1 00:00:20,154 --> 00:00:22,240 Is this chart at a reasonable height for you? 2 00:00:23,282 --> 00:00:24,325 Or do you want it lowered? 3 00:00:25,368 --> 00:00:27,453 - Fine. - All right. 4 00:00:29,539 --> 00:00:30,540 Earlier tonight... 5 00:00:30,581 --> 00:00:33,709 Let me first ask the TV. Are you ready? 6 00:00:33,751 --> 00:00:34,752 All set? 7 00:02:45,007 --> 00:02:47,093 Let me hear your voice level, so it's the same. 8 00:02:47,135 --> 00:02:49,178 - How's my voice level? - That's fine. 9 00:02:49,220 --> 00:02:50,221 Terrific. 10 00:02:51,264 --> 00:02:54,350 Now, I remember exactly the sentence I left off on. 11 00:02:54,392 --> 00:02:57,520 I remember how it started, and I was cut off in the middle. 12 00:02:58,563 --> 00:02:59,564 You can fix it up. 13 00:02:59,605 --> 00:03:03,776 I don't want to go back, because I know exactly what I wanted to say. 14 00:03:03,818 --> 00:03:04,819 - Go ahead! - Okay. 15 00:03:05,862 --> 00:03:10,032 Any military commander who is honest with himself... 16 00:03:10,074 --> 00:03:12,118 ...or with those he's speaking to will admit... 17 00:03:13,161 --> 00:03:16,289 ...that he has made mistakes in the application of military power. 18 00:03:17,331 --> 00:03:19,917 He's killed people, unnecessarily. 19 00:03:19,959 --> 00:03:22,503 His own troops or other troops. 20 00:03:22,545 --> 00:03:25,631 Through mistakes, through errors of judgment. 21 00:03:25,673 --> 00:03:29,802 A hundred, or thousands, or tens of thousands, maybe even 100,000. 22 00:03:29,844 --> 00:03:33,973 But he hasn't destroyed nations. And the conventional wisdom is... 23 00:03:35,016 --> 00:03:38,144 ...don't make the same mistake twice. Learn from your mistakes. 24 00:03:38,186 --> 00:03:41,272 And we all do. Maybe we make the same mistake three times... 25 00:03:41,314 --> 00:03:43,316 ...but hopefully not four or five. 26 00:03:43,357 --> 00:03:45,943 There'll be no learning period with nuclear weapons. 27 00:03:45,985 --> 00:03:48,571 Make one mistake and you're gonna destroy nations. 28 00:03:57,955 --> 00:04:02,126 In my life, I've been part of wars. 29 00:04:05,254 --> 00:04:09,425 Three years in the U.S. Army during World War II. 30 00:04:12,553 --> 00:04:15,681 Seven years as secretary of defense during the Vietnam War. 31 00:04:19,852 --> 00:04:22,980 Thirteen years at the World Bank. Across the world. 32 00:04:25,066 --> 00:04:27,109 At my age, 85... 33 00:04:27,151 --> 00:04:30,238 ...I'm at an age where I can look back... 34 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,450 ...and derive some conclusions about my actions. 35 00:04:38,621 --> 00:04:42,250 My rule has been, "try to learn. " 36 00:04:42,291 --> 00:04:45,920 Try to understand what happened. 37 00:04:48,005 --> 00:04:51,134 Develop the lessons and pass them on. 38 00:05:07,775 --> 00:05:10,903 This is the secretary of defense of the United States, Robert McNamara. 39 00:05:11,946 --> 00:05:15,074 His department absorbs 10 percent of the income of this country... 40 00:05:15,116 --> 00:05:17,118 ...and over half of every tax dollar. 41 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,246 His job has been called the toughest in Washington... 42 00:05:20,288 --> 00:05:24,458 ...and he is the most controversial figure that has ever held the job. 43 00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:27,545 Walter Lippmann calls him both the best secretary of defense... 44 00:05:27,587 --> 00:05:31,757 ...and the first one to ever assert civilian control over the military. 45 00:05:31,799 --> 00:05:35,928 His critics call him a "con man," "an IBM machine with legs"... 46 00:05:35,970 --> 00:05:38,014 ..."an arrogant dictator. " 47 00:06:18,638 --> 00:06:21,724 Mr. Secretary, I've noticed in several cabinet offices... 48 00:06:21,766 --> 00:06:26,979 ...that little silver calendar thing there. Can you explain that? 49 00:06:27,021 --> 00:06:31,150 Yes, this was given by President Kennedy. 50 00:06:35,321 --> 00:06:38,449 ...17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23... 51 00:06:39,492 --> 00:06:43,621 ...24, 25, 26, 27, and finally 28, were the dates... 52 00:06:43,663 --> 00:06:47,834 ...when we literally look ed down the gun barrel into nuclear war. 53 00:07:32,670 --> 00:07:34,755 Under a cloak of deceit... 54 00:07:35,798 --> 00:07:39,927 ...the Soviet Union introduced nuclear missiles... 55 00:07:40,970 --> 00:07:43,055 ...into Cuba... 56 00:07:44,098 --> 00:07:46,184 ...targeting 90 million Americans. 57 00:07:57,653 --> 00:08:00,781 The CIA said the warheads had not been delivered yet. 58 00:08:02,867 --> 00:08:05,995 They thought 20 were coming on a ship named the Poltava. 59 00:08:12,251 --> 00:08:16,380 We mobilized 180,000 troops. 60 00:08:16,422 --> 00:08:19,550 The first day's air attack was planned at 1080 sorties... 61 00:08:19,592 --> 00:08:22,678 ...a huge air attack. 62 00:09:21,028 --> 00:09:23,114 Kennedy was trying to keep us out of war. 63 00:09:23,156 --> 00:09:25,199 I was trying to help him keep us out of war. 64 00:09:26,242 --> 00:09:28,327 And General Curtis LeMay, whom I served under... 65 00:09:29,370 --> 00:09:32,498 ...as a matter of fact, in World War II, was saying: 66 00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:36,669 " Let's go in. Let's totally destroy Cuba. " 67 00:09:57,523 --> 00:10:00,610 On that critical Saturday, October 27th... 68 00:10:00,651 --> 00:10:04,822 ...we had two Khrushchev messages in front of us. 69 00:10:05,865 --> 00:10:10,036 One had come in Friday night, and it had been dictated... 70 00:10:10,077 --> 00:10:14,207 ...by a man who was either drunk, or under tremendous stress. 71 00:10:15,249 --> 00:10:19,420 Basically, he said, " If you'll guarantee you won't invade Cuba... 72 00:10:19,462 --> 00:10:21,464 ...we'll take the missiles out. " 73 00:10:21,506 --> 00:10:24,634 Then, before we could respond, we had a second message... 74 00:10:24,675 --> 00:10:27,720 ...that had been dictated by a bunch of hard-liners. 75 00:10:28,763 --> 00:10:32,934 And it said, in effect, " If you attack... 76 00:10:32,975 --> 00:10:35,019 ...we're prepared... 77 00:10:37,104 --> 00:10:39,148 ...to confront you with masses of military power. " 78 00:10:39,190 --> 00:10:43,361 So, what to do? We had the soft message and the hard message. 79 00:10:44,403 --> 00:10:49,617 At the elbow of President Kennedy was Tommy Thompson... 80 00:10:49,659 --> 00:10:52,703 ...former U.S. Ambassador to Moscow. 81 00:10:52,745 --> 00:10:56,916 He and Jane, his wife, had lived with Khrushchev and his wife on occasion. 82 00:10:56,958 --> 00:11:00,002 Tommy Thompson said, " Mr. President... 83 00:11:00,044 --> 00:11:04,215 ...I urge you to respond to the soft message. " 84 00:11:05,258 --> 00:11:08,386 The president said to Tommy, "We can't. That'll get us nowhere. " 85 00:11:09,428 --> 00:11:11,514 Tommy said, " Mr. President, you're wrong. " 86 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:14,642 Now, that takes a lot of guts. 87 00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:44,839 In Thompson's mind was this thought: 88 00:11:44,881 --> 00:11:48,009 " Khrushchev's gotten himself in a hell of a fix. " 89 00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:50,011 He would then think to himself, " My God... 90 00:11:50,052 --> 00:11:55,266 ...if I can get out of this with a deal that I can say to the Russian people: 91 00:11:55,308 --> 00:12:00,480 'Kennedy was going to destroy Castro and I prevented it. "' 92 00:12:00,521 --> 00:12:03,608 Thompson, knowing Khrushchev as he did, thought: 93 00:12:03,649 --> 00:12:04,650 " Khrushchev will accept that. " 94 00:12:05,693 --> 00:12:09,864 And Thompson was right. That's what I call empathy. 95 00:12:10,907 --> 00:12:14,035 We must try to put ourselves inside their skin... 96 00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:16,120 ...and look at us through their eyes... 97 00:12:16,162 --> 00:12:18,206 ...just to understand the thoughts... 98 00:12:19,248 --> 00:12:22,376 ...that lie behind their decisions and their actions. 99 00:12:28,633 --> 00:12:30,718 Khrushchev's advisors were saying: 100 00:12:31,761 --> 00:12:32,762 "There can be no deal... 101 00:12:32,804 --> 00:12:35,389 ...unless you somewhat reduce the pressure on us... 102 00:12:35,431 --> 00:12:38,017 ...when you ask us to reduce the pressure on you. " 103 00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:42,188 Also, we had attempted to invade Cuba. 104 00:12:43,231 --> 00:12:46,359 Well, with the Bay of Pigs. That undoubtedly influenced their thinking. 105 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,402 I think that's correct. 106 00:12:48,444 --> 00:12:51,572 But more importantly, from a Cuban and a Russian point of view... 107 00:12:52,615 --> 00:12:54,700 ...they knew what, in a sense, I really didn't know. 108 00:12:54,742 --> 00:12:56,744 We had attempted to assassinate Castro... 109 00:12:56,786 --> 00:12:59,872 ...under Eisenhower and Kennedy, and later, under Johnson. 110 00:12:59,914 --> 00:13:05,127 And in addition to that, major voices in the U.S. Were calling for invasion. 111 00:13:11,384 --> 00:13:14,470 In the first message, Khrushchev said this: 112 00:13:17,598 --> 00:13:21,769 "We and you ought not pull on the ends of a rope... 113 00:13:21,811 --> 00:13:24,897 ...which you have tied the knots of war. 114 00:13:28,025 --> 00:13:31,154 Because the more the two of us pull... 115 00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:35,324 ...the tighter the knot will be tied. 116 00:13:38,452 --> 00:13:41,581 And then it will be necessary to cut that knot... 117 00:13:42,623 --> 00:13:47,837 ...and what that would mean is not for me to explain to you. 118 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:54,093 I have participated in two wars and know that war ends... 119 00:13:54,135 --> 00:13:57,221 ...when it has rolled through cities and villages... 120 00:13:57,263 --> 00:14:00,349 ...everywhere sowing death and destruction. 121 00:14:02,435 --> 00:14:05,563 For such is the logic of war. 122 00:14:07,648 --> 00:14:10,776 If people do not display wisdom... 123 00:14:10,818 --> 00:14:13,863 ...they will clash like blind moles... 124 00:14:13,905 --> 00:14:18,075 ...and then mutual annihilation will commence. " 125 00:14:48,272 --> 00:14:51,400 I want to say, and this is very important: 126 00:14:51,442 --> 00:14:54,487 At the end, we lucked out. 127 00:14:54,529 --> 00:14:57,615 It was luck that prevented nuclear war. 128 00:14:57,657 --> 00:15:00,785 We came that close to nuclear war at the end. 129 00:15:00,827 --> 00:15:04,455 Rational individuals. Kennedy was rational. 130 00:15:04,497 --> 00:15:08,042 Khrushchev was rational. Castro was rational. 131 00:15:08,084 --> 00:15:12,255 Rational individuals came that close to total destruction of their societies. 