1 00:00:31,531 --> 00:00:33,265 (PIANO PLAYING FOLK TUNE) 2 00:00:39,639 --> 00:00:41,373 MICHAEL POLLEY: "When you're in the middle of a story, 3 00:00:42,375 --> 00:00:43,575 "it isn't a story at all, 4 00:00:45,211 --> 00:00:46,245 "but only a confusion, 5 00:00:47,247 --> 00:00:48,714 "a dark roaring, 6 00:00:50,116 --> 00:00:52,184 "a blindness, 7 00:00:52,186 --> 00:00:57,089 "a wreckage of shattered glass and splintered wood, 8 00:00:57,091 --> 00:01:00,592 "like a house in a whirlwind, or else a boat 9 00:01:00,594 --> 00:01:04,763 "crushed by the icebergs or swept over the rapids, 10 00:01:04,765 --> 00:01:09,568 "and all aboard are powerless to stop it. 11 00:01:09,570 --> 00:01:14,506 "It's only afterwards that it becomes anything like a story at all. 12 00:01:14,508 --> 00:01:19,344 "When you're telling it to yourself or to someone else." 13 00:01:28,354 --> 00:01:30,422 MICHAEL: How far am I gonna go up? 14 00:01:30,424 --> 00:01:33,392 SARAH POLLEY: Uh, three flights. MICHAEL: Just keep going. 15 00:01:33,394 --> 00:01:34,693 SARAH: Take a break when you need to. 16 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,201 MICHAEL: Jolly good. (DOOR BEEPS) 17 00:01:42,203 --> 00:01:44,336 (SIGHS) 18 00:01:44,338 --> 00:01:45,571 Here we are, then. Hi. 19 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,347 (DOOR BEEPS) 20 00:01:56,850 --> 00:01:57,850 Hey. 21 00:02:01,855 --> 00:02:03,889 All right, you two. 22 00:02:03,891 --> 00:02:05,524 So this is where you're sitting. 23 00:02:05,526 --> 00:02:07,192 Oh, right. It's here. 24 00:02:09,896 --> 00:02:11,263 MICHAEL: Right, then. SARAH: Okay. 25 00:02:11,265 --> 00:02:12,798 MICHAEL: Oh, let's have a look and see. 26 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:13,899 Oh, my God. 27 00:02:13,901 --> 00:02:16,735 So this is the first half. 28 00:02:16,737 --> 00:02:19,171 This is what, love? The first half of what we're recording. 29 00:02:21,608 --> 00:02:22,741 Are we gonna do the whole lot? 30 00:02:22,743 --> 00:02:24,476 Yeah, there's another... (CHUCKLES) 31 00:02:25,478 --> 00:02:27,713 All this? Yeah. 32 00:02:27,715 --> 00:02:29,748 It's the whole of the thing that I wrote, 33 00:02:29,750 --> 00:02:31,450 it's a severe punishment, that. 34 00:02:31,452 --> 00:02:32,751 (SARAH CHUCKLES) 35 00:02:38,625 --> 00:02:39,825 Whose tea is that? 36 00:02:41,528 --> 00:02:43,662 Okay, so, and oh... (CREW LAUGHING) 37 00:02:43,664 --> 00:02:46,798 I just think that I might be sweating through my shirt. 38 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,767 Yeah, I'm ready. Okay. 39 00:02:51,371 --> 00:02:52,871 I don't like this. 40 00:02:52,873 --> 00:02:54,339 SARAH: Are you nervous? A little. 41 00:02:54,341 --> 00:02:55,641 (BOTH CHUCKLE) 42 00:02:55,643 --> 00:02:57,176 SARAH: Yeah, it'll get worse. 43 00:02:57,178 --> 00:02:58,844 (FOLK SONG PLAYING) 44 00:03:07,887 --> 00:03:09,521 (INAUDIBLE OVER SONG) 45 00:03:20,500 --> 00:03:22,768 MICHAEL: I hope that you'll explain to me some time 46 00:03:22,770 --> 00:03:25,871 what all this is that you're trying to do. SARAH: Huh? 47 00:03:25,873 --> 00:03:29,741 The two cameras and me recording it visually and... 48 00:03:29,743 --> 00:03:32,744 I mean, it's not the normal way of doing it, is it? 49 00:03:32,746 --> 00:03:34,846 SARAH: I don't know. Hmm. 50 00:03:34,848 --> 00:03:36,782 SARAH: We've told you it's a documentary, 51 00:03:36,784 --> 00:03:38,917 but it's actually... It's an interrogation process. 52 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:41,253 What? 53 00:03:41,255 --> 00:03:41,820 (LOUDER) It's an interrogation process that we've set up. 54 00:03:43,223 --> 00:03:45,490 Okay. 55 00:03:45,492 --> 00:03:47,226 I honestly need pills. 56 00:03:47,228 --> 00:03:49,261 (LAUGHS) 57 00:03:49,263 --> 00:03:50,662 SARAH: Do you really? Are you really? I'm so nervous. 58 00:03:50,664 --> 00:03:52,464 Are my teeth okay? 59 00:03:52,466 --> 00:03:53,966 (CLEARS THROAT) 60 00:03:53,968 --> 00:03:55,767 I feel like I'm sweating. 61 00:03:55,769 --> 00:03:57,336 And how far down... What's my frame? 62 00:03:57,338 --> 00:03:58,437 Okay. 63 00:03:58,439 --> 00:03:59,571 How are my breasts? 64 00:04:00,573 --> 00:04:02,541 Okay, show time. 65 00:04:02,543 --> 00:04:05,477 (SONG CONTINUES) 66 00:04:26,866 --> 00:04:28,967 Me? Do you want me? Oh, I'm sorry. 67 00:04:39,545 --> 00:04:41,013 SARAH: Okay, Dad, so, um... 68 00:04:41,015 --> 00:04:43,615 We can start anytime. Are you rolling? Yeah. 69 00:04:43,617 --> 00:04:44,783 Okay. 70 00:04:45,985 --> 00:04:47,853 We're off. 71 00:04:47,855 --> 00:04:50,022 "In the beginning... The end. 72 00:04:50,024 --> 00:04:52,591 "I am unique. 73 00:04:52,593 --> 00:04:54,760 "From that precise moment when I was dragged 74 00:04:54,762 --> 00:04:56,928 "out of my mother's womb into this cold world, 75 00:04:58,331 --> 00:05:00,365 "I was complete. 76 00:05:00,367 --> 00:05:04,636 "An amalgam of the DNA passed on to me by my mother and father. 77 00:05:04,638 --> 00:05:07,673 "And they, too, had been born finished products 78 00:05:07,675 --> 00:05:10,876 "with their DNA handed down by their respective parents 79 00:05:10,878 --> 00:05:13,578 "and so back ad infinitum. 80 00:05:13,580 --> 00:05:16,415 "It is clear to me that I was always there, 81 00:05:16,417 --> 00:05:20,652 "somewhere in my ancestor's DNA, just waiting to just be born. 82 00:05:20,654 --> 00:05:23,588 "So this unique I has always existed, 83 00:05:23,590 --> 00:05:25,457 "even in the mystery of nothingness. 84 00:05:26,659 --> 00:05:28,894 "So where to start?" 85 00:05:28,896 --> 00:05:32,397 SARAH: So, Dad, can you tell the whole story? 86 00:05:32,399 --> 00:05:35,434 The marriage to Mum and everything that happened since. (CHUCKLES) 87 00:05:38,938 --> 00:05:40,472 Good God. 88 00:05:40,474 --> 00:05:41,940 Yup. 89 00:05:41,942 --> 00:05:44,009 The entire story? 90 00:05:44,011 --> 00:05:47,879 SARAH: I'm gonna ask you now to tell the whole story 91 00:05:47,881 --> 00:05:49,681 as though I don't know the story 92 00:05:49,683 --> 00:05:50,982 from the very beginning to the very end. 93 00:05:52,385 --> 00:05:54,953 Shit. Um... 94 00:05:54,955 --> 00:05:58,090 from beginning to end in your own words, 95 00:05:58,092 --> 00:05:59,591 like, as though you're telling a story to someone? 96 00:05:59,593 --> 00:06:00,926 Like a medley. 97 00:06:00,928 --> 00:06:02,461 SARAH: A medley. Yeah, okay. 98 00:06:02,463 --> 00:06:03,662 (SARAH LAUGHS) 99 00:06:03,664 --> 00:06:05,931 SARAH: Can you describe the whole story 100 00:06:05,933 --> 00:06:09,701 from the beginning until now in your own words? 101 00:06:09,703 --> 00:06:11,136 What? (BOTH LAUGHING) 102 00:06:15,641 --> 00:06:17,008 Wow. 103 00:06:17,010 --> 00:06:18,810 I guess I better pee first. 104 00:06:18,812 --> 00:06:20,979 (SARAH LAUGHING) 105 00:06:20,981 --> 00:06:24,383 Wow. Yeah, give me a moment. SARAH: Yeah, go pee now. 106 00:06:24,385 --> 00:06:26,151 SARAH: What do you think of this documentary being made? 107 00:06:27,553 --> 00:06:29,688 Um... (SIGHS) 108 00:06:29,690 --> 00:06:31,923 SARAH: You can be totally candid. Can I? (LAUGHING) 109 00:06:31,925 --> 00:06:34,593 A lot of you have been, so... 110 00:06:34,595 --> 00:06:37,796 You know, I guess I have this sort of instinctive reaction of, 111 00:06:37,798 --> 00:06:40,065 like, "Who fucking cares about our family, right?" Can I swear? 112 00:06:41,467 --> 00:06:43,135 Like, who cares about 113 00:06:43,137 --> 00:06:45,904 our stupid family and... (LAUGHING) 114 00:06:45,906 --> 00:06:48,173 Like, I'm sort of embarrassed. 115 00:06:48,175 --> 00:06:51,810 'Cause I think, "It's our family and every family has a story and..." 116 00:06:51,812 --> 00:06:54,479 But I do think it's really interesting to look at 117 00:06:54,481 --> 00:06:56,548 this one thing that happened 118 00:06:56,550 --> 00:06:59,718 and how it's refracted in so many different ways 119 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:01,486 and there's so many different angles. 120 00:07:02,990 --> 00:07:06,992 by describing Mum in as much detail as possible. 121 00:07:06,994 --> 00:07:09,127 Oh... (CLEARS THROAT) Well, Mum... 122 00:07:09,129 --> 00:07:12,631 Mom, I will refer her to as Mom, not Diane. 123 00:07:12,633 --> 00:07:16,868 She was... She was the most fun I could think of as a child. 124 00:07:16,870 --> 00:07:21,106 She was infectious, enthusiastic and excited 125 00:07:21,108 --> 00:07:22,207 about everything. 126 00:07:22,209 --> 00:07:26,011 My memory of Mom is, 127 00:07:26,013 --> 00:07:28,847 uh, of someone who was very loud. 128 00:07:28,849 --> 00:07:30,715 She walked very heavily 129 00:07:30,717 --> 00:07:33,685 and made the record skip, actually. (CHUCKLES) 130 00:07:33,687 --> 00:07:36,621 And my impression is she was a fun person at parties, 131 00:07:36,623 --> 00:07:39,157 that she was a fun person to have in an audience 132 00:07:39,159 --> 00:07:40,859 'cause she laughed loud. 133 00:07:40,861 --> 00:07:43,094 You can't... 134 00:07:43,096 --> 00:07:45,864 You can't talk about Diane, I don't think, without talking about her laugh. 135 00:07:45,866 --> 00:07:49,801 It infused every situation that she was in. 136 00:07:49,803 --> 00:07:54,005 What attracted people to her was a sense of joy. 137 00:07:54,007 --> 00:07:56,107 JOHN BUCHAN: She had a contagious personality, I thought, 138 00:07:56,109 --> 00:07:58,977 and when I was really young I used to, um, 139 00:07:58,979 --> 00:08:02,147 watch I Love Lucy and I actually thought that was her 140 00:08:02,149 --> 00:08:04,716 because she was sort of fun and goofy and... 141 00:08:04,718 --> 00:08:07,652 JOANNA: She was very warm, she was, you know, full of life 142 00:08:07,654 --> 00:08:11,056 and loved to dance and loved to party and laughing a lot 143 00:08:11,058 --> 00:08:13,091 and she loved to sing and she was the worst singer, 144 00:08:13,093 --> 00:08:20,165 I mean, there's a big tent within which you can enjoy life with her. 145 00:08:20,167 --> 00:08:23,969 There are people who just light up the life for those people around her. 146 00:08:23,971 --> 00:08:25,670 And people gravitate to them 147 00:08:25,672 --> 00:08:28,206 like a moth to the flame, you know? And that was her. 148 00:08:28,208 --> 00:08:30,242 MARK: And she also was very productive. 149 00:08:30,244 --> 00:08:32,978 Got a lot of things done, she was a very busy person 150 00:08:32,980 --> 00:08:35,180 and managed to juggle lots of different things. 151 00:08:35,182 --> 00:08:37,849 I remember her being on the phone a lot, for example, 152 00:08:37,851 --> 00:08:39,751 and I remember the hand saying, 153 00:08:39,753 --> 00:08:42,287 (WHISPERING) "Hold on. Shh! Shh! Hold on." 154 00:08:42,289 --> 00:08:44,756 Whenever I would meet Diane, 155 00:08:44,758 --> 00:08:48,994 I always found that she was in trouble. (CHUCKLES) 156 00:08:48,996 --> 00:08:51,830 Something she'd done. She'd left something in a cab, 157 00:08:51,832 --> 00:08:54,733 or she'd arrive saying, "Oh, you have to come with me. I have to go there 158 00:08:54,735 --> 00:08:58,803 And as we were walking, you know, she'd be ahead of me 159 00:08:58,805 --> 00:09:01,873 trying to tell me why everything was in disarray. 160 00:09:01,875 --> 00:09:05,277 Whenever I would see her it seemed as though... 161 00:09:05,279 --> 00:09:07,546 (SIGHS) Oh, something was going wrong, 162 00:09:07,548 --> 00:09:09,814 um, it was her fault 163 00:09:09,816 --> 00:09:13,251 and she was trying to sort it out and correct it. 164 00:09:13,253 --> 00:09:16,121 As I understand it, um, 165 00:09:16,123 --> 00:09:18,189 Mum was doing plays 166 00:09:18,191 --> 00:09:21,126 and she met Michael in one of those plays 167 00:09:21,128 --> 00:09:23,295 and she instantly, sort of, fell in love with him. 168 00:09:23,297 --> 00:09:25,864 MICHAEL: "In 1965, Michael played Mick 169 00:09:25,866 --> 00:09:28,934 "in The Caretaker's North American premiere. 170 00:09:28,936 --> 00:09:30,569 "He recalled an audience member 171 00:09:30,571 --> 00:09:32,671 "coming around to the dressing rooms later 172 00:09:32,673 --> 00:09:34,973 "to congratulate the lead actor 173 00:09:34,975 --> 00:09:37,275 "and that he was introduced to her. 174 00:09:37,277 --> 00:09:39,277 "Her name was Diane. 175 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:40,845 "And she loved the show so much 176 00:09:40,847 --> 00:09:43,348 "that she came back twice more during the run." 177 00:09:43,350 --> 00:09:45,250 MICHAEL: I think Diane 178 00:09:45,252 --> 00:09:48,954 fell in love with... Not with me, 179 00:09:48,956 --> 00:09:51,323 but with the character I was playing on stage. 180 00:09:51,325 --> 00:09:54,759 The character is something that is so different from me, 181 00:09:54,761 --> 00:09:58,597 it's such an exciting and dominating character. 182 00:09:58,599 --> 00:10:01,232 You can't take your eyes off that character. 183 00:10:01,234 --> 00:10:03,668 That's absolutely nothing like me at all, 184 00:10:03,670 --> 00:10:06,671 but you can see why I would want to play it. 185 00:10:06,673 --> 00:10:11,843 that Diane turns up to watch a performance by an actor 186 00:10:11,845 --> 00:10:13,812 and as she watches that performance, 187 00:10:13,814 --> 00:10:16,681 she sees that person 188 00:10:16,683 --> 00:10:19,784 is exactly what I'd been looking for all my life, 189 00:10:19,786 --> 00:10:22,954 somebody exciting, somebody full of intrigue. 190 00:10:22,956 --> 00:10:25,056 That's what I'd been looking for all my life. 191 00:10:25,058 --> 00:10:27,325 "She was an actress herself 192 00:10:27,327 --> 00:10:31,730 "and few months later they'd play together in The Condemned of Altona. 193 00:10:31,732 --> 00:10:34,032 "And that changed their lives irrevocably." 194 00:10:34,034 --> 00:10:36,868 MICHAEL: Diane was playing the part of the actress 195 00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:39,638 and me as the German officer. 196 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,774 Once again, this is a fascinating character. 197 00:10:42,776 --> 00:10:46,111 So, even in that play, we were playing two roles 198 00:10:46,113 --> 00:10:49,648 rather than Michael and Diane. 199 00:10:49,650 --> 00:10:52,917 And they talked at a party afterwards 200 00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:56,221 and they got into some weird discussion 201 00:10:56,223 --> 00:10:58,356 where Dad offered her a drive home 202 00:10:58,358 --> 00:11:00,825 and Mum said okay. 203 00:11:00,827 --> 00:11:03,061 MICHAEL: Yes, I did offer to drive her home. 204 00:11:03,063 --> 00:11:06,998 I said, "I got a Mercedes-Benz sports car sitting outside 205 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,299 "if you want a ride home." 206 00:11:08,301 --> 00:11:11,169 Dad admitted that he didn't have a car there. 207 00:11:11,171 --> 00:11:13,672 In fact, he didn't even drive. 208 00:11:13,674 --> 00:11:16,107 And Mum was the one that had a car there. 209 00:11:16,109 --> 00:11:20,712 So somehow, in the story, they're both lying to go home with each other. 210 00:11:20,714 --> 00:11:24,816 "And then they made love, Mick and Diane." 211 00:11:24,818 --> 00:11:30,155 "Now, let me continue by telling you another from Michael's artistic pursuits. 212 00:11:30,157 --> 00:11:31,823 "At about the time of his marriage to Diane, 213 00:11:31,825 --> 00:11:34,292 "Michael decided to purchase a movie camera 214 00:11:34,294 --> 00:11:37,262 "and to record their belated honeymoon in England. 215 00:11:37,264 --> 00:11:41,466 "Watching it, several features of his work become apparent." 216 00:11:41,468 --> 00:11:45,036 MICHAEL: Every time you see a group of people in my Super 8 movies, 217 00:11:45,038 --> 00:11:48,206 every time you see a few people, you get interested, 218 00:11:48,208 --> 00:11:51,342 the camera goes away and looks at the roof of a house or something 219 00:11:51,344 --> 00:11:54,746 (LAUGHS) or disappears in the distance, so... 220 00:11:54,748 --> 00:11:58,783 This is my way of filming, was not to include people too much. 221 00:11:58,785 --> 00:12:02,120 MICHAEL: "I gather that Diane did once say that on that trip 222 00:12:02,122 --> 00:12:05,390 "he spent more time gripping at the camera than he did holding her." 223 00:12:14,834 --> 00:12:17,969 MORT: I had a feeling they were incredibly different people. 224 00:12:17,971 --> 00:12:20,805 It was sort of amazing that they were together in some ways, 225 00:12:20,807 --> 00:12:22,807 'cause they were so, so different. 226 00:12:22,809 --> 00:12:26,277 I mean, as excitable that she was most of the time, 227 00:12:26,279 --> 00:12:28,813 he was calm or seemed to be. 228 00:12:28,815 --> 00:12:32,150 He was centered and inside himself. 229 00:12:32,152 --> 00:12:34,753 And she was so far outside of herself 230 00:12:34,755 --> 00:12:36,254 that sometimes there was nothing inside. 231 00:12:36,256 --> 00:12:38,389 Michael was a private person 232 00:12:38,391 --> 00:12:42,260 and Diane was not a private person. 233 00:12:42,262 --> 00:12:44,829 She really lacked guile. 234 00:12:44,831 --> 00:12:49,801 She did not have two faces for the world. 235 00:12:49,803 --> 00:12:52,303 I don't know if she showed different faces to different people, 236 00:12:52,305 --> 00:12:55,240 but I did sense that she was a woman of secrets. 237 00:12:56,408 --> 00:12:58,376 But they were artfully hidden. 238 00:12:58,378 --> 00:13:00,945 I mean, they were subtly hidden. 239 00:13:00,947 --> 00:13:05,150 And because she had a larger-than-life personality, 240 00:13:05,152 --> 00:13:07,485 you didn't look for the subtleties, 241 00:13:07,487 --> 00:13:09,487 because there was the razzle dazzle in front you. 242 00:13:11,090 --> 00:13:15,527 One of her great strengths, 243 00:13:15,529 --> 00:13:18,129 I think, was her vitality, 244 00:13:18,131 --> 00:13:23,835 her constant determination to live life to its fullest. 245 00:13:23,837 --> 00:13:26,371 I don't have anything like that in my character whatsoever. 246 00:13:26,373 --> 00:13:29,407 I love to play it as an act, 247 00:13:29,409 --> 00:13:32,210 but I can't live it as a human being. 