I just wanna laugh.
1799
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:04,690
Do you have any idea
1800
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:07,690
how dangerous and
difficult it was?
1801
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:13,050
Standing up to the
enemy was arduous
1802
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:16,520
and uncertain and exhausting.
1803
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:20,880
But they had to do it.
1804
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:26,400
Only in hindsight that
things get called heroic.
1805
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:30,640
At the time you're just afraid.
1806
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,440
Afraid of how things
will turn out.
1807
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:46,400
Deborah lipstadt.
1808
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:48,320
Ah, good. There you are.
1809
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:49,730
Anthony.
1810
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:52,530
Yeah. Just to say we've been told
to expect the verdict on Tuesday.
1811
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:55,410
On Tuesday?
Are you sure?
1812
01:34:55,440 --> 01:34:58,010
You know, I don't think they'd
have said it unless it were true.
1813
01:34:58,040 --> 01:34:59,250
I've been wondering if we could
1814
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:01,090
work out some kind of code.
1815
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:03,530
Like I call and say, "how's the
weather?" And you say, "good."
1816
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:05,130
Meaning...
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
1817
01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:08,010
Or you say the weather's bad
and that would mean...
1818
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:09,810
Only, of course,
I'd be disbarred.
1819
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:11,960
I'd never be allowed to
practice law in england again.
1820
01:35:12,440 --> 01:35:15,330
Oh, well, there'd be an upside.
1821
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:16,880
Ah.
1822
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:53,120
Anthony: Yes?
1823
01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:56,210
That one.
1824
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:01,280
Deborah.
1825
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:04,680
Well?
1826
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:16,370
Anthony: Out of the way,
please. Out of the way.
1827
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:18,120
Guilty! Filthy Jew!
1828
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:20,160
Man: Jewish scum!
1829
01:36:34,480 --> 01:36:35,480
Shame on you!
1830
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:43,770
Woman: Shame on you, Nazi lover!
1831
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:50,800
David! David! David!
1832
01:37:05,440 --> 01:37:06,440
Oh.
1833
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:13,120
Clerk: My lord.
Gray: Hmm?
1834
01:37:25,440 --> 01:37:27,730
Janet: Thank you, Jay.
One per person. Thank you.
1835
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:28,970
Ladies first, I think.
1836
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:30,410
There you go. Thank you.
1837
01:37:30,440 --> 01:37:32,090
One per person.
Thank you. I'll do it.
1838
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:35,210
Male reporter: This massive
334-page document,
1839
01:37:35,240 --> 01:37:37,890
which does not yet disclose
the final verdict,
1840
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:39,920
is studiously
even-handed.
1841
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:42,210
It is difficult to
say on which side
1842
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:44,450
Mr. justice gray's
decision will land.
1843
01:37:44,480 --> 01:37:46,770
Male reporter 2: It praises Irving's
skill as a military historian,
1844
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:49,410
while at the same time
drawing attention to flaws
1845
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:51,240
in some of his reasoning.
1846
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:07,890
Janet: Court rise.
1847
01:38:22,240 --> 01:38:25,610
David Irving
v. Penguin books limited
1848
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:27,360
and Deborah lipstadt.
1849
01:38:29,480 --> 01:38:31,640
I shall read my judgment.
1850
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:45,250
Gray: It appears to me
that the correct
1851
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:47,890
and inevitable inference must be
1852
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:50,970
that the falsification of
the historical record
1853
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:55,730
was deliberate and that Irving was
motivated by a desire to present events
1854
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:59,330
in a manner consistent with
his own ideological beliefs,
1855
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:01,930
even if that involved distortion
1856
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:05,080
and manipulation
of historical evidence.
1857
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:08,050
In the result, therefore,
1858
01:39:08,080 --> 01:39:11,680
the defense of
justification, succeeds.
1859
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:15,320
The court finds
for the defendants.
1860
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:18,010
Janet: Court rise.
1861
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:29,320
I can't believe it!
James: It's true.
1862
01:39:29,440 --> 01:39:30,930
Well done. Well done.
1863
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:32,530
Well done.
1864
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:36,730
Mazel tov!
1865
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:38,090
You've been brilliant.
Mazel tov!
1866
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:39,530
You didn't let me say anything.
1867
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:40,760
I didn't say a thing.
1868
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:42,370
Well, nor did I.
Think how I feel.
1869
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:44,530
It's not true.
It's not true, Deborah.
1870
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:45,690
It was your book.
1871
01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:47,290
Your book held up
in every aspect.
1872
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:49,010
Every aspect. Every detail.
1873
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:50,930
We defended it.
But it was the book.
1874
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:52,920
It was the book. Thomas: I
know, I know, I know...
1875
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:56,530
Deborah: Thank you for all your hard work.
Thomas: You are so welcome.
1876
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:57,890
It was like a dream job.
1877
01:39:57,920 --> 01:40:00,840
Well done. Well done.
1878
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:04,610
Deborah: Laura. Genius!
1879
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:08,330
Reporter 1: This has been
called one of the most
1880
01:40:08,360 --> 01:40:10,250
crushing libel
judgments in history.
1881
01:40:10,280 --> 01:40:11,650
Reporter 2:
The judge called Mr. Irving
1882
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:13,450
an anti-semite, a racist,
1883
01:40:13,480 --> 01:40:15,400
and a distorter of history.
1884
01:40:15,880 --> 01:40:18,090
Can you tell us how you're
feeling at this time?
1885
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:20,080
Anthony: I feel terrific.
This is a wonderful day.
1886
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:21,490
A wonderful day for everyone.