132 00:15:12,296 --> 00:15:15,383 And that danger exists today. 133 00:15:32,066 --> 00:15:37,280 The major lesson of the Cuban Missile Crisis is this: 134 00:15:38,322 --> 00:15:42,493 The indefinite combination of human fallibility... 135 00:15:42,535 --> 00:15:46,664 ...and nuclear weapons will destroy nations. 136 00:15:50,835 --> 00:15:52,879 Is it right and proper... 137 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:59,177 ...that today there are 7500 strategic offensive nuclear warheads... 138 00:15:59,218 --> 00:16:02,263 ...of which 2500 are on 15-minute alert... 139 00:16:03,306 --> 00:16:07,477 ...to be launched by the decision of one human being? 140 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,332 It wasn't until January, 1992... 141 00:16:29,373 --> 00:16:33,544 ...in a meeting chaired by Castro in Havana, Cuba... 142 00:16:33,586 --> 00:16:37,715 ...that I learned 162 nuclear warheads... 143 00:16:38,758 --> 00:16:40,802 ...including 90 tactical warheads... 144 00:16:40,843 --> 00:16:43,971 ...were on the island at the time in this critical moment of the crisis. 145 00:16:49,185 --> 00:16:51,229 I couldn't believe what I was hearing... 146 00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:54,357 ...and Castro got very angry with me, because I said: 147 00:16:54,398 --> 00:16:57,527 " Mr. President, let's stop this meeting. This is totally new to me. 148 00:16:57,568 --> 00:16:59,612 I'm not sure I got the translation right. " 149 00:17:00,655 --> 00:17:01,697 Mr. President, I have three questions. 150 00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:04,826 Number one, did you know the nuclear warheads were there? 151 00:17:05,868 --> 00:17:06,869 Number two, if you did... 152 00:17:06,911 --> 00:17:09,497 ...would you have recommended to Khrushchev... 153 00:17:09,539 --> 00:17:12,083 ...in the face of a U.S. Attack, that he use them? 154 00:17:12,124 --> 00:17:15,253 Three, if he had used them, what would've happened to Cuba? 155 00:17:15,294 --> 00:17:17,296 He said, "One, I knew they were there. 156 00:17:17,338 --> 00:17:19,423 Two, I would not have recommended to Khrushchev. 157 00:17:20,466 --> 00:17:22,510 I did recommend to Khrushchev they be used. 158 00:17:22,552 --> 00:17:25,680 Three, what would happen to Cuba? It would've been totally destroyed. " 159 00:17:29,809 --> 00:17:31,894 That's how close we were. 160 00:17:33,980 --> 00:17:35,544 And he was willing to accept that? 161 00:17:35,579 --> 00:17:37,108 Yes... Oh, and he went on to say: 162 00:17:38,151 --> 00:17:41,237 " Mr. McNamara, if you and President Kennedy... 163 00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:44,407 ...had been in a similar situation, that's what you would've done. " 164 00:17:44,448 --> 00:17:47,535 I said, " Mr. President, I hope to God we would not have done it. " 165 00:17:48,578 --> 00:17:51,706 Pull the temple down on our heads? My God! 166 00:17:55,877 --> 00:17:56,878 In a sense, we'd won. 167 00:17:56,919 --> 00:18:01,090 We got the missiles out without war. 168 00:18:03,176 --> 00:18:06,262 My deputy and I brought the five chiefs over... 169 00:18:06,304 --> 00:18:09,432 ...and we sat down with Kennedy. And he said, "Gentlemen, we won. 170 00:18:09,474 --> 00:18:12,560 I don't want you ever to say it, but you know we won, I know we won. " 171 00:18:13,603 --> 00:18:16,689 And LeMay said, "Won? Hell, we lost! 172 00:18:16,731 --> 00:18:19,859 We should go in and wipe them out today. " 173 00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:26,073 LeMay believed that ultimately... 174 00:18:26,115 --> 00:18:28,159 ...we'd confront these people with nuclear weapons. 175 00:18:28,201 --> 00:18:32,371 And by God, we better do it when we have greater superiority... 176 00:18:32,413 --> 00:18:34,457 ...than we will have in the future. 177 00:18:48,012 --> 00:18:53,184 At the time, we had a 17-to-1 strategic advantage in nuclear numbers. 178 00:18:53,226 --> 00:18:57,355 We'd done 10 times as many tests as they had. 179 00:18:58,397 --> 00:19:02,527 We were certain we could retain that advantage... 180 00:19:02,568 --> 00:19:05,696 ...if we limited the tests. The chiefs were all opposed. 181 00:19:06,739 --> 00:19:07,782 They said, "The Soviets will cheat. " 182 00:19:08,825 --> 00:19:10,910 Well, I said, " How will they cheat?" 183 00:19:10,952 --> 00:19:12,995 You won't believe this, but they said: 184 00:19:14,038 --> 00:19:17,166 "They'll test them behind the moon. " 185 00:19:18,209 --> 00:19:20,294 I said, "You're out of your mind. " 186 00:19:21,337 --> 00:19:23,422 That's absurd. 187 00:19:25,508 --> 00:19:29,137 It's almost impossible for our people today... 188 00:19:29,178 --> 00:19:32,807 ...to put themselves back into that period. 189 00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:35,893 In my seven years as secretary... 190 00:19:35,935 --> 00:19:39,063 ...we came within a hairsbreadth of war with the Soviet Union... 191 00:19:40,106 --> 00:19:41,149 ...on three different occasions. 192 00:19:42,191 --> 00:19:44,235 Twenty-four hours a day, 365 days a year... 193 00:19:44,277 --> 00:19:48,447 ...for seven years as secretary of defense, I lived the Cold War. 194 00:19:50,533 --> 00:19:55,746 During the Kennedy administration, they designed a 100-megaton bomb. 195 00:19:55,788 --> 00:19:59,917 It was tested in the atmosphere. I remember this. 196 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,088 Cold War? Hell, it was a hot war. 197 00:20:08,259 --> 00:20:13,431 I think the human race needs to think more about killing... 198 00:20:13,473 --> 00:20:15,475 ...about conflict. 199 00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:18,644 Is that what we want in this 21st century? 200 00:20:49,926 --> 00:20:56,182 My earliest memory is of a city exploding with joy. 201 00:20:56,224 --> 00:21:01,395 It was November 11, 1918. I was 2 years old. 202 00:21:03,481 --> 00:21:07,652 You may not believe that I have the memory, but I do. 203 00:21:07,693 --> 00:21:11,322 I remember the tops of the streetcars... 204 00:21:11,364 --> 00:21:14,200 ...being crowded with human beings... 205 00:21:14,242 --> 00:21:17,036 ...cheering and kissing and screaming. 206 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:20,164 End of World War I. We'd won. 207 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:24,293 But also celebrating the belief... 208 00:21:24,335 --> 00:21:27,463 ...of many Americans, particularly Woodrow Wilson... 209 00:21:27,505 --> 00:21:29,549 ...we'd fought a war to end all wars. 210 00:21:32,677 --> 00:21:34,720 His dream was... 211 00:21:34,762 --> 00:21:38,891 ...that the world could avoid great wars in the future. 212 00:21:38,933 --> 00:21:43,062 Disputes among great nations would be resolved. 213 00:21:47,233 --> 00:21:48,234 I also remember... 214 00:21:48,276 --> 00:21:51,404 ...that I wasn't allowed to go outdoors to play with my friends... 215 00:21:52,446 --> 00:21:54,490 ...without wearing a mask. 216 00:21:54,532 --> 00:21:57,618 There was an ungodly flu epidemic. 217 00:21:57,660 --> 00:22:00,788 Large numbers of Americans were dying, 600,000. 218 00:22:00,830 --> 00:22:03,916 And millions across the world. 219 00:22:16,429 --> 00:22:20,600 My class in the first grade was housed in a shack, a wooden shack. 220 00:22:20,641 --> 00:22:22,643 But we had an absolutely superb teacher. 221 00:22:22,685 --> 00:22:27,857 And this teacher gave a test to the class every month... 222 00:22:27,899 --> 00:22:31,027 ...and she re- seated the class based on the results of that test. 223 00:22:32,069 --> 00:22:35,198 There were vertical rows, and she put the person with the highest grade... 224 00:22:35,239 --> 00:22:37,241 ...in the first seat on the left-hand row. 225 00:22:37,283 --> 00:22:40,369 And I worked my tail off to be in that first seat. 226 00:22:40,411 --> 00:22:43,539 Now, the majority of the classmates were whites, Caucasians, so on. 227 00:22:43,581 --> 00:22:45,583 Wasps, if you will. 228 00:22:45,625 --> 00:22:51,881 But my competition for that first seat were Chinese, Japanese and Jews. 229 00:22:51,923 --> 00:22:54,967 On Saturday and Sunday, I played with my classmates. 230 00:22:55,009 --> 00:22:59,138 They went to their ethnic schools. They learned their native language. 231 00:22:59,180 --> 00:23:00,223 They learned their culture, history. 232 00:23:01,224 --> 00:23:04,352 And they came back determined on Monday to beat that damn Irishman. 233 00:23:04,393 --> 00:23:07,438 But they didn't do it very often. 234 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,651 One congressman called you "Mr. L- Have-All-The-Answers McNamara. " 235 00:23:11,692 --> 00:23:13,694 And there's been suggestion from some congressmen... 236 00:23:13,736 --> 00:23:16,864 ...that you come up there, in spite of their experience... 237 00:23:16,906 --> 00:23:19,992 ...prepared to give them lessons in things. 238 00:23:20,034 --> 00:23:20,993 Is that your attitude? 239 00:23:21,035 --> 00:23:25,206 No. Perhaps they don't know how much I don't know. 240 00:23:25,248 --> 00:23:27,250 And there is much indeed. 241 00:23:27,291 --> 00:23:29,335 I do make a serious effort... 242 00:23:29,377 --> 00:23:34,590 ...to prepare myself properly for these congressional discussions. 243 00:23:34,632 --> 00:23:37,718 I suppose I spend, perhaps, 100 or 120 hours... 244 00:23:38,761 --> 00:23:40,805 ...in testifying before Congress each year. 245 00:23:40,847 --> 00:23:45,017 And each hour of testimony requires three to four hours of preparation. 246 00:23:45,059 --> 00:23:49,188 What about the contention that your attitude is sometimes arrogant? 247 00:23:50,231 --> 00:23:52,316 Have you ever been wrong, sir? 248 00:23:52,358 --> 00:23:54,360 Oh, yes, indeed. My heavens. 249 00:23:54,402 --> 00:23:56,988 I'm not gonna tell you when I've been wrong. 250 00:23:57,029 --> 00:23:59,615 If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you. 251 00:23:59,657 --> 00:24:00,658 Oh, on countless occasions. 252 00:24:04,829 --> 00:24:08,958 I applied to Stanford University. I very much wanted to go. 253 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,128 But I couldn't afford it, so I lived at home and I went to Berkeley. 254 00:24:12,170 --> 00:24:14,172 Fifty-two dollars a year tuition. 255 00:24:14,213 --> 00:24:17,341 I started Berkeley at the bottom of the Depression. 256 00:24:17,383 --> 00:24:20,470 Twenty-five million males were unemployed. 257 00:24:20,511 --> 00:24:21,471 Out of that class of 3500... 258 00:24:21,512 --> 00:24:25,641 ...three elected to Phi Beta Kappa at the end of sophomore year. 259 00:24:25,683 --> 00:24:29,812 Of those three, one became a Rhodes Scholar, I went to Harvard... 260 00:24:29,854 --> 00:24:31,898 ...the third went to work for $65 a month... 