248 00:13:32,212 --> 00:13:36,080 The idea of me jumping out of bed in the mornings, 249 00:13:36,082 --> 00:13:38,583 running around and doing things like Diane used to do... 250 00:13:38,585 --> 00:13:41,452 Diane would be doing 10 things at the same time, 251 00:13:41,454 --> 00:13:44,088 I'd be doing half of one thing, you know? (CHUCKLES) 252 00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:47,325 Diane was so attracted to his mind, 253 00:13:47,327 --> 00:13:52,997 but she yearned for more demonstrative affection from him. 254 00:13:52,999 --> 00:13:57,902 MARK: Dad says that Mum wanted to have sex a lot more than he did. 255 00:13:57,904 --> 00:14:01,239 When I ask him specific questions, like, about oral sex, 256 00:14:01,241 --> 00:14:04,542 Dad tells me that that is something that 257 00:14:04,544 --> 00:14:09,347 was thought of as something they did in France. (CHUCKLES) 258 00:14:09,349 --> 00:14:12,350 I sure have never thought of my dad as a prude. 259 00:14:12,352 --> 00:14:17,322 He will talk about anything and he is not shocked by anything, 260 00:14:17,324 --> 00:14:19,858 but it's kind of amazing to think of, that, 261 00:14:19,860 --> 00:14:22,193 you know, oral sex was something that... 262 00:14:22,195 --> 00:14:24,295 Maybe it was, I don't know, but... 263 00:14:24,297 --> 00:14:26,631 But it's amazing to think that, 264 00:14:26,633 --> 00:14:30,869 uh, you know that that was something that was so 265 00:14:30,871 --> 00:14:33,071 off the radar for him. (LAUGHING) 266 00:14:33,073 --> 00:14:35,473 So, I used to think... I used to think 267 00:14:36,942 --> 00:14:40,445 a night with a dead wombat 268 00:14:40,447 --> 00:14:42,881 might turn out to be more exciting 269 00:14:42,883 --> 00:14:46,384 than a night with me after you've been with me for 12 years. 270 00:14:46,386 --> 00:14:50,321 So, who knows? (LAUGHS) 271 00:14:50,323 --> 00:14:54,292 I mean, I was a good husband, I think, in a providing way, 272 00:14:54,294 --> 00:14:58,429 in terms of my contribution to the household running. 273 00:14:58,431 --> 00:15:01,299 Could you give me a list of the duties of the average husband 274 00:15:01,301 --> 00:15:04,168 so I could do a check-off? 275 00:15:04,170 --> 00:15:07,438 She did all the cooking, all the cleaning, all the taking care of the kids. 276 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,440 He didn't take any responsibility for us, 277 00:15:09,442 --> 00:15:11,409 he didn't make decisions about us, you know? 278 00:15:11,411 --> 00:15:16,281 and he thought that he had to be responsible. 279 00:15:16,283 --> 00:15:18,283 So he gave up acting 280 00:15:18,285 --> 00:15:21,953 and started working at Manufacturers Life Insurance Company. 281 00:15:21,955 --> 00:15:24,422 SUSY: Mum was frustrated by Michael. 282 00:15:24,424 --> 00:15:27,191 She saw Michael as an extremely talented man, 283 00:15:27,193 --> 00:15:30,295 a talented writer, a very talented actor, singer. 284 00:15:30,297 --> 00:15:35,233 I think in my mind it was, "Look at how hard I have worked 285 00:15:35,235 --> 00:15:38,169 "with very little God-given talent. 286 00:15:38,171 --> 00:15:42,140 "And look at this man, who is so talented in so many ways, 287 00:15:42,142 --> 00:15:44,275 "and he's throwing it away." 288 00:15:44,277 --> 00:15:47,979 VICTORIA MITCHELL: He was a good writer, but he didn't pursue it. 289 00:15:47,981 --> 00:15:50,214 And we all encouraged him. 290 00:15:50,216 --> 00:15:52,717 He just didn't. 291 00:15:52,719 --> 00:15:56,654 DEIRDRE: She got frustrated with him because she felt that he was enormously talented 292 00:15:56,656 --> 00:16:00,458 and was too willing to just do things 293 00:16:00,460 --> 00:16:05,096 for the small audience of he and Diane and the family. 294 00:16:05,098 --> 00:16:07,565 And while she knew him so well, 295 00:16:07,567 --> 00:16:10,635 she just so enjoyed his company. 296 00:16:10,637 --> 00:16:12,737 And I think as women we do that right, 297 00:16:12,739 --> 00:16:15,206 is that we choose the person we're in love with, 298 00:16:15,208 --> 00:16:17,542 or sometimes it chooses us. 299 00:16:17,544 --> 00:16:19,377 And then there's the rest of the life. 300 00:16:23,215 --> 00:16:25,583 MICHAEL: In 1978, 301 00:16:25,585 --> 00:16:28,419 she came to me one day and she said, 302 00:16:28,421 --> 00:16:31,422 "I've been offered a part 303 00:16:31,424 --> 00:16:36,094 "in a play called, oh, Toronto which is going to take place in Montreal." 304 00:16:36,096 --> 00:16:41,599 "Would you mind if I went off to Montreal for a couple of months? 305 00:16:41,601 --> 00:16:44,035 "Could you look after the kids while I'm gone?" 306 00:16:44,037 --> 00:16:45,570 "In truth, he was more than agreeable. 307 00:16:46,772 --> 00:16:48,072 "He was delighted. 308 00:16:50,075 --> 00:16:53,211 "Like many marriages, perhaps most, 309 00:16:53,213 --> 00:16:55,246 "this one had grown stale. 310 00:16:55,248 --> 00:16:58,649 "The passion of early year or two had long died. 311 00:16:58,651 --> 00:17:01,285 "Their lifestyles were totally different. 312 00:17:01,287 --> 00:17:05,123 "Diane loved parties, Michael, solitude. 313 00:17:05,125 --> 00:17:08,192 "Michael loved being alone and listening to music, 314 00:17:08,194 --> 00:17:10,194 "Diane danced to it. 315 00:17:10,196 --> 00:17:14,465 "She'd often complained of his coldness towards her 316 00:17:14,467 --> 00:17:18,202 "and not just in the marriage bed, but in all their time together. 317 00:17:18,204 --> 00:17:20,438 "He knew he disappointed her, 318 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,343 "that he had never lived up to her earlier vision of Mick and Franz 319 00:17:25,345 --> 00:17:27,478 "and he knew he never could." 320 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,180 SARAH: Dad, can you just take that line back? 321 00:17:29,182 --> 00:17:30,748 Yeah. 322 00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:34,118 God, you pick up all these little mistakes, don't you, now? 323 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:39,624 "that he had never lived up to her earlier visions of Mick and Franz 324 00:17:39,626 --> 00:17:41,726 "and he knew he never could. 325 00:17:41,728 --> 00:17:44,429 "So when Diane mentioned the possibility of acting 326 00:17:44,431 --> 00:17:47,131 "for six or seven weeks in Montreal, 327 00:17:47,133 --> 00:17:50,635 "Michael was quietly ecstatic 328 00:17:50,637 --> 00:17:53,204 "and openly enthusiastic." 329 00:17:53,206 --> 00:17:54,772 JOHN: Part of going to Montreal and doing the play 330 00:17:54,774 --> 00:17:57,141 was trying to sort of get out of her life. 331 00:17:57,143 --> 00:18:01,446 she wanted to live in Montreal or somewhere else. 332 00:18:01,448 --> 00:18:03,614 She always thought Toronto was such a reserved city 333 00:18:03,616 --> 00:18:05,683 and everybody was so, 334 00:18:05,685 --> 00:18:07,351 you know, work ethic, 335 00:18:07,353 --> 00:18:09,787 people lived to work instead of work to live, 336 00:18:09,789 --> 00:18:12,223 which has always been more the Montreal kind of thing. 337 00:18:12,225 --> 00:18:15,460 So it was like a way of her getting away from that 338 00:18:15,462 --> 00:18:17,829 and doing what she really wanted to do, which was stage. 339 00:18:17,831 --> 00:18:19,397 (UPBEAT PIANO MUSIC PLAYING) 340 00:18:33,645 --> 00:18:34,879 (INAUDIBLE OVER MUSIC) 341 00:18:41,787 --> 00:18:43,821 SARAH: Can you talk about the play 342 00:18:43,823 --> 00:18:45,823 that you were in together in Montreal? 343 00:18:45,825 --> 00:18:47,758 Can you describe what it was about? 344 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,660 GEOFF: It was a play called Toronto 345 00:18:49,662 --> 00:18:51,362 and it was about a bunch of people auditioning... 346 00:18:51,364 --> 00:18:52,797 I can't remember the... 347 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:55,500 I can't remember what she did 348 00:18:55,502 --> 00:18:57,668 (LAUGHING) in this play. 349 00:18:57,670 --> 00:19:00,705 It was about as unmemorable as they get. 350 00:19:00,707 --> 00:19:02,773 The guy had written a lot of great plays 351 00:19:02,775 --> 00:19:04,876 and I guess he needed some money. 352 00:19:04,878 --> 00:19:07,845 He was writing about his experiences in the theater world. 353 00:19:07,847 --> 00:19:10,815 I played the director of his new play 354 00:19:10,817 --> 00:19:13,885 and Wayne Robson and Geoffrey Bowes 355 00:19:13,887 --> 00:19:16,154 played actors who came in to audition 356 00:19:16,156 --> 00:19:18,789 and Diane played a reviewer. 357 00:19:18,791 --> 00:19:20,825 I said, "Diane, you're like a kid 358 00:19:20,827 --> 00:19:23,161 "running at the door for recess going, 359 00:19:23,163 --> 00:19:24,562 "'Yay!'" 360 00:19:24,564 --> 00:19:28,799 I guess it was her first time on the road on her own for a long time. 361 00:19:28,801 --> 00:19:33,771 in the dressing room, on the stage and then going out afterwards. 362 00:19:33,773 --> 00:19:36,574 She said, "Come down and have a visit 363 00:19:36,576 --> 00:19:38,609 "and come and see the play." 364 00:19:38,611 --> 00:19:41,279 During the time that I was there, what was interesting, 365 00:19:41,281 --> 00:19:44,315 I remember her talking about Michael a lot, 366 00:19:44,317 --> 00:19:47,418 because Michael was writing her passionate letters 367 00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:50,421 and, being Diane, she read some of it to me 368 00:19:50,423 --> 00:19:52,523 and I'm going, "But, Diane, this is private." 369 00:19:52,525 --> 00:19:54,292 But the thing about Diane is that 370 00:19:54,294 --> 00:19:57,461 what was happening in her life at the moment 371 00:19:57,463 --> 00:19:59,330 was what she talked about. 372 00:19:59,332 --> 00:20:02,366 As she talked, it felt like this was everything, 373 00:20:02,368 --> 00:20:04,368 that it was totally confessional 374 00:20:04,370 --> 00:20:07,238 and that you were hearing the full story of her life, 375 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,608 but I've realized now it must have been a part. 376 00:20:10,610 --> 00:20:12,610 So what I'm saying is that she had secrets. 377 00:20:15,247 --> 00:20:18,883 "Michael visited her after the second rehearsal week 378 00:20:18,885 --> 00:20:20,718 "and found her more alive and happy 379 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,653 "than she had been for many years. 380 00:20:23,789 --> 00:20:26,257 "He stayed with her two nights 381 00:20:26,259 --> 00:20:30,728 "and they made love again with all the passion that separation often brings. 382 00:20:30,730 --> 00:20:34,232 "Life was beginning again. 383 00:20:34,234 --> 00:20:37,902 "Oh, you know all about it and you know it's a delusion. 384 00:20:37,904 --> 00:20:40,671 "'It's all done with mirrors, mate,' they used to tell me. 385 00:20:42,374 --> 00:20:44,875 "Yes, the mirrors. 386 00:20:44,877 --> 00:20:49,447 "The mirrors in which you can see yourself clearly. 387 00:20:49,449 --> 00:20:52,483 "The mirrors through which you can see what you really look like." 388 00:20:55,020 --> 00:20:56,754 (SLURPING) 389 00:21:02,761 --> 00:21:06,564 "Diane came back to her Toronto and Michael, 390 00:21:06,566 --> 00:21:09,567 "and went full-time into her casting business 391 00:21:09,569 --> 00:21:12,503 "with Johnny as her assistant. 392 00:21:12,505 --> 00:21:15,740 "Her relationship, on a sexual level at least, with Michael 393 00:21:15,742 --> 00:21:18,009 "was really blooming again, 394 00:21:18,011 --> 00:21:19,810 "and after the long separation, 395 00:21:19,812 --> 00:21:22,947 "they were almost like newlyweds. 396 00:21:22,949 --> 00:21:25,750 "A few weeks later, she saw her doctor 397 00:21:25,752 --> 00:21:28,786 "who confirmed her pregnancy. 398 00:21:28,788 --> 00:21:31,956 "When she came home to tell Michael, she was clearly upset. 399 00:21:31,958 --> 00:21:35,826 MICHAEL: "I have talked to the doctor and the doctor says it's a bit dangerous 400 00:21:35,828 --> 00:21:38,562 "because of my age." I said, "Oh." 401 00:21:38,564 --> 00:21:41,299 "So what are you gonna do?" And she said, "I think, I... 402 00:21:41,301 --> 00:21:44,502 "Should seriously consider having an abortion." 403 00:21:44,504 --> 00:21:48,406 I said, "Well, if that's the way you feel about it... 404 00:21:48,408 --> 00:21:50,041 "That's okay with me, this is your decision. 405 00:21:50,043 --> 00:21:51,642 "It's your body not mine." 406 00:21:51,644 --> 00:21:53,411 "Diane said that 407 00:21:53,413 --> 00:21:56,380 "she felt she should have the baby aborted 408 00:21:56,382 --> 00:21:58,916 "as they could scarcely afford another. 409 00:21:58,918 --> 00:22:03,387 "He was disappointed, because he did love children, his in particular, 410 00:22:03,389 --> 00:22:06,590 "but he went along with the abortion idea. 411 00:22:06,592 --> 00:22:08,726 "Diane's brother, Bob was a doctor." 412 00:22:08,728 --> 00:22:10,461 BOB: I do recall, 413 00:22:10,463 --> 00:22:12,763 being at the office, actually, um, 414 00:22:12,765 --> 00:22:15,700 when I got a call from her. 415 00:22:15,702 --> 00:22:19,837 She was quite desperate because she was about 42 416 00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:23,074 and said that she was pregnant, that it wasn't planned, 417 00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:26,644 that she was desperately worried about Down syndrome. 418 00:22:26,646 --> 00:22:29,413 And at the time I was, I think, a bit more 419 00:22:30,615 --> 00:22:32,950 pro-life than pro-choice. 420 00:22:32,952 --> 00:22:34,618 So when your mother called, 421 00:22:34,620 --> 00:22:36,854 I believe that I steered her towards 422 00:22:36,856 --> 00:22:42,059 MICHAEL: Diane did arrange to go to the hospital for an abortion. 423 00:22:42,061 --> 00:22:45,563 And we were actually on the way down when she changed her mind. 424 00:22:45,565 --> 00:22:47,998 She suddenly said, "I can't go ahead with this." 425 00:22:49,768 --> 00:22:50,768 That is amazing, isn't it? 426 00:22:50,770 --> 00:22:51,869 I mean, how close 427 00:22:52,871 --> 00:22:55,973 we were to you never existing. 428 00:22:55,975 --> 00:22:58,809 (CHUCKLES) Yeah. 429 00:22:58,811 --> 00:23:01,612 It's almost enough to make you anti-abortionist, isn't it? 430 00:23:01,614 --> 00:23:03,013 (CHUCKLES) 431 00:23:05,484 --> 00:23:06,650 JOHN: She seemed sort of excited, 432 00:23:07,953 --> 00:23:09,987 because it was something new. 433 00:23:09,989 --> 00:23:12,490 She just loved new, you know? 434 00:23:12,492 --> 00:23:14,458 New is what she was all about. 435 00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:16,694 I mean, if there's such a thing as, like, 436 00:23:16,696 --> 00:23:18,028 in that spiritual sense, 437 00:23:18,030 --> 00:23:20,431 old souls and young souls, 438 00:23:20,433 --> 00:23:23,667 she was a really young soul I would say. (LAUGHING) 439 00:23:23,669 --> 00:23:25,803 I don't think your mother was 440 00:23:25,805 --> 00:23:27,872 elated that she was pregnant. (LAUGHING) 441 00:23:27,874 --> 00:23:30,741 I do not think so. No, I do not think so. 442 00:23:30,743 --> 00:23:32,476 I do not. 443 00:23:32,478 --> 00:23:33,611 I do not. 444 00:23:35,982 --> 00:23:41,752 "Diane and Michael did not act together again until the play Filumena 445 00:23:41,754 --> 00:23:44,021 "by Eduardo de Filippo. 446 00:23:44,023 --> 00:23:46,190 "Diane was to play the title role 447 00:23:46,192 --> 00:23:51,061 "Someone had seen them together in The Condemned of Altona 448 00:23:51,063 --> 00:23:52,696 "and had decided it would be nice 449 00:23:52,698 --> 00:23:55,466 "to see them together on stage once more. 450 00:23:55,468 --> 00:23:57,435 "It was a fine gesture 451 00:23:57,437 --> 00:24:00,004 "and they were delighted to do the piece." 452 00:24:00,006 --> 00:24:03,207 MICHAEL: Filumena was the play 453 00:24:03,209 --> 00:24:06,076 that became the movie, Marriage Italian Style, 454 00:24:06,078 --> 00:24:09,480 with Marcello Mastroianni and Sophia Loren. 455 00:24:09,482 --> 00:24:11,115 It's a fascinating story 456 00:24:11,117 --> 00:24:14,718 because they've lived together and she wants him to marry her. 457 00:24:16,888 --> 00:24:18,956 (SPEAKING ITALIAN) 458 00:24:26,598 --> 00:24:29,533 (SNORING) 459 00:24:29,535 --> 00:24:32,536 MICHAEL: She, the Sophia Loren part, has been a prostitute, 460 00:24:32,538 --> 00:24:34,905 and somehow, over that period of time, 461 00:24:34,907 --> 00:24:36,841 she has had three sons. 462 00:24:36,843 --> 00:24:39,043 He doesn't even know she has three sons. 463 00:24:39,045 --> 00:24:42,980 And she says to him, "I need to get you to legitimize my children. 464 00:24:42,982 --> 00:24:45,549 "Will you marry me?" And he says, "Why would I marry you?" 465 00:24:45,551 --> 00:24:46,951 And she says... 466 00:24:46,953 --> 00:24:48,686 (SPEAKING ITALIAN) 467 00:24:54,026 --> 00:24:59,763 MICHAEL: "Domenico tries to find out which of the lads is his, 468 00:24:59,765 --> 00:25:01,832 "but he totally fails, 469 00:25:01,834 --> 00:25:04,502 "since each is like him in some ways, 470 00:25:04,504 --> 00:25:06,670 "and completely different in others. 471 00:25:06,672 --> 00:25:09,874 "In desperation, Domenico marries Filumena 472 00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:13,244 "so that his true son can have the family he needs 473 00:25:13,246 --> 00:25:15,779 "and the future that one of his blood deserves. 474 00:25:17,649 --> 00:25:19,817 "Filumena's final words are, 475 00:25:20,819 --> 00:25:23,220 "'Children are children, 476 00:25:23,222 --> 00:25:25,122 "'and they are all equal.' 477 00:25:29,895 --> 00:25:32,696 "And so Diane and Michael played out their final act together, 478 00:25:33,999 --> 00:25:37,601 "though not knowing that it was just that." 479 00:25:37,603 --> 00:25:39,837 SARAH: Did anyone know she was going to die? 480 00:25:39,839 --> 00:25:43,107 What? Yeah, we all knew. 481 00:25:43,109 --> 00:25:45,876 Did anyone know she was gonna die? Well... 482 00:25:45,878 --> 00:25:47,244 When she had cancer? Mmm-hmm. 483 00:25:47,246 --> 00:25:49,079 Yeah? Did you know? 484 00:25:50,682 --> 00:25:52,016 No, you didn't know. SARAH: No. 485 00:25:52,018 --> 00:25:54,184 MORT: She was just a mess. 486 00:25:54,186 --> 00:25:56,220 She was very, very, very frightened. 487 00:25:56,222 --> 00:25:57,888 With so much energy, 488 00:25:57,890 --> 00:25:59,757 all of her energy was going into her 489 00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:02,960 uncertainty and her fear and unhappiness. 490 00:26:02,962 --> 00:26:05,796 And when I hugged her, it was like holding a... 491 00:26:05,798 --> 00:26:08,666 I don't know if you've ever held a bird in your hand. 492 00:26:08,668 --> 00:26:11,869 You know, it was terrified and you'd just feel its heartbeat. 493 00:26:11,871 --> 00:26:13,270 Do you know what I mean? SARAH: Mmm. 494 00:26:13,272 --> 00:26:15,639 She was just shaking. 495 00:26:15,641 --> 00:26:17,708 SARAH: Did you get the sense that she knew she was dying? 