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I don't see any reason
to be tasteful about Auschwitz.
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I say to you quite tastelessly
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that more women died on the back seat
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of Senator Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick
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than ever died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz.
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Holocaust denial rests on
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four basic assertions.
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Number one.
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That there was never any systematic
or organized attempt by the Nazis
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to kill all of Europe's Jews.
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Number two.
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That the numbers are far fewer
than five or six million.
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Number three.
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That there were no gas chambers
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or specially built extermination facilities.
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Number four.
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That the Holocaust is therefore a myth
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invented by Jews
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to get themselves financial compensation
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and to further the fortunes
of the State of Israel.
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War, the deniers say, is a bloody business.
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There's nothing special about the Jews,
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they're not unique in their suffering.
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They're just everyday casualties of war.
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What's the fuss?
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Okay, and here's another question,
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how do we know the Holocaust happened?
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Seriously. I'm asking.
How do we prove it?
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Photographic evidence?
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Not one person in this room or outside it
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has ever seen a photograph
of a Jew inside a gas chamber.
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You know why?
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Because the Germans made sure
that none were ever taken.
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00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,604
So how do we know?
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00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:58,482
How do we know that so many were murdered?
36
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So what's the proof?
Where's the proof?
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How strong is it?
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00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,202
Good morning on Veterans Day,
39
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,044
ceremonies being held today
40
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,776
here in Washington and across the country.
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00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,404
Here, Mutt.
I'm Bob Edwards.
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00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,562
Today is Friday, November 11th,
43
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,211
and this is NPR's Morning Edition.
44
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,760
- Morning, Professor Lipstadt.
- Good morning.
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00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,808
Good morning, Professor.
Morning.
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- Morning.
- Morning.
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Speech. Two copies
with corrections.
48
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,050
And Jamie called from NBC.
49
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,242
They still want the interview about the book.
50
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,051
These go back to the library. You make copies.
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00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,849
All right.
I'll take this.
52
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:35,646
And he needs water.
53
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,364
- You want a hand with that?
- I'm okay.
54
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,522
And Atlanta weather on this Veterans Day,
55
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mostly sunny with clouds creeping in
56
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,409
by the end of the afternoon.
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00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:47,806
I do a lot of these events.
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So if you could put a table at the back.
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Right by the door, uh, perfect as they leave.
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00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:53,730
Oh, I certainly will.
61
00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,247
Any writer will tell you, at these events
62
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you always sell 37 books.
63
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No matter what size, uh, the audience.
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If it's 50 people, 37 books
65
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and I'm wondering, you know, is it fixed?
Do you think it's fixed?
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00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,331
Thank you so much, Deborah.
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But I think we better get things started, yeah?
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Everyone, it is my pleasure to introduce
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00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,084
the holder of the Dorot Chair
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00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:24,844
in Jewish and Holocaust Studies
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00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,445
at Emory University
72
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,490
and the author of Denying the Holocaust:
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The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory,
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00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,245
Deborah Lipstadt.
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Whatever the reasons that people become deniers,
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00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:44,605
when you look closely,
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00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,365
they often have an agenda
which they won't admit to.
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So denial is a pick to undo the lock
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to open the door to something else.
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Yes.
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00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,208
Somebody told me you don't debate with people
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who say the Holocaust didn't happen.
83
00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:58,761
Uh, that is correct.
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00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:01,844
Like I don't debate with
people who say Elvis is alive.
85
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,201
Talking to people you don't agree with,
86
00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:07,362
that's democracy, isn't it?
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00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,370
It's cowardly not to talk to them.
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00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,204
Are you calling me a coward?
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00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:12,850
Well...
No, no, listen.
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00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:14,809
I... I don't see it that way.
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00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,121
You can have opinions about the Holocaust.
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00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,441
You can argue about why it happened
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00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:20,646
and how it happened.
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00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,963
But what I won't do is meet with anyone, anyone,
95
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,008
who says it didn't happen.
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00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,006
Because the Holocaust
happened. It happened.
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00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,244
And that isn't opinion.
That's fact.
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00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:33,970
And I won't debate fact.
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00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,090
In your book, why do you continually
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00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:37,924
denigrate the work of David Irving?
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00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,929
He's a scholar.
He's discovered all sorts of
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00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,968
primary sources no one else knew about.
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00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:43,280
Well, to be honest,
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00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,409
I don't think I do denigrate him.
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Actually, I don't really
think about him that much.
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00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,529
I don't think he's worth my time.
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Yes, sir.
Gentleman in the back.
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Professor Lipstadt.
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00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,247
Uh, let me reveal something to you, Professor.
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I am that David Irving about
whom you have been so rude.
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00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,844
Yes, yes, lam he.
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00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,125
And it puzzles me
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00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,766
that you think yourself qualified to attack me,
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00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,287
given that I have 30 years'
experience in the archives
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00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:15,736
and my books have been published by
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00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,286
some of the greatest publishing
houses in the world.
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00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,125
Viking Press, William Morrow,
E.P. Dutton.
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00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,690
I have to conclude
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that the reason you don't engage
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00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,211
with people you disagree with
121
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,363
is because you can't and
you might learn some facts.
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Facts, Miss Lipstadt,
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which don't suit your opinions.
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Well? Well?
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00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,123
Mr. Irving,
I will not debate you.
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00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,362
Not here. Not now. Not ever.
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00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,249
So if you would please just sit down
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00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:42,810
and you can go and speak
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00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,325
in another room at another time.
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00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,010
You want gullible students to believe
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00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,730
that there are mounds of documents
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which prove a Holocaust.
133
00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,722
You even said that Hitler ordered it.
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00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,727
Well, I've got $1,000
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00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,531
in my pocket.
Yes, $1,000,
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00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,126
and I'm Willing to give that $1,000
137
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,806
to anyone, anyone, who can snow me a document
138
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,526
that proves that Hitler ordered
the killing of the Jews.
139
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,444
Here it is.
This is not your Q&A.
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00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,329
You can go and speak somewhere else.
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00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,888
Who pays for you to write your books?
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00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,530
I need someone from security.
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00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,576
Who is it that finances
all your expensive trips...
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00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,968
Sit down. Mr. Irving!
Sit down or leave.
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00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:22,881
Can you deal with this guy?
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00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:24,841
Okay, step in.
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00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,890
Ah, Miss Lipstadt not only won't debate.
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00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,720
She calls security to stop me from debating.
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00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,816
No, leave it. Leave it. GUARD:
I'm gonna need you to sit down.
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00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,330
So be it.
If anybody wants,
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00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,243
I shall be signing my books after the event.
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My books, they're free.
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Come and get one.
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00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,047
Thank you.
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00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,282
$1,000! $1,000!
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00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,124
An example of real history.
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00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:51,804
I hope you find it edifying.
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Real history opposed to
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manufactured history and sentimentalized.
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00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,480
Ah.
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00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,566
Today I've heard you telling lies to students.
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00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,096
...speak in another room
at another time.
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00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,043
You want gullible students to believe...
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00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,326
Perfect.
165
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,080
Deborah, I'm glad you've called.
166
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,400
It's wonderful to hear from you.
167
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,564
I'm guessing you got our letter.
168
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,244
It's why I'm calling.
169
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,176
Irving's just sent us notice of a
suit to be filed in the High Court
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00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,123
because we've failed to withdraw the book.
171
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:38,927
The High Court?
The High Court in London.
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00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,331
It's a libel suit.
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00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,246
He's saying you're part of a
concerted worldwide conspiracy
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00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,085
to rob him of his reputation
as a professional historian
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and thereby of his livelihood.
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I wish.
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00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:52,686
So what's the next step?
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00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,524
Next step is, you tell us if you want to fight.
179
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,169
...a throng
with 400 skinheads, Neo-Nazi's
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00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,886
and supporters of
extreme right-wing groups.
181
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,167
The British historian David Irving,
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00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,527
speaking in German, addressed the rally...
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00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,089
...telling
them that Germans no longer
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00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,810
had anything to be ashamed of.
185
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,491
Praising Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess,
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00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:56,245
as a German hero and a martyr.
187
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,603
According to the evidence I've seen,
188
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,680
there were no gas chambers anywhere at Auschwitz.
189
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,447
I'm dealing with Auschwitz
because it's the capital ship
190
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,363
of the whole Holocaust campaign.
191
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,602
Now if Auschwitz sinks, and it is, believe me,
192
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:19,364
a very leaky vessel indeed,
193
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,411
then the whole Holocaust campaign is in doubt.
194
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,843
- I've decided. I'm taking him on.
- What?
195
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:33,531
Why are you letting him get to you?
196
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,046
Nine-tenths of these things
don't even get to court.
197
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,691
They don't get to court 'cause people settle.
I can't settle.
198
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,723
The man's a liar.
Someone needs to say so.
199
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,246
What I don't get, why has he chosen you?
200
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:44,401
Know what I think?
201
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,726
I have two essential
qualifications for David Irving.
202
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,529
I'm a woman and I'm a Jew.