261 00:24:31,939 --> 00:24:33,983 ...and was damn happy to have the job. 262 00:24:36,068 --> 00:24:38,654 The society was on the verge of... 263 00:24:38,696 --> 00:24:41,240 ...I don't want to say revolution... 264 00:24:41,282 --> 00:24:45,453 ...although, had Roosevelt not done some of the things he did... 265 00:24:45,495 --> 00:24:48,539 ...it could've become far more violent. 266 00:24:48,581 --> 00:24:51,709 In any event, that was what I was thrown into. 267 00:24:52,752 --> 00:24:54,837 I never heard of Plato and Aristotle... 268 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,965 ...before I became a freshman at Berkeley. 269 00:24:58,007 --> 00:25:00,051 And I remember the professor, Lowenberg... 270 00:25:00,092 --> 00:25:02,157 ...the freshman philosophy professor... 271 00:25:02,192 --> 00:25:04,222 I couldn't wait to go to another class. 272 00:25:16,734 --> 00:25:19,862 I took more philosophy courses, particularly one in logic... 273 00:25:19,904 --> 00:25:21,948 ...and one in ethics. 274 00:25:24,033 --> 00:25:27,119 Stress on values... 275 00:25:27,161 --> 00:25:30,289 ...something beyond one's self... 276 00:25:30,331 --> 00:25:33,417 ...and a responsibility to society. 277 00:25:36,546 --> 00:25:38,589 After graduating University of California... 278 00:25:38,631 --> 00:25:41,759 ...I went to Harvard Graduate School of Business for two years... 279 00:25:41,801 --> 00:25:43,845 ...and then I went back to San Francisco. 280 00:25:46,973 --> 00:25:51,102 I began to court this young lady that I'd met when we were 17... 281 00:25:51,144 --> 00:25:53,187 ...in our first week at Berkeley: 282 00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:56,315 Margaret Craig. 283 00:25:57,358 --> 00:26:01,529 And I was making some progress after eight or nine months. 284 00:26:02,572 --> 00:26:04,615 I proposed and she accepted. 285 00:26:04,657 --> 00:26:09,871 She went with her aunt and her mother on a trip across the country. 286 00:26:09,912 --> 00:26:14,041 She telegraphed me, " Must order engraved invitations... 287 00:26:14,083 --> 00:26:16,127 ...to include your middle name, what is it?" 288 00:26:16,169 --> 00:26:18,171 I wired back, " My middle name is Strange. " 289 00:26:18,212 --> 00:26:21,299 She said, " I know it's strange, but what is it?" 290 00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:25,511 Well, I mean, it is Strange. It's Robert Strange McNamara. 291 00:26:32,810 --> 00:26:34,896 And it was a marriage made in heaven. 292 00:26:38,024 --> 00:26:42,153 At the end of a year, we had our first child. 293 00:26:42,195 --> 00:26:47,408 The delivery costs were $100, and we paid that $10 a month. 294 00:26:48,451 --> 00:26:52,622 Those were some of the happiest days of our lives. 295 00:26:53,664 --> 00:26:55,750 And then the war came. 296 00:27:05,134 --> 00:27:07,220 I'd been promoted to assistant professor. 297 00:27:07,261 --> 00:27:09,305 I was the youngest at Harvard. 298 00:27:10,348 --> 00:27:14,477 And on a salary, by the way, of $4000 a year. 299 00:27:18,648 --> 00:27:22,276 Harvard Business School's market was drying up. 300 00:27:22,318 --> 00:27:25,905 The males were being drafted or volunteering. 301 00:27:25,947 --> 00:27:29,575 So the dean, being farsighted, brought back a government contract... 302 00:27:29,617 --> 00:27:33,246 ...to establish an officer candidate school for what was called... 303 00:27:33,287 --> 00:27:35,331 ...Statistical Control in the Air Force. 304 00:27:43,673 --> 00:27:46,801 We said, " Look, we're not gonna take anybody you send up here. 305 00:27:46,843 --> 00:27:49,887 We're gonna select the people. " 306 00:27:49,929 --> 00:27:53,057 You have a punch card for every human being... 307 00:27:53,099 --> 00:27:55,101 ...brought into the Air Corps. 308 00:27:55,143 --> 00:27:59,313 We're gonna run those punch cards through the IBM sorting machines... 309 00:27:59,355 --> 00:28:03,484 ...and we're gonna sort on age, education, accomplishment... 310 00:28:04,527 --> 00:28:06,612 ...grades, et cetera. 311 00:28:08,698 --> 00:28:11,826 We were looking for the best and the brightest. 312 00:28:11,868 --> 00:28:14,954 The best brains, the greatest capacity to lead... 313 00:28:14,996 --> 00:28:17,039 ...the best judgment. 314 00:28:28,509 --> 00:28:30,595 The U.S. Was just beginning to bomb. 315 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,724 We were bombing by daylight. 316 00:28:34,765 --> 00:28:37,852 The loss rate was very, very high. 317 00:28:39,937 --> 00:28:43,065 So they commissioned a study. And what did we find? 318 00:28:44,108 --> 00:28:46,194 We found the abort rate was 20 percent. 319 00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:48,279 Twenty percent of the planes leaving England... 320 00:28:49,322 --> 00:28:52,450 ...to bomb Germany turned around before they got to the target. 321 00:28:52,492 --> 00:28:55,578 That was a hell of a mess. We lost 20 percent of our capability. 322 00:28:56,621 --> 00:28:58,664 I think it was called Form 1-A... 323 00:28:58,706 --> 00:29:00,792 ...or something like that was a mission report. 324 00:29:01,834 --> 00:29:03,920 And if you aborted a mission, you had to write down why. 325 00:29:04,962 --> 00:29:07,048 So we get all these things and we analyze them... 326 00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:09,133 ...and we finally concluded: 327 00:29:10,176 --> 00:29:12,220 It was baloney. 328 00:29:12,261 --> 00:29:14,305 They were aborting out of fear. 329 00:29:14,347 --> 00:29:17,475 Because the loss rate was four percent per sortie. 330 00:29:17,517 --> 00:29:19,519 The combat tour was 25 sorties. 331 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,604 It didn't mean 100 percent would die... 332 00:29:21,646 --> 00:29:24,774 ...but a lot of them were gonna be killed. They knew that... 333 00:29:24,816 --> 00:29:27,902 ...and they found reasons to not go over the target. 334 00:29:28,945 --> 00:29:32,073 So we reported this. 335 00:29:37,286 --> 00:29:39,372 One of the commanders was Curtis LeMay. 336 00:29:39,413 --> 00:29:43,501 Colonel in command of a B-24 group. 337 00:29:43,543 --> 00:29:47,713 He was the finest combat commander of any service I came across in war. 338 00:29:47,755 --> 00:29:51,884 But he was extraordinarily belligerent, many thought brutal. 339 00:29:51,926 --> 00:29:54,971 He got the report. He issued an order. 340 00:29:55,012 --> 00:29:58,141 He said, " I will be in the lead plane on every mission. 341 00:29:58,182 --> 00:30:01,227 Any plane that takes off will go over the target... 342 00:30:01,269 --> 00:30:03,312 ...or the crew will be court-martialed. " 343 00:30:03,354 --> 00:30:05,398 The abort rate dropped overnight. 344 00:30:07,483 --> 00:30:09,569 Now, that's the kind of a commander he was. 345 00:30:11,654 --> 00:30:15,825 Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States. 346 00:30:16,868 --> 00:30:19,453 My friends, on this Christmas Eve... 347 00:30:19,495 --> 00:30:22,039 ...there are over 10 million men... 348 00:30:22,081 --> 00:30:27,295 ...in the Armed Forces of the United States alone. 349 00:30:27,336 --> 00:30:32,467 One year ago, 1, 700, 000 were serving overseas. 350 00:30:32,508 --> 00:30:38,764 By next July first, that number will rise to over five million. 351 00:30:39,807 --> 00:30:45,021 Plenty of bad news for the Japs in the not-too-far-distant future. 352 00:31:04,832 --> 00:31:09,003 The U.S. Air Force had a new airplane, named the B-29. 353 00:31:16,302 --> 00:31:22,517 The B-17 s and B-24s in Europe bombed from 15, 16,000 feet. 354 00:31:24,602 --> 00:31:27,730 The problem was that they were subject to antiaircraft fire... 355 00:31:27,772 --> 00:31:29,816 ...and to fighter aircraft. 356 00:31:30,858 --> 00:31:33,986 To relieve that, this B-29 was being developed... 357 00:31:34,028 --> 00:31:36,030 ...that bombed from high altitude... 358 00:31:36,072 --> 00:31:41,285 ...and it was thought we could destroy targets more efficiently and effectively. 359 00:31:48,584 --> 00:31:50,670 I was brought back from the 8th Air Force... 360 00:31:51,712 --> 00:31:55,883 ...and assigned to the first B-29s, the 58th Bomb Wing. 361 00:31:56,926 --> 00:32:02,140 We had to fly those planes from the bases in Kansas to India. 362 00:32:03,182 --> 00:32:07,353 Then we had to fly fuel over the hump into China. 363 00:32:26,122 --> 00:32:31,335 The airfields were built with Chinese labor. 364 00:32:33,421 --> 00:32:35,506 It was an insane operation. 365 00:32:39,677 --> 00:32:42,805 I can still remember them hauling these huge rollers... 366 00:32:43,848 --> 00:32:46,934 ...to crush the stone and make them flat. 367 00:32:49,020 --> 00:32:51,105 Somebody would slip, the roller would roll over him... 368 00:32:51,147 --> 00:32:54,233 ...everybody would laugh and go on. 369 00:32:57,361 --> 00:32:59,405 We were supposed to take these B-29s... 370 00:32:59,447 --> 00:33:02,575 There were no tanker aircraft there. We were to fill them with fuel... 371 00:33:03,618 --> 00:33:06,746 ...fly from India to Chengdu, offload the fuel, fly back to India... 372 00:33:06,788 --> 00:33:10,875 ...make enough missions to build up fuel in Chengdu... 373 00:33:10,917 --> 00:33:16,130 ...fly to Yawata, Japan, bomb the steel mills and go back to India. 374 00:33:17,173 --> 00:33:21,344 We had so little training on this problem of maximizing efficiency... 375 00:33:22,386 --> 00:33:25,515 ...we actually found, to get some of the B-29s back... 376 00:33:25,556 --> 00:33:28,643 ...instead of offloading fuel, they had to take it on. 377 00:33:31,771 --> 00:33:34,899 To make a long story short, it wasn't worth a damn. 378 00:33:35,942 --> 00:33:39,070 And it was LeMay who really came to that conclusion and led the chiefs... 379 00:33:39,111 --> 00:33:43,241 ...to move the whole thing to the Marianas, which devastated Japan. 380 00:34:26,993 --> 00:34:30,121 LeMay was focused on only one thing: 381 00:34:31,164 --> 00:34:33,249 Target destruction. 382 00:34:35,334 --> 00:34:38,463 Most Air Force generals can say how many planes they had... 383 00:34:38,504 --> 00:34:41,591 ...how many tons of bombs they dropped, or whatever it was. 384 00:34:41,632 --> 00:34:43,634 But he was the only person that I knew... 385 00:34:43,676 --> 00:34:47,847 ...in the senior command in the Air Force who focused solely... 386 00:34:47,889 --> 00:34:52,018 ...on the loss of his crews per unit of target destruction. 387 00:34:56,189 --> 00:35:02,445 I was on the island of Guam, in his command, in March of 1945. 388 00:35:03,488 --> 00:35:07,658 In that single night, we burned to death... 389 00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:11,829 ...100,000 Japanese civilians in Tokyo. 390 00:35:11,871 --> 00:35:13,915 Men, women and children. 391 00:35:17,043 --> 00:35:20,171 Were you aware this was going to happen? 