496 00:26:18,910 --> 00:26:20,978 (WHISPERS) Yeah. Yeah. 497 00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:23,213 (SOFTLY) She knew. 498 00:26:23,215 --> 00:26:26,617 MICHAEL: I don't think Diane ever fully realized. 499 00:26:26,619 --> 00:26:28,619 We never talked about any of the things 500 00:26:28,621 --> 00:26:32,790 I mean, when she came out of that last operation, 501 00:26:32,792 --> 00:26:35,993 I came home one day and she was out in the driveway, 502 00:26:35,995 --> 00:26:39,863 scraping down a table so that she could repaint it for the house, you know? 503 00:26:39,865 --> 00:26:42,166 Um... So I think, 504 00:26:43,902 --> 00:26:45,836 she didn't have any real sense. 505 00:26:45,838 --> 00:26:47,371 I said to her, 506 00:26:47,373 --> 00:26:49,740 "What on earth are you doing out here doing the table?" 507 00:26:49,742 --> 00:26:51,942 And she said, "Oh, well... 508 00:26:51,944 --> 00:26:54,678 "We got to get all these tables done, then we can have 'em all 509 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,115 "varnished the same color and everything." (CHUCKLES) 510 00:26:58,117 --> 00:27:00,084 I mean, that's not a person who's... 511 00:27:00,086 --> 00:27:04,622 As it was, turned out, sort of four or five weeks away from death. 512 00:27:04,624 --> 00:27:07,825 That's a person who's still planning her... 513 00:27:07,827 --> 00:27:10,227 How the house is gonna look. You know? 514 00:27:10,229 --> 00:27:12,896 As it progressed, she was more and more tired 515 00:27:12,898 --> 00:27:15,165 and the treatments were harder and harder on her. 516 00:27:16,735 --> 00:27:19,003 It was, uh... 517 00:27:19,005 --> 00:27:20,671 Man, she fought like crazy, you know? 518 00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:26,644 (SOFT PIANO MUSIC PLAYING) 519 00:27:33,084 --> 00:27:37,821 SARAH: What was it... Like, can you describe her memorial service at all? 520 00:27:37,823 --> 00:27:40,324 JOHN: It just seemed like a really big memorial service 521 00:27:40,326 --> 00:27:42,660 and I just remember, like, a lot of the people that spoke 522 00:27:42,662 --> 00:27:44,795 were, sort of, Canadian celebrity people, 523 00:27:44,797 --> 00:27:47,731 not necessarily the people that were closest to Mom in her life, 524 00:27:47,733 --> 00:27:50,134 but I remember thinking as I was watching it, 525 00:27:50,136 --> 00:27:52,102 "Gee, it's a good memorial service," 526 00:27:52,104 --> 00:27:55,372 and I think it's kind of nice to be in show business when you die 527 00:27:55,374 --> 00:27:58,242 because the people that speak are, like, good at speaking. 528 00:27:58,244 --> 00:28:00,411 She was very, very popular so, 529 00:28:00,413 --> 00:28:03,814 as you can imagine, there were many, many people there, 530 00:28:03,816 --> 00:28:06,884 but, to me, it was some kind of production. 531 00:28:06,886 --> 00:28:09,687 I felt like I was at a big play or something. 532 00:28:17,028 --> 00:28:19,697 I think in retrospect, after Mum died, 533 00:28:19,699 --> 00:28:21,965 Dad was depressed. 534 00:28:21,967 --> 00:28:25,302 You know, he seemed very rational about it as he always does, 535 00:28:25,304 --> 00:28:29,206 but the whole thing about him playing solitaire all the time 536 00:28:29,208 --> 00:28:32,476 and being even more isolated than usual, 537 00:28:32,478 --> 00:28:35,379 all suggest that he'd just sort of shut down. 538 00:28:35,381 --> 00:28:40,250 ANNE: I mean, going to visit him when he would be playing solitaire 539 00:28:40,252 --> 00:28:42,419 and wouldn't stop playing. 540 00:28:42,421 --> 00:28:45,189 As he just wanted to shut the world off. 541 00:28:45,191 --> 00:28:47,458 SUSY: It was very strange. 542 00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:51,995 It was sort of like walking into a home of utter neglect, 543 00:28:51,997 --> 00:28:55,766 and almost disuse. 544 00:28:55,768 --> 00:28:57,434 And I remember Dad, um... 545 00:28:59,104 --> 00:29:02,206 Just smoking all day. (CHUCKLES) 546 00:29:02,208 --> 00:29:04,441 And I remember him being very angry and upset about, 547 00:29:04,443 --> 00:29:06,310 "You're not taking care of the dog," 548 00:29:06,312 --> 00:29:10,347 which was a little bit weird, 'cause you sort of seemed 549 00:29:10,349 --> 00:29:12,349 like a little kid that nobody was taking care of. 550 00:29:14,152 --> 00:29:17,354 MICHAEL: It really, really knocked me out. 551 00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:19,857 And the other children had gone away. 552 00:29:19,859 --> 00:29:22,426 Suddenly there was just you and I left. 553 00:29:22,428 --> 00:29:25,496 Luckily, I had you there to look after as well as to look after me, you know? 554 00:29:25,498 --> 00:29:28,365 You were... What, were you 11 then? 555 00:29:28,367 --> 00:29:32,336 The next few years our relationship, I think, was a very, very... 556 00:29:32,338 --> 00:29:35,038 A great period from my life. 557 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,909 It certainly was an unusual relationship, too, 558 00:29:38,911 --> 00:29:41,111 in the sense, it's not very often 559 00:29:41,113 --> 00:29:44,114 that a father and a daughter are so close, 560 00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:46,283 because of circumstances. 561 00:29:46,285 --> 00:29:49,253 And so in a way, I felt closer to you 562 00:29:49,255 --> 00:29:51,188 than I'd ever felt about the other children, 563 00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:54,158 because there'd always been Diane there as well. 564 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,860 Suddenly, there was myself and this little girl. 565 00:29:56,862 --> 00:30:00,397 (STAMMERING) Four or five very close years we had together then. 566 00:30:13,178 --> 00:30:16,547 MICHAEL: "Mike remembers a time or two after Diane had died 567 00:30:16,549 --> 00:30:18,482 "when the children would come up for a Sunday dinner 568 00:30:18,484 --> 00:30:20,884 "to join Sarah and him. 569 00:30:20,886 --> 00:30:23,987 "And he remembers how, one day, someone said that Sarah 570 00:30:23,989 --> 00:30:26,056 "did not look at all like her father. 571 00:30:27,592 --> 00:30:31,228 "It's time to go back many years once more. 572 00:30:31,230 --> 00:30:34,565 "Johnny was working in the living room on a list for a casting call 573 00:30:34,567 --> 00:30:37,100 "and his mother was alone in the den. 574 00:30:37,102 --> 00:30:40,971 "Then he thought he heard something that sounded like distress, 575 00:30:40,973 --> 00:30:44,508 "and found himself being unable to resist moving a little closer. 576 00:30:44,510 --> 00:30:45,976 "He stopped. 577 00:30:45,978 --> 00:30:50,080 "And there was no doubt that she was crying." 578 00:30:50,082 --> 00:30:54,918 What I overheard was Mom saying that she was pregnant 579 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,855 and that she was considering an abortion. 580 00:30:57,857 --> 00:30:59,923 And that she wasn't sure who the father was. 581 00:31:03,394 --> 00:31:05,929 But I remember Mom, whoever she was talking to on the phone, 582 00:31:05,931 --> 00:31:08,632 talking about this big weekend that she and Michael had had 583 00:31:08,634 --> 00:31:11,969 and how it reinvigorated the relationship 584 00:31:11,971 --> 00:31:13,537 and he started to write her all these love letters 585 00:31:13,539 --> 00:31:16,139 after the weekend that they had in Montreal. 586 00:31:16,141 --> 00:31:20,444 It was clear that you had been conceived while Mom was in Montreal. 587 00:31:20,446 --> 00:31:22,346 "He listened for a while longer 588 00:31:22,348 --> 00:31:24,615 "then hurried guiltily back to his work in the living room. 589 00:31:26,017 --> 00:31:27,384 "He said nothing. 590 00:31:27,386 --> 00:31:29,286 "And so the event passed 591 00:31:29,288 --> 00:31:32,022 "and John kept it all to himself, 592 00:31:32,024 --> 00:31:35,292 "while an entire generation went to their graves." 593 00:31:35,294 --> 00:31:39,363 I guess I kind of stopped thinking about it because, 594 00:31:39,365 --> 00:31:43,667 The family was big enough mess already. 595 00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:47,571 Anyways, years later, when I was in my 20s, 596 00:31:47,573 --> 00:31:50,007 you know, long after Mom had died, 597 00:31:50,009 --> 00:31:54,278 Anne Tate mentioned something about somebody in Montreal 598 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,147 when Mum was in Montreal for that period of time. 599 00:31:57,149 --> 00:31:59,616 Johnny once led me 600 00:31:59,618 --> 00:32:01,385 into talking about that, 601 00:32:01,387 --> 00:32:05,422 because I think I was quite tight-lipped about it. 602 00:32:05,424 --> 00:32:10,961 I thought that this actor in the play might have been the father. 603 00:32:10,963 --> 00:32:13,430 Your father, (CHUCKLING) let's say it. 604 00:32:13,432 --> 00:32:17,534 It makes it sound as if she was terribly promiscuous, 605 00:32:17,536 --> 00:32:20,370 which, in fact, I don't think she was. 606 00:32:20,372 --> 00:32:23,974 But I think she did consider 607 00:32:23,976 --> 00:32:27,511 that it was possible that it could be this other guy. 608 00:32:27,513 --> 00:32:32,616 because we used to often have dinner together on weekends, 609 00:32:32,618 --> 00:32:35,519 probably Johnny started by saying, 610 00:32:35,521 --> 00:32:37,354 "You don't look much like your father." 611 00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:38,689 I think it was Johnny. 612 00:32:38,691 --> 00:32:40,390 I want to say it was Johnny. 613 00:32:40,392 --> 00:32:42,492 And, actually now, in retrospect that I know 614 00:32:42,494 --> 00:32:45,262 that Johnny was the first of us who knew, it must have been Johnny. 615 00:32:45,264 --> 00:32:49,399 I stupidly mentioned it to Mark, I thought. 616 00:32:49,401 --> 00:32:51,501 (LAUGHING) Um... 617 00:32:54,138 --> 00:32:58,075 Uh, my lawyer has said I don't have to talk to you and so... 618 00:32:58,077 --> 00:33:00,410 I'm not gonna say anything more. (CHUCKLING) 619 00:33:00,412 --> 00:33:03,613 I remember Johnny saying 620 00:33:03,615 --> 00:33:07,184 that someone thought that your father might be 621 00:33:07,186 --> 00:33:09,453 someone that Mom had acted with in a play. 622 00:33:09,455 --> 00:33:11,488 JOHN: And I told him not to say anything to anyone, 623 00:33:11,490 --> 00:33:13,623 but then they turned into a joke. 624 00:33:13,625 --> 00:33:16,093 And I did not participate in the joke, did I? 625 00:33:16,095 --> 00:33:18,028 I don't think I ever did. SARAH: I don't know. 626 00:33:18,030 --> 00:33:20,330 I remember we talked about how you didn't look like Dad 627 00:33:20,332 --> 00:33:22,132 and Dad joked about it. 628 00:33:22,134 --> 00:33:24,201 I always thought, 629 00:33:24,203 --> 00:33:28,071 "She does look like me, she's got that little straight nose. 630 00:33:28,073 --> 00:33:31,641 "Yeah, definitely, this is all nonsense, but it's fun. 631 00:33:31,643 --> 00:33:35,212 "Who do you think your father is this week, Sarah?" (CHUCKLES) 632 00:33:35,214 --> 00:33:37,247 The joke got bigger and bigger 633 00:33:37,249 --> 00:33:41,284 because we'd each compare you with one of these three actors. 634 00:33:41,286 --> 00:33:43,587 "They all knew of the three actors in question, 635 00:33:43,589 --> 00:33:46,023 "and had much fun with the characteristics 636 00:33:46,025 --> 00:33:47,324 "that they had in common with Sarah. 637 00:33:48,326 --> 00:33:50,660 "Sarah laughed. 638 00:33:50,662 --> 00:33:54,698 "They all laughed and the comparisons became a recurring source of amusement. 639 00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:59,102 "Was it Tom or Wayne or Geoff?" 640 00:33:59,104 --> 00:34:01,638 Could you just take back that one line? MICHAEL: Yeah. 641 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,610 "Was it Tom or Wayne or Geoff?" 642 00:34:06,612 --> 00:34:09,346 SARAH: Do you remember the name of the actor in the play 643 00:34:09,348 --> 00:34:11,281 who she thought might be my father? (BOTH LAUGHING) 644 00:34:11,283 --> 00:34:14,551 Yes, of course I remember his name! 645 00:34:14,553 --> 00:34:16,620 Do you want me to talk about that? 646 00:34:16,622 --> 00:34:18,422 SARAH: If... If you're comfortable. 647 00:34:18,424 --> 00:34:22,426 Well, it depends on whether he's comfortable, I would think. 648 00:34:22,428 --> 00:34:25,095 I mean, it was Geoff Bowes. 649 00:34:25,097 --> 00:34:27,130 The thinking was that it was Geoff Bowes. 650 00:34:27,132 --> 00:34:29,466 There was, I guess, an actor named Geoff Bowes. 651 00:34:29,468 --> 00:34:31,568 Geoff Bowes. (LAUGHING) 652 00:34:35,606 --> 00:34:37,407 That's what the film is gonna be like. 653 00:34:37,409 --> 00:34:39,743 Geoff Bowes! Geoff Bowes! 654 00:34:39,745 --> 00:34:43,513 Johnny pretended, that she'd mentioned 655 00:34:43,515 --> 00:34:47,150 Geoff Bowes and an affair with him and so I said, 656 00:34:47,152 --> 00:34:52,089 "Oh, well, okay. I'll tell you. Yes, she did tell me." 657 00:34:52,091 --> 00:34:55,525 (STAMMERING) What do you remember me saying? 658 00:34:55,527 --> 00:34:58,395 SARAH: Uh... I trust you more than I trust myself right now! 659 00:35:00,164 --> 00:35:03,133 JOANNA: At that point I opened Face to Face with Talent 660 00:35:03,135 --> 00:35:05,769 and looked at Geoff Bowes' picture, 661 00:35:05,771 --> 00:35:08,839 and thought, "Oh, yeah, for sure. Look how much he looks like him. 662 00:35:08,841 --> 00:35:10,574 "And he's short and he has red hair." 663 00:35:10,576 --> 00:35:12,642 And you were born with bright red hair. 664 00:35:12,644 --> 00:35:14,811 I instantly flashed back to Mom 665 00:35:14,813 --> 00:35:18,215 making a huge deal about you having red hair. 666 00:35:18,217 --> 00:35:20,851 It's like, you know when you're lying about something, you overplay it? 667 00:35:20,853 --> 00:35:25,655 She had gone on and on about, "How weird it is that Sarah has red hair! 668 00:35:25,657 --> 00:35:29,659 "It's so odd. Well, I guess my cousin Margaret Anne has red hair." 669 00:35:29,661 --> 00:35:32,462 And that struck me and then I saw him with the red hair 670 00:35:32,464 --> 00:35:37,334 and I really did think... Yeah, I really thought it was true. 671 00:35:37,336 --> 00:35:40,737 So at some point, I think I did start to believe it was true. 672 00:35:40,739 --> 00:35:42,906 And thought someone should say something to you. 673 00:35:42,908 --> 00:35:45,876 I feel like we all had a discussion about it at some point, 674 00:35:45,878 --> 00:35:47,744 we all being everyone but you. 675 00:35:47,746 --> 00:35:49,746 And I think Johnny said I had a big mouth 676 00:35:49,748 --> 00:35:52,215 and that I was probably gonna tell you or something. 677 00:35:52,217 --> 00:35:55,552 And I was saying, "I think we should tell her." 678 00:35:55,554 --> 00:35:58,321 "Now, I think we should leap forward to a point several years 679 00:35:58,323 --> 00:36:00,290 "after Diane's death, 680 00:36:00,292 --> 00:36:03,426 "when the jokes with her family around the dinner table 681 00:36:03,428 --> 00:36:05,462 "were not so funny. 682 00:36:05,464 --> 00:36:07,264 "And since it went further 683 00:36:07,266 --> 00:36:09,366 "and named the member of the cast of Toronto, 684 00:36:09,368 --> 00:36:11,768 "who was her possible parent, 685 00:36:11,770 --> 00:36:15,472 "she decided, it was time to take the plunge. 686 00:36:15,474 --> 00:36:17,440 "She phoned Geoff and asked if they could meet." 687 00:36:19,277 --> 00:36:20,510 You called, 688 00:36:21,546 --> 00:36:25,282 and we arranged to meet, 689 00:36:25,284 --> 00:36:28,285 and you wanted to know about that time in Montreal. 690 00:36:28,287 --> 00:36:32,422 "Oh, boy. I hope that isn't too forward or something." 691 00:36:32,424 --> 00:36:35,559 And I remember recounting some of the same tales. 692 00:36:35,561 --> 00:36:37,928 I hadn't really thought about Diane for a long time, 693 00:36:37,930 --> 00:36:41,431 so I recall being pretty sad. 694 00:36:41,433 --> 00:36:44,201 SARAH: So, since I was 18, 695 00:36:44,203 --> 00:36:47,337 there was this rumor that you were my biological father. 696 00:36:49,208 --> 00:36:53,977 It's like, how that rumor began, where did it come from? 697 00:36:53,979 --> 00:36:55,812 And I just wanted to ask you about that. 698 00:36:55,814 --> 00:36:58,648 Was there ever anything romantic in your relationship with Mom 699 00:36:58,650 --> 00:37:00,784 or was it always just friendship? 700 00:37:02,887 --> 00:37:04,988 Uh, it was friendship. Hmm. 701 00:37:04,990 --> 00:37:07,857 Um, yeah. I remember you saying... 702 00:37:07,859 --> 00:37:11,361 Being surprised at you saying, 703 00:37:11,363 --> 00:37:15,665 "It's common knowledge in my family that... 704 00:37:15,667 --> 00:37:17,834 "That my mum was in love with you." 705 00:37:17,836 --> 00:37:20,303 And I was taken aback at that. 706 00:37:21,505 --> 00:37:24,541 Uh... I was touched. 707 00:37:24,543 --> 00:37:27,877 But, uh, yeah... Um... 708 00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:34,818 MICHAEL: "Everything Geoff said suggested that he was certain 709 00:37:34,820 --> 00:37:39,322 "that Diane had stayed faithful to Michael, 710 00:37:39,324 --> 00:37:43,593 "but that seed of doubt had grown even larger in her mind. 711 00:37:43,595 --> 00:37:47,931 "She thought he was a lovely, open and generous person, 712 00:37:47,933 --> 00:37:51,301 "and yet she felt he was hiding something. 713 00:37:51,303 --> 00:37:55,305 "But, once again, she let the story lie. 714 00:37:55,307 --> 00:37:58,875 "And so the conundrum remained just that. 715 00:37:58,877 --> 00:38:03,313 "One day she chanced to meet a Montreal producer in Toronto, 716 00:38:03,315 --> 00:38:05,982 "and mentions that she is going to Montreal in couple of days, 717 00:38:07,385 --> 00:38:09,519 "and the producer says, 718 00:38:09,521 --> 00:38:12,922 "'While you're there, you might want to meet up with Harry Gulkin. 719 00:38:12,924 --> 00:38:15,025 "'He's an important film producer 720 00:38:15,027 --> 00:38:17,961 "'that your mother worked with as a casting director, 721 00:38:17,963 --> 00:38:21,731 "'and can probably tell you more about your mother in those days.' 722 00:38:21,733 --> 00:38:25,635 "And Sarah is very pleased. She always likes to hear about her mother's life 723 00:38:25,637 --> 00:38:27,437 "before Sarah's birth. 