203
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,729
He gets more bang for his buck.
204
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,531
So this is your book on denial he's objecting to?
205
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,443
Correct.
Did you even mention Irving?
206
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,806
What did you say about him?
207
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,243
I think I called him a Hitler partisan
208
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:01,526
who distorted evidence
209
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,490
in order to reach historically
untenable conclusions.
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00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,804
Okay, well, maybe you better
get yourself lawyered up.
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00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:22,560
Here you go.
212
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,085
You must be Anthony Julius.
213
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,685
And you must be Deborah Lipstadt.
214
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,685
Please.
215
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,566
Good of you to come all this way.
It's my pleasure.
216
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,680
And it's nice to combine
our meeting with a lecture.
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00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,326
Anti-Semitism
in the poetry of T.S. Eliot.
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00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,246
Yes, correct.
219
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,169
I'm looking forward to hearing you speak.
220
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,682
You're not afraid of taking on the big boys.
221
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:43,921
I try not to be.
222
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,081
In fact I was wondering
223
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,407
if it was my interest
in anti-Semitism
224
00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,960
which made you consider me to represent you.
225
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,765
In fact not.
Or if it was the Diana thing.
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00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,763
Uh, no.
227
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:56,964
Someone I know said to me,
228
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,280
'You need a junkyard dog
229
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,169
'and in England
that's Anthony Julius.'
230
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,083
Right, right.
Junkyard dog...
231
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,049
Oh, someone who's gonna be ferocious in court.
232
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,122
Oh, well, I'm afraid I don't appear in court.
233
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,328
I prepare the case, I don't present it.
234
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,289
In Britain, solicitor and barrister
235
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:11,720
are two quite different functions.
236
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,850
And, uh, you mentioned
'the Diana thing.' I...
237
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:17,771
I don't know what that is.
238
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,360
Diana is the...
ls the Princess of Wales.
239
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,044
Well, yes, I know that.
240
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,600
I just don't know what your connection to her is.
241
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:26,409
Uh, no, just, um,
242
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,327
that Diana needed a divorce and I acted for her.
243
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:34,085
You represented her?
244
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:35,487
Yes, yes.
245
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,245
But I thought you did defamation.
246
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:39,731
Well, you're quite right.
I... I...
247
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,245
I put that point to Diana herself.
248
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,130
I said, 'I've never handled
a divorce case before.'
249
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,646
And she said,
'That's all right, Mr. Julius.
250
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,363
'I've never been
divorced before.'
251
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,560
Interesting woman.
252
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:55,921
Deborah, I have to warn you
253
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,526
that there's a reason why he's
bringing the case in London.
254
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,841
I wondered about that.
Thank you very much.
255
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,206
You're welcome.
256
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,363
It's to his advantage.
257
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,566
Over here in America,
258
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,608
uh, if you're accused of defaming someone,
259
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,081
then it's up to them to prove
that what you said is untrue.
260
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,531
In the UK, the reverse is true.
261
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,762
Wait. I have to prove
what I said was true?
262
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,326
Mmm. Correct. Yes, but I'm the innocent party.
263
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:17,966
A man accuses you of something
264
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,122
and it's your job to prove he's wrong?
265
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,123
It's against natural justice.
266
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,896
In the US there's a presumption of innocence.
267
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,126
Yeah, not in the UK.
268
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:28,521
Tricky, isn't it?
269
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,445
So what do you know
about Mr. Irving?
270
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,523
Well, I've read every word he's written.
271
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,204
I know some of the personal stuff.
272
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,284
His father abandoned him when he was four.
273
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,096
He fell in love with Hitler when he was eight.
274
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,576
His brother said he used to run
around bombed-out buildings in London
275
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,284
during the Blitz shouting,
'Heil Hitler.'
276
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,408
He's self-educated.
Extremely proud of it.
277
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,767
He learned his German working in a factory.
278
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,525
I hear it's perfect.
Yeah. How's yours?
279
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:53,726
Adequate.
280
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,768
He wants it both ways,
Mr. Irving.
281
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,320
He wants to be the brilliant
maverick, the provocateur
282
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,562
who comes along and reinvents
the Second World War.
283
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,563
But he also wants respect,
284
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,847
the respect of his colleagues in the club.
285
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,970
England's a club, Deborah, and he wants to join.
286
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,326
But he's an anti-Semite.
287
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,609
You'd be amazed how many military
historians see that as just a detail.
288
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,056
They see him as a serious historian
289
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,242
who happens to see things
from Hitler's point of view.
290
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:18,440
Yeah, but it's not a detail.
291
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,281
You know, I think it's at the center
of everything he thinks and does.
292
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,800
So do I. Yeah. He's a liar
and a falsifier of history.
293
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,848
Yes, and this may be the chance to say so.
294
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,328
My mother named me Devorah.
295
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,686
You know what it means.
296
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,603
Leader. Defender
of her people.
297
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,211
Warrior.
298
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,651
There was an expectation when I was a kid.
299
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,121
My mother always said
there was gonna be an event.
300
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,530
That I was picked out.
I was chosen.
301
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:49,685
Well, here it is.
302
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,044
Good morning.
I think we're expected.
303
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,205
Goodness me. Oh. Ah.
304
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,403
Ah, yes, hello, delighted to see you.
305
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:17,687
I'm David Irving.
306
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,081
Here, take Jessica, please.
307
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,811
Darling, Daddy's just going
to be busy for a minute.
308
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,604
Here we are.
A little treat for you.
309
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,842
Yes, open and...
310
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,969
What's it going to be?
A red one. Ooh-oh-oh.
311
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:33,931
Darling. Bye-bye.
312
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,682
You must be, uh, bringing me
Miss Lipstadt's documents.
313
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:39,886
Yes.
314
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,247
That's everything that
contributed to her analysis.
315
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,169
The full extent of her research.
316
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,004
You must be her representatives.
317
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,368
Yes. I'm James Libson
and, uh, this is Miss Tyler.
318
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,683
She's our paralegal.
Paralegals indeed.
319
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,808
David against Goliath, already.
320
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,368
You must work with the,
uh, famous Mr. Julius?
321
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:00,680
Yes.
322
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,411
Gonna be a fascinating
encounter, don't you think?
323
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,006
Fascinating.
324
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,562
You see, as I see it,
it's academia versus the rest.
325
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,802
Remember, the greatest historians
326
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,848
have never been academics.
We're outsiders.
327
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,766
Cato, Thucydides, Gibbon, Churchill...
328
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,691
I field a very strong team.
329
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:21,896
Perhaps you'd like a cup of tea?
330
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,605
Uh, no, thank you. There's just
one more thing before we leave.
331
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:26,926
You keep a diary?
332
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,206
Yes, yes, um...
333
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,044
We'd like to apply to include the diary
334
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:32,849
in the process of discovery.
335
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:34,401
Hmm.
336
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:36,806
You... You're smiling.
337
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,129
Well, I don't much fancy the prospect
338
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,806
of Miss Lipstadt poring over my private writings.
339
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,087
Oh, no, no. Access would
be limited to us,
340
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,525
the legal team only.
341
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,486
Come.
342
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,451
I've kept a diary for 20 years.
343
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:05,088
I promise, I've nothing to hide.
344
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,326
But I doubt if even Goliath has the resources
345
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,842
to read between 10 and 20 million words.
346
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,207
And straightaway
you can see that perhaps tonight,
347
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,965
uh, Gareth Southgate could be the toast of Rio,
348
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,963
cause Villa are 2-1 up
349
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,691
at the home of the league leaders, Leeds United.
350
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,842
Let's get the latest
on that now. Harry Gration.
351
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:48,771
Yes, Ray, the new century
352
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,569
and a miracle has just about happened.
353
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,244
Two goals from Gareth Southgate
354
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:53,840
have given Villa a richly deserved...
355
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,161
All right. That's five...
356
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,607
Yes. No,
that's too much. I need...
357
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:09,806
Okay.
Lovely.
358
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,486
Have a nice day. Bye.
Cheers, then.
359
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,684
Oh, thank you.
360
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,365
Ah, here she is!
361
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,010
Here she is.
The client. The defendant.
362
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:45,963
All the way from Atlanta.
Anthony.
363
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,804
You sure you got enough people?
364
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,536
Well, we'll introduce you to everyone as we go.
365
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,767
But for the moment, everybody, Deborah Lipstadt.
366
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,763
- Say good morning.
- Morning, Deborah.
367
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,968
Morning. I'm, uh, Richard Evans. How do you do?
368
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,486
Hello.
How are you?
369
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,211
Richard is, uh, Professor of
Modern History at Cambridge.
370
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,011
Yes, I know. I know.
I asked for you specifically.
371
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,241
Oh, yes, of course.
372
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,051
Well, uh, Richard is gonna be one
of our eight expert witnesses.
373
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,202
It's a pleasure to meet you.
It's an honor.
374
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,121
Anthony. Is that a...
375
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,042
Is that a note from the Princess?
376
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,771
Uh, yes, yes, His, yes, yes.
377
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,289
Hoping for a similar result with you.