392 00:35:22,256 --> 00:35:23,299 Well, I was... 393 00:35:24,342 --> 00:35:29,555 ...part of a mechanism that, in a sense, recommended it. 394 00:35:44,111 --> 00:35:48,282 I analyzed bombing operations, and how to make them more efficient. 395 00:35:48,324 --> 00:35:51,410 I.e., not more efficient in the sense of killing more... 396 00:35:51,452 --> 00:35:55,581 ...but more efficient in weakening the adversary. 397 00:35:58,709 --> 00:36:02,839 I wrote one report analyzing... 398 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,008 ...the efficiency of the B-29 operations. 399 00:36:07,051 --> 00:36:11,222 The B-29 could get above the fighter aircraft and above the air defense... 400 00:36:11,264 --> 00:36:13,266 ...so the loss rate would be much less. 401 00:36:13,307 --> 00:36:17,478 The problem was, the accuracy was also much less. 402 00:36:28,948 --> 00:36:32,076 Now, I don't want to suggest that it was my report... 403 00:36:32,118 --> 00:36:35,204 ...that led to... I'll call it the firebombing. 404 00:36:38,332 --> 00:36:41,461 It isn't that I'm absolving myself of blame for the firebombing. 405 00:36:41,502 --> 00:36:43,546 I don't want to suggest that it was I... 406 00:36:43,588 --> 00:36:45,631 ...that put in LeMay's mind... 407 00:36:46,674 --> 00:36:48,759 ...that his operations were totally inefficient... 408 00:36:49,802 --> 00:36:53,973 ...and had to be drastically changed. But, anyhow, that's what he did. 409 00:36:54,015 --> 00:36:57,602 He took the B-29s down to 5000 feet... 410 00:36:57,643 --> 00:37:01,230 ...and he decided to bomb with firebombs. 411 00:37:21,042 --> 00:37:23,085 I participated in the interrogation... 412 00:37:23,127 --> 00:37:27,298 ...of the B-29 bomber crews that came back that night. 413 00:37:27,340 --> 00:37:31,469 A room full of crewmen and intelligence interrogators. 414 00:37:31,511 --> 00:37:33,513 A captain got up, a young captain said: 415 00:37:33,554 --> 00:37:36,641 "Goddamn it, I'd like to know who the son of a bitch was... 416 00:37:36,682 --> 00:37:41,896 ...that took this magnificent airplane, designed to bomb from 23,000 feet... 417 00:37:41,938 --> 00:37:46,067 ...and he took it down to 5000 feet, and I lost my wingman. 418 00:37:46,108 --> 00:37:47,109 He was shot and killed. " 419 00:37:49,195 --> 00:37:52,323 LeMay spoke in monosyllables. 420 00:37:52,365 --> 00:37:54,367 I never heard him say... 421 00:37:54,408 --> 00:37:56,452 ...more than two words in sequence. 422 00:37:56,494 --> 00:38:00,623 It was basically, "Yes," " No," "Yep"... 423 00:38:00,665 --> 00:38:04,836 ..."That's all," or " Hell with it. " That was all he said. 424 00:38:05,878 --> 00:38:09,006 And LeMay was totally intolerant of criticism. 425 00:38:09,048 --> 00:38:12,135 He never engaged in discussion with anybody. 426 00:38:13,177 --> 00:38:15,221 He stood up. 427 00:38:15,263 --> 00:38:17,348 "Why are we here? 428 00:38:17,390 --> 00:38:19,433 Why are we here? 429 00:38:20,434 --> 00:38:23,563 You lost your wingman. It hurts me as much as... 430 00:38:24,605 --> 00:38:26,149 ...it does you. 431 00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:27,733 I sent him there. 432 00:38:28,776 --> 00:38:30,862 And I've been there, I know what it is. 433 00:38:30,903 --> 00:38:33,489 But you lost one wingman... 434 00:38:33,531 --> 00:38:36,075 ...and we destroyed Tokyo. " 435 00:38:42,331 --> 00:38:45,460 Fifty square miles of Tokyo were burned. 436 00:38:46,502 --> 00:38:48,588 Tokyo was a wooden city, and when we dropped firebombs... 437 00:38:49,630 --> 00:38:51,716 ...it just burned it. 438 00:39:38,638 --> 00:39:41,766 The choice of incendiary bombs... 439 00:39:41,801 --> 00:39:44,852 ...where did that come from? 440 00:39:45,895 --> 00:39:47,939 I think the issue... 441 00:39:47,980 --> 00:39:51,108 ...is not so much incendiary bombs. I think the issue is... 442 00:39:52,151 --> 00:39:55,279 ...in order to win, should you kill 100,000 people in one night? 443 00:39:55,321 --> 00:39:56,280 By firebombing or any other way? 444 00:39:56,322 --> 00:39:59,450 LeMay's answer would be, clearly, "Yes. " 445 00:39:59,492 --> 00:40:00,493 " McNamara, do you mean to say... 446 00:40:01,536 --> 00:40:02,578 ...that instead of killing 100,000... 447 00:40:03,621 --> 00:40:06,749 ...burning to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night... 448 00:40:06,791 --> 00:40:09,877 ...we should have burned to death a lesser number or none? 449 00:40:09,919 --> 00:40:13,005 And then had our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo... 450 00:40:13,047 --> 00:40:15,049 ...and been slaughtered in tens of thousands? 451 00:40:15,091 --> 00:40:18,219 Is that what you're proposing? Is that moral? Is that wise?" 452 00:40:18,261 --> 00:40:21,347 Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb... 453 00:40:21,389 --> 00:40:23,391 ...if LeMay was burning up Japan? 454 00:40:23,432 --> 00:40:27,562 And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 455 00:40:27,603 --> 00:40:30,731 58 percent of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 456 00:40:31,774 --> 00:40:33,860 58 percent of Cleveland destroyed. 457 00:40:35,945 --> 00:40:40,116 Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51 percent of New York destroyed. 458 00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:44,287 99 percent of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 459 00:40:45,329 --> 00:40:49,500 40 percent of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. 460 00:40:51,586 --> 00:40:53,671 This was all done before... 461 00:40:54,714 --> 00:40:55,756 ...the dropping of the nuclear bomb. 462 00:40:56,799 --> 00:41:00,970 Which, by the way, was dropped by LeMay's command. 463 00:41:03,055 --> 00:41:06,184 Proportionality should be a guideline in war. 464 00:41:30,124 --> 00:41:33,211 Killing 50 to 90 percent... 465 00:41:33,252 --> 00:41:36,339 ...of the people in 67 Japanese cities... 466 00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:39,509 ...and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs... 467 00:41:40,551 --> 00:41:43,679 ...is not proportional, in the minds of some people... 468 00:41:43,721 --> 00:41:46,808 ...to the objectives we were trying to achieve. 469 00:42:03,491 --> 00:42:06,619 I don't fault Truman for dropping the nuclear bomb. 470 00:42:07,662 --> 00:42:09,747 The U.S. -Japanese War was one of the most brutal wars... 471 00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:11,833 ...in all of human history. 472 00:42:12,875 --> 00:42:16,003 Kamikaze pilots, suicide, unbelievable. 473 00:42:17,046 --> 00:42:18,047 What one can criticize... 474 00:42:18,089 --> 00:42:21,175 ...is that the human race prior to that time and today... 475 00:42:21,217 --> 00:42:26,430 ...has not really grappled with what are, I'll call it "the rules of war. " 476 00:42:26,472 --> 00:42:30,601 Was there a rule then that said you shouldn't bomb, shouldn't kill... 477 00:42:30,643 --> 00:42:33,688 ...shouldn't burn to death 100,000 civilians in a night? 478 00:42:35,773 --> 00:42:37,817 LeMay said, " If we'd lost the war... 479 00:42:37,859 --> 00:42:40,987 ...we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals. " 480 00:42:41,028 --> 00:42:43,072 And I think he's right. 481 00:42:45,158 --> 00:42:48,244 He, and I'd say I... 482 00:42:48,286 --> 00:42:50,371 ...were behaving as war criminals. 483 00:42:54,542 --> 00:42:58,713 LeMay recognized that what he was doing... 484 00:42:58,754 --> 00:43:01,841 ...would be thought immoral... 485 00:43:01,883 --> 00:43:03,926 ...if his side had lost. 486 00:43:06,012 --> 00:43:09,140 But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win? 487 00:45:36,078 --> 00:45:40,249 At some point, we have to approach Vietnam, and I want to know... 488 00:45:40,291 --> 00:45:42,335 ...how you can best set that up for me. 489 00:45:42,376 --> 00:45:44,420 Yeah, well... 490 00:45:45,463 --> 00:45:49,634 ...that's a hard, hard question. I think... 491 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,890 I think we have to approach it in the context of the Cold War. 492 00:45:55,932 --> 00:45:58,518 But first I'll have to talk about Ford. 493 00:45:58,559 --> 00:46:01,103 I've got to go back to the end of the war. 494 00:46:13,616 --> 00:46:16,702 I had a terrible headache... 495 00:46:16,744 --> 00:46:20,915 ...so Marg drove me in to the Air Force regional hospital. 496 00:46:20,957 --> 00:46:23,000 A week later, Marg came in... 497 00:46:24,043 --> 00:46:26,087 ...many of the same symptoms. 498 00:46:26,129 --> 00:46:30,299 It's hard to believe, and I don't think I've heard of another case... 499 00:46:30,341 --> 00:46:32,343 ...where two individuals, husband and wife... 500 00:46:32,385 --> 00:46:35,513 ...came down, essentially, at the same time with polio. 501 00:46:36,556 --> 00:46:40,726 We were both in the hospital on V-J Day. 502 00:46:43,813 --> 00:46:44,814 A friend of mine said: 503 00:46:44,856 --> 00:46:47,942 "We're gonna find a corporation in America that needs... 504 00:46:47,984 --> 00:46:51,112 ...the advice and capabilities of this extraordinary group... 505 00:46:51,154 --> 00:46:53,156 ...I'm forming and you gotta be in it. " 506 00:46:53,197 --> 00:46:56,325 I said, "To hell with it. I'm going back to Harvard. 507 00:46:57,368 --> 00:46:59,454 Marg and I wanna do that. I'm gonna spend my life there. " 508 00:47:00,496 --> 00:47:03,624 He said, " Look, Bob, you can't pay Marg's hospital bills. 509 00:47:03,666 --> 00:47:05,668 You're crazy as hell. " He said, " By the way... 510 00:47:05,710 --> 00:47:09,839 ...the company that most needs our help in all the U.S. Is Ford. " 511 00:47:09,881 --> 00:47:13,009 I said, " How'd you learn that?" " I read an article in Life magazine. " 512 00:47:15,094 --> 00:47:17,138 Of the top 1000 executives at Ford... 513 00:47:17,180 --> 00:47:20,308 ...I don't believe there were 10 college graduates... 514 00:47:21,350 --> 00:47:23,436 ...and Henry Ford II needed help. 515 00:47:25,521 --> 00:47:27,607 They were gonna give us tests. 516 00:47:27,648 --> 00:47:29,650 Two full days of testing... 517 00:47:29,692 --> 00:47:33,863 ...intelligence tests, achievement tests, personality tests, you name it. 518 00:47:33,905 --> 00:47:38,034 This sounds absurd, but I remember a question on one of the tests was: 519 00:47:38,075 --> 00:47:42,205 "Would you rather be a florist or a coal miner?" 520 00:47:44,290 --> 00:47:46,375 I had been a florist. I worked as a florist... 521 00:47:46,417 --> 00:47:48,461 ...during some of my Christmas vacations. 522 00:47:49,504 --> 00:47:53,674 I put down coal miner. I think the reasons are obvious to you. 523 00:47:54,717 --> 00:47:57,845 This group of 10 people had been trained... 524 00:47:57,887 --> 00:48:00,932 ...in the officer candidate school at Harvard. 525 00:48:00,973 --> 00:48:05,144 In some tests we had the highest marks that had ever been scored. 