724 00:38:27,439 --> 00:38:29,806 "And she also realized that this Harry 725 00:38:29,808 --> 00:38:33,410 "may be able to shed more light on the possibility of her mother 726 00:38:33,412 --> 00:38:36,346 "having had an affair with a member of the cast. 727 00:38:36,348 --> 00:38:38,982 "And so, she phones Harry and asks 728 00:38:38,984 --> 00:38:42,018 "if she could get together with him for a chat." 729 00:38:42,020 --> 00:38:44,521 HARRY: "Hi, Sarah, and a warm welcome. 730 00:38:44,523 --> 00:38:47,023 "Arnie Gelbart told me you would like to see me. 731 00:38:47,025 --> 00:38:49,659 "That's good, because I would love to see you. 732 00:38:49,661 --> 00:38:52,762 "I can be reached in my office this afternoon or email me here during the day." 733 00:38:52,764 --> 00:38:57,934 "I always remember my mum talking about you with such affection. 734 00:38:57,936 --> 00:39:02,505 "Would you be free at 3:45 to meet at Excentris for a coffee?" 735 00:39:02,507 --> 00:39:04,341 MICHAEL: "He agrees, 736 00:39:04,343 --> 00:39:06,910 "and a couple of days later they meet in a restaurant. 737 00:39:06,912 --> 00:39:10,947 "What happens next is what I can remember of Sarah's relating the event." 738 00:39:17,521 --> 00:39:20,423 HARRY: I made my way to the Melies Cafe and there you were. 739 00:39:20,425 --> 00:39:22,992 Sat down and began to chat and you said that 740 00:39:22,994 --> 00:39:28,431 you had wanted to meet me because your mother had talked about me a lot. 741 00:39:28,433 --> 00:39:31,401 I remember we talked about a million things. 742 00:39:31,403 --> 00:39:34,904 You told me how you had quit school at 15, 743 00:39:34,906 --> 00:39:37,107 and that one of the dominating reasons was 744 00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:38,842 your politics at the time, 745 00:39:38,844 --> 00:39:41,077 and your desire to join the class struggle. 746 00:39:41,079 --> 00:39:42,946 That struck me as very interesting 747 00:39:42,948 --> 00:39:44,948 because I had done exactly the same thing. 748 00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:47,984 As we became very close during that conversation, 749 00:39:47,986 --> 00:39:50,620 we found a whole number of things in common, 750 00:39:50,622 --> 00:39:53,923 in terms of feelings, reactions, response. 751 00:39:53,925 --> 00:39:55,692 JOANNA: And I remember you saying as soon as you met him, 752 00:39:55,694 --> 00:39:58,128 you felt at ease with him in a certain way. 753 00:39:58,130 --> 00:40:01,564 And because you felt so at ease with him, you had decided to ask him 754 00:40:01,566 --> 00:40:04,634 if he knew anything about this rumor about 755 00:40:04,636 --> 00:40:07,704 Geoff Bowes being your dad. (LAUGHING) 756 00:40:07,706 --> 00:40:11,074 You asked him the question, "Have you ever heard anything about my mum 757 00:40:11,076 --> 00:40:13,877 "having had an affair while she was in Montreal?" 758 00:40:13,879 --> 00:40:16,846 HARRY: You sort of looked up and you said, "Do you think it was Geoff Bowes?" 759 00:40:18,082 --> 00:40:20,183 I said, "No." 760 00:40:20,185 --> 00:40:21,651 She said, "Do you know who it was?" 761 00:40:22,653 --> 00:40:24,521 I said, "Yes." 762 00:40:24,523 --> 00:40:26,556 "No, I know that Geoff Bowes isn't your dad." 763 00:40:26,558 --> 00:40:27,791 And you said, "How do you know that?" 764 00:40:27,793 --> 00:40:28,792 And he said, "'Cause I'm your dad." 765 00:40:30,428 --> 00:40:34,864 He said it's possible, not probable. 766 00:40:34,866 --> 00:40:37,467 I think those were the exact words you said to me on the phone, were they? 767 00:40:37,469 --> 00:40:40,770 "I thought that's why you wanted to speak to me, 768 00:40:40,772 --> 00:40:44,140 "because your mom and I had an affair." 769 00:40:44,142 --> 00:40:48,511 "In fact, she had an affair with me." 770 00:40:48,513 --> 00:40:49,712 And I said, "Me." 771 00:40:50,714 --> 00:40:51,948 (INAUDIBLE) 772 00:40:54,919 --> 00:40:56,753 HARRY: So you stopped for a moment. 773 00:40:56,755 --> 00:40:59,122 Then you said, "Do you still think so?" 774 00:40:59,124 --> 00:41:01,491 And I said, "After talking to you, 775 00:41:01,493 --> 00:41:04,661 "and looking at you for close to three hours, yes." 776 00:41:04,663 --> 00:41:05,995 I said, "What do you think?" 777 00:41:05,997 --> 00:41:09,699 And you said, "Yeah, I think so, too." 778 00:41:09,701 --> 00:41:11,034 "Sarah is speechless. 779 00:41:12,803 --> 00:41:16,706 "She's come all this way to find out about Geoff, 780 00:41:16,708 --> 00:41:19,142 "and now she's sitting with her mother's lover." 781 00:41:28,018 --> 00:41:29,018 HARRY: It was late February, 782 00:41:30,221 --> 00:41:32,121 of 1978. 783 00:41:32,123 --> 00:41:34,524 I was sort of mildly depressed. 784 00:41:34,526 --> 00:41:37,727 Mid-winter, nothing to do, living alone. 785 00:41:37,729 --> 00:41:40,663 And I decided to go to the Centaur Theatre 786 00:41:40,665 --> 00:41:44,267 to see the latest production of David Fennario. 787 00:41:44,269 --> 00:41:48,071 So I went down there, and after a minute, as the cast came on stage, 788 00:41:48,073 --> 00:41:52,742 I was transfixed by this glorious lady who was on stage, you know? 789 00:41:52,744 --> 00:41:54,277 Really just bowled over. 790 00:41:54,279 --> 00:41:55,812 When the play was over, 791 00:41:55,814 --> 00:41:58,615 I still had certain reserves of shyness, 792 00:41:58,617 --> 00:42:02,619 which still remains, so I didn't go backstage or anything. 793 00:42:02,621 --> 00:42:05,054 And I decided to have a nightcap at what I considered then 794 00:42:05,056 --> 00:42:08,091 my geriatric bar, the Troika. 795 00:42:08,093 --> 00:42:11,094 I ordered a drink and they had a sort of schmaltzy Russian trio, 796 00:42:11,096 --> 00:42:13,763 and after about five minutes, who walks in 797 00:42:13,765 --> 00:42:16,699 but this lady who'd been on stage with some other cast members. 798 00:42:16,701 --> 00:42:18,668 So, I figured, "Oh, my God." 799 00:42:18,670 --> 00:42:21,571 And I sort of sidled into the middle of the group, 800 00:42:21,573 --> 00:42:23,573 and, you know, I was able to inveigle myself 801 00:42:23,575 --> 00:42:25,909 into the conversation to some degree. 802 00:42:25,911 --> 00:42:29,145 And I did try to separate Diane from the group. 803 00:42:29,147 --> 00:42:31,848 But after about an hour, it really was hopeless. 804 00:42:31,850 --> 00:42:33,583 It wasn't gonna happen. 805 00:42:33,585 --> 00:42:35,618 It wasn't gonna happen. 806 00:42:35,620 --> 00:42:39,756 When Diane left the Troika, I walked with them and with her 807 00:42:39,758 --> 00:42:43,293 and I was trying again to kind of separate Diane. 808 00:42:43,295 --> 00:42:46,262 And she said, "No." She says, "But we can meet tomorrow night." 809 00:42:46,264 --> 00:42:48,298 We met every night after that 810 00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:50,033 for the remainder of the run, 811 00:42:50,035 --> 00:42:53,803 and there was a very strong mutual attraction. 812 00:42:53,805 --> 00:42:56,606 Very, very powerful thing. 813 00:42:56,608 --> 00:42:59,175 Harry would be down at the bottom of the stairs. 814 00:42:59,177 --> 00:43:01,911 We were in the upstairs theater and our dressing room was up there. 815 00:43:01,913 --> 00:43:04,781 And it made me think of stage-door Johnny's 816 00:43:04,783 --> 00:43:07,250 from those old Broadway movies, right? 817 00:43:07,252 --> 00:43:09,352 And I remember once he asked, "Is Diane there? 818 00:43:09,354 --> 00:43:11,588 "Could you go and tell her that I'm here?" 819 00:43:11,590 --> 00:43:13,356 You know, bound back upstairs, say, "Harry's here." 820 00:43:13,358 --> 00:43:15,091 "Okay." And then run back down the stairs. 821 00:43:15,093 --> 00:43:20,730 DEIRDRE: Harry developed this great, grand passion for her 822 00:43:20,732 --> 00:43:24,067 and I think of Harry turning to me and saying, 823 00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:26,703 "Isn't she wonderful? Isn't she amazing?" 824 00:43:26,705 --> 00:43:29,606 And I just found this highly amusing 825 00:43:29,608 --> 00:43:33,910 (CHUCKLES) because I understood that he was a super smart, 826 00:43:33,912 --> 00:43:37,380 sophisticated man with all kind of connections to the film business 827 00:43:37,382 --> 00:43:40,683 but his main topic of conversation with me 828 00:43:40,685 --> 00:43:43,820 was the wonderfulness of Diane, which was... 829 00:43:43,822 --> 00:43:45,989 I agreed with him, but it becomes thin 830 00:43:45,991 --> 00:43:49,225 in terms of conversation material, after a while. (LAUGHING) 831 00:43:49,227 --> 00:43:51,928 When you're in love like that, you become utterly selfish. 832 00:43:51,930 --> 00:43:54,097 SARAH: Hmm. 833 00:43:54,099 --> 00:43:57,800 You know, like, nothing that's happening to anyone else matters at all, 834 00:43:57,802 --> 00:44:01,304 or is a matter of any consideration. You just 835 00:44:01,306 --> 00:44:02,772 end up, sort of... 836 00:44:04,274 --> 00:44:07,043 Focused, intense, 837 00:44:07,045 --> 00:44:10,346 and just wanting to consume 838 00:44:10,348 --> 00:44:12,281 the object of your love, and nothing else 839 00:44:13,684 --> 00:44:14,384 exists. 840 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:19,122 MICHAEL: I visited once during the rehearsal period, 841 00:44:19,124 --> 00:44:22,191 and then I think I went up for the opening night. 842 00:44:22,193 --> 00:44:24,127 I guess Harry would have been there. 843 00:44:24,129 --> 00:44:28,297 But he wasn't sleeping with her that night, because I was. (LAUGHING) 844 00:44:28,299 --> 00:44:30,099 It's funny isn't it? I'm at that party, 845 00:44:30,101 --> 00:44:32,769 a couple of women came up to me 846 00:44:32,771 --> 00:44:37,140 and started hectoring me about how badly I treated Diane. 847 00:44:37,142 --> 00:44:39,876 "You really put her down an awful lot, you know." 848 00:44:39,878 --> 00:44:41,110 I was quite stunned. 849 00:44:41,112 --> 00:44:43,179 Nobody before had ever 850 00:44:44,982 --> 00:44:47,250 come right out and said that. 851 00:44:47,252 --> 00:44:50,853 I think certainly I began to think through this conversation. 852 00:44:50,855 --> 00:44:53,122 "Yeah, they're probably right. 853 00:44:53,124 --> 00:44:56,759 "I am an awful person for putting her down and if she lacks confidence, 854 00:44:56,761 --> 00:45:00,063 "it may well be because of some things that I have said in the past." 855 00:45:00,065 --> 00:45:01,798 And suddenly I thought, "Oh. 856 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,168 "I wonder if they knew about it." 857 00:45:05,170 --> 00:45:07,403 Well, Diane had probably talked to them about it. 858 00:45:07,405 --> 00:45:09,305 That she was thinking of leaving me 859 00:45:09,307 --> 00:45:12,208 'cause I was not much good for her confidence. 860 00:45:12,210 --> 00:45:16,879 And maybe they were sort of half-warning me of what was going on. 861 00:45:19,817 --> 00:45:23,186 Before she went back to Toronto, 862 00:45:23,188 --> 00:45:26,989 uh, I asked her to move to Montreal and to bring her kids here. 863 00:45:26,991 --> 00:45:29,258 It was complex and difficult. 864 00:45:29,260 --> 00:45:33,296 She had this passionate attachment to her kids and to her husband 865 00:45:33,298 --> 00:45:37,767 and she also had this attachment to me. 866 00:45:37,769 --> 00:45:40,470 And I had an attachment which was completely crazy. 867 00:45:40,472 --> 00:45:44,741 I was besotted, just utterly besotted. 868 00:45:44,743 --> 00:45:46,809 And she was so full of life, you know? 869 00:45:46,811 --> 00:45:49,479 And you just wanted to be there. 870 00:45:49,481 --> 00:45:53,916 You just wanted to be there, I mean it was... It was wild. 871 00:45:53,918 --> 00:45:56,152 How it would have been had we been living together? 872 00:45:56,154 --> 00:45:58,221 Well, I really have no idea, you know. SARAH: Hmm. 873 00:45:58,223 --> 00:46:03,760 HARRY: You don't know, like, what kind of clashes can develop, 874 00:46:03,762 --> 00:46:06,195 although I suspect that it would have been okay. 875 00:46:06,197 --> 00:46:07,263 I know it would have been okay. 876 00:46:08,265 --> 00:46:09,232 Um... 877 00:46:11,969 --> 00:46:14,137 Uh, both of us, 878 00:46:14,139 --> 00:46:19,909 both Harry and I met a person who was, uh, 879 00:46:19,911 --> 00:46:22,278 bored with her life as it currently was 880 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,248 and wanted something more exciting. Um... 881 00:46:25,250 --> 00:46:27,917 SARAH: Did she talk at all about her first marriage? 882 00:46:32,323 --> 00:46:37,126 except that it was very acrimonious and exceedingly difficult. 883 00:46:38,128 --> 00:46:41,130 And her great distress 884 00:46:42,199 --> 00:46:44,967 over losing the kids. 885 00:46:44,969 --> 00:46:48,504 SARAH: Can you tell the story of Mum's relationship with your dad? 886 00:46:48,506 --> 00:46:50,573 JOHN: Uh, well, they were married, 887 00:46:50,575 --> 00:46:54,811 and I don't know how deep her feelings were for him, 888 00:46:54,813 --> 00:46:56,445 but his feelings were deep. 889 00:46:56,447 --> 00:46:58,915 And it's awful to be in a relationship 890 00:46:58,917 --> 00:47:00,516 where one person loves the other 891 00:47:00,518 --> 00:47:03,085 much more than the other person loves them 892 00:47:03,087 --> 00:47:07,156 I think one person loves the other person more, 893 00:47:07,158 --> 00:47:09,125 but hopefully it's close 894 00:47:09,127 --> 00:47:12,495 and hopefully it goes up and down a little bit, you know? 895 00:47:12,497 --> 00:47:15,565 But it seems to me you never can both equally 896 00:47:15,567 --> 00:47:17,500 love each other the same amount. 897 00:47:17,502 --> 00:47:20,436 It's unfortunate, but it's just sort of a fact of life. 898 00:47:20,438 --> 00:47:22,872 George was the kind of guy that, 899 00:47:22,874 --> 00:47:25,875 that Mum's parents would have been very happy with. 900 00:47:25,877 --> 00:47:29,045 He had money and he had a good job, 901 00:47:29,047 --> 00:47:31,848 so my sense has always been that she married him early 902 00:47:31,850 --> 00:47:35,418 and she married him because he was the kind of person she was supposed to marry. 903 00:47:35,420 --> 00:47:37,854 JOHN: You know, and I think my dad was really controlling 904 00:47:37,856 --> 00:47:40,356 and my mum wanted to sort of get out from underneath that. 905 00:47:40,358 --> 00:47:43,559 She was always trying to get out from under anything 906 00:47:43,561 --> 00:47:48,497 that she felt controlled her or made her feel like her life was very regulated. 907 00:47:48,499 --> 00:47:50,132 I mean, we all feel that way. 908 00:47:50,134 --> 00:47:52,134 Like, I feel that way every garbage day, 909 00:47:52,136 --> 00:47:55,972 like, every time I have to take out the garbage, it's like, "Oh, my God." 910 00:47:55,974 --> 00:47:58,641 It just makes you realize you're just marking time 911 00:47:58,643 --> 00:48:02,345 and it's just one of those things that, um... 912 00:48:02,347 --> 00:48:05,147 In fact, I make my boyfriend take the garbage out now. (CHUCKLES) 913 00:48:05,149 --> 00:48:07,416 Then I don't have to think about it. 914 00:48:07,418 --> 00:48:10,386 SUSY: The trigger, the thing that compelled her to leave then and there 915 00:48:10,388 --> 00:48:13,456 was that I think she really fell in love 916 00:48:13,458 --> 00:48:18,327 and maybe realized, for the first time in her life, what her life could be. 917 00:48:18,329 --> 00:48:20,463 I think she saved herself. 918 00:48:20,465 --> 00:48:23,466 I think she grabbed on to a lifebuoy. 919 00:48:23,468 --> 00:48:27,370 I think she made a choice to live. 920 00:48:27,372 --> 00:48:30,406 I really, really do and, um... 921 00:48:31,408 --> 00:48:33,042 That was with Michael. 922 00:48:33,044 --> 00:48:35,578 She left my dad in the middle of a fight, 923 00:48:35,580 --> 00:48:38,314 threw her wedding ring in the snow, walked out 924 00:48:38,316 --> 00:48:40,583 and then came back the next day to get us 925 00:48:40,585 --> 00:48:41,617 and my dad had changed all the locks. 926 00:48:43,587 --> 00:48:46,455 (SINGING JAZZ SONG) 927 00:48:55,499 --> 00:48:58,534 MARK: Ultimately, George got custody of the kids 928 00:48:58,536 --> 00:49:02,438 and that was unheard of in the '60s 929 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,475 JOHN: And it was, apparently, the first time in Canada 930 00:49:06,477 --> 00:49:08,678 that a woman had ever lost custody of the kids 931 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,413 and it was because she left for another man 932 00:49:10,415 --> 00:49:13,182 and she wasn't "lady-like." 933 00:49:13,184 --> 00:49:14,483 (SONG CONTINUES) 934 00:49:27,130 --> 00:49:27,596 (SINGING) 935 00:49:28,999 --> 00:49:30,199 (SNIFFLES) 936 00:49:46,416 --> 00:49:48,084 (SNAPS FINGERS) I missed that line. 937 00:49:48,086 --> 00:49:49,385 (LAUGHS) 938 00:49:52,622 --> 00:49:56,592 (PROJECTOR WHIRRING) 939 00:49:56,594 --> 00:50:00,029 SUSY: I remember all of a sudden my mum not being around 940 00:50:00,031 --> 00:50:02,765 and I could remember adults crying 941 00:50:02,767 --> 00:50:05,334 and I couldn't believe adults would be crying. 942 00:50:05,336 --> 00:50:08,270 Seeing my mum with her knees pulled up to her chest 943 00:50:08,272 --> 00:50:10,473 just rocking back and forth. 944 00:50:10,475 --> 00:50:13,642 I knew as a child, the worst thing has happened, 945 00:50:13,644 --> 00:50:16,746 I'm not sure what it is, but the worst thing is happening. 946 00:50:16,748 --> 00:50:19,648 And I knew that there were other people 947 00:50:19,650 --> 00:50:22,451 who were gonna decide what happened to me 948 00:50:22,453 --> 00:50:24,754 and what happened to my mum. 949 00:50:24,756 --> 00:50:26,589 It... I had no control. 950 00:50:27,592 --> 00:50:32,528 'cause had we been asked we would have said we want to live with our mum. 951 00:50:32,530 --> 00:50:34,397 For sure, both of us would've. At that age 952 00:50:34,399 --> 00:50:36,766 who, you know... That's what you want. 953 00:50:36,768 --> 00:50:40,436 SUSY: We'd have visitation with my mum once a month, 954 00:50:40,438 --> 00:50:42,705 but we lived with my dad 955 00:50:42,707 --> 00:50:45,074 and there were couple of caregivers. 956 00:50:45,076 --> 00:50:46,809 One of them was an older woman 957 00:50:46,811 --> 00:50:49,745 who was physically abusive. 