378
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,249
You wanna do to the Holocaust deniers
379
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:25,685
what you did to the monarchy?
380
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,531
Um... Yeah. Sort of.
381
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,611
Well, I think we should argue
382
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,002
that David Irving is not a real historian.
383
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:35,806
Oh, right. Well,
384
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,490
we'll be sure to take that on board.
385
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,240
Thank you so much.
386
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,324
James. James is gonna talk you
through your legal options.
387
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,562
I'm, uh... I'm James Libson.
I work with Anthony.
388
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,523
We've spoken.
Yes, yes, yes. Carry on.
389
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,049
So normally there are, uh, three routes
390
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:51,327
that any libel defender can take, okay?
391
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,926
So, first of all, you can argue that
392
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,321
Irving is misinterpreting the offending words.
393
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,448
Mmm-hmm. However, since
at one point in your book
394
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,002
you say that Irving seems to conceive
of himself as continuing Hitler's work,
395
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,976
I don't think we can say
he's misinterpreting anything.
396
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,286
I don't think we can.
397
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:06,691
Nor can we take the second route,
398
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,888
which would be just to say
that the offending words
399
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,610
aren't as offensive as Irving makes out.
400
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,880
- Oh, we can't take that route.
- No, they're offensive.
401
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,888
I hope so.
God knows I tried to be.
402
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,010
Yeah. So really it does
just leave us with this one option.
403
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,605
We call this the atom bomb defense.
404
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,091
That's the one we're gonna go for.
405
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,605
We plead justification.
406
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,967
So even if the words are defamatory,
407
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,849
they are still nevertheless true.
408
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,976
Quite. Not every word. It
doesn't have to be every word.
409
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,776
We can get some things wrong.
But we do have to prove,
410
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,450
what we call 'the sting' of the libel.
411
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,211
We argue that Irving deliberately
subordinated the truth
412
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,964
in order to propagate
anti-Semitism
413
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:38,963
and engender sympathy for the Third Reich.
414
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,770
- More coffee?
- No, thank you.
415
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,365
- Yeah.
- Um...
416
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,496
We are still left with the special
problem that we have in the UK
417
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,171
that the burden of proof lies with the accused.
418
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,096
Um, I'd like you to listen to Laura.
Have you met Laura?
419
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:51,360
Miss Lipstadt.
Hello.
420
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,762
Uh, Laura's 23.
Uh, it's her first case.
421
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,366
We've just been discussing this very point.
Attack it, Laura.
422
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,523
We feel... Anthony feels,
oddly in this particular case,
423
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,011
the peculiarity of the British law
424
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,082
can actually work to our advantage. Yes. Say.
425
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,010
The first reaction everyone has
426
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,764
when they hear about this trial is horror.
427
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,330
More like disbelief. I mean,
428
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,880
a court of law has to be a
lousy place to judge history.
429
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,644
I must agree, as a historian.
430
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,449
They say, 'My God, are you serious?
431
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,131
'You sit down in a court and
some pompous English judge
432
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,850
'rules on whether
the Holocaust happened?'
433
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,367
And let's think about this.
What if we lose? Huh?
434
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,284
It suddenly becomes acceptable,
it becomes respectable
435
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:27,850
to say the Holocaust didn't happen?
436
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,366
Has anyone thought about what that will mean?
437
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,841
But the wonderful thing is, you
see, if we play this right,
438
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,240
it's not going to be Irving
putting the Holocaust on trial.
439
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,288
No. It's going to be us
putting Irving on trial.
440
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:38,361
Laura's right.
Thank you.
441
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,920
Laura's very sound on this.
And if we focus on his lies,
442
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,968
and, equally important, his motives for lying,
443
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,931
there's absolutely no reason we should have
to produce eyewitnesses to these horrors.
444
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,524
Wait a minute.
What do you mean,
445
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,046
that the survivors won't appear?
446
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,043
No, no, no.
No, we don't want them to.
447
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,256
You don't want their testimony?
448
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,406
No.
Under no circumstances.
449
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,488
Why not? Why the hell not?
450
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,403
Because even to let survivors appear
451
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,131
would be to legitimize
his right to question them.
452
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,610
Can I say something
453
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,286
before you go any further with this strategy?
454
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,800
Yeah, please do.
455
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,086
You once said to me that this
trial might have implications
456
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,810
for the whole of the Jewish people.
457
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,926
Now you're saying you won't
allow the Jews to speak?
458
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,096
Right, I'll explain the thinking
459
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:25,216
just so you understand the thinking.
460
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,891
Yes, please, I would love
to understand the thinking.
461
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,296
We believe that Irving is planning
462
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,721
on being what we call a litigant in person.
463
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,364
He plans to conduct his own case.
464
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,576
What do you mean?
He's not hiring lawyers?
465
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,047
No. No, it'll be just him. Imagine that.
466
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,009
David Irving, international Holocaust denier,
467
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,401
finally getting his hands
on a survivor. Imagine it.
468
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,611
The hurt. The damage.
The insult.
469
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,336
It's unthinkable.
He's not gonna have that.
470
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,056
I won't allow it.
I won't allow that to happen.
471
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,242
What are you gonna allow?
472
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,128
He keeps a diary.
He has done for years.
473
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,376
He told us he had nothing to hide,
474
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,767
but we still had to subpoena
him to get hold of it.
475
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,926
What, you've spoken to him in person?
476
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,968
Yes, yes, we have.
477
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,123
Deborah, the first rule of a good
defense is a strong offense.
478
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:09,640
First rule?
First rule of litigation,
479
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,284
whether you're prosecuting or defending,
480
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:13,249
always run your case as if you're prosecuting.
481
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,209
It's a good rule.
So that's why Laura
482
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,971
is leading this group of researchers here.
They joined last week.
483
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,976
And they're gonna be
combing through all the diaries,
484
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,536
uh, looking in particular for any
contact with right-wing groups.
485
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,609
Neo-Nazis, skinheads,
anti-Semites, SS revival groups,
486
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,205
all kinds of assorted riffraff.
487
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,056
And, just as important, Professor Evans here,
488
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,526
with his, um, his two able graduate students,
489
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,888
Nik Wachsman and Thomas, uh...
490
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,006
Thomas Skelton-Robinson.
491
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:39,804
My team will be doing the historiography.
492
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,690
Examining every published word Irving ever wrote.
493
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,842
Checking sources, comparing editions.
494
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,486
Generally testing the reliability of his history.
495
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,324
You can't imagine what fun we're having.
496
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,336
We're gonna end up with
a charge sheet of inaccuracies
497
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:53,727
as long as your arm.
One mistake after another.
498
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,531
We think it'll take
about a year. Full-time.
499
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,401
Well, I'm glad that you guys
have got it all sewn up.
500
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,761
We aim to.
501
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,603
Okay, well, thanks very much, everyone.
502
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,085
As you know, uh,
503
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,089
we had been planning to do everything for free.
504
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,806
But given the mounting scale of the thing,
505
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,770
I think we may need to revisit
the question of charges.
506
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,887
Of course, if we lose,
507
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,684
the firm will be happy to carry the cost.
508
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,001
But we will need some support.
509
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,047
So you are allowing me to do something?
510
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,327
Um, I get to go fund raise?
511
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,721
Uh...
512
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,962
Yes, yes, if, um...
513
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,131
Whatever you can do.
514
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,649
I think people here do
have concerns about the trial.
515
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,082
The community's very keen to support you.
516
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,206
Mmm-hmm.
I'm glad to hear it.
517
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,963
But we're also interested
to know what you're thinking.
518
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,647
Mr. Julius is
a very brilliant young man.
519
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,767
He is.
520
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,010
Can we speak frankly?
Please, please.
521
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,482
There's... There's some fear you
may have fallen under his spell.
522
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,850
You won't be the first woman
523
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,684
to be attracted to his intellect.
524
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:20,327
Diana.
525
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,690
So far, I've raised, um,
most of my funds back home.
526
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,288
- Was that easy?
- It wasn't difficult.
527
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:34,930
Not as difficult as in London,
is that what you're saying?
528
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,287
There's a principle and I've stuck to it.
529
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:39,567
No single source of finance.
530
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,845
There was one man, he offered
to pay for the whole thing.
531
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,926
But when the history of this
moment comes to be written,
532
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,931
I think it's important many people gave, not one.
533
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,371
You talk about history.
534
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,450
Look at it from our point of view.
535
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,648
We live with David Irving.
He's British.
536
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,041
And he's a has-been.
537
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,121
What's a trial gonna do?
538
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,884
It's gonna give him a new lease of life.
539
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,646
Well, I can't help that
540
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,370
because I didn't bring the prosecution.
541
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:06,441
He did.
No,
542
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,296
but you could prevent the
whole thing from happening.
543
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,685
How would I do that?
Settle.
544
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,846
I mean it.
545
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,605
Sign some piece of paper.
Is that so terrible?
546
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,409
He's never gonna give you Auschwitz, okay,
547
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,643
but, then, he's...
He's David Irving.