526 00:48:05,186 --> 00:48:09,273 In other tests, we were in the upper one percentile. 527 00:48:15,530 --> 00:48:18,658 From 1926 to 1946, including the war years... 528 00:48:18,699 --> 00:48:21,786 ...Ford Motor Company just barely broke even. 529 00:48:22,829 --> 00:48:24,914 It was a God-awful mess. 530 00:48:28,042 --> 00:48:31,170 I thought we had a responsibility to the stockholders... 531 00:48:32,213 --> 00:48:37,426 ...and God knows you cannot believe how bad the situation had been. 532 00:48:55,153 --> 00:48:57,238 They had no market research organization. I set one up. 533 00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,323 Manager said, "What do you want studied?" 534 00:49:00,366 --> 00:49:02,452 I said, " Find out who's buying Volkswagens. 535 00:49:02,493 --> 00:49:04,495 Everybody says it's a no-good car. 536 00:49:04,537 --> 00:49:06,622 It was only selling about 20,000 a year... 537 00:49:07,665 --> 00:49:09,750 ...but I want to know what's gonna happen. 538 00:49:09,792 --> 00:49:11,836 Is it gonna stay the same, go down, or go up? 539 00:49:11,878 --> 00:49:12,879 Find out who buys them. " 540 00:49:13,921 --> 00:49:15,965 He came back six months later, he said: 541 00:49:16,007 --> 00:49:20,178 "Well, they're professors, and they're doctors and they're lawyers... 542 00:49:20,219 --> 00:49:23,264 ...and they're obviously people who can afford more. " 543 00:49:23,306 --> 00:49:26,434 Well, that set me to thinking about what we in the industry should do. 544 00:49:27,477 --> 00:49:29,520 Was there a market we were missing? 545 00:49:30,563 --> 00:49:34,734 At this time nobody believed Americans wanted cheaper cars. 546 00:49:34,775 --> 00:49:37,862 They wanted conspicuous consumption. 547 00:49:38,905 --> 00:49:41,991 Cadillac, with these huge, ostentatious fins... 548 00:49:42,033 --> 00:49:45,161 ...set the style for the industry for 10 or 15 years. 549 00:49:47,246 --> 00:49:49,332 And that's what we were up against. 550 00:49:52,460 --> 00:49:55,588 We introduced the Falcon as a more economical car... 551 00:49:55,630 --> 00:49:59,759 ...and it was a huge success profit-wise. 552 00:50:03,930 --> 00:50:06,015 We accomplished a lot. 553 00:50:21,656 --> 00:50:24,784 I said, "What about accidents? I hear a lot about accidents. " 554 00:50:24,826 --> 00:50:27,912 "Oh, yes, we'll get you some data on that. " 555 00:50:32,083 --> 00:50:37,296 There were about 40,000 deaths per year from automobile accidents... 556 00:50:37,338 --> 00:50:39,382 ...and about a million, or a million-two injuries. 557 00:50:40,424 --> 00:50:42,510 I said, "What causes it?" " It's obvious. 558 00:50:42,552 --> 00:50:44,595 It's human error and mechanical failure. " 559 00:50:45,638 --> 00:50:48,766 I said, " If it's mechanical, we might be involved. Find out. 560 00:50:48,808 --> 00:50:51,853 If it's mechanical failure, I want to stop it. " 561 00:50:51,894 --> 00:50:54,981 Well, he said, "There's really very few statistics available. " 562 00:50:55,022 --> 00:50:58,067 I said, " Damn it, find out what can we learn. " 563 00:50:58,109 --> 00:51:01,237 "The only place we can find that knows anything about it... 564 00:51:01,279 --> 00:51:02,280 ...is Cornell Aeronautical Labs. " 565 00:51:03,322 --> 00:51:05,366 They said, "The major problem is packaging. " 566 00:51:05,408 --> 00:51:08,536 They said, "You buy eggs and you know how eggs come in a carton?" 567 00:51:08,578 --> 00:51:10,580 I said, " I don't buy eggs. My wife does it. " 568 00:51:10,621 --> 00:51:14,792 They said, "Well, you ask her, when she puts that carton down... 569 00:51:14,834 --> 00:51:18,963 ...on the drain board when she gets home, do the eggs break?" 570 00:51:19,005 --> 00:51:21,007 I asked Marg and she said no. 571 00:51:21,048 --> 00:51:24,177 Cornell said, "That's because they're packaged properly. 572 00:51:24,218 --> 00:51:26,262 Now, if we packaged people in cars the same way... 573 00:51:27,305 --> 00:51:29,390 ...we could reduce the breakage. " 574 00:51:38,774 --> 00:51:41,861 We lacked lab facilities, so we dropped human skulls... 575 00:51:41,903 --> 00:51:47,116 ...in different packages, down the stairwells of the dormitories at Cornell. 576 00:51:49,202 --> 00:51:53,372 Well, that sounds absurd, but that guy was absolutely right. 577 00:51:54,415 --> 00:51:57,543 It was packaging which could make the difference. 578 00:52:06,928 --> 00:52:12,141 In a crash, the driver was often impaled on the steering wheel. 579 00:52:13,184 --> 00:52:18,356 The passenger was often injured because he'd hit the windshield... 580 00:52:18,397 --> 00:52:21,484 ...or the header bar, or the instrument panel. 581 00:52:23,569 --> 00:52:27,740 So in the 1956 model Ford we introduced steering wheels... 582 00:52:27,782 --> 00:52:29,826 ...that prevented being impaled. We introduced... 583 00:52:30,868 --> 00:52:33,996 ...padded instrument panels, and we introduced seat belts. 584 00:52:36,082 --> 00:52:39,210 We estimated if there would be 100 percent use of the seat belts... 585 00:52:39,252 --> 00:52:42,338 ...we could save 20-odd thousand lives a year. 586 00:52:43,381 --> 00:52:45,466 Everybody was opposed to it. 587 00:52:52,765 --> 00:52:55,893 You couldn't get people to use seat belts. 588 00:52:55,935 --> 00:52:59,021 But those who did saved their lives. 589 00:53:16,747 --> 00:53:18,833 Now, let me jump ahead. 590 00:53:27,175 --> 00:53:29,260 It's July, 1960. 591 00:53:31,345 --> 00:53:34,474 John Bugas, vice president, industrial relations... 592 00:53:34,515 --> 00:53:37,560 ...clearly had his eyes on becoming president. 593 00:53:37,602 --> 00:53:42,773 I'm the group vice president in charge of all of the car divisions. 594 00:53:42,815 --> 00:53:45,902 Henry was a night owl. He always wanted to go out. 595 00:53:45,943 --> 00:53:46,944 You know, it's 2 a. m. Or something. 596 00:53:47,987 --> 00:53:51,115 He said, " Come up, have a nightcap. " " I don't want one, I'm going to bed. " 597 00:53:51,157 --> 00:53:55,286 John said, " I'll come up, Henry. " " I didn't ask you. I asked Bob. " 598 00:53:55,328 --> 00:53:58,414 He said, " Bob, come on up. " So I finally went up. 599 00:53:58,456 --> 00:54:00,500 That's when he asked me to be president. 600 00:54:03,628 --> 00:54:06,756 I was the first president in the history of the company... 601 00:54:07,799 --> 00:54:10,927 ...that had ever been president other than a member of the Ford family. 602 00:54:11,969 --> 00:54:14,055 And after five weeks, I quit. 603 00:54:26,567 --> 00:54:27,568 The telephone rang... 604 00:54:27,610 --> 00:54:30,738 ...a person comes on and says: " I'm Robert Kennedy. 605 00:54:30,780 --> 00:54:33,825 My brother, Jack Kennedy, would like you... 606 00:54:33,866 --> 00:54:35,952 ...to meet our brother- in-law, Sergeant Shriver. " 607 00:54:36,994 --> 00:54:40,081 Four o'clock, Sarge comes in. Never met him. 608 00:54:40,123 --> 00:54:44,252 And he said, " I've been authorized by my brother- in-law... 609 00:54:44,293 --> 00:54:48,464 ...Jack Kennedy, to offer you the position of secretary of the treasury. " 610 00:54:48,506 --> 00:54:50,550 "You're crazy. I know a little about finance... 611 00:54:50,591 --> 00:54:52,593 ...but I'm not qualified for that position. " 612 00:54:52,635 --> 00:54:55,763 "Anticipating you might say that, the president-elect... 613 00:54:55,805 --> 00:54:58,891 ...authorized me to offer you the secretary of defense. " 614 00:54:58,933 --> 00:55:00,935 " I was in World War II for three years... 615 00:55:00,977 --> 00:55:04,105 ...but secretary of defense? I'm not qualified for that. " 616 00:55:04,147 --> 00:55:06,107 He said, "Anticipating that... 617 00:55:06,149 --> 00:55:09,277 ...would you do him the courtesy of agreeing to meet with him?" 618 00:55:09,318 --> 00:55:12,363 So I go home. I meet with Marg. 619 00:55:12,405 --> 00:55:16,576 If I could appoint every senior official in the department... 620 00:55:16,617 --> 00:55:19,203 ...and if I was guaranteed I wouldn't have to... 621 00:55:19,245 --> 00:55:21,747 ...be part of that damn Washington social world. 622 00:55:21,789 --> 00:55:25,960 She said, "Well, okay, why don't you write a contract with the president... 623 00:55:26,002 --> 00:55:29,046 ...and if he'll accept those conditions, do it. " 624 00:55:29,088 --> 00:55:33,259 My total net worth at the time was on the order of $800,000... 625 00:55:33,301 --> 00:55:36,929 ...but I had huge unfulfilled stock options worth millions. 626 00:55:36,971 --> 00:55:40,558 And I was one of the highest-paid executives in the world. 627 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,643 And the future was brilliant. 628 00:55:44,729 --> 00:55:46,772 We had called our children in. 629 00:55:46,814 --> 00:55:49,942 Their life would be totally changed. 630 00:55:50,985 --> 00:55:55,156 The salary of a cabinet secretary then was $25,000 a year. 631 00:55:55,198 --> 00:55:57,200 So we explained to the children... 632 00:55:57,241 --> 00:56:00,369 ...they'd be giving up a few... They could care less. 633 00:56:00,411 --> 00:56:02,455 Marg could care less. 634 00:56:08,711 --> 00:56:10,755 It was snowing. 635 00:56:10,797 --> 00:56:16,010 The Secret Service took me in the house by the back way. 636 00:56:16,052 --> 00:56:19,096 I can still see it. There's a loveseat... 637 00:56:19,138 --> 00:56:22,266 ...two armchairs with a lamp table in between. 638 00:56:22,308 --> 00:56:24,310 Jack Kennedy is sitting in one... 639 00:56:24,352 --> 00:56:26,437 ...and Bobby Kennedy's sitting in the other. 640 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,609 " Mr. President, it's absurd. I'm not qualified. " 641 00:56:32,652 --> 00:56:33,694 " Look, Bob... " 642 00:56:34,737 --> 00:56:37,865 He said, " I don't think there's any school for presidents either. 643 00:56:40,993 --> 00:56:43,079 Let's announce it now. I'll write the announcement. " 644 00:56:44,122 --> 00:56:47,208 So he wrote out the announcement, we walk out the front door. 645 00:56:47,250 --> 00:56:51,420 All of these television cameras and press, till hell wouldn't have it. 646 00:56:52,463 --> 00:56:53,506 That's how Marg learned I had accepted. 647 00:56:54,549 --> 00:56:56,634 It was on television, live. 648 00:56:57,677 --> 00:57:00,805 All right, why don't we do some pictures afterwards. 649 00:57:02,890 --> 00:57:04,934 I've asked Robert McNamara... 650 00:57:04,976 --> 00:57:09,105 ...to assume the responsibilities of secretary of defense. 651 00:57:09,147 --> 00:57:13,317 And I'm glad and happy to say that he has accepted this responsibility. 652 00:57:13,359 --> 00:57:16,446 Mr. McNamara leaves the presidency of the Ford company... 653 00:57:17,488 --> 00:57:19,574 ...at great personal sacrifice. 654 00:57:20,616 --> 00:57:22,702 That's the way it began. 655 00:57:25,830 --> 00:57:28,416 You know, it was a traumatic period. 