958 00:50:49,747 --> 00:50:52,048 A successive stepmother who abused us, 959 00:50:52,050 --> 00:50:55,117 you can keep this in. (LAUGHS) I don't care. 960 00:50:55,119 --> 00:50:57,386 I remember when Mum used to drive us home, 961 00:50:57,388 --> 00:51:00,222 when she'd say goodbye to us, all the time, she would cry and cry 962 00:51:00,224 --> 00:51:04,160 and I remember years later reminiscing back on that, 963 00:51:04,162 --> 00:51:06,228 how she would cry and cry and we'd be crying, 964 00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:09,098 then we'd have to say goodbye and go into the house 965 00:51:09,100 --> 00:51:11,100 and it was like we didn't want to leave 966 00:51:11,102 --> 00:51:12,068 'cause we wanted to be with her. 967 00:51:16,173 --> 00:51:17,606 SARAH: Hmm. 968 00:51:20,577 --> 00:51:22,778 MARK: But I would think that would just eat away at you 969 00:51:22,780 --> 00:51:24,780 every day of your life, right? That you missed 970 00:51:24,782 --> 00:51:27,383 so many moments with your kids. 971 00:51:27,385 --> 00:51:30,519 And, you know, so that's the happy stuff, right? 972 00:51:30,521 --> 00:51:31,654 You'd miss the happy stuff, 973 00:51:33,323 --> 00:51:35,858 but into that, that you'd miss... 974 00:51:35,860 --> 00:51:39,228 Uh, that she would have found out, ultimately, 975 00:51:39,230 --> 00:51:42,431 that she not only missed that, but she wasn't there to... (STAMMERS) 976 00:51:42,433 --> 00:51:43,699 (SNIFFLES) 977 00:51:46,236 --> 00:51:49,672 (CHUCKLES EMBARRASSEDLY) 978 00:51:49,674 --> 00:51:52,641 (VOICE SHAKING) Um, she wasn't there to protect them. 979 00:51:57,247 --> 00:51:58,214 Um... 980 00:52:00,884 --> 00:52:03,486 It's really bad being a parent, stupid, 981 00:52:05,222 --> 00:52:06,889 'cause you're... I mean, really, you know... 982 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:11,727 You really, uh, 983 00:52:13,163 --> 00:52:15,131 thought of your kid getting hurt 984 00:52:15,133 --> 00:52:17,500 and you not being there to protect them. 985 00:52:17,502 --> 00:52:19,568 You know that's gonna happen, 986 00:52:19,570 --> 00:52:23,572 but, um, Mum must have thought, 987 00:52:23,574 --> 00:52:26,809 like, "What did I do wrong that led to this?" That... 988 00:52:34,551 --> 00:52:38,220 So I think being back must have been terrible 989 00:52:38,222 --> 00:52:42,324 and must have made her sad all the time, right? 990 00:52:42,326 --> 00:52:46,795 And, you know, maybe that's also what I, sort of, pieced together and try... 991 00:52:46,797 --> 00:52:50,166 Making this assumption, that she was just keeping busy to forget the pain. 992 00:52:53,603 --> 00:52:55,704 SARAH: Did you get a sense that she felt guilty about the loss of her kids? 993 00:52:56,907 --> 00:52:59,441 Yes. Oh, yes. 994 00:53:01,878 --> 00:53:06,248 I think that it lodged a certain level of insecurity into her, 995 00:53:06,250 --> 00:53:08,584 which I think had some bearing 996 00:53:08,586 --> 00:53:10,319 on her decision not to 997 00:53:11,488 --> 00:53:13,556 come live with me. 998 00:53:13,558 --> 00:53:16,192 JOANNA: I can't imagine that she didn't struggle with it, 999 00:53:16,194 --> 00:53:20,296 but there was the fact that there was a house and a bunch of kids living in it, 1000 00:53:20,298 --> 00:53:23,699 that would have kept her and I guess she would have felt that 1001 00:53:23,701 --> 00:53:26,435 that was the right choice for her children, 1002 00:53:26,437 --> 00:53:31,540 and maybe for her, too. Maybe she still hoped that 1003 00:53:31,542 --> 00:53:33,442 her and Dad would fall in love again or something. 1004 00:53:36,213 --> 00:53:39,415 HARRY: A few months after we had first made contact in Montreal, 1005 00:53:39,417 --> 00:53:42,551 she phoned me and she told me that she was pregnant. 1006 00:53:42,553 --> 00:53:45,454 And she said that she thought that I was the father. 1007 00:53:45,456 --> 00:53:50,726 What she communicated to me, what I got from her was almost a thrill. 1008 00:53:50,728 --> 00:53:53,729 So in terms of the relationship with Michael and the house, 1009 00:53:53,731 --> 00:53:57,766 In terms of the relationship with me, she was thrilled. 1010 00:53:57,768 --> 00:54:01,237 I thought that would help me in my cause, in my pursuit. 1011 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,373 I mean, quite apart from the anticipation of a child, 1012 00:54:04,375 --> 00:54:09,478 I felt, well, this is a quiver in my bow, you know? (CHUCKLES) 1013 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,781 I mean, we have sort of more than an affair to deal with, 1014 00:54:12,783 --> 00:54:14,950 we have a child. 1015 00:54:14,952 --> 00:54:19,989 she sent me that picture holding you as a tiny infant. 1016 00:54:19,991 --> 00:54:23,525 And then she sent me a picture by yourself when you were one year old. 1017 00:54:27,364 --> 00:54:31,300 Subsequently, business brought me to Toronto quite frequently, 1018 00:54:31,302 --> 00:54:33,569 so I was there quite often and I would see Diane. 1019 00:54:33,571 --> 00:54:36,739 She would come to Montreal reasonably often. 1020 00:54:36,741 --> 00:54:39,441 Diane would introduce me to all her friends, 1021 00:54:39,443 --> 00:54:42,044 so our affair was a pretty open thing, 1022 00:54:42,046 --> 00:54:44,580 because you need that, too, and somehow you want that 1023 00:54:44,582 --> 00:54:47,750 in terms of a love affair, you need witnesses. 1024 00:54:47,752 --> 00:54:50,686 You need witnesses which, sort of, confirm you. 1025 00:54:50,688 --> 00:54:53,622 I think it was... It was very discreet. 1026 00:54:53,624 --> 00:54:57,493 I don't think it was really common knowledge. 1027 00:54:57,495 --> 00:54:59,862 I think there were a number of people who knew, 1028 00:54:59,864 --> 00:55:01,830 but nobody ever talked about it. 1029 00:55:01,832 --> 00:55:04,800 I told her I would never discuss it with anyone and I never did. 1030 00:55:05,969 --> 00:55:10,306 I promised, and she was my buddy, 1031 00:55:10,308 --> 00:55:13,442 and there was no way on God's earth I was gonna talk about it. 1032 00:55:13,444 --> 00:55:15,311 I couldn't do that to her. 1033 00:55:15,313 --> 00:55:17,012 HARRY: So there was this strange situation 1034 00:55:17,014 --> 00:55:19,548 of an openness of an ongoing affair 1035 00:55:19,550 --> 00:55:21,884 which went on for, I believe, a couple of years 1036 00:55:21,886 --> 00:55:23,719 in Montreal and in Toronto, 1037 00:55:23,721 --> 00:55:28,324 and yet no possibility of it ever developing into anything more. 1038 00:55:28,326 --> 00:55:30,659 What became clear at a certain point, 1039 00:55:30,661 --> 00:55:32,895 was that you were gonna grow up 1040 00:55:32,897 --> 00:55:39,034 and there was not only no point, that it would be absolutely a mistake 1041 00:55:39,036 --> 00:55:41,103 to cast a shadow on that. 1042 00:55:41,105 --> 00:55:42,838 (SOFT PIANO MUSIC PLAYING) 1043 00:56:06,096 --> 00:56:08,030 She operated on all these levels. 1044 00:56:08,032 --> 00:56:10,065 She was loyal on all these levels. 1045 00:56:10,067 --> 00:56:13,469 I think that she had the strength and the ability 1046 00:56:13,471 --> 00:56:15,003 to keep all her loyalties going, 1047 00:56:16,006 --> 00:56:18,774 I mean, the distance didn't help. 1048 00:56:18,776 --> 00:56:21,677 I mean, that, uh... 1049 00:56:21,679 --> 00:56:24,747 But on the other hand, to some degree, intensified it 1050 00:56:24,749 --> 00:56:28,717 because, you know, there's the longing that was involved 1051 00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,954 and I think that we remained in love for a very long time. 1052 00:56:40,530 --> 00:56:44,666 I remember at Diane's funeral, 1053 00:56:44,668 --> 00:56:46,568 they said, "You know, anybody can speak, 1054 00:56:46,570 --> 00:56:50,105 And I said, "That, I thought, would be very stupid. 1055 00:56:50,107 --> 00:56:52,908 "In what capacity I should speak?" So I didn't. 1056 00:56:52,910 --> 00:56:57,713 When it was over, I went to say my farewells and goodbyes to the family, 1057 00:56:57,715 --> 00:57:00,983 and I went to put my arms around Michael, 1058 00:57:00,985 --> 00:57:03,051 and I felt that he froze in my arms, 1059 00:57:03,053 --> 00:57:05,053 that he was uncomfortable with that. 1060 00:57:05,055 --> 00:57:06,588 That's what made me think that 1061 00:57:06,590 --> 00:57:08,490 perhaps Michael really knew, perhaps she told him. 1062 00:57:09,492 --> 00:57:10,859 What? 1063 00:57:10,861 --> 00:57:13,595 SARAH: Do you remember meeting Harry there? 1064 00:57:13,597 --> 00:57:15,697 I don't think he was there, was he? SARAH: Think so, yeah. 1065 00:57:15,699 --> 00:57:18,100 Was he there? SARAH: Yeah. 1066 00:57:18,102 --> 00:57:20,602 Oh, no, (STAMMERING) I... I didn't meet him there. 1067 00:57:20,604 --> 00:57:22,871 SARAH: Oh. 1068 00:57:22,873 --> 00:57:26,642 HARRY: I remember Anne Tait, who was the Master of Ceremonies. 1069 00:57:26,644 --> 00:57:28,544 She was speaking of Diane and then she said, 1070 00:57:28,546 --> 00:57:31,513 "And you know, sometimes Diane was a flirt, 1071 00:57:31,515 --> 00:57:32,948 "but her heart belonged to Michael." 1072 00:57:37,687 --> 00:57:39,988 On the way out after the ceremony, 1073 00:57:39,990 --> 00:57:43,659 your aunt, Anne, Michael's sister, she said to me, 1074 00:57:43,661 --> 00:57:47,129 "You see, Harry? Her heart really belonged to Michael." 1075 00:57:47,131 --> 00:57:50,799 So that sort of put paid to my sense of any further contact 1076 00:57:50,801 --> 00:57:54,536 with the Polley family, if I ever had had any sense that I should. 1077 00:57:54,538 --> 00:57:56,672 I figured I really better back right off, which I did, 1078 00:57:56,674 --> 00:58:03,579 I found her dying upsetting, then I found my inability, in those circumstances, 1079 00:58:03,581 --> 00:58:06,482 to do a proper farewell and to be part of it, 1080 00:58:06,484 --> 00:58:09,685 something that I felt bad about and regretted. 1081 00:58:09,687 --> 00:58:11,253 SARAH: Mmm. 1082 00:58:11,255 --> 00:58:14,122 MARIE MURPHY: Whenever Harry spoke of Diane, 1083 00:58:14,124 --> 00:58:18,026 from the beginning, he mentioned that she had had a daughter 1084 00:58:18,028 --> 00:58:19,962 as a result of their affair, 1085 00:58:19,964 --> 00:58:26,969 but all those years that he never saw you, it was never discussed. 1086 00:58:26,971 --> 00:58:29,204 Whenever I'd see articles about you or anything, 1087 00:58:29,206 --> 00:58:31,106 I'd say, "Harry, did you see the article?" 1088 00:58:31,108 --> 00:58:33,976 Just so that he'd be aware of what was happening. 1089 00:58:33,978 --> 00:58:37,880 But the day when he went down to meet you and came home, 1090 00:58:37,882 --> 00:58:41,016 it was like the world changed. 1091 00:58:41,018 --> 00:58:43,852 He was so happy 1092 00:58:43,854 --> 00:58:45,954 he could have a relationship with you. 1093 00:58:45,956 --> 00:58:50,225 So his whole world changed after that cafe meeting with you. 1094 00:58:50,227 --> 00:58:52,661 Through all the years that that never happened, 1095 00:58:52,663 --> 00:58:54,763 he never complained, he never said, "I wish." 1096 00:58:54,765 --> 00:58:57,132 I don't even think he said it to himself. 1097 00:58:57,134 --> 00:58:59,768 You know, he'd just, "If it's not gonna happen, 1098 00:58:59,770 --> 00:59:01,870 "if I can't do anything about it, 1099 00:59:01,872 --> 00:59:05,307 "I don't see it, it does not exist." That's the way he lives. 1100 00:59:05,309 --> 00:59:12,047 we began what was almost a frantic series of email exchanges 1101 00:59:12,049 --> 00:59:13,949 about continuing the encounter. 1102 00:59:13,951 --> 00:59:15,684 There was an intensity, 1103 00:59:15,686 --> 00:59:19,187 just really an incredible intensity 1104 00:59:19,189 --> 00:59:21,189 of affection, of love, I mean, it was... 1105 00:59:22,859 --> 00:59:24,860 Well, having gotten to know you, 1106 00:59:24,862 --> 00:59:27,062 much of that has dissipated, you know, it's gone away, but... (CHUCKLES) 1107 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:32,668 (STAMMERING) 1108 00:59:33,870 --> 00:59:35,971 (SARAH LAUGHING) 1109 00:59:35,973 --> 00:59:38,574 SARAH: "Hi, Harry, it was great to meet you. 1110 00:59:38,576 --> 00:59:40,842 "A complete pleasure and quite an occasion. 1111 00:59:40,844 --> 00:59:43,579 "I had no idea it would be so eventful. 1112 00:59:43,581 --> 00:59:46,315 "It was really just an afterthought to ask you about my mother's personal life. 1113 00:59:46,317 --> 00:59:49,918 "It just came out of feeling very comfortable with you and thinking, 1114 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:51,987 "'Why not ask him what he knows?' 1115 00:59:51,989 --> 00:59:55,591 "And then, well, what a delight to get so much information. 1116 00:59:55,593 --> 00:59:57,359 "I hope we can stay in touch. 1117 00:59:57,361 --> 00:59:59,828 "It was so great to spend some time. 1118 00:59:59,830 --> 01:00:01,964 "Now I'll watch the documentary about you. 1119 01:00:01,966 --> 01:00:04,299 "What a handy tool in a situation like this, 1120 01:00:04,301 --> 01:00:07,369 "to have an educational DVD on your previously unknown biological father." 1121 01:00:07,371 --> 01:00:14,042 FILM NARRATOR: Making his way from communism to commerce to culture, 1122 01:00:14,044 --> 01:00:16,645 Harry's many lives sometimes feel 1123 01:00:16,647 --> 01:00:20,315 like the cross-work patches of a harlequin costume. 1124 01:00:20,317 --> 01:00:23,352 When I first met Harry, he was a film producer 1125 01:00:23,354 --> 01:00:26,655 and Lies My Father Told Me had won Hollywood's Golden Globe 1126 01:00:26,657 --> 01:00:28,357 for Best Foreign Film. 1127 01:00:28,359 --> 01:00:32,361 The script by Ted Allan was nominated for an Oscar. 1128 01:00:32,363 --> 01:00:36,264 Lies My Father Told Me gave the fledgling Canadian film industry 1129 01:00:36,266 --> 01:00:39,334 artistic and professional credentials. 1130 01:00:39,336 --> 01:00:41,069 HARRY: "Hello, again, Sarah. 1131 01:00:41,071 --> 01:00:43,005 "I confess our encounter has stayed up 1132 01:00:43,007 --> 01:00:45,040 "for most of my consciousness, too. 1133 01:00:45,042 --> 01:00:47,109 "The emotions are conflicting. 1134 01:00:47,111 --> 01:00:51,213 "Joy of discovery, sweet memory obscured by sadness, 1135 01:00:51,215 --> 01:00:55,217 "and some concern as to how this reasonable, but unproven, assumption 1136 01:00:55,219 --> 01:00:58,320 "might affect you, as well as your family. 1137 01:00:58,322 --> 01:01:01,089 "We really need to take some time out to discuss this. 1138 01:01:01,091 --> 01:01:03,759 "Meanwhile, I suspect it would be prudent 1139 01:01:03,761 --> 01:01:06,728 "not to broadcast this putative discovery. 1140 01:01:06,730 --> 01:01:10,732 "In that respect, you would not be following in Diane's footsteps. 1141 01:01:10,734 --> 01:01:13,335 "She was apparently very pleased with the idea 1142 01:01:13,337 --> 01:01:16,204 "and didn't hesitate to share it with some others. 1143 01:01:16,206 --> 01:01:18,306 "What is beyond dispute, 1144 01:01:18,308 --> 01:01:22,010 "is that we have become close and loving friends." 1145 01:01:22,012 --> 01:01:25,213 SARAH: "Hi, there. I would love to discuss this some more. 1146 01:01:25,215 --> 01:01:28,350 "It's been interesting talking to my brother, Johnny, about it. 1147 01:01:28,352 --> 01:01:31,453 "We're both tremendously afraid of my dad finding out. 1148 01:01:31,455 --> 01:01:34,056 "It would destroy him, I think. 1149 01:01:34,058 --> 01:01:37,125 "So I'm quite resolved to not let him know about our conversation. 1150 01:01:37,127 --> 01:01:40,062 "However, I have been thinking that I'd really love to know for myself. 1151 01:01:40,064 --> 01:01:42,130 "I'm not sure why, but it feels like an odd question 1152 01:01:42,132 --> 01:01:44,132 "to not have answered once it's been raised." 1153 01:01:44,134 --> 01:01:46,735 MICHAEL: "Now was the moment when Sarah had suggested 1154 01:01:46,737 --> 01:01:49,971 "that a DNA test would settle the matter once and for all. 1155 01:01:49,973 --> 01:01:53,341 "Harry resisted and said he'd like to think it over. 1156 01:01:53,343 --> 01:01:56,445 "He was worried what effect it would have on Michael and his family 1157 01:01:56,447 --> 01:01:58,980 "if it turned out that Harry was the father. 1158 01:01:58,982 --> 01:02:01,116 "And he wasn't too sure how he would feel 1159 01:02:01,118 --> 01:02:04,019 "if Michael turned out to be the sperm donor. 1160 01:02:04,021 --> 01:02:07,923 "To save all hurts, why not leave things as they are?" 1161 01:02:07,925 --> 01:02:09,958 Dad, can you take that line back again? MICHAEL: Yeah. 1162 01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,060 "To save all hurts, 1163 01:02:12,062 --> 01:02:14,362 "why not leave things as they are?" 1164 01:02:17,433 --> 01:02:20,769 MARIE: The weekend you came to do the DNA test, 1165 01:02:20,771 --> 01:02:23,472 you walked in the door and it was kind of like, 1166 01:02:23,474 --> 01:02:26,875 "Well, let's put the spit on the stick first and get it over with." 1167 01:02:26,877 --> 01:02:28,777 I think it was one of the first things we did. 1168 01:02:28,779 --> 01:02:31,413 You came in, you sat down, get out the stick, you both spit. 1169 01:02:31,415 --> 01:02:35,450 You put 'em in and so we got that out of the way with lots of laughter. 1170 01:02:35,452 --> 01:02:38,487 And then, I think you were staying in our office, 1171 01:02:38,489 --> 01:02:42,791 and Cathy had given Harry a picture of herself with a big smile 1172 01:02:42,793 --> 01:02:44,860 and I had put it on his desk 1173 01:02:44,862 --> 01:02:47,863 and you look at the picture and you said, 1174 01:02:47,865 --> 01:02:51,166 (GASPS) "Oh, my God, we've got the same mouth!" 1175 01:02:51,168 --> 01:02:54,136 So I ran in and I looked at the picture 1176 01:02:54,138 --> 01:02:57,139 and I looked at your smile and I looked at Cathy's and I thought, 1177 01:02:57,141 --> 01:03:02,878 "You know, this is gonna work. This is the same family." 1178 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:05,781 "On Monday, January the 22nd, 2007, 1179 01:03:06,983 --> 01:03:10,085 "Sarah's life changed forever. 1180 01:03:10,087 --> 01:03:13,522 "She opened the registered letter and read the results. 1181 01:03:13,524 --> 01:03:15,457 "It recorded that Harry Gulkin 1182 01:03:15,459 --> 01:03:18,393 "was Sarah Polley's biological father 1183 01:03:18,395 --> 01:03:22,397 "and that the test results were 99% certain." 1184 01:03:22,399 --> 01:03:24,800 99.97%. 1185 01:03:24,802 --> 01:03:27,502 Sure, that was the level of probability. 1186 01:03:27,504 --> 01:03:31,373 "I won't even try to guess what her thoughts were, 1187 01:03:31,375 --> 01:03:36,011 "as she digested that stunning discovery." 1188 01:03:36,013 --> 01:03:38,480 MARIE: Twenty-eight years of sitting on something like that 1189 01:03:38,482 --> 01:03:43,585 And having the ability to know it indeed is true 1190 01:03:43,587 --> 01:03:47,189 was just sheer delight, exuberance. 