548
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:24,767
We've lived with worse.
549
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,604
And what would you want me to settle for?
550
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,008
Four million dead? Three? One?
551
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,889
What number would you be comfortable with?
552
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,043
Here in England, you may
like appeasement, but I don't.
553
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:37,376
I don't think you should be
using a word like appeasement.
554
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:38,811
No? Then what word
should I use?
555
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,248
All we're saying, beware of Anthony Julius.
556
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,406
He does these things for his own glory.
557
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,650
Other women have been in his pocket
558
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,484
and found it an uncomfortable place to be.
559
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,927
Oh, well, if it's pockets we're talking about,
560
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,049
maybe you can explain why the British
find theirs so hard to open.
561
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,722
The area forecast for the next 24 hours.
562
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,285
Viking, North and South Utsire, 40.
563
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,921
Southwesterly, veering northwesterly,
564
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,681
6 to gale 8, perhaps severe gale 9 later.
565
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,650
Rain, wintry showers, moderate or full...
566
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,850
I had a hellish night last night.
567
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,048
I couldn't sleep.
I was so angry.
568
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,281
Really? Why?
569
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,522
I had dinner last night with some
570
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,443
leaders of the Jewish community.
571
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,648
Oh, the community, huh?
572
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,920
And did the community tell you it would
suit them better if you dropped the case?
573
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,644
I was defending you.
574
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,131
I'm sure you did a very good job.
575
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,920
Maybe you should take it up professionally.
576
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,091
They think you took this case for your own glory.
577
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,891
Glory? Gosh. I hadn't
thought about glory.
578
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,486
Glory? Fascinating. So what
did they give you to eat?
579
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,803
- I don't understand this thing, I really don't.
- Oh, here we are.
580
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,885
Richard Rampton, Deborah Lipstadt.
581
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,200
Ah!
582
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,244
'It is the author
of our misfortune.'
583
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,930
Please, please, please, come in.
584
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,525
Come in and warm yourself.
585
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,931
Hi.
Hello.
586
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,570
Richard will be your leading counsel.
587
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:26,976
I've explained to Deborah the difference
588
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,365
between barrister and solicitor.
589
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,411
Our legal system seems forbidding
but it works, I think.
590
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,006
If your legal system worked,
I wouldn't be in this mess.
591
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,650
I don't mind Dickensian,
592
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,684
it's Kafkaesque I'm worried about.
593
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,403
And this is our junior counsel, Heather Rogers.
594
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,686
How are you?
Hi, Heather.
595
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,450
Look, I've.
I've just opened up
596
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,284
this rather decent bottle of red.
597
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:48,566
Hope you don't mind plastic?
598
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,409
No, Richard, I'm not gonna drink.
599
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,448
I haven't eaten.
And Deborah hasn't slept.
600
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,130
No, I'll taste the wine.
Why not?
601
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,929
Everything else is being decided for me.
602
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,409
Yes, so Heather and I have been
introducing ourselves to the subject.
603
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,485
Hmm. I can see that.
A little light reading.
604
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,245
Oh, is this you?
605
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,560
You catch fish?
606
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:11,885
Yes, I do.
607
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,404
And how's your German?
608
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,245
Ah, you see?
Just like a barrister.
609
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,651
Go straight to my weak point.
610
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,486
Um, well, I know the libretto to The Magic Flute.
611
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,291
That's, uh... That's all
the German I have.
612
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,170
It's probably not very useful
in our forthcoming encounter.
613
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Anyway, cheers.
614
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,281
Cheers.
615
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,926
Cheers, Heather.
616
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,683
Yes, I was going to get on
with my Life of Mozart,
617
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,004
- but I shall have to postpone.
- Again.
618
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,686
Richard is the most skillful
advocate in the country.
619
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,046
I don't mind saying it.
620
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,090
Yes, well, in this case I wish I...
621
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,807
I wish I thought skill were enough.
622
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,921
What else do you need?
623
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,444
A rarer quality.
624
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,286
Such as?
625
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,091
Appetite.
626
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,447
Plainly, I shall have to go to Auschwitz
627
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,524
and I would be very grateful
if you would accompany me.
628
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,090
Why do you need to go to Auschwitz?
629
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,325
Legal reasons.
630
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,091
DEBORAH'. Is he coming?
631
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,367
He wants us here, and then he doesn't show up.
632
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,205
He's late, that's all.
He's often late.
633
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,645
Is he late for court?
634
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,160
Morning, everyone.
635
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,761
You must be Professor Van Pelt? I am.
636
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,968
Good. So, uh, let's
get down to business.
637
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,645
Heather. Deborah.
638
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,045
I suggest we start by taking a walk
639
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,724
around the perimeter fence.
640
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:24,801
Yeah, I just did that.
641
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,531
Good. Then let's
look at the plans. Omer?
642
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,125
I want you to understand
the scale of the operation.
643
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,936
What we are looking at here is one of the largest
644
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,896
and most efficient killing
machines in human history.
645
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,256
Yeah. Yes, we know what it is.
It's how we prove what it is,
646
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:40,416
that's what we're interested in.
647
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,728
We're not here on a pilgrimage,
we're preparing a case.
648
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,325
Okay.
649
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,524
These are the remains of Crematorium ll.
650
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,171
The buildings were deliberately
demolished by the Germans
651
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,208
in the autumn of 1944
652
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,487
to destroy the evidence of what they did here.
653
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,365
They dynamited them again
654
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,608
one week before the end of the war.
655
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,802
These steps led down into the undressing room.
656
00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:21,526
The Ol�re drawings, please.
657
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,802
David Ol�re was
a French artist. A survivor.
658
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,326
He was able to draw a lot of what he saw here.
659
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,883
He made a drawing of this arrangement here.
660
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,322
These are the steps in the drawing.
661
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,764
Then they were led through here,
662
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,650
past a sign that said, 'To the Baths'
663
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,160
and into the gas chamber...
664
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,560
Here.
665
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,048
Please watch your step.
Tread carefully.
666
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,325
This is a shrine.
667
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,451
What we are standing on here
668
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,444
is all that remains of the gas chamber itself.
669
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,124
This was the roof.
670
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,524
The chamber was right under here.
671
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,886
Under our feet.
672
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,046
The doors were locked and
cyanide crystals, Zyklon-B,
673
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,811
were poured in on them through holes in the roof.
674
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,164
One, two, three, four.
675
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,808
OW! Shit.
676
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:18,766
It... It's okay.
677
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,366
Now here are the delousing chambers.
678
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,250
Typhus was a terrible problem in the camp
679
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,085
and the lice that carried it had to be destroyed.
680
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,400
Right, now we get to it.
681
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,687
So we need to talk about Leuchter.
682
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,683
Yes, I'm coming to Leuchter. Yeah.
683
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,890
This building was used to
delouse the prisoners' clothing.
684
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,247
They used Zyklon-B
for that, too.
685
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,049
To kill the lice.
686
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,402
We know that?
Yes.
687
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,610
For sure?
You have proof?
688
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,409
We can't take anything for granted.
689
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:21,527
I need to see the proof.
690
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,170
Yes, I can give you proof.
691
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,207
However, in February 1988,
692
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,330
a Holocaust denier called Ernst
Z�ndel sent Fred Leuchter,
693
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,644
an engineer and self-styled
execution expert from America,
694
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,449
to test in different parts of the camp
695
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,091
for evidence of poison gas in the brickwork.
696
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,925
Traces of hydrogen cyanide, HCN.
697
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,129
The blue stains here
698
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,806
and here.
699
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,530
He came with a chisel?
700
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,086
That's right.
701
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,208
And he hacked away...
Correct.
702
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,009
...illegally,
without any permission
703
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,570
from the authorities,
704
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,521
and then he smuggled the pieces
out of Poland in his suitcase,
705
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,125
wrapped in his dirty underwear.
706
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,931
Be that as it may.
We can criticize his methods,
707
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,128
but it's his conclusions we have to discredit.
708
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,688
He found higher levels of HCN
709
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,364
here in the delousing chambers
710
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,647
than he did in the gas chambers themselves.
711
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:16,245
From this he concluded that
712
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,448
no human beings were killed at Auschwitz.
713
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,729
Only...
Only lice were killed.
714
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,048
Why are we talking about Leuchter?
715
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,641
I mean, he's really not worth
the paper he's written on.
716
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:29,802
Well, so you say.
Now say why.
717
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,211
I'll tell you why.
718
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:34,040
Because of course there was a
higher concentration in here.
719
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,526
It takes 20 times more cyanide
720
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,046
to kill lice than it does human beings.
721
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,930
Twenty times! Just Leuchter didn't know that.
722
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,489
Oh, this whole thing is infuriating.
723
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,403
I know.
It beggars belief.
724
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,403
Why has there not been a proper
scientific study of this whole site?
725
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,164
By reputable scientists?
726
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,004
Fifty years since the fact?
727
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,002
I mean, it's ridiculous.
728
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,287
Where's the proof?
Where's the evidence?
729
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:00,486
I need to know that.