1887
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,320
Male reporter: Deborah. Deborah, how
do you feel about today's verdict?
1888
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:27,610
Now you can speak.
1889
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:29,010
Great.
1890
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:30,640
Can you expand at all on that?
1891
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:34,680
Come on. Come on...
Come to the press conference!
1892
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:37,640
Forbes-Watson: We saw this
as a free-speech issue.
1893
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:39,210
Penguin defended
d.H. Lawrence.
1894
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:40,600
We defended salman rushdie.
1895
01:40:40,720 --> 01:40:41,850
It was inconceivable
1896
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:43,410
we wouldn't defend
Deborah lipstadt.
1897
01:40:43,440 --> 01:40:44,770
Man: She's here. She's here.
1898
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:52,570
Female journalist:
Miss lipstadt? Miss lipstadt?
1899
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:53,800
Deborah?
1900
01:40:56,120 --> 01:40:58,130
Can I ask, do you
have any regrets
1901
01:40:58,160 --> 01:40:59,610
about bringing the case?
1902
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:01,290
I don't know how to say
this often enough,
1903
01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:02,850
I didn't bring the case.
1904
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:04,610
Mr. Irving did.
1905
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:06,690
Although I'm not
sure he realized
1906
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:09,250
when he agreed to a trial
by a single judge,
1907
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:10,770
that it would mean
a written judgment.
1908
01:41:10,800 --> 01:41:14,080
This judgment is gonna
stand against him forever.
1909
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:16,850
Now, some people are saying
that the result of this trial
1910
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:18,850
will threaten free speech.
1911
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:20,410
I don't accept that.
1912
01:41:20,440 --> 01:41:22,490
I'm not attacking free speech.
1913
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:25,130
On the contrary,
I've been defending it
1914
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:27,080
against someone
who wanted to abuse it.
1915
01:41:27,480 --> 01:41:30,530
Freedom of speech means you
can say whatever you want.
1916
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:32,610
What you can't do is lie,
1917
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:35,450
and then expect not to be
held accountable for it.
1918
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:38,000
Not all opinions are equal
1919
01:41:38,680 --> 01:41:39,880
and some things happen,
1920
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:42,290
just like we say they do.
1921
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:43,770
Slavery happened.
1922
01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:45,680
The black death happened.
1923
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:47,410
The earth is round.
1924
01:41:47,440 --> 01:41:50,280
The ice caps are melting
and Elvis is not alive.
1925
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:52,960
Miss lipstadt?
1926
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:55,690
You've conducted
yourself with dignity
1927
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:56,760
throughout the trial.
1928
01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:59,410
Thank you. Uh, but I
know what that means.
1929
01:41:59,440 --> 01:42:02,050
That's code in england
for "I've shut up,"
1930
01:42:02,080 --> 01:42:04,730
and I don't promise to shut
up in the future.
1931
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,170
Female reporter: Miss lipstadt,
how convinced were you
1932
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:09,850
that this trial was going to
have a good outcome for you?
1933
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:14,570
Um, well, before
I came to London,
1934
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:17,690
I was definitely not convinced
that a court of law
1935
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:20,560
was a good place to
investigate historical truth.
1936
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:22,720
But...
1937
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:27,640
I underestimated
the value of a team.
1938
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:29,970
Of real teamwork.
1939
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:32,920
And it turns out
it's not a bad place.
1940
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:37,370
As long as you have great
lawyers with great passion.
1941
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:41,560
And, uh, my god, did I
have great lawyers.
1942
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:48,010
Male reporter: Miss
lipstadt, if you could say
1943
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:50,450
something now to David Irving,
1944
01:42:50,480 --> 01:42:51,480
what would you say?
1945
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:55,210
I wouldn't say anything
to David Irving.
1946
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:58,690
I would say something to the
survivors and to the murdered.
1947
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:00,370
And I would say...
1948
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:04,770
"You were remembered.
1949
01:43:05,440 --> 01:43:08,520
"The voice of
suffering was heard."
1950
01:43:18,920 --> 01:43:20,920
You really are
quite good at this.
1951
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:25,960
Thank you.
1952
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:33,250
Irving: I think if you
look at the judgment closely,
1953
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:36,120
you'll see there are all sorts
of things there in my favor.
1954
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:38,850
Jeremy: You're not
seriously suggesting
1955
01:43:38,880 --> 01:43:41,130
that this judgment supports you?
1956
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:44,170
Well, plainly I ran
rings round the defense.
1957
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:47,290
My only regret is I didn't use
a mallet of sufficient caliber
1958
01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:50,050
to ram my case into
the thick skull of the judge.
1959
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:52,970
Jeremy: Mr. Irving,
what people want to know
1960
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:55,920
is whether, on the basis
of this judgment,
1961
01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:59,440
you will now stop
denying the holocaust.
1962
01:44:02,440 --> 01:44:05,520
Me? Stop? Good lord, no.
1963
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:07,570
Jeremy: Despite the fact that
1964
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:09,730
the judge says,
"it appears to me..."
1965
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:11,800
Deborah: Hello?
Deborah?
1966
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:13,850
He seems to be saying he won.
1967
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:17,090
I know. He used
to be a holocaust denier,
1968
01:44:17,120 --> 01:44:18,250
and now he's a verdict denier.
1969
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:19,930
Irving: The fact that she
didn't even dare to appear
1970
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:21,970
tells you everything you need
to know about miss lipstadt.
1971
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:23,210
Let's just turn him off.
1972
01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:24,970
I don't think
her Brooklyn accent
1973
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:26,650
would have endeared
her to the court.
1974
01:44:26,920 --> 01:44:28,520
It's queens.