1191 01:03:47,191 --> 01:03:51,159 "It's 99.9997 sure, 1192 01:03:51,161 --> 01:03:53,128 "I'm her father, yay!" 1193 01:03:53,130 --> 01:03:55,597 I use the expression "the honeymoon period." 1194 01:03:55,599 --> 01:03:57,332 Nothing but, "Isn't life wonderful?" 1195 01:03:57,334 --> 01:04:03,238 HARRY: "Hi, Sarah. I want to get up to Toronto as soon as feasible 1196 01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,574 "during one of the next few weekends 1197 01:04:05,576 --> 01:04:08,143 "so that I can introduce Cathy to her kid sister, 1198 01:04:08,145 --> 01:04:12,881 "It is understood that all of this will be done with the understanding 1199 01:04:12,883 --> 01:04:15,350 "that the news is not for general consumption. 1200 01:04:15,352 --> 01:04:18,153 "As for me, my heart is dancing. 1201 01:04:18,155 --> 01:04:21,423 "Sarah, for me, you're the bearer and the incarnation of pure joy. 1202 01:04:21,425 --> 01:04:24,025 "Love, Harry... Daddy." 1203 01:04:24,027 --> 01:04:27,329 I opened the door, you were at the door. (LAUGHS) 1204 01:04:27,331 --> 01:04:32,434 And you were wearing the identical sweatshirt I was wearing. 1205 01:04:32,436 --> 01:04:34,970 I have yet to see anyone else wear that sweatshirt. 1206 01:04:34,972 --> 01:04:39,608 And then, of course, you smiled and I saw the identical gummy grin 1207 01:04:39,610 --> 01:04:43,378 (LAUGHING) that I have, that I haven't seen on very many people, either. 1208 01:04:43,380 --> 01:04:46,314 And I went, "Yeah, yeah, we share DNA, that's for sure." 1209 01:04:46,316 --> 01:04:48,650 We express ourselves, I think, in a really similar way, you know? 1210 01:04:48,652 --> 01:04:52,153 We wave our arms around, we giggle a lot. 1211 01:04:52,155 --> 01:04:56,391 And then we realize that we could talk our heads off 1212 01:04:56,393 --> 01:05:00,595 for hours and hours and hours and hours and never run out of things to say. 1213 01:05:00,597 --> 01:05:03,431 SARAH: "Hi, Harry. Still thinking about the weekend. 1214 01:05:03,433 --> 01:05:06,501 "It was so great to meet Cathy and spend some time with you. 1215 01:05:06,503 --> 01:05:09,070 "I think our Passover plans are all in order. 1216 01:05:09,072 --> 01:05:11,339 "First time I've ever written that. 1217 01:05:11,341 --> 01:05:15,410 "I'm having a strange onslaught of guilt about my dad in all this. 1218 01:05:15,412 --> 01:05:18,480 "Sorting it through, but it's not at all easy or uncomplicated, 1219 01:05:18,482 --> 01:05:20,548 "as you warned. 1220 01:05:20,550 --> 01:05:23,251 "I'm sure time will make things clearer and easier. 1221 01:05:23,253 --> 01:05:26,087 "Looking forward to seeing you again soon." 1222 01:05:26,089 --> 01:05:28,023 MICHAEL: "Nothing could change about her love for Michael 1223 01:05:28,025 --> 01:05:29,925 "or for those who had suddenly become 1224 01:05:29,927 --> 01:05:32,394 "half-sisters and half-brothers. 1225 01:05:32,396 --> 01:05:36,231 "But now she had an entirely new half-family to get to know. 1226 01:05:38,100 --> 01:05:40,001 "Soon after reading that registered letter, 1227 01:05:40,003 --> 01:05:43,071 "Sarah tells the news to her brothers and sisters 1228 01:05:43,073 --> 01:05:46,141 "and the question of whether I should be told is now raised. 1229 01:05:46,143 --> 01:05:49,377 "Seems that only Mark felt I could handle it, 1230 01:05:49,379 --> 01:05:53,281 "but the consensus was that there really was no need to risk upsetting me 1231 01:05:53,283 --> 01:05:56,718 "and life could continue smoothly with me in ignorance." 1232 01:05:56,720 --> 01:06:01,356 SARAH: Can you talk about the impact that this news had on our family? 1233 01:06:01,358 --> 01:06:04,659 JOANNA: I don't get the sense that much changed in our family. 1234 01:06:04,661 --> 01:06:07,128 Um... Oh, except that we all got divorced. 1235 01:06:07,130 --> 01:06:09,297 (LAUGHING) 1236 01:06:09,299 --> 01:06:12,567 Forgot about that. Whoops. Um... (LAUGHING) 1237 01:06:12,569 --> 01:06:16,538 Except all three daughters got divorced. 1238 01:06:16,540 --> 01:06:18,239 Yeah, good point. 1239 01:06:19,241 --> 01:06:21,076 Good point. 1240 01:06:21,078 --> 01:06:23,478 Yeah, God, I guess we all... (CHUCKLES) 1241 01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:25,647 We all had interesting reactions to it. 1242 01:06:25,649 --> 01:06:28,049 I feel like Mark worked the other way. 1243 01:06:28,051 --> 01:06:31,052 He worked to solidify the family he had. 1244 01:06:31,054 --> 01:06:34,522 And we three daughters hightailed it. (LAUGHING) 1245 01:06:36,659 --> 01:06:40,161 So other than that, nothing. (CHUCKLING) 1246 01:06:40,163 --> 01:06:44,566 SUSY: It does sort of make you alter the way that you look at your relationship. 1247 01:06:44,568 --> 01:06:47,435 A truth like that that opens up 1248 01:06:47,437 --> 01:06:50,171 kind of begets other truths. 1249 01:06:50,173 --> 01:06:53,408 And when you discover truths like that, 1250 01:06:53,410 --> 01:06:59,047 how you think about truths within that are concealed... 1251 01:06:59,049 --> 01:07:05,020 when you hear about someone doing that and breaking the rules, 1252 01:07:05,022 --> 01:07:07,589 it breaks a kind of taboo and it makes you think, 1253 01:07:07,591 --> 01:07:09,758 "We're all struggling with the same kinds of problems 1254 01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,560 "and look at the mess she got into 1255 01:07:12,562 --> 01:07:15,296 "trying to look like everything was okay." 1256 01:07:15,298 --> 01:07:18,700 JOHN: It seemed to me like it was difficult for Mark, I think. 1257 01:07:18,702 --> 01:07:23,071 The biggest thing with him, I got, was that he was disappointed in Mum. 1258 01:07:23,073 --> 01:07:24,606 Did you get that? SARAH: Mmm-hmm. 1259 01:07:24,608 --> 01:07:26,441 I think that was it. 1260 01:07:26,443 --> 01:07:29,177 He was disappointed and sort of surprised 1261 01:07:29,179 --> 01:07:32,080 and, um, I guess, I wasn't. 1262 01:07:32,082 --> 01:07:35,683 MARK: I think the main thing that I felt after hearing the news about Harry, 1263 01:07:35,685 --> 01:07:39,120 was my feeling critical of Mum 1264 01:07:39,122 --> 01:07:44,459 she was reckless, (CHUCKLES) presumably in terms of birth control, 1265 01:07:44,461 --> 01:07:46,594 and ends up having a baby. 1266 01:07:46,596 --> 01:07:51,399 To think how crazy it was of her to be that out of control. 1267 01:07:51,401 --> 01:07:53,768 It's a pretty scary scenario, 1268 01:07:53,770 --> 01:07:58,540 the idea of having a kid that belongs to someone else, biologically, 1269 01:07:58,542 --> 01:08:02,110 and you have to try to carry on your life hiding that fact 1270 01:08:02,112 --> 01:08:03,778 from the people you are closest to. 1271 01:08:03,780 --> 01:08:06,614 The complexity of lying about it 1272 01:08:06,616 --> 01:08:10,852 and the stress that that would put on your life is a bit terrifying. 1273 01:08:10,854 --> 01:08:14,255 You know, it's a real lesson about birth control when you're having affairs, 1274 01:08:14,257 --> 01:08:16,324 if nothing else. 1275 01:08:16,326 --> 01:08:18,259 SARAH: Thanks a lot. (LAUGHS) 1276 01:08:18,261 --> 01:08:20,495 And then we'd all be better off. 1277 01:08:20,497 --> 01:08:23,731 It's like this is It's a Wonderful Life. (CHUCKLES) 1278 01:08:23,733 --> 01:08:26,301 Oh, no, it was the reverse. (CHUCKLES) 1279 01:08:26,303 --> 01:08:31,606 "and Sarah went to Montreal for the shoot of Mr. Nobody. 1280 01:08:31,608 --> 01:08:33,408 "Little time in all that to consider 1281 01:08:33,410 --> 01:08:36,377 "whether she should tell me of the DNA test. 1282 01:08:36,379 --> 01:08:41,182 "shooting a scene as a young Neanderthal woman." 1283 01:08:41,184 --> 01:08:41,783 NEMO: I often have this dream, 1284 01:08:43,185 --> 01:08:44,452 some prehistoric time. 1285 01:08:44,454 --> 01:08:46,554 (GROWLING) 1286 01:08:46,556 --> 01:08:47,789 I can hear you screaming... 1287 01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:52,327 I chased the bear. 1288 01:08:53,529 --> 01:08:55,864 And you're not afraid anymore. 1289 01:08:55,866 --> 01:08:58,366 "Sarah is sitting around in her makeup 1290 01:08:58,368 --> 01:09:01,169 "and prosthetic Neanderthal forehead, 1291 01:09:01,171 --> 01:09:04,506 "when she gets a phone call from a reporter in Toronto. 1292 01:09:04,508 --> 01:09:06,841 "He tells her that he's just heard the story of her 1293 01:09:06,843 --> 01:09:09,410 "discovering her lost biological father 1294 01:09:09,412 --> 01:09:12,180 "and would like to run it in his Toronto newspaper, 1295 01:09:12,182 --> 01:09:15,250 "with her reaction to this amazing discovery. 1296 01:09:15,252 --> 01:09:17,352 "Sarah is appalled. 1297 01:09:17,354 --> 01:09:18,887 "She has not told me 1298 01:09:18,889 --> 01:09:22,323 "and, at this juncture, is not sure that she ever will. 1299 01:09:22,325 --> 01:09:25,293 "She begins to cry and begs the reporter not to run the story, 1300 01:09:25,295 --> 01:09:27,428 "because she's not yet told her father. 1301 01:09:27,430 --> 01:09:30,331 "The reporter points out this is a very happy story 1302 01:09:30,333 --> 01:09:32,400 "and there's no reason to cry about it. 1303 01:09:32,402 --> 01:09:35,270 "But Sarah cries even harder. 1304 01:09:35,272 --> 01:09:37,205 "She runs out into the street with her cellphone 1305 01:09:37,207 --> 01:09:39,207 "so that no one on the set would see her, 1306 01:09:39,209 --> 01:09:41,910 "and she crosses to a park and seeks refuge on a bench. 1307 01:09:41,912 --> 01:09:44,345 "There she begs the man not to go ahead, 1308 01:09:44,347 --> 01:09:47,649 "at least until she's contacted her father. 1309 01:09:47,651 --> 01:09:51,219 "Sarah continued her cry for some minutes after the call, 1310 01:09:51,221 --> 01:09:53,321 "and then she noticed a considerable number of people 1311 01:09:53,323 --> 01:09:55,490 "were looking at her and she recalls thinking 1312 01:09:55,492 --> 01:09:58,793 "how different Montrealers were from their Toronto counterparts, 1313 01:09:58,795 --> 01:10:00,929 "who, observing a young girl in tears, 1314 01:10:00,931 --> 01:10:03,331 "would have pretended it never happened. 1315 01:10:03,333 --> 01:10:06,801 "She went back into the studio to wash her tearstained face, 1316 01:10:06,803 --> 01:10:08,603 "and there was this Neanderthal woman 1317 01:10:08,605 --> 01:10:09,637 "staring at her in the mirror. 1318 01:10:10,639 --> 01:10:12,807 (CHUCKLES) 1319 01:10:12,809 --> 01:10:13,875 "You see, you just can't keep 1320 01:10:13,877 --> 01:10:16,844 "the mask of comedy at bay. 1321 01:10:16,846 --> 01:10:19,948 "It watches old tragedy doing its bit, 1322 01:10:19,950 --> 01:10:22,850 "and the moment he lets his guard down, 1323 01:10:22,852 --> 01:10:26,654 "our comedy turns up the corners of his mouth. 1324 01:10:26,656 --> 01:10:29,691 "But it was an alarming and unforeseen turn of events 1325 01:10:29,693 --> 01:10:33,428 "and Sarah now knew that she would have to tell me everything. 1326 01:10:33,430 --> 01:10:35,730 "Sarah was last able to email me 1327 01:10:35,732 --> 01:10:39,634 "that she was leaving Montreal on Thursday the 24th, 1328 01:10:39,636 --> 01:10:42,870 "and that she would like to come around to my place for tea. 1329 01:10:42,872 --> 01:10:45,340 "Thursday came, and I cleaned off a table, 1330 01:10:45,342 --> 01:10:48,543 "and made a bit of an effort to clean up my living space a little. 1331 01:10:48,545 --> 01:10:50,712 "I even swatted my fly, 1332 01:10:50,714 --> 01:10:56,251 "Flies are frequently my companions in this loft. 1333 01:10:56,253 --> 01:10:58,553 "They invariably arrive only one at a time 1334 01:10:58,555 --> 01:11:01,789 "and I do my best to make them feel comfortable. 1335 01:11:01,791 --> 01:11:04,626 "I told you already that I'm not particularly sociable person. 1336 01:11:04,628 --> 01:11:07,662 "There's no doubt that I'm more at ease with flies, 1337 01:11:07,664 --> 01:11:09,530 "at least solitary ones. 1338 01:11:09,532 --> 01:11:11,799 "I must confess that I talk to them, 1339 01:11:11,801 --> 01:11:15,536 "and I'm not at all discomforted by their failure to reply. 1340 01:11:15,538 --> 01:11:19,274 "And they're alone, like me. 1341 01:11:19,276 --> 01:11:22,010 "Sorry about this digression but I hope it will give you some idea 1342 01:11:22,012 --> 01:11:24,279 "of the sacrifice I made with my swatter 1343 01:11:24,281 --> 01:11:26,714 "before Sarah's arrival. 1344 01:11:26,716 --> 01:11:29,884 "And once she got here, I made her sit down at the table 1345 01:11:29,886 --> 01:11:33,021 "and went right into my main entertainment to the meal, 1346 01:11:33,023 --> 01:11:35,323 "which was the story of Anna Christie 1347 01:11:35,325 --> 01:11:37,525 "and which led to my demonstration of 1348 01:11:37,527 --> 01:11:40,862 "the acting of drunkenness throughout the 20th century. 1349 01:11:40,864 --> 01:11:45,333 "The night before I'd seen Garbo in her first talkie along with Marie Dressler, 1350 01:11:45,335 --> 01:11:47,902 "and I found her acting fascinating. 1351 01:11:47,904 --> 01:11:49,404 "You know, I can go on about these 1352 01:11:49,406 --> 01:11:51,072 "thespian matters for some hours. 1353 01:11:55,477 --> 01:11:57,712 "So, the tea and the rice pudding 1354 01:11:57,714 --> 01:11:59,447 "were already on the table in front of Sarah 1355 01:11:59,449 --> 01:12:01,683 "before she got a chance to speak." 1356 01:12:01,685 --> 01:12:04,619 And you were sitting on the opposite side of the table from me, 1357 01:12:05,989 --> 01:12:09,857 but I didn't think you had anything important to say. 1358 01:12:09,859 --> 01:12:15,563 So, when I finally got to the end of my story you said something like, 1359 01:12:15,565 --> 01:12:18,499 "The reason I wanted to come and see you is that 1360 01:12:18,501 --> 01:12:21,803 "I have something kind of important to tell you." 1361 01:12:21,805 --> 01:12:23,971 Then you started into the story, 1362 01:12:23,973 --> 01:12:29,077 and it took you quite a while to get to the moment of truth, 1363 01:12:29,079 --> 01:12:31,346 if we can use that expression. 1364 01:12:31,348 --> 01:12:33,881 That great moment of truth. 1365 01:12:33,883 --> 01:12:35,550 When I suddenly realized, 1366 01:12:36,919 --> 01:12:39,487 "My God, what she's saying is, 1367 01:12:39,489 --> 01:12:41,589 "that I'm not actually her biological father." 1368 01:12:46,595 --> 01:12:49,831 MICHAEL: "I sat there in abject silence, 1369 01:12:49,833 --> 01:12:52,767 "as Sarah must have done when she found that Harry was her father. 1370 01:12:53,969 --> 01:12:56,070 "Thoughts ran in and out of my mind. 1371 01:12:57,473 --> 01:12:58,806 "'That's impossible.' 1372 01:12:58,808 --> 01:13:00,641 "'It couldn't be.' 1373 01:13:00,643 --> 01:13:01,976 "'I'm dreaming.'" 1374 01:13:04,780 --> 01:13:07,815 I was quite stunned. 1375 01:13:07,817 --> 01:13:10,785 My God, all this stuff we've been 1376 01:13:10,787 --> 01:13:12,520 joking about for years, 1377 01:13:13,722 --> 01:13:16,157 is actually true. 1378 01:13:16,159 --> 01:13:19,026 It took me a while to recover and... 1379 01:13:21,964 --> 01:13:24,465 And then I remember saying... (CHUCKLES) 1380 01:13:25,667 --> 01:13:28,536 "Harry? Harry Gulkin?" 1381 01:13:28,538 --> 01:13:30,638 And then you said something like, 1382 01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:32,507 "But it doesn't make any difference, does it?" 1383 01:13:32,509 --> 01:13:34,809 (STAMMERING) 1384 01:13:34,811 --> 01:13:37,945 "No, it doesn't make any difference at all. Not to you and I, 1385 01:13:37,947 --> 01:13:40,081 "in terms of our relationship. 1386 01:13:40,083 --> 01:13:41,949 "I mean, it's still exactly the same as it was before, but..." 1387 01:13:42,951 --> 01:13:46,087 Um... 1388 01:13:46,089 --> 01:13:49,190 And then I remember you came around the table 1389 01:13:49,192 --> 01:13:52,126 and put your arm around my shoulder and said, 1390 01:13:52,128 --> 01:13:55,696 "No, I'm so glad. It doesn't make any difference, does it?" 1391 01:13:55,698 --> 01:13:58,032 And I was, uh... 1392 01:13:58,034 --> 01:14:00,668 I thought it was funny. You know, that's the closest we've been 1393 01:14:00,670 --> 01:14:02,203 in quite a few years. 1394 01:14:02,205 --> 01:14:04,038 To put your arm around me and say, 1395 01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:05,740 "Oh, Dad, it doesn't make any difference." 1396 01:14:07,609 --> 01:14:09,811 And I suppose I asked you 1397 01:14:09,813 --> 01:14:13,648 a few more questions, then, about it, because 1398 01:14:13,650 --> 01:14:18,019 it was a tremendous story you were telling me 1399 01:14:18,021 --> 01:14:20,855 and so many little coincidences 1400 01:14:20,857 --> 01:14:23,057 and strange things had happened. 1401 01:14:24,927 --> 01:14:26,627 And suddenly I began to realize, 1402 01:14:26,629 --> 01:14:28,729 "My God, this is a great story. 1403 01:14:29,965 --> 01:14:33,634 "This is a great, great story." 1404 01:14:33,636 --> 01:14:35,236 I mean, I enjoy writing 1405 01:14:35,238 --> 01:14:37,805 but I can't get started 'cause I never have any ideas 1406 01:14:37,807 --> 01:14:39,674 about what I want to write about. 1407 01:14:39,676 --> 01:14:41,542 And since this came up, 1408 01:14:41,544 --> 01:14:43,611 it started me off, 1409 01:14:43,613 --> 01:14:46,781 realizing how many fascinating stories there are to be told 1410 01:14:46,783 --> 01:14:49,650 in one's own life, without... I meant to try to look for 1411 01:14:49,652 --> 01:14:51,152 what's an interesting story outside. 1412 01:14:52,554 --> 01:14:54,222 "I began to realize 1413 01:14:54,224 --> 01:14:57,792 "what a remarkable story she'd thrown into my lap. 1414 01:14:57,794 --> 01:15:01,896 "Gradually, I began to build up a picture of the whole thing. 1415 01:15:01,898 --> 01:15:05,766 "And so much of Diane's past and of my own actions 1416 01:15:05,768 --> 01:15:08,069 "appeared in a different light. 1417 01:15:08,071 --> 01:15:11,272 "The revelations had awoken an obsession in me 1418 01:15:11,274 --> 01:15:14,976 "to tell the whole story to anyone who would listen. 1419 01:15:14,978 --> 01:15:18,679 "My growing enthusiasm for the narrative itself, 1420 01:15:18,681 --> 01:15:22,116 "as well as the constant reevaluation of my own past, 1421 01:15:22,118 --> 01:15:25,119 "drove me around my room for two days. 1422 01:15:25,121 --> 01:15:28,923 "And then, on Saturday, I was finally able to send an email to Sarah 1423 01:15:28,925 --> 01:15:30,825 "with this summary of my thoughts. 1424 01:15:31,827 --> 01:15:33,928 "My dear, Sarah, 1425 01:15:33,930 --> 01:15:37,565 "my mind has been racing over the past 24 hours. 