730
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,722
You know what? This is a place
where you show respect.
731
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,848
Whoever you are, you show respect.
732
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,445
I have to ask some more questions.
733
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,965
Would you be happier outside?
734
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:11,240
What proof is there
735
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,009
that Leuchter's conclusions are wrong?
736
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,205
I thought we weren't gonna try the Holocaust.
737
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,849
We're not. I thought we weren't gonna debate,
738
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,206
'Did the Holocaust happen?'
739
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,520
That's what we agreed, Heather.
740
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,090
That's what we agreed.
741
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,930
He's asking questions, that's all.
742
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,809
He has to ask questions.
743
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,085
This isn't about memorializing,
744
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,685
it's about forensics.
745
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,041
God full of mercy who dwells in the heights,
746
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:14,689
provide a sure rest upon
the Divine Presence's wings,
747
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,926
in the realm of the holy, pure and glorious...
748
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,525
Pure and glorious,
749
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,127
...whose shining
resembles the sky.
750
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,044
I, um, bought you a drink.
751
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:01,490
I thought you might need it.
752
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,291
Thanks. I think I do.
753
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:08,969
You get what you wanted from the visit?
754
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,290
Deborah, you mustn't characterize me
755
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:14,805
as being without feelings.
756
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,000
I have feelings.
What did you feel today?
757
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,126
Oh.
758
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,125
Shame.
759
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,605
I have this terrible fear
that if I'd have been ordered
760
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,126
to do some of the things we saw today that...
761
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:37,366
That I would have agreed.
762
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,165
Out of weakness.
763
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,409
Well, that is honest of you to say so.
764
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,290
Well, that's how it is.
The world is full of cowards
765
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,045
and I've always had this nervous feeling that...
766
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,645
That I was one of them.
767
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,250
There's this line from Goethe,
768
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,530
'Der Fiege droht nur,
wo er sicher ist.'
769
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,888
It means, 'The coward only threatens
770
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,485
'when he feels secure.'
771
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,840
I thought you didn't speak German. Hmm.
772
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,287
You learned German in the last year?
773
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,761
Well, I had to master all these documents.
774
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,842
Irving had a 40-year
start on me,
775
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,001
so I had to catch up.
776
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,161
Did you?
777
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,809
No.
778
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,364
You know, you haven't taken my statement yet.
779
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,489
No. No, I...
Why is that?
780
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,280
No. Why? Anthony didn't talk to you?
781
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,522
Well, um, we made a couple of decisions.
782
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,403
Uh, the first was that we don't
want to put this case to a jury.
783
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,881
We think it'll be safer to put it to a judge.
784
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,411
A single judge?
Yeah.
785
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,727
What, the whole thing decided by one man?
786
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,245
Is that a good idea?
787
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,209
Well, we were worried about the kind of antics
788
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,687
that Irving might get up
to with an audience of 12.
789
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,524
I'm surprised it's our choice.
790
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,080
Well, it isn't.
He has to agree.
791
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:03,640
Why would he do that?
792
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,450
We have a notion.
793
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:08,366
Mmm.
794
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,368
And the other one?
I'm sorry?
795
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,090
Well, you said a couple of decisions.
796
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:16,404
Yes, well, um...
797
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,526
We decided, Anthony and I, that, um,
798
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,723
it would be better if you didn't testify.
799
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,090
Excuse me?
Well, that's it. We...
800
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,842
We don't believe you should testify.
801
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,411
Why?
802
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,331
Because you don't trust me?
No. No, not at all.
803
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,084
You think I'm gonna get emotional?
804
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,284
Well, I... After today...
805
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,727
Richard, we were at Auschwitz.
806
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,727
Let me remind you that I teach,
807
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:52,370
I lecture, I talk to the press...
808
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,169
I know.
I order ideas.
809
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:55,890
It's what I do.
It's what I'm good at.
810
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,530
You... You don't need
to protect me.
811
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,125
No, we're not protecting you.
812
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,804
We're protecting our case.
813
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,844
Our strategy is to keep the focus
on Irving and Irving alone.
814
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,010
It's not a test of your
credibility, it's a test of his.
815
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,976
You don't think I'm good enough.
816
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,048
No, no, no.
I didn't say that at all.
817
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,126
Everything you have to say,
you've said in your book.
818
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,884
Our task is to starve Irving,
819
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,645
and putting you in a witness box would feed him.
820
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,642
This case is happening to you,
821
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,325
but it's not about you.
822
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,085
This man hates me.
He's coming for me.
823
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,924
And when someone comes after you,
824
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:34,485
you take 'em on.
825
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:40,964
You know what people will say?
826
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,049
Yes, I think I do.
They'll say I'm a coward.
827
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,576
That I was too afraid to go on the stand
828
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:46,976
because I thought I would lose. Yeah.
829
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,321
That's what they'll say. And
you want me to live with that?
830
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,130
It's the price you pay for winning.
831
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,010
Uh, just one question, sir.
832
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,081
TRENCH'. What is it?
833
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,407
Uh, on our side,
834
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,562
we're beginning to feel that for the layman
835
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,722
this particular subject may represent
836
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,211
an impossible challenge.
837
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,845
I see. You're asking to
dispense with a jury? We are.
838
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,048
Have you asked
Mr. Irving his views?
839
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,168
Mr. Irving?
Well, um...
840
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:22,605
Perhaps before
Mr. Irving speaks?
841
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:23,886
Yes, go ahead.
842
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,888
We all know Mr. Irving
has devoted his life
843
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,883
to the study of the Third Reich.
844
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,647
I admit myself to having sometimes struggled
845
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:34,040
with the demands of the material.
846
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,003
I wonder if Mr. Irving
really believes it's fair
847
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,163
to ask the regular Joe or Joan
who walks in from the street
848
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:40,571
to grasp in a mere few weeks
849
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,405
what he himself has taken a lifetime to master.
850
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:49,606
I agree.
851
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,251
The issues before the court
are sufficiently complex
852
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,162
to require the attention of a learned judge,
853
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:58,811
and too complex to confront a jury with.
854
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:01,650
Are you sure, Mr. Irving?
855
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,046
Quite sure.
856
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,082
Trial by judge alone it is, then.
857
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,005
Thank you very much, sir.
858
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,040
This morning we'll see the beginning
859
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,770
of an extraordinary case in which...
860
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,286
...question the evidence
for the mass killing of Jewish people
861
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:40,776
at Auschwitz during the Second World War.
862
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,768
...including the movie
director, Steven Spielberg,
863
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,042
are paying for Miss Lipstadt's defense.
864
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,043
Mr. Irving is rumored to have
865
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,600
a list of around 4,000 contributors...
866
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:51,882
Miss Lipstadt's book, in which she refers
867
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,770
to Mr. Irving as
a Holocaust denier.
868
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:56,890
Morning, Deborah. Morning.
869
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,280
I didn't want you to go in alone.
870
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,084
Sweet of you.
It's not sweet at all.
871
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,616
I just wanted to make sure you didn't speak.
872
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,086
It's a short statement.
No, no, no. This way.
873
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:05,730
- Come on.
- Professor!
874
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,482
Julie McCarthy, NPR.
A quick word.
875
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,324
We need to hear your voice.
876
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,730
It's Julie McCarthy, NPR.
We need to hear your voice.
877
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,962
Just a quick word.
Lying Jewish bitch!
878
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,162
You think it all finished
with Hitler? It didn't.
879
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:20,811
We know which hotel you're in.
We know your room.
880
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,406
You think you're safe.
Well, you're not.
881
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,128
Morning. Morning,
everyone. Morning, everyone.
882
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,601
Good morning, everyone.
I'm looking forward to this.
883
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,011
May I say a few words?
884
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:45,801
Well, obviously...
885
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,216
Do you see that? He's gonna be
all over the front pages.
886
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:57,323
Deborah, there's only one person
that matters and that's the judge.
887
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,496
If you don't speak in court
and you do speak to the press,
888
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,602
the judge is gonna be
furious and with just cause.
889
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,842
And we both know what would solve that problem.
890
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,930
Another thing. You jog
the same way every day.
891
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:09,641
Don't.
892
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,568
What are you saying?
I'm not saying anything.
893
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,802
I'm just saying,
vary your route. Come on.
894
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,006
Vary my route?
895
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,411
Stay with her.
896
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,689
What, you think you can get away with it?
897
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,569
JANET'.
Let's have some order!
898
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,608
Please. Press in
the public gallery.
899
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,256
Front two rows.
Take the door on the left.
900
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:26,805
Hello, Nik.
Janet
901
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,451
General public upstairs. General
public upstairs. Thank you.
902
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,090
Let the defendant through, please.
903
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,288
This way, Miss Lipstadt.
Thank you, Clive.
904
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,291
They were lively.
Yes.
905
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,602
- How are you? All right?
- Fine, fine.
906
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,441
Just through here.
907
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,250
This is me?
This is you.
908
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,923
Good morning. Good morning.
909
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,164
- Morning, Mr. Irving.
- Good morning.