656 00:57:28,458 --> 00:57:31,002 My wife probably got ulcers from it... 657 00:57:31,043 --> 00:57:34,172 ...may even ultimately have died from the stress. My son got ulcers. 658 00:57:34,213 --> 00:57:36,257 It was very traumatic but... 659 00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:40,428 ...they were some of the best years of our life... 660 00:57:40,470 --> 00:57:43,556 ...and all members of my family benefited from it. 661 00:57:43,598 --> 00:57:45,641 It was terrific. 662 00:57:57,069 --> 00:57:59,113 October 2nd. 663 00:57:59,155 --> 00:58:02,283 I had returned from Vietnam. 664 00:58:03,326 --> 00:58:07,497 At that time, we had 16,000 military advisors. 665 00:58:09,582 --> 00:58:13,753 I recommended to President Kennedy and to the Security Council... 666 00:58:13,795 --> 00:58:16,881 ...that we establish a plan and an objective... 667 00:58:16,923 --> 00:58:20,009 ...of removing all of them within two years. 668 00:58:56,504 --> 00:59:00,675 Kennedy announced we were going to pull out all our military advisors... 669 00:59:00,716 --> 00:59:04,846 ...by the end of '65, going to take 1000 out at the end of '63, and we did. 670 00:59:06,931 --> 00:59:11,102 But there was a coup in South Vietnam. 671 00:59:13,187 --> 00:59:15,273 Diem was overthrown... 672 00:59:16,274 --> 00:59:18,359 ...and he and his brother were killed. 673 00:59:20,445 --> 00:59:22,530 I was present with the President... 674 00:59:23,573 --> 00:59:26,701 ...when together we received information of that coup. 675 00:59:26,742 --> 00:59:28,786 I've never seen him... 676 00:59:29,829 --> 00:59:32,957 ...more upset. He totally blanched. 677 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,171 Kennedy and I had tremendous problems with Diem, but my God... 678 00:59:38,212 --> 00:59:40,256 ...he was the authority. He was the head of state. 679 00:59:41,299 --> 00:59:44,385 And he was overthrown by a military coup. 680 00:59:44,427 --> 00:59:47,555 And Kennedy knew and I knew, that to some degree... 681 00:59:47,597 --> 00:59:50,683 ...the U.S. Government was responsible for that. 682 01:00:03,196 --> 01:00:07,325 I was in my office in the Pentagon... 683 01:00:07,366 --> 01:00:11,537 ...when the telephone rang and it was Bobby. 684 01:00:12,580 --> 01:00:15,708 The President had been shot in Dallas. 685 01:00:19,879 --> 01:00:23,007 Perhaps 45 minutes later, Bobby called again... 686 01:00:23,049 --> 01:00:25,092 ...and said the president was dead. 687 01:00:27,178 --> 01:00:30,306 Jackie would like me to come out to the hospital. 688 01:00:31,349 --> 01:00:34,477 We took the body to the White House about whatever it was, 4 a. M... 689 01:00:34,519 --> 01:00:38,648 ...and called the superintendent of Arlington Cemetery. 690 01:00:38,689 --> 01:00:40,691 And he and I... 691 01:00:43,820 --> 01:00:46,948 ...walked over those grounds. 692 01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:53,204 They're hauntingly beautiful grounds. 693 01:00:53,246 --> 01:00:55,248 White crosses, row and row. 694 01:00:55,289 --> 01:00:59,460 And finally I thought I'd found the exact spot... 695 01:00:59,502 --> 01:01:01,546 ...the most beautiful spot in the cemetery. 696 01:01:03,631 --> 01:01:04,674 I called Jackie at the White House... 697 01:01:05,716 --> 01:01:08,845 ...and asked her to come out there. She immediately accepted. 698 01:01:08,886 --> 01:01:10,930 And that's where the president is buried today. 699 01:01:11,973 --> 01:01:17,186 A park service ranger came up to me and said that he... 700 01:01:19,272 --> 01:01:21,357 He had... 701 01:01:23,443 --> 01:01:27,613 ...escorted President Kennedy on a tour of those grounds... 702 01:01:27,655 --> 01:01:29,198 ...a few weeks before. 703 01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:30,741 And Kennedy said... 704 01:01:31,784 --> 01:01:34,912 ...that was the most beautiful spot in Washington. 705 01:01:34,954 --> 01:01:36,998 That's where he's buried. 706 01:01:48,468 --> 01:01:50,553 I will do my best. 707 01:01:51,596 --> 01:01:55,224 That is all I can do. 708 01:01:55,266 --> 01:01:58,895 I ask for your help... 709 01:01:58,936 --> 01:02:00,980 ...and God's. 710 01:04:48,773 --> 01:04:50,775 Make no bones of this. 711 01:04:50,817 --> 01:04:53,945 Don't try to sweep this under the rug. 712 01:04:53,986 --> 01:04:58,116 We are at war in Vietnam. 713 01:05:02,286 --> 01:05:03,287 And yet the president... 714 01:05:03,329 --> 01:05:07,458 ...and his secretary of defense continues to mislead... 715 01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:12,713 ...and misinform the American people, and enough of it's gone by. 716 01:05:37,738 --> 01:05:39,782 On August 2nd... 717 01:05:39,824 --> 01:05:42,952 ...the destroyer Maddox reported it was attacked... 718 01:05:42,994 --> 01:05:46,038 ...by a North Vietnamese patrol boat. 719 01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,709 It was an act of aggression against us. We were in international waters. 720 01:05:49,750 --> 01:05:53,379 I sent officials from the Defense Department out and we recovered... 721 01:05:53,421 --> 01:05:56,507 ...pieces of shells that were clearly identified... 722 01:05:56,549 --> 01:05:58,593 ...as North Vietnamese from the Maddox's deck. 723 01:05:59,635 --> 01:06:01,721 So there was no question in my mind that it had occurred. 724 01:06:01,762 --> 01:06:04,849 But, in any event, we didn't respond. 725 01:06:05,892 --> 01:06:07,935 And it was very difficult. 726 01:06:07,977 --> 01:06:10,021 It was difficult for the president. 727 01:06:10,062 --> 01:06:13,191 There were very, very senior people, in uniform and out, who said: 728 01:06:13,232 --> 01:06:16,235 " My God, this president is... " 729 01:06:16,277 --> 01:06:19,405 They didn't use the word "coward," but in effect... 730 01:06:19,447 --> 01:06:22,533 ..." He's not protecting the national interest. " 731 01:06:34,003 --> 01:06:38,174 Two days later the Maddox and the Turner Joy, two destroyers... 732 01:06:38,216 --> 01:06:40,259 ...reported they were attacked. 733 01:06:49,644 --> 01:06:52,772 There were sonar soundings. Torpedoes had been detected. 734 01:06:52,814 --> 01:06:55,900 Other indications of attack from patrol boats. 735 01:06:56,943 --> 01:07:01,114 We spent 10 hours that day trying to find out what the hell had happened. 736 01:07:02,156 --> 01:07:06,327 At one point the commander said, "We're not certain of the attack. " 737 01:07:06,369 --> 01:07:08,371 Another point they said, "We're positive. " 738 01:07:08,412 --> 01:07:10,498 Then finally, late in the day, Admiral Sharp said: 739 01:07:10,540 --> 01:07:13,626 "Yes, we're certain it happened. " 740 01:07:14,669 --> 01:07:18,798 So I reported this to Johnson, and as a result... 741 01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:24,053 ...there were bombing attacks on targets in North Vietnam. 742 01:07:37,567 --> 01:07:40,653 Johnson said, "We may have to escalate. 743 01:07:40,695 --> 01:07:43,823 I'm not gonna do it without Congressional authority. " 744 01:07:43,865 --> 01:07:46,909 And he put forward a resolution, the language of which... 745 01:07:46,951 --> 01:07:52,165 ...gave complete authority to the president to take the nation to war: 746 01:07:52,206 --> 01:07:55,293 The Tonkin Gulf Resolution. 747 01:07:57,378 --> 01:08:01,549 Now, let me go back to the August 4th attack. 748 01:09:08,241 --> 01:09:13,412 It was just confusion. And events afterwards showed... 749 01:09:13,454 --> 01:09:17,625 ...that our judgment that we'd been attacked that day was wrong. 750 01:09:19,710 --> 01:09:20,753 It didn't happen. 751 01:09:24,924 --> 01:09:30,138 And the judgment that we'd been attacked on August 2nd... 752 01:09:30,179 --> 01:09:33,266 ...which we'd made, was right. We had been. 753 01:09:33,307 --> 01:09:36,394 Although that was disputed at the time. 754 01:09:37,436 --> 01:09:40,523 So we were right once and wrong once. 755 01:09:40,565 --> 01:09:43,693 Ultimately, President Johnson authorized bombing in response... 756 01:09:44,735 --> 01:09:46,779 ...to what he thought had been the second attack. 757 01:09:46,821 --> 01:09:50,992 It hadn't occurred, but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making here. 758 01:09:51,033 --> 01:09:54,120 He authorized the attack on the assumption it had occurred. 759 01:09:56,205 --> 01:09:59,333 And his belief that it was a conscious decision... 760 01:10:00,376 --> 01:10:03,504 ...by the North Vietnamese political and military leaders... 761 01:10:03,546 --> 01:10:06,632 ...to escalate the conflict... 762 01:10:07,675 --> 01:10:11,846 ...and an indication they would not stop short of winning. 763 01:10:16,017 --> 01:10:18,060 We were wrong. 764 01:10:18,102 --> 01:10:23,316 But we had in our minds a mindset that led to that action. 765 01:10:24,358 --> 01:10:26,402 And it carried such heavy costs. 766 01:10:36,829 --> 01:10:42,043 We see incorrectly, or we see only half of the story at times. 767 01:10:43,085 --> 01:10:47,256 - We see what we want to believe. - You're absolutely right. 768 01:10:49,342 --> 01:10:51,427 Belief and seeing. 769 01:10:52,470 --> 01:10:54,555 They're both often wrong. 770 01:11:00,812 --> 01:11:06,025 We Americans know, although others appear to forget... 771 01:11:06,067 --> 01:11:09,153 ...the risk of spreading conflict. 772 01:11:10,196 --> 01:11:13,324 We still seek no wider war. 773 01:11:34,178 --> 01:11:36,222 We introduced " Rolling Thunder"... 774 01:11:36,264 --> 01:11:41,477 ...which, over the years, became a very, very heavy bombing program. 775 01:11:41,519 --> 01:11:44,605 Two to three times as many bombs as were dropped... 776 01:11:44,647 --> 01:11:47,733 ...on Western Europe during all of World War II. 777 01:12:06,461 --> 01:12:09,547 This is not primarily a military problem. 778 01:12:09,589 --> 01:12:14,802 It's a battle for the hearts and minds of the people of South Vietnam. 779 01:12:15,845 --> 01:12:22,101 As a prerequisite, we must be able to guarantee their physical security. 780 01:15:41,175 --> 01:15:44,303 It was announced today that total American casualties in Vietnam... 781 01:15:44,345 --> 01:15:49,475 ...now number 4877 including 748 killed. 782 01:15:49,517 --> 01:15:54,730 Secretary of Defense McNamara, on each of his seven trips to Vietnam... 783 01:15:54,772 --> 01:15:57,859 ...has found some positive aspect of the course of the war. 784 01:15:57,900 --> 01:16:00,945 The most vivid impression I'm bringing back is... 785 01:16:01,988 --> 01:16:03,030 ...that we've stopped losing the war. 786 01:16:04,073 --> 01:16:07,201 The North Vietnamese, we believe, have nine regiments of their army... 787 01:16:08,244 --> 01:16:12,373 Some of the men had a little training in a park in Kentucky before coming. 788 01:16:12,415 --> 01:16:16,586 But it didn't prepare them for thick et of trees, spiked vines, thorn bushes... 