1426 01:15:37,567 --> 01:15:40,167 "Getting as many of my thoughts down on paper will, 1427 01:15:40,169 --> 01:15:43,938 "I hope, stop that feverish mental pursuit 1428 01:15:43,940 --> 01:15:47,074 "and put it all into what is my perspective. 1429 01:15:47,076 --> 01:15:48,776 "Whatever we do, 1430 01:15:48,778 --> 01:15:50,978 "we must not put any blame on Diane 1431 01:15:50,980 --> 01:15:55,650 "for those events that took place in 1978. 1432 01:15:55,652 --> 01:15:58,619 "We had been married, then, for over 10 years, 1433 01:15:58,621 --> 01:16:01,289 "and our union was not a perfect one. 1434 01:16:01,291 --> 01:16:05,293 "She had already experienced one major disaster in her life, 1435 01:16:05,295 --> 01:16:07,962 "with the breakdown of her first marriage, 1436 01:16:07,964 --> 01:16:12,066 "and the subsequent loss of the two children that she loved so much. 1437 01:16:12,068 --> 01:16:13,968 "And now, here she was, stuck with a husband 1438 01:16:13,970 --> 01:16:16,637 "who was useless at making her feel wanted, 1439 01:16:16,639 --> 01:16:20,041 "and so, when she went to Montreal to do Toronto, 1440 01:16:20,043 --> 01:16:22,877 "it's scarcely surprising that when love was expressed, 1441 01:16:22,879 --> 01:16:26,147 "and then offered to her, she took it. 1442 01:16:26,149 --> 01:16:28,282 "I'd always told her she should take a lover 1443 01:16:28,284 --> 01:16:30,785 "anytime she felt me inadequate, 1444 01:16:30,787 --> 01:16:34,889 "just as long as she did not think of leaving Mark and Jo, or me. 1445 01:16:34,891 --> 01:16:37,158 "Of course, she would never have left another two children, 1446 01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,061 "and I would never have disputed her claim for custody. 1447 01:16:40,063 --> 01:16:44,799 "So, it was clearly my own future that I was worried about. 1448 01:16:44,801 --> 01:16:46,968 "And so, we arrive at the affair with Harry, 1449 01:16:46,970 --> 01:16:50,271 "and, not unexpectedly, it took place at the same time as 1450 01:16:50,273 --> 01:16:53,874 "I made one or two visits to see her in Montreal. 1451 01:16:53,876 --> 01:16:56,077 "During those visits, I made love to her, 1452 01:16:56,079 --> 01:16:59,180 "and there was something of a renewal of the passion we felt 1453 01:16:59,182 --> 01:17:02,116 "when we first lived together. 1454 01:17:02,118 --> 01:17:05,219 "Diane must have been taken aback, I would guess. 1455 01:17:05,221 --> 01:17:08,756 "Harry must have proposed that they live together at some point, 1456 01:17:08,758 --> 01:17:11,692 "and she must have been torn between us, 1457 01:17:11,694 --> 01:17:15,262 "since I suddenly seem to be the old Michael 1458 01:17:15,264 --> 01:17:17,131 "that she once loved so much. 1459 01:17:18,634 --> 01:17:21,235 "Love is so short, 1460 01:17:21,237 --> 01:17:23,904 "forgetting, so long, 1461 01:17:23,906 --> 01:17:25,172 "Neruda wrote. 1462 01:17:30,879 --> 01:17:33,247 "Harry must have been very disappointed 1463 01:17:33,249 --> 01:17:35,983 "when she returned to Toronto. 1464 01:17:35,985 --> 01:17:38,352 "And I'm sorry for that. 1465 01:17:38,354 --> 01:17:40,821 "But return to Toronto she did, 1466 01:17:40,823 --> 01:17:42,323 "and the three of us 1467 01:17:42,325 --> 01:17:45,092 "were happy to have her with us again. 1468 01:17:45,094 --> 01:17:47,228 "And then came the discovery that she was pregnant. 1469 01:17:48,430 --> 01:17:50,965 "For me, it was joyful. 1470 01:17:50,967 --> 01:17:54,702 "For her, it must have been agonizing. 1471 01:17:54,704 --> 01:17:59,140 "Look, the terrible thing about all the mental anguish she underwent 1472 01:17:59,142 --> 01:18:00,741 "was that she never understood 1473 01:18:00,743 --> 01:18:02,209 "what my reaction would have been, 1474 01:18:02,211 --> 01:18:04,845 "if she'd told me the whole story. 1475 01:18:04,847 --> 01:18:07,381 "I do believe I would have told her not to worry, 1476 01:18:07,383 --> 01:18:09,283 "and that I was quite ready to accept 1477 01:18:09,285 --> 01:18:12,453 "the ambiguity of the parentage. 1478 01:18:12,455 --> 01:18:15,823 "But here, again, I had failed. 1479 01:18:15,825 --> 01:18:18,392 "Why is it that we talk and talk, 1480 01:18:18,394 --> 01:18:21,095 "or, at least, I certainly do, 1481 01:18:21,097 --> 01:18:23,931 "without somehow conveying what we're really like?" 1482 01:18:25,033 --> 01:18:26,300 (EXHALES) 1483 01:18:29,104 --> 01:18:31,706 SARAH: So, what compelled you, initially, to want to write 1484 01:18:31,708 --> 01:18:34,275 your version of the story? 1485 01:18:34,277 --> 01:18:37,912 Well, I was contemplating, I had been contemplating for some time, 1486 01:18:38,914 --> 01:18:41,148 writing a memoir. 1487 01:18:41,150 --> 01:18:44,118 I became persuaded that this was a strong story 1488 01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:46,253 which could be told in many different ways, 1489 01:18:46,255 --> 01:18:49,090 but which had a very, very strong structure 1490 01:18:49,092 --> 01:18:52,960 because it skipped a 30-year period and skipped a generation. 1491 01:18:52,962 --> 01:18:56,030 That it had a particular strength and a sense of continuity 1492 01:18:56,032 --> 01:18:57,965 with respect to memory of moving forward 1493 01:18:57,967 --> 01:19:00,101 from one situation to another. 1494 01:19:00,103 --> 01:19:03,738 That it was a story with great sadness and great joy. 1495 01:19:03,740 --> 01:19:07,775 And you suggested at one point when we met in Toronto 1496 01:19:07,777 --> 01:19:10,845 that we each write our version of it. 1497 01:19:10,847 --> 01:19:14,181 And then we would show it to each other at the end, and... 1498 01:19:14,183 --> 01:19:18,252 Might do something with it, but, like, it was sort of left pretty open-ended. 1499 01:19:18,254 --> 01:19:20,221 So, then, I subsequently did write 1500 01:19:20,223 --> 01:19:22,923 the six-page summary of the background 1501 01:19:22,925 --> 01:19:24,959 with Diane and us meeting. 1502 01:19:24,961 --> 01:19:28,829 MARIE: Harry had written a piece about his relationship with you and Diane, 1503 01:19:28,831 --> 01:19:31,966 and the discovery that you are father and daughter. 1504 01:19:31,968 --> 01:19:34,335 And someone suggested that he publish it. 1505 01:19:34,337 --> 01:19:37,404 HARRY: You reacted very, very strongly. Very, very strongly to it. 1506 01:19:37,406 --> 01:19:41,175 You were enraged, and you were very upset. 1507 01:19:41,177 --> 01:19:43,410 SARAH: "Hi, there, Harry. 1508 01:19:43,412 --> 01:19:44,979 "I suppose I'm confused as to why it's such a pressing issue for you 1509 01:19:44,981 --> 01:19:47,047 "that this story be public 1510 01:19:47,049 --> 01:19:48,149 "when it is already known by everyone we love 1511 01:19:48,151 --> 01:19:51,051 "and everyone who loves us. 1512 01:19:51,053 --> 01:19:53,921 "As I said, while my dad has had some time to deal with the news, 1513 01:19:53,923 --> 01:19:56,157 "he's not yet had to tell his friends or answer any questions 1514 01:19:56,159 --> 01:20:00,027 "from anyone outside of his immediate family. 1515 01:20:00,029 --> 01:20:02,263 "This space and privacy has been important for him, 1516 01:20:02,265 --> 01:20:04,465 "and I believe strongly in protecting that for as long as possible." 1517 01:20:04,467 --> 01:20:06,534 HARRY: In my case, it goes back to 1518 01:20:06,536 --> 01:20:12,840 during my relationship with Diane, which was open to her friends, 1519 01:20:12,842 --> 01:20:15,342 but, in fact, was utterly constrained 1520 01:20:15,344 --> 01:20:18,012 by the reality of her marital situation. 1521 01:20:18,014 --> 01:20:21,048 And I found that, at the time, oppressive. 1522 01:20:21,050 --> 01:20:23,450 I guess I have felt in this, sort of a bit of a... 1523 01:20:24,853 --> 01:20:26,120 An echo. 1524 01:20:26,122 --> 01:20:28,923 I felt constrained, 1525 01:20:28,925 --> 01:20:31,292 inhibited, and sort of pinched 1526 01:20:31,294 --> 01:20:33,594 in my relationship to you 1527 01:20:33,596 --> 01:20:37,164 because of the private way in which we were dealing with it. 1528 01:20:37,166 --> 01:20:38,399 The atmosphere got a little heavy there. 1529 01:20:39,602 --> 01:20:44,939 we were sort of building misunderstanding on top of misunderstanding, 1530 01:20:44,941 --> 01:20:48,375 and we both proved to be very, very capable in that respect. 1531 01:20:48,377 --> 01:20:51,946 I was upset that this thing had gotten up between us. 1532 01:20:51,948 --> 01:20:54,148 My taste or desire to do it at that point, 1533 01:20:54,150 --> 01:20:56,350 really, was no longer there. I mean... 1534 01:20:56,352 --> 01:20:59,887 This is not fun anymore. It's just creating problems. 1535 01:20:59,889 --> 01:21:04,091 So, eventually, I dropped it and I backed off. 1536 01:21:04,093 --> 01:21:07,461 SARAH: And what was it about having it published that attracted you? 1537 01:21:08,864 --> 01:21:10,264 Well, I think... 1538 01:21:10,266 --> 01:21:12,466 I think anyone who writes anything, 1539 01:21:12,468 --> 01:21:17,872 I mean, anyone who does anything, wants to bring it out to a public. 1540 01:21:17,874 --> 01:21:20,274 I mean, if there's a story to be told, 1541 01:21:20,276 --> 01:21:24,211 and if the story has some validity and some resonance, 1542 01:21:24,213 --> 01:21:26,513 then you don't keep it to yourself. 1543 01:21:28,083 --> 01:21:29,917 MARIE: There was the honeymoon period. 1544 01:21:29,919 --> 01:21:32,519 There was the difficult period, 1545 01:21:32,521 --> 01:21:36,357 when I would hear the tones of voices on the exchanges, 1546 01:21:36,359 --> 01:21:37,992 that there was tension. 1547 01:21:37,994 --> 01:21:39,994 So, this is in this perfect relationship, 1548 01:21:39,996 --> 01:21:41,929 the perfect papa, the perfect daughter. 1549 01:21:41,931 --> 01:21:43,230 Everything's perfect, then it's no longer perfect. 1550 01:21:44,232 --> 01:21:46,400 SARAH: "Hi, there, Harry. 1551 01:21:46,402 --> 01:21:48,235 "I'm just extremely uncomfortable at being involved 1552 01:21:48,237 --> 01:21:49,536 "in the telling of this story, 1553 01:21:49,538 --> 01:21:52,072 "unless it includes the whole picture. 1554 01:21:52,074 --> 01:21:55,509 "Which is to say, my experience of it, your experience of it, 1555 01:21:55,511 --> 01:21:57,411 "as well as my family's. 1556 01:22:15,463 --> 01:22:18,365 "I've been thinking a lot about your desire to tell this story, 1557 01:22:18,367 --> 01:22:21,201 "and my own desire to document this experience through film. 1558 01:22:22,270 --> 01:22:24,538 "As I begin this process, 1559 01:22:24,540 --> 01:22:27,942 "I don't know what from my project will take. 1560 01:22:27,944 --> 01:22:30,678 "I don't know if it's a personal record for myself 1561 01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:34,048 "or something to be made into a piece for others to see at some point. 1562 01:22:34,050 --> 01:22:35,516 "I don't know how long it would take 1563 01:22:35,518 --> 01:22:38,452 "or if it would ever get finished. 1564 01:22:38,454 --> 01:22:44,458 "beyond beginning to explore it through interviews with everyone involved, 1565 01:22:44,460 --> 01:22:46,360 "so that everyone's point of view, 1566 01:22:46,362 --> 01:22:50,364 "no matter how contradictory, is included. 1567 01:22:50,366 --> 01:22:54,401 "One day, it may turn into a documentary for others to consume. 1568 01:22:54,403 --> 01:22:56,570 "I'm really not sure when or if I'd want that to happen. 1569 01:22:58,173 --> 01:23:00,607 "But whatever it ended up being, 1570 01:23:00,609 --> 01:23:03,410 "it would feel very odd not to have you be a part of this." 1571 01:23:11,186 --> 01:23:13,354 When he considers this documentary, 1572 01:23:13,356 --> 01:23:15,456 being Harry, being a producer, 1573 01:23:15,458 --> 01:23:18,759 I'm sure there's a little bit of trepidation about this film, 1574 01:23:18,761 --> 01:23:21,095 because he doesn't have control of everything. 1575 01:23:21,097 --> 01:23:23,364 He understand that. He doesn't like it. 1576 01:23:23,366 --> 01:23:27,001 It's been very clear to him that this story will be told from 1577 01:23:27,003 --> 01:23:30,104 the point of view of everyone who is alive who can talk about it. 1578 01:23:30,106 --> 01:23:32,239 And, you know, my dad would really like it 1579 01:23:32,241 --> 01:23:35,109 just to be about his story of meeting Diane and being with her, 1580 01:23:35,111 --> 01:23:37,511 and having you, and meeting you again. 1581 01:23:37,513 --> 01:23:41,081 But he's gone along with it. He's trying to be a good sport. 1582 01:23:41,083 --> 01:23:44,685 SARAH: So, what do you think of the concept of me making this documentary 1583 01:23:44,687 --> 01:23:49,156 where we're sort of giving equal weight to everyone's version of the story? 1584 01:23:49,158 --> 01:23:51,258 I don't like it. 1585 01:23:51,260 --> 01:23:53,127 (STUTTERING) I think that 1586 01:23:54,329 --> 01:23:55,562 takes us into a... 1587 01:23:56,765 --> 01:23:59,066 Into a very wooly... 1588 01:23:59,068 --> 01:24:02,669 Like, you see, you can't ever touch bottom with anything, then. 1589 01:24:02,671 --> 01:24:05,272 We're all over the place. 1590 01:24:05,274 --> 01:24:07,174 I think they can all be heard. 1591 01:24:07,176 --> 01:24:10,477 It's giving them equal weight, which I find... 1592 01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:13,547 Particularly those who are non-players. 1593 01:24:13,549 --> 01:24:17,317 First of all, there are the parties to an incident. 1594 01:24:17,319 --> 01:24:20,754 Those who were there and who were directly affected by it. 1595 01:24:20,756 --> 01:24:23,257 Then, there is a circle around that, 1596 01:24:23,259 --> 01:24:26,093 of people who are affected tangentially 1597 01:24:26,095 --> 01:24:29,430 because of their relationship to the principal parties. 1598 01:24:29,432 --> 01:24:32,833 And then, there's another concentric circle, further out there, 1599 01:24:32,835 --> 01:24:34,835 which, basically, has heard or been told 1600 01:24:34,837 --> 01:24:37,137 by one of the principal players about it. 1601 01:24:37,139 --> 01:24:40,274 All of these may have different narratives 1602 01:24:40,276 --> 01:24:42,443 and these narratives 1603 01:24:42,445 --> 01:24:44,645 are shaped in part by their relationship 1604 01:24:44,647 --> 01:24:47,714 to the person who told it to them, and by the events. 1605 01:24:47,716 --> 01:24:49,683 One does not get the truth 1606 01:24:49,685 --> 01:24:52,286 simply by hearing what their reactions are. 1607 01:24:52,288 --> 01:24:54,521 People tend to declare themselves 1608 01:24:54,523 --> 01:24:56,757 in terms of what they saw, in terms of what they felt. 1609 01:24:56,759 --> 01:24:58,625 In terms of what they remembered, 1610 01:24:58,627 --> 01:25:00,594 and in terms of their loyalties. 1611 01:25:00,596 --> 01:25:03,297 The same set of circumstances 1612 01:25:03,299 --> 01:25:06,433 will affect different people in different ways. 1613 01:25:06,435 --> 01:25:08,402 Not that there are different truths, 1614 01:25:08,404 --> 01:25:11,205 there are different reactions to particular events. 1615 01:25:13,141 --> 01:25:15,442 The crucial function of art is to tell the truth. 1616 01:25:15,444 --> 01:25:18,278 To find the truth in a situation. That's what it's about. 1617 01:25:21,583 --> 01:25:24,718 You realize, when you've finished all this... 1618 01:25:27,856 --> 01:25:31,158 You realize, when you've finished all this, 1619 01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:35,529 you've got about six hours of stuff. 1620 01:25:35,531 --> 01:25:39,266 And you'll decide what you want out of it. 1621 01:25:39,268 --> 01:25:41,235 It'll be exactly like the story. 1622 01:25:41,237 --> 01:25:43,804 Each one of us will pick out... 1623 01:25:43,806 --> 01:25:46,140 If any one of us were trying to edit it 1624 01:25:46,142 --> 01:25:49,309 and decide what we wanted to keep, 1625 01:25:49,311 --> 01:25:54,781 it would be the same farcical kind of theatrical exercise that we're all involved in. 1626 01:25:54,783 --> 01:25:56,550 "Oh, I want to keep that." 1627 01:25:56,552 --> 01:25:58,385 "Oh, no, that's rubbish, there." 1628 01:25:58,387 --> 01:26:00,821 That's an enormously different thing 1629 01:26:00,823 --> 01:26:03,590 from simply doing an interview straight 1630 01:26:03,592 --> 01:26:06,693 and never doing any editing of it whatsoever, 1631 01:26:06,695 --> 01:26:08,529 but letting it run as it is. 1632 01:26:08,531 --> 01:26:12,699 That would have been at least as close to truth as you can get, 1633 01:26:12,701 --> 01:26:15,335 whereas your editing of this 1634 01:26:15,337 --> 01:26:18,672 will turn this into something completely different. 1635 01:26:18,674 --> 01:26:20,807 What would you say, this documentary is really about? 1636 01:26:22,377 --> 01:26:23,744 SARAH: Um... 1637 01:26:23,746 --> 01:26:25,546 Am I breaking the fourth wall here? (LAUGHING) 1638 01:26:25,548 --> 01:26:27,548 Turn the camera around. (LAUGHS) 1639 01:26:27,550 --> 01:26:29,349 Um... 1640 01:26:29,351 --> 01:26:31,218 What is it about? 1641 01:26:31,220 --> 01:26:33,921 I feel like it's about a lot of things. I think, um... 1642 01:26:33,923 --> 01:26:37,191 Memory, you said. Memory, and the way 1643 01:26:37,193 --> 01:26:38,525 we tell the stories of our lives. 1644 01:26:38,527 --> 01:26:40,394 I think, in many ways, it's like, 1645 01:26:40,396 --> 01:26:43,797 you know, trying to bring someone to life 1646 01:26:43,799 --> 01:26:46,200 through people's stories of them. 1647 01:26:46,202 --> 01:26:47,601 It's also... Is this a good angle for me? 1648 01:26:47,603 --> 01:26:49,403 (BOTH LAUGHING) 1649 01:26:49,405 --> 01:26:51,371 Sorry. Go on. 1650 01:26:51,373 --> 01:26:53,540 (CHUCKLING) Telling people what? 1651 01:26:53,542 --> 01:26:54,675 Asshole. (BOTH LAUGHING) 1652 01:26:55,877 --> 01:26:57,578 SARAH: "Hi, Harry. 1653 01:26:57,580 --> 01:26:58,879 "One of the main focuses in the documentary are 1654 01:26:58,881 --> 01:27:00,948 "the discrepancies in the stories. 1655 01:27:00,950 --> 01:27:03,750 "All of us. You, me, my dad, 1656 01:27:03,752 --> 01:27:06,753 "my siblings, my mother's friends, etcetera, 1657 01:27:06,755 --> 01:27:10,290 "have similar stories with large and small details that vary. 1658 01:27:10,292 --> 01:27:13,260 "I'm interested in the way we tell stories about our lives. 1659 01:27:13,262 --> 01:27:15,329 "About the fact that the truth about the past 1660 01:27:15,331 --> 01:27:17,798 "is often ephemeral and difficult to pin down. 1661 01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:21,435 "when we don't take proper time to do research about our pasts, 1662 01:27:21,437 --> 01:27:24,304 "which is almost always the case, 1663 01:27:24,306 --> 01:27:28,642 "end up with shifts and fictions in them, mostly unintended." 