910
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:58,480
- Good morning.
- Morning.
911
00:49:58,560 --> 00:49:59,800
Good morning.
Good morning.
912
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:01,041
Morning.
913
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,683
Good morning. I'll just
take that for you.
914
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:08,841
Thank you.
There we are.
915
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,849
As advertised.
David and Goliath.
916
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,646
CLERK'. They're ready, my Lord.
917
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,330
Silence!
918
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:57,651
Court rise!
919
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:01,881
BOW.
920
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,803
- Bow.
- I'm American.
921
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,770
Everything else but no bowing.
922
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:18,201
My Lord...
923
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,090
I intend to show that far from
being a Holocaust denier,
924
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,844
I have repeatedly drawn attention
925
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,810
to major aspects of the Holocaust.
926
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,600
These defendants have done very real damage
927
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,762
to my professional existence.
928
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,605
By virtue of the activities of Miss Lipstadt
929
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,445
and those who funded her and guided her hand,
930
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,443
since 1996
931
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,570
I have seen one fearful publisher
after another falling away from me
932
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,120
and turning their backs on me as I approach.
933
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:50,841
My Lord,
934
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,286
if we were to seek a title for this libel action,
935
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,001
I would venture to suggest
Pictures at an Execution.
936
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,211
My execution.
937
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,727
The word 'denier' is particularly evil.
938
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,610
For the chosen victim
939
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,887
it is like being called
a wife beater or a pedophile.
940
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,360
It is enough for the label to be attached
941
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,410
for the attache to be designated a pariah,
942
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,802
an outcast from normal society.
943
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,248
It is a verbal Yellow Star.
944
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:33,525
LAURA'.
So, what did you think of him?
945
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,080
I thought he was oddly impressive. Did you?
946
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:37,366
Well, did you enjoy it?
947
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,044
Look, there he is.
Look, still at it.
948
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,204
It was confusing. It was like
he already knew all of our questions.
949
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,408
Well, yes, of course he does.
We sent them to him.
950
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,410
What? You sent him our
questions in advance? What...
951
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,323
Why would you give away our strategy?
952
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,368
Deborah, there is no strategy.
953
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,248
We're gonna box him in with the truth.
954
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:58,845
My Lord,
955
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,606
Mr. Irving calls himself
a historian.
956
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,683
The truth is, however, that
he is not a historian at all.
957
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,442
He is a falsifier of history.
958
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,283
To put it bluntly, he is a liar.
959
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,248
Now, between the publication
960
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,802
of the first edition of Hitler's War in 1977,
961
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,845
and the second edition in 1991,
962
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,241
Mr. Irving's view
of the Holocaust
963
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,800
underwent a sea change.
964
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,126
In the 1977 version,
965
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,808
he accepted it as historical
truth in all its essentials.
966
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,089
But in the 1991 edition,
967
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,600
all traces of the Holocaust had disappeared.
968
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:52,765
So, what are the reasons for
this astounding volte-face?
969
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,766
Well, the principle reason can be expressed
970
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,083
in one word, Leuchter.
971
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:00,521
Hmm.
972
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,049
Now, according to Mr. Irving,
the Leuchter report is,
973
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:06,929
'The biggest caliber shell
974
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,129
'that has yet hit
the battleship Auschwitz.'
975
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,442
Unfortunately for Mr. Irving,
976
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,531
the Leuchter report is bunk and he knows it.
977
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,923
So why did Mr. Irving
978
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,607
embrace the Leuchter report with such enthusiasm?
979
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,808
Why did he choose to publish it himself
980
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,609
and even to write an introduction?
981
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,003
Well, the answer must be
982
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,122
that he wanted it to be true.
983
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,601
After all, if the Holocaust hadn't happened,
984
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,401
Hitler couldn't have
ordered it or known about it.
985
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:42,970
And that's the point.
986
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,361
Shh. Please.
Please, just...
987
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,090
That was a very good start.
988
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,366
Mmm, I'm glad you're happy.
989
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,442
I saw his face when you called him a liar.
990
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,602
I don't think he's used
to hearing things like that.
991
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,047
No, I don't think he is.
Excuse me. Miss Lipstadt?
992
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,090
Yes, that's me.
May I speak to you?
993
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,766
Yes. Um, could you give
us a minute, please?
994
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,250
I would like you to come and
meet some of my friends.
995
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,048
Friends with something in common.
996
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,041
Would you like to sit?
997
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:28,564
We want to know, how can you let this happen?
998
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,406
None of us have been called. We have to be heard.
999
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:34,961
A trial of the Holocaust and no witnesses?
1000
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:36,690
How can that be right?
1001
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,120
There is a whole group of us.
1002
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,811
Deborah, we have to testify. We have to.
1003
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,168
On behalf of the others.
For the dead.
1004
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:56,770
I make you a promise.
1005
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,321
The voice of suffering will be heard.
1006
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,122
I promise you that.
1007
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:12,416
I was looking at Irving all the time.
1008
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,681
Yeah, me too. Couldn't take my eyes off him.
1009
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:15,896
He is kind of riveting, isn't he?
1010
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,729
Oh, I think this could well become a ritual.
1011
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,565
A welcome one, don't misunderstand me.
1012
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,723
Deborah? Not for me, thanks.
1013
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,929
You know, a very famous Attorney
General once told me a long time ago
1014
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,160
that one would become a much
more effective advocate...
1015
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:30,281
Can we talk privately?
1016
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:31,456
...after a few
glasses of claret.
1017
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,371
And, of course, sandwiches.
1018
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:36,646
Ah!
1019
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:37,721
Bravo.
1020
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:38,856
They're always in the cupboard.
1021
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:40,166
I have, uh, cheese sandwiches...
1022
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,323
I just talked to a survivor.
1023
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,011
Yeah, well, that's likely.
1024
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,969
There's several of them in the court.
1025
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,689
Deborah, we're not gonna discuss this again.
1026
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:51,976
Why not?
I've explained to you.
1027
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:53,286
Well, tell me again, Anthony.
1028
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,522
Whatever you say, the survivors are not on trial.
1029
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:56,641
That's the end of it.
1030
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:58,165
They confuse the issue.
1031
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,056
Oh, so you can look a survivor in the face
1032
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,776
and you can tell her she's not allowed to speak?
1033
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,848
You can do that? Because I can't. I can't do it.
1034
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,088
Deborah, these people have been through hell.
1035
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,366
I understand that.
1036
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:08,806
After all these years,
1037
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,616
they haven't been able to process the experience.
1038
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:11,687
I understand that, too.
1039
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,004
But a trial, I'm afraid, is not therapy.
1040
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,483
It's not my job to give emotional satisfaction
1041
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:18,891
to a whole group of people
1042
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:20,769
who can never forget what happened to them.
1043
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,529
You think they wanna testify for themselves?
1044
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,050
It's not for themselves they wanna testify.
1045
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,043
They wanna give voice to the
ones that didn't make it.
1046
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,811
To their families, their friends.
1047
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,649
Anthony, I... I promised that
their voice would be heard.
1048
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:42,926
I promised.
1049
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:45,896
Well, then you'd better go back out there
1050
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:47,490
and break your promise.
1051
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:20,645
Professor Van Pelt.
1052
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,525
May I first of all welcome you to our country
1053
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,329
and say what a great pleasure I had
1054
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,442
in reading your book on Auschwitz.
1055
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,881
You were deeply moved to
visit the actual location?
1056
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,406
More than moved.
I was frightened.
1057
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,562
It's an awesome responsibility.
1058
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:39,200
Professor, would you agree
1059
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,851
it is the duty of historians
1060
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,764
to remain completely unemotional?
1061
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,843
One's duty is to be unemotional,
1062
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:49,610
to be objective,
1063
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,245
but one's duty, I think,
1064
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,971
is to remain human in the exercise.
1065
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:58,804
Can you explain to the court, please,
1066
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,601
why it is in the very earliest
references to Auschwitz,
1067
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:04,126
published by the Russians
1068
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,680
after the capture of the camp in January 1945,
1069
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,250
there is no reference whatsoever
1070
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,971
to the discovery of gas chambers?
1071
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:15,125
Uh, I would need to see the
documents you refer to.
1072
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,244
Well, that's fair, I think.
1073
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:19,804
It is fair, my Lord.
1074
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,561
Your report quotes extensively
1075
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,051
from firsthand testimony
1076
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,043
of a man called Tauber.
1077
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,569
Yes. Uh, Tauber was
a Sonderkommando
1078
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,290
in Crematorium ll.
1079
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:35,845
He helped with the prisoners.
1080
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,571
He was interrogated at the end of May 1945.
1081
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,085
And, in his document,
1082
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,445
what does Tauber tell us about
the liquidation procedure?
1083
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,284
The... The simulation,
please?
1084
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,844
What he describes is the underground
arrangement of the Crematorium.
1085
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,601
The entrance was through an undressing room.
1086
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,489
The prisoners went into a corridor,
1087
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,324
and then through a door on the right
1088
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,482
into the gas chamber.