789 01:16:16,627 --> 01:16:21,299 ...almost perpendicular cliffs, 90-degree temperatures, insects... 790 01:16:21,340 --> 01:16:25,928 This has changed from a nasty little war to a nasty middle-sized war. 791 01:16:25,970 --> 01:16:31,184 The Vietnamese are still doing most of the fighting and most of the dying... 792 01:16:32,226 --> 01:16:35,313 ...but week after week, American casualty figures go up. 793 01:16:35,354 --> 01:16:40,568 Now, America wins the wars that she undertakes. Make no mistake about it. 794 01:16:41,611 --> 01:16:46,783 And we have declared war on tyranny and aggression. 795 01:16:46,824 --> 01:16:50,995 If this little nation goes down the drain and can't maintain independence... 796 01:16:51,037 --> 01:16:55,166 ...ask yourself what's gonna happen to all the other little nations. 797 01:17:35,790 --> 01:17:37,875 Let me go back one moment. 798 01:17:38,918 --> 01:17:43,047 In the Cuban Missile Crisis, at the end... 799 01:17:43,089 --> 01:17:49,345 ...I think we did put ourselves in the skin of the Soviets. 800 01:17:50,388 --> 01:17:55,601 In the case of Vietnam, we didn't know them well enough to empathize. 801 01:17:55,643 --> 01:17:58,729 And there was total misunderstanding as a result. 802 01:17:59,772 --> 01:18:04,986 They believed we had simply replaced the French as a colonial power... 803 01:18:05,027 --> 01:18:10,199 ...and we were seeking to subject South and North Vietnam... 804 01:18:10,241 --> 01:18:15,413 ...to our colonial interests, which was absolutely absurd. 805 01:18:15,455 --> 01:18:20,626 And we, we saw Vietnam as an element of the Cold War. 806 01:18:20,668 --> 01:18:24,797 Not what they saw it as, a civil war. 807 01:18:36,267 --> 01:18:39,395 There aren't many examples... 808 01:18:40,438 --> 01:18:44,609 ...in which you bring two former enemies together... 809 01:18:45,651 --> 01:18:49,781 ...at the highest levels, and discuss what might have been. 810 01:18:51,866 --> 01:18:55,995 I formed the hypothesis that each of us could have... 811 01:18:56,037 --> 01:19:00,208 ...achieved our objectives without the terrible loss of life. 812 01:19:01,250 --> 01:19:05,421 And I wanted to test that by going to Vietnam. 813 01:19:07,507 --> 01:19:10,635 The former foreign minister of Vietnam... 814 01:19:11,677 --> 01:19:15,848 ...a wonderful man named Thach said, "You're totally wrong. 815 01:19:16,891 --> 01:19:21,062 We were fighting for independence. You were fighting to enslave us. " 816 01:19:23,147 --> 01:19:26,275 We almost came to blows. That was noon on the first day. 817 01:19:28,361 --> 01:19:32,532 " Do you mean to say it was not a tragedy for you... 818 01:19:32,573 --> 01:19:37,703 ...when you lost 3,400,000 Vietnamese killed... 819 01:19:37,745 --> 01:19:41,916 ...which on our population base is the equivalent of 27 million Americans? 820 01:19:41,958 --> 01:19:42,959 What did you accomplish? 821 01:19:44,001 --> 01:19:47,130 You didn't get more than we were willing to give at the start. 822 01:19:47,171 --> 01:19:50,258 You could've had the whole damn thing: Independence, unification. " 823 01:19:52,343 --> 01:19:54,428 " Mr. McNamara, you must never have read a history book. 824 01:19:55,471 --> 01:20:00,685 If you had, you'd know we weren't pawns of the Chinese or the Russians. 825 01:20:00,726 --> 01:20:02,728 Didn't you know that? 826 01:20:02,770 --> 01:20:07,984 Don't you understand that we've been fighting the Chinese for 1000 years? 827 01:20:08,025 --> 01:20:12,113 We were fighting for independence, and we'd fight to the last man. 828 01:20:12,155 --> 01:20:13,114 We were determined to... 829 01:20:13,156 --> 01:20:17,326 ...and no amount of bombing or U.S. Pressure would've ever stopped us. " 830 01:20:35,052 --> 01:20:38,181 What makes us omniscient? 831 01:20:40,266 --> 01:20:42,351 Have we a record of omniscience? 832 01:20:47,565 --> 01:20:50,693 We are the strongest nation in the world today. 833 01:20:51,736 --> 01:20:53,780 I do not believe we should ever... 834 01:20:53,821 --> 01:20:57,992 ...apply that economic, political or military power unilaterally. 835 01:21:00,077 --> 01:21:05,291 If we had followed that rule in Vietnam, we wouldn't have been there. 836 01:21:09,462 --> 01:21:12,548 None of our allies supported us. 837 01:21:12,590 --> 01:21:15,718 Not Japan, not Germany, not Britain or France. 838 01:21:19,889 --> 01:21:24,018 If we can't persuade nations with comparable values... 839 01:21:24,060 --> 01:21:29,273 ...of the merit of our cause, we'd better re- examine our reasoning. 840 01:21:37,573 --> 01:21:42,245 Americans suffered the heaviest casualties of the war last week. 841 01:21:42,286 --> 01:21:46,958 543 killed in action. Another 1247 were wounded and hospitalized. 842 01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:52,171 The deaths raise the U.S. Total in the war so far to 18, 239. 843 01:21:52,213 --> 01:21:56,342 South Vietnamese put their losses for the week at 522 killed. 844 01:21:56,384 --> 01:21:58,386 Communist losses were not reported. 845 01:21:58,427 --> 01:22:02,598 Contributing to those casualties has been the Communist bombardment... 846 01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,642 ...of the Marine outpost at Khe Sanh. 847 01:22:04,684 --> 01:22:08,855 There, the North Vietnamese have been tightening their ring around... 848 01:22:09,897 --> 01:22:11,983 The military expects a full-scale assault. 849 01:22:39,093 --> 01:22:42,180 To what extent did you feel that you were the author of stuff... 850 01:22:42,221 --> 01:22:47,435 ...or that you were an instrument of things outside of your control? 851 01:22:47,477 --> 01:22:50,521 Well, I don't think I felt either. 852 01:22:50,563 --> 01:22:55,777 I just felt that I was serving at the request of a president... 853 01:22:55,818 --> 01:22:57,779 ...who'd been elected by the American people. 854 01:22:57,820 --> 01:23:02,992 And it was my responsibility to try to help him... 855 01:23:03,034 --> 01:23:08,247 ...to carry out the office as he believed was in the interest of our people. 856 01:23:37,443 --> 01:23:43,699 What is morally appropriate in a wartime environment? 857 01:23:48,913 --> 01:23:52,041 Let me give you an illustration. 858 01:23:58,297 --> 01:24:00,383 While I was secretary... 859 01:24:01,425 --> 01:24:05,596 ...we used what's called "Agent Orange" in Vietnam. 860 01:24:05,638 --> 01:24:09,767 A chemical that strips leaves off of trees. 861 01:24:10,810 --> 01:24:16,023 After the war, it is claimed that that was a toxic chemical... 862 01:24:16,065 --> 01:24:19,110 ...and it killed many individuals... 863 01:24:19,152 --> 01:24:23,281 ...soldiers and civilians exposed to it. 864 01:24:24,323 --> 01:24:30,580 Were those who issued the approval to use Agent Orange criminals? 865 01:24:30,621 --> 01:24:33,708 Were they committing a crime against humanity? 866 01:24:35,793 --> 01:24:37,837 Let's look at the law. 867 01:24:37,879 --> 01:24:40,965 Now, what kind of law do we have that says... 868 01:24:41,007 --> 01:24:45,178 ...these chemicals are acceptable in war and these chemicals are not. 869 01:24:45,219 --> 01:24:47,221 We don't have clear definitions of that kind. 870 01:24:47,263 --> 01:24:53,519 I never in the world would have authorized an illegal action. 871 01:24:54,562 --> 01:24:57,648 I'm not really sure I authorized Agent Orange, I don't remember it. 872 01:24:57,690 --> 01:25:02,904 But it certainly occurred, the use of it occurred while I was secretary. 873 01:25:21,672 --> 01:25:24,801 Norman Morrison was a Quaker. 874 01:25:25,843 --> 01:25:28,971 He was opposed to war, the violence of war, the killing. 875 01:25:30,014 --> 01:25:36,270 He came to the Pentagon, doused himself with gasoline. 876 01:25:38,356 --> 01:25:40,441 Burned himself to death below my office. 877 01:25:44,570 --> 01:25:47,698 He held a child in his arms, his daughter. 878 01:25:48,741 --> 01:25:52,370 Passers-by shouted, "Save the child!" He threw the child... 879 01:25:52,411 --> 01:25:56,040 ...out of his arms, and the child lived and is alive today. 880 01:25:56,082 --> 01:26:00,169 His wife issued a very moving statement: 881 01:26:00,211 --> 01:26:05,424 " Human beings must stop killing other human beings. " 882 01:26:05,466 --> 01:26:07,510 And that's a belief that I shared. 883 01:26:08,553 --> 01:26:11,681 I shared it then and I believe it even more strongly today. 884 01:26:12,723 --> 01:26:16,894 How much evil must we do in order to do good? 885 01:26:17,937 --> 01:26:21,065 We have certain ideals, certain responsibilities. 886 01:26:22,108 --> 01:26:28,364 Recognize that at times you will have to engage in evil, but minimize it. 887 01:26:33,578 --> 01:26:37,748 I remember reading that General Sherman, in the Civil War... 888 01:26:37,790 --> 01:26:41,919 ...the mayor of Atlanta pleaded with him to save the city. 889 01:26:41,961 --> 01:26:44,005 And Sherman essentially said to the mayor... 890 01:26:45,047 --> 01:26:48,176 ...just before he torched it and burned it down: 891 01:26:48,217 --> 01:26:52,346 "War is cruel. War is cruelty. " 892 01:26:53,389 --> 01:26:55,433 That was the way LeMay felt. 893 01:26:55,475 --> 01:26:57,560 He was trying to save the country. 894 01:26:58,603 --> 01:27:01,689 He was trying to save our nation. 895 01:27:01,731 --> 01:27:07,945 And in the process, he was prepared to do whatever killing was necessary. 896 01:27:11,073 --> 01:27:17,330 It's a very, very difficult position for sensitive human beings to be in. 897 01:27:17,371 --> 01:27:20,458 Morrison was one of those. I think I was. 898 01:27:27,757 --> 01:27:34,013 50,000 people came to Washington to demonstrate against the war. 899 01:27:37,141 --> 01:27:40,269 About 20,000 of them marched on the Pentagon. 900 01:27:45,483 --> 01:27:50,696 The Pentagon is a very, very difficult building to defend. 901 01:27:50,738 --> 01:27:54,867 We placed troops carrying rifles around it. 902 01:27:54,909 --> 01:27:57,995 U.S. Marshals in front of the soldiers. 903 01:28:00,081 --> 01:28:04,252 But I told the president, not a rifle would be loaded... 904 01:28:04,293 --> 01:28:06,337 ...without my personal permission. 905 01:28:06,379 --> 01:28:08,422 And I wasn't gonna grant it. 906 01:28:43,833 --> 01:28:49,046 What effect did all of this dissent have on your thinking? 907 01:28:49,088 --> 01:28:52,175 I mean, Norman Morrison is '65. This is '67. 908 01:28:52,216 --> 01:28:56,304 Well, it was a very tense period. 909 01:28:56,345 --> 01:29:00,516 Very tense period for my family, which I don't want to discuss. 910 01:29:03,644 --> 01:29:07,815 How was your thinking changing during this period? 911 01:29:08,858 --> 01:29:11,944 I don't think my thinking was changing. 912 01:29:11,986 --> 01:29:17,200 We were in the Cold War. And this was a Cold War... 913 01:29:18,242 --> 01:29:20,328 ...activity. 914 01:30:09,293 --> 01:30:14,507 Some commentators have said the war is turning into a kind of stalemate. 