1664 01:27:28,644 --> 01:27:30,544 JOANNA: In relation to Mum, 1665 01:27:30,546 --> 01:27:33,413 I think, when we talk about it as a family, 1666 01:27:33,415 --> 01:27:36,283 there seems to be this, you know, this kind of... 1667 01:27:36,285 --> 01:27:38,285 A lot of questions about who was she. 1668 01:27:38,287 --> 01:27:39,953 You know, a lot of disagreement about 1669 01:27:39,955 --> 01:27:44,491 And there was this misconception that she was something, 1670 01:27:44,493 --> 01:27:47,628 and I guess that to me is another misconception, 1671 01:27:47,630 --> 01:27:50,030 that there is a state of affairs 1672 01:27:50,032 --> 01:27:52,466 or things that actually happened, 1673 01:27:52,468 --> 01:27:55,602 and we have to kind of reconstruct exactly what happened in the past. 1674 01:27:55,604 --> 01:27:58,739 And I don't think there ever was a "what actually happened." 1675 01:27:58,741 --> 01:28:01,308 I think there were lots of perspectives from the very beginning. 1676 01:28:01,310 --> 01:28:02,976 You don't ever get to an answer. 1677 01:28:02,978 --> 01:28:05,412 You don't ever get to, "Okay, now we've figured it out. 1678 01:28:05,414 --> 01:28:07,047 "We know exactly what happened. 1679 01:28:07,049 --> 01:28:09,583 "We know exactly what kind of person she was." 1680 01:28:09,585 --> 01:28:12,986 I think those things are just illusory. 1681 01:28:12,988 --> 01:28:15,289 Again, in terms of the basic question, 1682 01:28:15,291 --> 01:28:16,890 "Can one get at the truth?" 1683 01:28:19,060 --> 01:28:21,862 I guess we're getting very close to it. 1684 01:28:21,864 --> 01:28:25,799 But you have to limit it to those who are involved in the events, 1685 01:28:25,801 --> 01:28:31,371 And the direct witnesses to the events are only two, 1686 01:28:31,373 --> 01:28:32,773 and one is not around. 1687 01:28:34,842 --> 01:28:36,910 I mean, Diane's not here to talk to, you know? 1688 01:28:36,912 --> 01:28:39,546 That's really the only person who could provide, 1689 01:28:39,548 --> 01:28:42,883 I mean, the essence, the essentials, of what took place. 1690 01:28:44,852 --> 01:28:47,020 So, we've been through all that debate, 1691 01:28:47,022 --> 01:28:50,490 and then we started here, yesterday. 1692 01:28:50,492 --> 01:28:53,727 I somehow feel that we've cleared up some of the smoke. 1693 01:28:53,729 --> 01:28:57,898 Maybe not all, but some of the smoke has been cleared away. 1694 01:28:57,900 --> 01:29:00,100 But the reality is, essentially, 1695 01:29:00,102 --> 01:29:02,803 that the story with Diane, I regret to say, 1696 01:29:04,005 --> 01:29:05,706 is only mine to tell. 1697 01:29:07,542 --> 01:29:08,809 And I think that's a fact. 1698 01:29:10,445 --> 01:29:13,780 Uh... 1699 01:29:13,782 --> 01:29:17,951 Now, my recollections may be faulty at times, but I'm not going to lie. 1700 01:29:20,588 --> 01:29:23,523 The love that I shared with Diane, 30 years ago, 1701 01:29:23,525 --> 01:29:26,927 was so intense and so lasting, 1702 01:29:26,929 --> 01:29:30,464 it all came back to me and got wrapped up with my affection for you. 1703 01:29:35,670 --> 01:29:38,505 So, you know, I became crazy about you in the same way. 1704 01:30:01,796 --> 01:30:03,730 (MELANCHOLY PIANO TUNE PLAYING) 1705 01:30:21,716 --> 01:30:23,950 JOANNA: When I heard the full details of the affair 1706 01:30:23,952 --> 01:30:27,454 between Mum and Harry, I was really happy 1707 01:30:27,456 --> 01:30:29,456 because I've always felt 1708 01:30:29,458 --> 01:30:32,726 like she spent her whole life looking for love, 1709 01:30:32,728 --> 01:30:37,497 and I certainly felt that, in the last years of her life, 1710 01:30:37,499 --> 01:30:40,600 and for a long time, ever since I was a child, 1711 01:30:40,602 --> 01:30:43,470 she really hadn't gotten from Dad what she needed. 1712 01:30:43,472 --> 01:30:46,173 And when I heard the story of Harry, 1713 01:30:48,176 --> 01:30:51,111 (VOICE BREAKING) I remember feeling... 1714 01:30:51,113 --> 01:30:55,816 Feeling really happy that she had found love. 1715 01:30:55,818 --> 01:30:57,818 And that she'd been loved that much. 1716 01:31:07,962 --> 01:31:12,632 But, you know, I kind of think Dad was the one she really was in love with. 1717 01:31:12,634 --> 01:31:15,702 And he just wasn't an option. (CHUCKLES) 1718 01:31:15,704 --> 01:31:18,038 So, I'm really glad that she was loved. 1719 01:31:18,040 --> 01:31:20,173 I'm not sure she was loved by the person 1720 01:31:20,175 --> 01:31:22,809 she really wanted to be loved by, but... 1721 01:31:24,545 --> 01:31:25,912 Yeah. 1722 01:31:25,914 --> 01:31:27,681 (PIANO TUNE CONTINUES) 1723 01:31:48,170 --> 01:31:54,708 "when you make a documentary about your own discovery of a new father, 1724 01:31:54,710 --> 01:32:01,147 "are you doing so to avoid your own deeper concerns of its real impact on you? 1725 01:32:01,149 --> 01:32:02,782 "Is that why you describe it as, 1726 01:32:02,784 --> 01:32:05,719 "'A search for the vagaries of truth 1727 01:32:05,721 --> 01:32:07,988 "'and the unreliability of memory' 1728 01:32:07,990 --> 01:32:10,023 "rather than, 'A search for a father'?" 1729 01:32:12,693 --> 01:32:14,761 SARAH: "Hey, Dad. 1730 01:32:14,763 --> 01:32:16,630 "I've been thinking a lot about your last email. 1731 01:32:17,832 --> 01:32:20,200 "Maybe you're right. 1732 01:32:20,202 --> 01:32:22,002 "Maybe there is something underneath my need to make this film 1733 01:32:22,004 --> 01:32:23,236 "that I've been denying. 1734 01:32:25,006 --> 01:32:28,708 "Every time I feel I have my footing, I lose it. 1735 01:32:28,710 --> 01:32:32,212 "I can't figure out why I'm exposing us all in this way. 1736 01:32:32,214 --> 01:32:36,082 "It's really embarrassing, to be honest. 1737 01:32:36,084 --> 01:32:38,585 "Have I totally lost my mind trying to reconstruct the past 1738 01:32:38,587 --> 01:32:39,319 "from other people's words, 1739 01:32:41,589 --> 01:32:44,624 "trying to form her? 1740 01:32:44,626 --> 01:32:47,327 "Is this the tsunami she unleashed when she went? 1741 01:32:47,329 --> 01:32:50,597 "And all of us, still flailing in her wake, 1742 01:32:50,599 --> 01:32:53,033 "trying to put her together in the wreckage, 1743 01:32:53,035 --> 01:32:55,035 "and her, slipping away from us, 1744 01:32:55,037 --> 01:32:57,103 "over and over again, 1745 01:32:57,105 --> 01:32:58,972 "just as we begin to see her face?" 1746 01:33:03,678 --> 01:33:05,979 SARAH: What do you remember of the day Mom died? 1747 01:33:10,985 --> 01:33:12,185 (SIGHS) Ah... 1748 01:33:14,322 --> 01:33:16,022 That was a terrible day, wasn't it? 1749 01:33:18,259 --> 01:33:20,894 I don't know. I guess... 1750 01:33:20,896 --> 01:33:23,196 I guess, her brother had said to us, 1751 01:33:23,198 --> 01:33:25,231 "Well, it's almost the end now. 1752 01:33:26,367 --> 01:33:27,901 (SIGHS) 1753 01:33:29,670 --> 01:33:31,638 "I think each one of you should go..." 1754 01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:33,340 I mean, she was unconscious. 1755 01:33:34,976 --> 01:33:36,376 "...and say whatever... 1756 01:33:40,114 --> 01:33:44,117 "Whatever final words you have to say to her, uh, before she goes. 1757 01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:47,854 "Because it's very close to the end." 1758 01:33:47,856 --> 01:33:49,089 Um... 1759 01:33:51,025 --> 01:33:52,626 That was a bad day. 1760 01:34:01,736 --> 01:34:03,903 SARAH: What did you say to her? MICHAEL: What? 1761 01:34:03,905 --> 01:34:05,872 SARAH: With that time that we each had alone with her, 1762 01:34:05,874 --> 01:34:07,407 what did you say to her? 1763 01:34:17,318 --> 01:34:19,352 I don't know. 1764 01:34:19,354 --> 01:34:20,920 Probably that I'd missed her. 1765 01:34:20,922 --> 01:34:23,089 That I would miss her. 1766 01:34:23,091 --> 01:34:24,824 That I loved her, and I ... 1767 01:34:26,027 --> 01:34:27,260 Would never forget her. 1768 01:34:28,262 --> 01:34:29,329 That's about all. 1769 01:34:30,731 --> 01:34:31,097 (EXHALES) 1770 01:34:35,403 --> 01:34:37,203 (SLOW FOLK SONG PLAYING) 1771 01:35:08,102 --> 01:35:11,805 You know, somebody you've known for 25 years 1772 01:35:14,375 --> 01:35:18,044 and spent much of your life with for 25 years 1773 01:35:18,046 --> 01:35:22,749 and has given your life much of its meaning for 25 years... 1774 01:35:22,751 --> 01:35:24,284 Awful hard to lose them. 1775 01:35:28,989 --> 01:35:30,790 (SONG CONTINUES PLAYING) 1776 01:36:34,288 --> 01:36:36,256 It's, uh... 1777 01:36:36,258 --> 01:36:38,925 It's a dire line of questioning, just try to... 1778 01:36:38,927 --> 01:36:42,195 We must find a way of making it more funny. 1779 01:36:42,197 --> 01:36:43,863 (CHUCKLING) 1780 01:36:45,933 --> 01:36:49,536 What are you, some kind of sadistic interviewer? (CHUCKLES) 1781 01:36:52,039 --> 01:36:53,940 SARAH: You told me I had to break you down more. 1782 01:36:53,942 --> 01:36:56,276 Yeah. Well, you've done it, haven't you? (CHUCKLES) 1783 01:36:56,278 --> 01:36:58,311 There was no acting in any of that. 1784 01:37:02,550 --> 01:37:03,983 No acting at all. 1785 01:37:03,985 --> 01:37:05,985 You see what a vicious director you are? 1786 01:37:07,188 --> 01:37:08,822 Now you understand, don't you? 1787 01:37:08,824 --> 01:37:10,390 I remember that... (CHUCKLES) 1788 01:37:10,392 --> 01:37:12,492 Remember that day when you directed me 1789 01:37:12,494 --> 01:37:15,495 in a ridiculous montage piece 1790 01:37:15,497 --> 01:37:17,263 that you were doing when you were at the film center, 1791 01:37:17,265 --> 01:37:19,966 and you made me walk down into a pool 1792 01:37:19,968 --> 01:37:23,870 of freezing cold water wearing full clothes? (CHUCKLES) 1793 01:37:23,872 --> 01:37:26,573 "Keep going further down, Dad!" 1794 01:37:26,575 --> 01:37:30,443 I said, "I can't go any further down! My clothes are holding me up." 1795 01:37:30,445 --> 01:37:33,112 "Just keep going down! 1796 01:37:33,114 --> 01:37:34,480 "God, you are so annoying. 1797 01:37:34,482 --> 01:37:36,316 "It's a very little thing to ask of you. 1798 01:37:36,318 --> 01:37:39,152 "All I want you to do is go a foot under the water. 1799 01:37:39,154 --> 01:37:41,321 "Here I am, trying to do a montage, 1800 01:37:41,323 --> 01:37:44,457 "and my father is causing trouble." 1801 01:37:44,459 --> 01:37:46,459 A brutal piece of directing. 1802 01:37:47,862 --> 01:37:49,329 Why? 1803 01:37:49,331 --> 01:37:50,430 (CHUCKLES) 1804 01:37:54,969 --> 01:37:57,370 And in some ways, that's... You know, that's why this 1805 01:37:58,639 --> 01:38:00,540 whole question of, uh, 1806 01:38:02,509 --> 01:38:05,211 "Oh, was I your father or wasn't I?" 1807 01:38:06,213 --> 01:38:07,480 It's, uh... 1808 01:38:10,084 --> 01:38:12,185 Becomes very, sort of 1809 01:38:12,187 --> 01:38:16,189 an unimportant part of the past, for me, anyway, you know? 1810 01:38:16,191 --> 01:38:18,391 I mean, I think it's much more important for you. 1811 01:38:18,393 --> 01:38:21,427 that happens along with life. 1812 01:38:24,431 --> 01:38:26,366 "So, don't feel sorry for me. 1813 01:38:26,368 --> 01:38:29,969 "If you have pity, it should be for Harry, who loved and lost Diane, 1814 01:38:29,971 --> 01:38:33,940 "and then missed out on the childhood of that Sarah he'd produced. 1815 01:38:33,942 --> 01:38:36,442 "Had that been my lot, I would have been mortified 1816 01:38:36,444 --> 01:38:38,678 "when I read that DNA result. 1817 01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:41,381 "I've been a very lucky man, and of course, 1818 01:38:41,383 --> 01:38:43,616 "for one of my luckiest moments, 1819 01:38:43,618 --> 01:38:46,052 "I have to thank Harry Gulkin 1820 01:38:46,054 --> 01:38:48,354 "for loving Diane. 1821 01:38:48,356 --> 01:38:51,124 "Sarah is only what she is 1822 01:38:51,126 --> 01:38:54,460 "because of that night of love between Diane and Harry. 1823 01:38:54,462 --> 01:38:57,063 "Had I been her biological father, 1824 01:38:57,065 --> 01:38:59,232 "she would have been entirely different. 1825 01:38:59,234 --> 01:39:01,701 "She might have been better or worse, 1826 01:39:01,703 --> 01:39:06,472 "but she would definitely not have been the Sarah she is today. 1827 01:39:06,474 --> 01:39:08,408 "And that's the one I love. 1828 01:39:08,410 --> 01:39:11,978 "Of the other possible outcome, there is nothing. 1829 01:39:11,980 --> 01:39:14,180 "You may decide you want to keep this letter to yourself 1830 01:39:14,182 --> 01:39:15,648 "or to share it. 1831 01:39:15,650 --> 01:39:17,417 "It's yours, and yours the choice. 1832 01:39:18,619 --> 01:39:21,354 "You know... Look...'" 1833 01:39:21,356 --> 01:39:24,157 Dad, can you just go back over that one line? 1834 01:39:24,159 --> 01:39:25,692 I was being so real. 1835 01:39:25,694 --> 01:39:27,694 (CHUCKLES) 1836 01:39:27,696 --> 01:39:30,229 I completely convinced myself. 1837 01:39:32,433 --> 01:39:34,100 "You may decide, you want to keep this 1838 01:39:34,102 --> 01:39:36,269 "letter to yourself or to share it. 1839 01:39:36,271 --> 01:39:38,571 "It's yours, and yours the choice. 1840 01:39:39,573 --> 01:39:42,475 "You know... Look... 1841 01:39:42,477 --> 01:39:46,079 "While telling me your news on Thursday, you twice hugged me 1842 01:39:46,081 --> 01:39:48,448 "as hard as you ever did in your childhood. 1843 01:39:49,650 --> 01:39:51,684 "That alone 1844 01:39:51,686 --> 01:39:54,520 "made your revelation worth a thousand words. 1845 01:39:55,522 --> 01:39:57,757 "So, there you have it. 1846 01:39:57,759 --> 01:40:00,026 "All I know of what happened 1847 01:40:00,028 --> 01:40:03,129 "or what has been reported to me has been told. 1848 01:40:03,131 --> 01:40:05,231 "I think I wrote this story 1849 01:40:05,233 --> 01:40:07,300 "because it really says so many interesting things 1850 01:40:07,302 --> 01:40:09,268 "about the human condition. 1851 01:40:09,270 --> 01:40:12,105 "But maybe there was another reason. 1852 01:40:12,107 --> 01:40:15,375 "Perhaps, deep inside, I have suffered more of a shock 1853 01:40:15,377 --> 01:40:17,243 "than I would openly admit. 1854 01:40:17,245 --> 01:40:20,313 "I sometimes stop and realize 1855 01:40:20,315 --> 01:40:25,318 "that something inside has, for the rest of my life, changed. 1856 01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:28,755 "A certain cord that runs between Sarah and me 1857 01:40:28,757 --> 01:40:30,356 "has been severed, 1858 01:40:30,358 --> 01:40:33,192 "and I'm powerless to join it together. 1859 01:40:33,194 --> 01:40:35,661 "It's not a real thing. 1860 01:40:35,663 --> 01:40:40,433 "It only exists because we have developed this facet called imagination 1861 01:40:40,435 --> 01:40:45,038 "and that is all too real and tangible. It gives pain. 1862 01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:47,607 "It's brief, and soon I am back again at the keyboard, 1863 01:40:47,609 --> 01:40:50,343 "reliving the past 40 years, 1864 01:40:50,345 --> 01:40:54,113 "but I suppose it will always be lurking to catch me unawares. 1865 01:40:54,115 --> 01:40:56,649 "So, perhaps this story is a form of denial. 1866 01:40:58,419 --> 01:40:59,786 "How ironic it is 1867 01:40:59,788 --> 01:41:03,189 "that the final revelation of this aftermath 1868 01:41:03,191 --> 01:41:05,825 "have brought Sarah and I closer together 1869 01:41:07,661 --> 01:41:10,663 "and resulted in me writing volumes, 1870 01:41:10,665 --> 01:41:13,466 "as Diane always wanted me to. 1871 01:41:13,468 --> 01:41:16,536 "It has given me a new lease on life. 1872 01:41:23,210 --> 01:41:26,079 "At 5:26 this morning, a little girl was born 1873 01:41:26,081 --> 01:41:28,848 "to Jennifer, my son's wife. 1874 01:41:28,850 --> 01:41:31,150 "It's almost three quarters of a century 1875 01:41:31,152 --> 01:41:33,853 "since I was pulled out into the air of Ilford, 1876 01:41:33,855 --> 01:41:39,225 "and now this small girl is starting to learn about life in Toronto. 1877 01:41:39,227 --> 01:41:41,327 "One thing is certain, 1878 01:41:41,329 --> 01:41:43,663 "her life will be radically different from mine. 1879 01:41:43,665 --> 01:41:46,232 "So different that we might as well be 1880 01:41:46,234 --> 01:41:49,168 "born on planets light-years apart. 1881 01:41:49,170 --> 01:41:53,172 "I think she'll be interested to read of her grandfather's life, 1882 01:41:53,174 --> 01:41:55,274 "set down in way that 1883 01:41:55,276 --> 01:41:56,809 "makes it very unlike the stuff of history books. 1884 01:41:58,213 --> 01:42:03,282 "And now, there's a fly buzzing around me as I write. 1885 01:42:03,284 --> 01:42:05,885 "It'll buzz around for a short time looking for food, 1886 01:42:05,887 --> 01:42:08,421 "and, once sustained, may seek a mate. 1887 01:42:09,423 --> 01:42:10,756 "It will never know why. 1888 01:42:11,892 --> 01:42:14,494 "It has simply been sentenced 1889 01:42:14,496 --> 01:42:18,364 "to follow the demands of millions of ancestors. 1890 01:42:18,366 --> 01:42:21,501 "For that fly, the word 'why' does not exist. 1891 01:42:22,503 --> 01:42:24,804 "Yes, that's it, Michael. 1892 01:42:24,806 --> 01:42:26,706 "Just accept the sentence. 1893 01:42:28,642 --> 01:42:30,176 "I will go on. 1894 01:42:31,678 --> 01:42:33,913 "I will go on." 1895 01:42:33,915 --> 01:42:35,348 (MELANCHOLY PIANO TUNE PLAYING) 1896 01:42:48,495 --> 01:42:50,229 (JAZZY PIANO TUNE PLAYING) 1897 01:43:03,377 --> 01:43:05,845 SARAH: I'm just so curious about, like, 1898 01:43:05,847 --> 01:43:07,780 all the versions of this story 1899 01:43:07,782 --> 01:43:10,850 that have been in existence since I was, like, 13, 1900 01:43:10,852 --> 01:43:13,920 and my sister first told me as a joke, 1901 01:43:13,922 --> 01:43:16,589 you know, "Your dad's probably not your real dad." 1902 01:43:16,591 --> 01:43:19,659 And then, when I was 18, like, hearing your name all the time, 1903 01:43:19,661 --> 01:43:21,327 and then finding Harry, 1904 01:43:21,329 --> 01:43:23,796 and then, you know, it being proved by a DNA test. 1905 01:43:23,798 --> 01:43:26,899 Yeah. So, it's just weird that now when I interview people, 1906 01:43:26,901 --> 01:43:29,869 like, a couple of her close friends 1907 01:43:29,871 --> 01:43:31,737 were shocked that Harry was my dad, 1908 01:43:31,739 --> 01:43:33,839 because they always thought you were my dad. 1909 01:43:36,543 --> 01:43:37,810 Um... 1910 01:43:39,279 --> 01:43:42,615 Well, okay then, I'll... I'll have to, uh... 1911 01:43:42,617 --> 01:43:44,817 I'll have to tell you that we did sleep together once. 1912 01:43:46,220 --> 01:43:47,253 (TUNE CONTINUES PLAYING)