1089
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,446
The door was closed hermetically
1090
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,684
by means of iron bars which were screwed tight.
1091
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:14,605
The roof of the gas chamber
1092
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,287
was supported by concrete
columns and wire mesh pillars.
1093
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:19,600
Professor?
1094
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,283
In your simulation,
1095
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,204
that is the roof in this big photograph here?
1096
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:26,281
Uh, yes.
1097
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,207
It is the self-same roof?
1098
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:30,607
Yes.
1099
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,808
Uh, Tauber says the sides of these pillars,
1100
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,450
which went up through the roof,
1101
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,047
were of heavy wire mesh, like this.
1102
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:41,976
What does it mean when it says that
1103
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,606
the pillars went up through the roof?
1104
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,968
Went up to the roof, presumably?
1105
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,562
Yes, but they popped out, uh, above the roof.
1106
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,042
The pillars 'popped out'?
1107
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,009
The pillars went through a hole in the roof
1108
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,526
and the earth, which was
arranged on top of the roof,
1109
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,490
and then there was a little,
kind of, chimney on top of that.
1110
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,011
What was the purpose of that,
1111
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:03,366
architecturally speaking?
1112
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,323
Because these were hollow pillars
1113
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,731
and these were the pillars
1114
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,689
in which the crystals of Zyklon-B
1115
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,762
were inserted into the gas chamber.
1116
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,091
My Lord, you can see the layout.
1117
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,602
You can see the pillars with
1118
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,445
the wire mesh columns next to them.
1119
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:22,326
You have drawn in
1120
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,400
those wire mesh columns, have you not?
1121
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,163
In the sketches and on the computer?
1122
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,402
One of my students did, yes.
1123
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,767
But the wire mesh is an addition,
1124
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:35,844
it is not based on drawings
1125
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:37,450
and blueprints, is it?
1126
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,683
It is based on the drawing made by the man
1127
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,484
who actually made these pillars.
1128
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,562
Michael Kula.
In the camp workshop.
1129
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:44,641
And this hole
1130
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,889
in the roof, or these holes,
1131
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,043
how many wire mesh columns were there? Four?
1132
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,050
Uh... One, two,
three, four.
1133
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,802
Professor Pelt, we are wasting
our time, really, are we not?
1134
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:03,043
You yourself have stood on that roof
1135
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,847
and looked for those holes and not found them.
1136
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,208
Our experts have stood on
that roof and not found them.
1137
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,443
My Lord, there are no holes in that roof.
1138
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:14,488
There never were any holes.
1139
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:18,121
Therefore they cannot have poured
cyanide capsules through that roof.
1140
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,440
You will appreciate,
1141
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,683
if there had been those holes in that roof,
1142
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,896
which are the cardinal linchpin
of the defense in this action,
1143
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,321
they would have found them by now.
They have not found them!
1144
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,921
And all the eyewitnesses on whom he relies
1145
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,401
are therefore exposed as the liars that they are.
1146
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:40,042
Uh, my Lord,
it is now 3:56.
1147
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:42,929
Unless Mr. Rampton
wishes to say
1148
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:44,331
something to repair the damage...
1149
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:45,845
My Lord, may I respond to this?
1150
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,971
You may.
But not until tomorrow.
1151
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:51,051
Court rise.
1152
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:54,406
Just walk.
1153
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:55,816
Say nothing. The trial took
an extraordinary turn...
1154
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,571
Why did Rampton drop it?
Why did he let it go?
1155
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:00,176
Deborah, there are journalists everywhere.
1156
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,248
Just look straight ahead
and keep walking, please.
1157
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,402
Richard, can we get some of your time, please?
1158
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,323
I don't have much time now.
It won't take long.
1159
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,687
We have an unhappy client.
Okay, yes.
1160
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:10,811
Deborah, this is disastrous.
1161
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:12,216
I'm sorry. I'm going to have to take her. I know.
1162
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:13,287
I'm so sorry.
1163
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:14,691
...a major
setback for the defense
1164
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:16,728
who are now at the bottom of an uphill struggle.
1165
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,281
Let's all calm down, please. Try not to panic.
1166
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,886
Irving pulled a rabbit
out of the hat at 3:55.
1167
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:23,883
He thinks it's clever.
It isn't clever.
1168
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:25,296
No, it's not clever.
It's amateur dramatics.
1169
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:26,536
It doesn't mean it's not effective.
1170
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:27,856
Richard is gonna deal with this tomorrow.
1171
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,336
Look at these, look at these.
Not that one.
1172
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:30,576
I've looked at them.
I've seen them.
1173
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,648
I know them. Look.Look. Perfectly clear.
1174
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,849
The Ol�re drawings. The US
Air Force aerial photo.
1175
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:37,922
And there they are.
I know these photos.
1176
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:39,896
I don't need to look at them.
Holes in all of them, Deborah.
1177
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,048
Look, look, look.
Same shape, same pattern.
1178
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,203
One, two, three, four.
1179
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,123
And you know what Irving is gonna say?
1180
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:48,376
Irving's gonna say, 'They're not holes.
1181
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:49,736
'They're shadows, they're forgeries,
1182
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:50,896
'they're glitches on the negative,
1183
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:52,490
'they're paint cans
on the roof.'
1184
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,289
Yes, and it's our job to prove otherwise.
1185
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,176
But how are you gonna do that?
Anyway, it's too late.
1186
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:57,964
It's already out there. It's in the press.
1187
01:03:58,040 --> 01:03:59,896
Oh, it's in the press?
So what it's in the press?
1188
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:01,684
So Irving got what he came for.
1189
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:03,728
You know, he wanted headlines, he got 'em.
1190
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:05,365
'No holes,
no Holocaust!'
1191
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:06,976
He wanted a catchy phrase, he's got it.
1192
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,923
It's gonna... It's gonna spread like a virus.
1193
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,001
Do you want tea?
1194
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:11,684
No, I don't want tea. Just asking.
1195
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:13,205
Don't you see what he's doing?
1196
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:14,805
He's making it respectable to say
1197
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,240
that there are two points of view.
1198
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:18,205
People are gonna see the news now
1199
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:19,576
and they're gonna think, 'Oh, okay.
1200
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,736
'Some people think there were
gas chambers at Auschwitz,
1201
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,047
'and, oh, this is interesting, some people don't.'
1202
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,696
Yes, but Deborah, you know why he
chose Auschwitz in the first place.
1203
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,736
Why he chose Auschwitz?
Because everybody heard of it.
1204
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:30,330
Because of its emotional impact. No.
1205
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,482
Because�. I don't know. What are you getting at?
1206
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,496
No. Because it wasn't built
as an extermination camp.
1207
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:35,726
It was built as a labor camp.
1208
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:37,370
- I know that.
- Then it was modified.
1209
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:38,440
Yes, I know that.
1210
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:39,806
That's why he's going after it.
1211
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,201
It's a battering ram into a much bigger subject.
1212
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,760
Auschwitz is at the very
center of Holocaust belief,
1213
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,366
so Auschwitz is at the very
center of Holocaust denial.
1214
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:48,971
Think about it logically.
1215
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,247
It doesn't make any sense at all what he says.
1216
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:52,651
'No holes, no Holocaust.'
1217
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:54,404
He seizes one tiny fact
1218
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,416
and because that can't be
physically proved, he says,
1219
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,296
'Oh, well, then that throws
everything into doubt.
1220
01:04:58,320 --> 01:04:59,496
'The Nazis didn't do any murdering.
1221
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:00,616
'They didn't do
any murdering at all.'
1222
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:02,768
I know that. I wrote
a whole book about it.
1223
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:03,976
- For God's sake...
- I know that.
1224
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:05,496
It's the same thing as the Hitler trick.
1225
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:06,936
It's exactly the same thing.
Exactly the same thing!
1226
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:08,086
'Give them $1,000.'
1227
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,128
Tell me about it.
I'm the one that he did it to.
1228
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:11,576
You know, if you can't find a piece of paper
1229
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,090
where it says, you know,
1230
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:14,525
'Please murder the Jews,'
1231
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,896
it means Hitler never wanted
them to die in the first place.
1232
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:18,570
'Hitler was
the Jews' best friend.'
1233
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,847
Irving said that!
He actually said that!
1234
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:21,921
I have to go.
1235
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:23,336
Wait a minute! I wanna say something.
1236
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:24,976
And for once I want you all to listen to me.
1237
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,001
I'm the defendant
1238
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,081
and I know the rule.
1239
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:28,764
The rule is the client instructs.
1240
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,569
Well, the client's instructing.
1241
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,367
The survivors go on the stand.
And I go on the stand, too.
1242
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:36,361
Gentlemen.
1243
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:40,404
Richard? Where's he going? Richard?
1244
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,050
Did you hear what I just said?
Deborah!
1245
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,530
Richard. Richard.
1246
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,443
Why is he leaving?
Because he has to prepare.
1247
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:49,521
That's why he's leaving.
1248
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:50,965
He doesn't just turn up in court.