915 01:30:14,549 --> 01:30:17,593 No, no. I think on the contrary... 916 01:30:17,635 --> 01:30:19,720 ...as General Westmoreland has pointed out... 917 01:30:20,763 --> 01:30:23,891 ...in recent weeks in Saigon, the military operations... 918 01:30:24,934 --> 01:30:28,062 ...the large-unit military operations continue to... 919 01:30:28,104 --> 01:30:31,190 ...show very substantial progress. 920 01:30:40,575 --> 01:30:44,745 One of the lessons I learned early on: Never say never. 921 01:30:44,787 --> 01:30:46,831 Never, never, never. 922 01:30:47,874 --> 01:30:49,959 Never say never. 923 01:30:51,002 --> 01:30:53,045 And secondly... 924 01:30:53,087 --> 01:30:56,215 ...never answer the question that is asked of you. 925 01:30:57,258 --> 01:31:02,472 Answer the question that you wish had been asked of you. 926 01:31:03,514 --> 01:31:06,642 And quite frankly, I follow that rule. 927 01:31:07,685 --> 01:31:09,771 It's a very good rule. 928 01:31:19,113 --> 01:31:25,369 When you talk about the responsibility for something like the Vietnam War... 929 01:31:28,498 --> 01:31:29,540 ...whose responsibility is it? 930 01:31:30,583 --> 01:31:31,626 It's the president's responsibility. 931 01:31:33,711 --> 01:31:35,755 I don't want to fail to recognize... 932 01:31:35,797 --> 01:31:39,926 ...the tremendous contribution I think Johnson made to the country. 933 01:31:39,967 --> 01:31:45,181 I don't want to put the responsibility for Vietnam on his shoulders alone... 934 01:31:45,223 --> 01:31:48,267 ...but I do... I am inclined to believe that if Kennedy had lived... 935 01:31:48,309 --> 01:31:52,480 ...he would've made a difference. We wouldn't have had 500,000 men there. 936 01:31:57,693 --> 01:31:59,737 Two very telling photographs. 937 01:31:59,779 --> 01:32:02,907 One of them has Johnson like this: 938 01:32:03,950 --> 01:32:09,163 You can just see him thinking, " My God, I'm in a hell of a mess. 939 01:32:09,205 --> 01:32:11,249 And this guy is trying to tell me to do something... 940 01:32:12,291 --> 01:32:14,377 ...that I know is wrong and I'm not gonna do. 941 01:32:15,419 --> 01:32:17,505 But how the hell am I gonna get out of this?" 942 01:32:18,548 --> 01:32:20,591 The other photograph, you can see me saying: 943 01:32:20,633 --> 01:32:25,847 "Jesus Christ. I love this man, I respect him, but he's totally wrong. 944 01:32:25,888 --> 01:32:27,932 What am I gonna do?" 945 01:32:28,975 --> 01:32:33,146 Johnson couldn't persuade me, and I couldn't persuade him. 946 01:32:35,231 --> 01:32:38,359 I had this enormous respect and affection, loyalty... 947 01:32:39,402 --> 01:32:41,446 ...to both Kennedy and Johnson. 948 01:32:41,487 --> 01:32:46,617 But at the end, Johnson and I found ourselves poles apart. 949 01:32:46,659 --> 01:32:49,787 And I said to a very close and dear friend of mine, Kay Graham... 950 01:32:51,873 --> 01:32:57,086 " Even to this day, Kay, I don't know whether I quit or was fired. " 951 01:32:57,128 --> 01:32:59,172 She said, "You're out of your mind. You were fired. " 952 01:33:08,556 --> 01:33:12,727 November 1, 1967. 953 01:33:15,855 --> 01:33:18,441 I presented a memo to Johnson that said: 954 01:33:18,483 --> 01:33:21,068 "The course we're on is totally wrong. 955 01:33:22,111 --> 01:33:24,197 We've gotta change it. 956 01:33:27,325 --> 01:33:30,453 Cut back at what we're doing in Vietnam. 957 01:33:33,581 --> 01:33:36,709 We gotta reduce the casualties," and so on. 958 01:33:39,837 --> 01:33:42,965 It was an extraordinarily controversial memo. 959 01:33:43,007 --> 01:33:46,093 And I took it to him. I delivered it myself. 960 01:33:46,135 --> 01:33:48,137 " Mr. President, nobody has seen this. 961 01:33:48,179 --> 01:33:52,350 Not Dean Rusk, not the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Nobody. " 962 01:33:53,392 --> 01:33:57,563 " I know that it may contain recommendations and statements... 963 01:33:57,605 --> 01:33:59,649 ...that you do not agree with or support. " 964 01:34:04,862 --> 01:34:06,948 I never heard from him. 965 01:34:13,162 --> 01:34:15,248 Something had to give. 966 01:34:21,504 --> 01:34:23,589 There was a rumor I was facing a mental breakdown... 967 01:34:23,631 --> 01:34:26,717 ...I was under such pressure and stress. 968 01:34:29,846 --> 01:34:32,974 I don't think that was the case at all. 969 01:34:37,145 --> 01:34:40,273 But it was a really traumatic departure. 970 01:34:45,486 --> 01:34:47,572 That's the way it ended. 971 01:34:52,785 --> 01:34:54,871 Except for one thing. 972 01:34:56,956 --> 01:35:00,084 He awarded me the Medal of Freedom... 973 01:35:01,127 --> 01:35:04,255 ...in a very beautiful ceremony at the White House. 974 01:35:04,297 --> 01:35:08,426 And he was very, very warm in his comments. 975 01:35:08,468 --> 01:35:12,597 And I became so emotional, I could not... 976 01:35:12,638 --> 01:35:14,682 ...respond. 977 01:35:26,152 --> 01:35:28,237 Mr. President... 978 01:35:29,280 --> 01:35:32,366 ...I cannot find words... 979 01:35:33,409 --> 01:35:36,537 ...to express what lies in my heart today. 980 01:35:39,665 --> 01:35:42,794 And I think I'd better respond on another occasion. 981 01:35:54,263 --> 01:35:56,349 And had I responded, I would have said: 982 01:35:57,391 --> 01:35:59,977 " I know what many of you are thinking. 983 01:36:00,019 --> 01:36:02,563 You're thinking this man is duplicitous. 984 01:36:02,605 --> 01:36:06,776 You're thinking that he has held things close to his chest. 985 01:36:07,819 --> 01:36:09,862 You're thinking that... 986 01:36:09,904 --> 01:36:14,033 ...he did not respond fully... 987 01:36:14,075 --> 01:36:17,203 ...to the desires and wishes of the American people. 988 01:36:17,245 --> 01:36:18,246 I wanna tell you you're wrong. " 989 01:36:19,288 --> 01:36:23,459 Of course he had personal idiosyncrasies. 990 01:36:23,501 --> 01:36:25,503 No question about that. 991 01:36:25,545 --> 01:36:29,715 He didn't accept all the advice he was given. 992 01:36:30,758 --> 01:36:37,014 On several occasions, his associates advised him to be more forthcoming. 993 01:36:37,056 --> 01:36:39,100 He wasn't. 994 01:36:41,185 --> 01:36:44,814 People did not understand there were recommendations and pressures... 995 01:36:44,856 --> 01:36:48,484 ...that would carry the risk of war with China and of nuclear war. 996 01:36:48,526 --> 01:36:51,612 And he was determined to prevent it. 997 01:36:55,741 --> 01:37:01,998 I'm arguing that he had a reason in his mind for doing what he did. 998 01:37:05,126 --> 01:37:08,254 And, of course, shortly after I left... 999 01:37:09,297 --> 01:37:13,468 ...Johnson concluded that he couldn't continue. 1000 01:37:21,809 --> 01:37:25,980 At this point, how many Americans had been killed in Vietnam? 1001 01:37:27,023 --> 01:37:31,194 About 25,000. Less than half... 1002 01:37:32,236 --> 01:37:35,364 ...of the number ultimately killed, 58,000. 1003 01:38:37,885 --> 01:38:43,099 Historians don't really like to deal with counterfactuals... 1004 01:38:43,141 --> 01:38:45,184 ...with what might have been. 1005 01:38:51,441 --> 01:38:53,526 They want to talk about history. 1006 01:38:54,569 --> 01:38:57,697 " How the hell do you know, McNamara, what might have been? 1007 01:38:58,739 --> 01:38:59,782 Who knows?" 1008 01:39:01,868 --> 01:39:03,953 Well, I know certain things. 1009 01:39:13,337 --> 01:39:15,423 What I'm doing is thinking it through with hindsight. 1010 01:39:16,466 --> 01:39:18,551 But you don't have hindsight available at the time. 1011 01:39:19,594 --> 01:39:22,680 I'm very proud of my accomplishments. 1012 01:39:22,722 --> 01:39:27,935 And I'm very sorry that in the process of accomplishment, I've made errors. 1013 01:39:55,004 --> 01:39:58,132 We all make mistakes. 1014 01:39:59,175 --> 01:40:01,260 We know we make mistakes. 1015 01:40:04,388 --> 01:40:07,517 I don't know any military commander who is honest... 1016 01:40:07,558 --> 01:40:10,645 ...who would say he has not made a mistake. 1017 01:40:14,816 --> 01:40:17,944 There's a wonderful phrase: 1018 01:40:17,985 --> 01:40:20,029 "The fog of war. " 1019 01:40:22,115 --> 01:40:24,158 What "the fog of war" means is: 1020 01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:28,371 War is so complex it's beyond the ability of the human mind... 1021 01:40:28,412 --> 01:40:31,499 ...to comprehend all the variables. 1022 01:40:32,542 --> 01:40:37,755 Our judgment, our understanding, are not adequate. 1023 01:40:39,841 --> 01:40:42,969 And we kill people unnecessarily. 1024 01:40:47,140 --> 01:40:52,353 Wilson said, "We won the war to end all wars. " 1025 01:41:01,737 --> 01:41:07,952 I'm not so naive or simplistic to believe we can eliminate war. 1026 01:41:10,037 --> 01:41:13,166 We're not gonna change human nature any time soon. 1027 01:41:23,593 --> 01:41:26,721 It isn't that we aren't rational. We are rational. 1028 01:41:27,764 --> 01:41:29,849 But reason has limits. 1029 01:41:47,575 --> 01:41:52,789 There's a quote from T.S. Eliot that I just love: 1030 01:41:53,831 --> 01:41:56,959 "We shall not cease from exploring... 1031 01:41:58,002 --> 01:42:03,216 ...and at the end of our exploration, we will return to where we started... 1032 01:42:04,258 --> 01:42:07,345 ...and know the place for the first time. " 1033 01:42:07,386 --> 01:42:10,515 Now that's, in a sense, where I'm beginning to be. 1034 01:42:28,241 --> 01:42:31,285 After you left the Johnson administration... 1035 01:42:31,327 --> 01:42:35,498 ...why didn't you speak out against the Vietnam War? 1036 01:42:38,626 --> 01:42:42,755 I'm not going to say any more than I have. 1037 01:42:42,797 --> 01:42:45,925 These are the kinds of questions that get me in trouble. 1038 01:42:46,968 --> 01:42:53,224 You don't know what I know about how inflammatory my words can appear. 1039 01:42:57,395 --> 01:43:01,566 A lot of people misunderstand the war... 1040 01:43:01,607 --> 01:43:03,651 ...misunderstand me. 1041 01:43:05,736 --> 01:43:08,865 A lot of people think I'm a son of a bitch. 1042 01:43:09,907 --> 01:43:13,035 Do you feel in any way responsible for the war? 1043 01:43:13,077 --> 01:43:15,121 Do you feel guilty? 1044 01:43:16,164 --> 01:43:18,249 I don't want to go into further discussion. 1045 01:43:18,291 --> 01:43:21,377 It just opens up more controversy. 1046 01:43:22,420 --> 01:43:24,505 I don't wanna add anything to Vietnam. 1047 01:43:24,547 --> 01:43:26,549 It is so complex that anything I say... 1048 01:43:26,591 --> 01:43:30,762 ...will require additions and qualifications. 1049 01:43:34,932 --> 01:43:38,060 Is it the feeling that you're damned if you do... 1050 01:43:38,102 --> 01:43:40,146 ...and if you don't, no matter what...? 1051 01:43:40,188 --> 01:43:42,231 Yeah, that's right. 1052 01:43:44,317 --> 01:43:48,488 And I would rather be damned if I don't. 1053 01:43:48,905 --> 01:43:53,075 Subtitles by SDI Media Group