1249
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,122
He devotes his entire day,
every minute of his day,
1250
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,680
rigorously, to this case and nothing but.
And that's the point!
1251
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,048
No, what you're not getting,
what you're ignoring,
1252
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:00,929
is that we know what happened at Auschwitz
1253
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,976
because there were people
there who actually saw it.
1254
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,571
Oh, Deborah, Deborah.
Yes, yes!
1255
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,483
With their own eyes.
1256
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:08,766
They're called survivors.
1257
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:10,490
Yes. And put
survivors on the stand
1258
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,403
and Irving will humiliate them.
1259
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,927
Remember the Z�ndel trial.
Remember the Exodus trial.
1260
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,445
They were torn apart.
1261
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,570
Because survivors don't remember.
1262
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,240
Not every detail.
They forget something.
1263
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,416
They say a door was on the left,
when actually it was on the right,
1264
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:24,680
and then, Wham! Irving's in.
1265
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,816
You see? 'They're liars, you
can't trust anything they say.'
1266
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:28,120
That's it, that's the technique.
1267
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,482
...will roll up her sleeve
and show you the tattoo
1268
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:32,324
to prove that, yes, she was in Auschwitz.
1269
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:34,050
Do you think Irving's gonna respect them?
1270
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,360
You want that? Holocaust
survivors mocked and humiliated?
1271
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,164
You've got to get tasteless.
1272
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:39,287
I shall say,
1273
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,443
'Mrs. Altman, how much money
1274
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,484
'have you made out of
that tattoo since 1945?'
1275
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:52,400
You want more of that, do you?
1276
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:55,321
You think that's helpful?
1277
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:26,842
So, now, Mr. Irving,
1278
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,607
I will ask you to explain why,
1279
01:08:31,440 --> 01:08:34,887
if, as you claim, there were
no gas chambers in Auschwitz,
1280
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:40,804
the gratings taken in 1945
by the Polish authorities
1281
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,884
from Morgue 1 in Crematorium
ll were covered in cyanide,
1282
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:48,649
and why the camp's chief
architect, Karl Bischoff,
1283
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,530
specifically refers to Morgue 1
1284
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:53,489
as a Vergasungskeller,
1285
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:55,611
a 'gassing cellar.'
1286
01:08:57,400 --> 01:08:58,561
Well?
1287
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,725
I am willing to concede that they did indeed find
1288
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,202
in the ventilator gratings traces of cyanide.
1289
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:07,930
They did?
Yes.
1290
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:10,763
I will also concede that it was indeed
1291
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:12,410
used as a gassing cellar.
1292
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,324
It was?
Yes.
1293
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:15,561
Good. So...
1294
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:18,285
Gassing what?
1295
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:20,523
Well, I think the evidence is clear
1296
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,210
that the room was used as a gassing cellar
1297
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:26,282
for fumigating cadavers.
1298
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:30,648
Fumigating cadavers? Yes.
1299
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:32,768
Why exactly do you say that?
1300
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:35,803
That is what mortuaries are for.
1301
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,167
In mortuaries you put cadavers.
1302
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,409
What is the evidence that that room
1303
01:09:40,480 --> 01:09:42,562
was used for gassing corpses?
1304
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:44,525
That is what it was built for.
1305
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,523
I'm sorry, this, uh,
1306
01:09:47,480 --> 01:09:48,970
seems a crude question,
1307
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,526
but what is the point of gassing a corpse?
1308
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:53,725
Because, my Lord,
1309
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:55,848
they came in heavily infested
1310
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,691
with the typhus-bearing
lice which had killed them.
1311
01:09:58,760 --> 01:09:59,966
Did they?
1312
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,331
Did they, Mr. Irving?
Did they indeed?
1313
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,129
Then please explain to me
1314
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:07,487
why they needed
a gas-proof door
1315
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,006
with a peep hole with double 8mm glass
1316
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:12,811
and a metal grill on the inside?
1317
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:25,529
You will remember at this time
1318
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:27,284
most of Germany was under the weight
1319
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:28,725
of Royal Air Force bomber command.
1320
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:32,085
There was a concern about the need
1321
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:33,491
to build
bomb-tight shelters.
1322
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,722
So now it's an air-raid shelter, is it?
1323
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:37,041
I beg your pardon?
1324
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,841
It is either a room for
gassing already dead corpses,
1325
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:42,650
or it's an
air-raid shelter?
1326
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,643
Did I say either/or?
1327
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:47,487
In early 1943?
1328
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:49,685
An air-raid shelter?
1329
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,411
When you know perfectly well that
1330
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:53,244
the first bombing raid near Auschwitz
1331
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:55,846
wasn't until late 1944.
1332
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:58,045
And the placing
1333
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,803
of this so-called
'air-raid shelter,'
1334
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:02,881
if it was for the SS,
1335
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,850
it was a terribly long way from
the SS barracks, wasn't it?
1336
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:07,765
Have you thought of that?
1337
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,207
It's two and a half miles, isn't it?
1338
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:13,246
If there was a bombing raid,
1339
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:15,243
they'd all be dead before they got there.
1340
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:20,083
But can you really see lots
of very heavily armed men
1341
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,561
running the two and a half to three miles
1342
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:24,961
from the SS barracks to a cellar
1343
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:27,168
at the far end of Birkenau?
1344
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:29,251
You see...
1345
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,723
I'm trying to understand
1346
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,722
if there was this, this dual function,
1347
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:38,643
so see if you can help me.
1348
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:40,210
Now, if the corpses
1349
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,806
were also gassed there,
1350
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:44,450
then, as I understand it,
1351
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,490
they were then sent to be incinerated?
1352
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:48,641
Yes.
1353
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:52,404
What is the point in gassing a corpse
1354
01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:54,403
that is about to be burnt?
1355
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:59,725
I'm not sure, saying this
1356
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:01,723
off the top of my head, Mr. Rampton.
1357
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:04,288
I'm not a Holocaust historian,
1358
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:06,806
I'm a Hitler historian.
1359
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:10,089
Then why don't you keep your
mouth shut about the Holocaust?
1360
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,485
The truth is, as usual,
Mr. Irving,
1361
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:14,721
you jump in off the board
1362
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:16,689
spouting whatever rubbish comes into your head
1363
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,411
in order to avoid the obvious conclusion.
1364
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,126
This is not because you're a rotten historian.
1365
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,761
It's because you're a bent one, as well.
1366
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:11,925
Come in!
1367
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:24,128
Um, forgive me.
I should have rung,
1368
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:25,770
but I thought it would be interesting
1369
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:27,405
to see where you lived.
1370
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,369
Is that all right?
Yes, of course.
1371
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:33,256
Come in, please.
Thank you. Thank you.
1372
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:35,726
It's, uh, very messy.
1373
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,848
Well, that's not going to bother me.
1374
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:42,405
Let's see, the, um, 1995 Pommard Les Epenots.
1375
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:44,931
Uh, it's rather special, I think.
1376
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,411
You've had it before, remember?
1377
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:48,050
Oh, uh, yes.
1378
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:51,846
Well, there are glasses here.
1379
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,089
Ah, shame.
I rather like plastic.
1380
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:56,445
Still, you can't have everything.
1381
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:02,408
I like to treat myself, don't you?
1382
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:04,326
Why should all the bad people
1383
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:06,368
have all the good things in life?
1384
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:07,601
Like this?
1385
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,923
You had a good morning. Yes, I did.
I did, didn't I?
1386
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,968
I rather think it went my way.
1387
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:15,485
Cheers.
Cheers.
1388
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:16,800
Mmm.
1389
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:19,841
It's paying off.
What is?
1390
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,289
Your technique.
That thing you do.
1391
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:23,725
You never catch his eye.
1392
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:25,484
Ah! You've noticed, have you?
1393
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:27,376
Well, what do you think I've been doing these...
1394
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:28,970
These past weeks?
1395
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:30,041
Please, uh...
1396
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:32,403
Sit.
Oh, thank you.
1397
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:34,881
Yes, well, it's my way of
1398
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:36,536
telling him what I think of him.
1399
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:38,927
I don't look at him. It's getting under his skin.
1400
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,201
I owe you an apology.
1401
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:50,684
I can't think why.
1402
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,081
For Auschwitz.
Oh.
1403
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:56,411
I thought you were rude.
1404
01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:58,724
I thought you were late.
1405
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:00,607
But now I understand.
1406
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:02,376
You were just... You were
pacing out the distance.
1407
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:03,686
Yes.
Yes, I had to.
1408
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:06,001
Well, I understand that from today.
1409
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:10,165
Yes, it's a scene of a crime.
I have to go to the site.
1410
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:12,971
You were preparing a case. You had to be sure.
1411
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:15,361
However disrespectful you seemed.
1412
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:17,681
However heartless.
1413
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:22,124
That's what I do.
1414
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:27,327
I didn't know what to expect.
1415
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,010
It was...
It was a brief.
1416
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:33,403
I mean, my previous brief, believe it or not,
1417
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:34,925
was from McDonald's.
1418
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:41,764
How could Auschwitz be just another brief?
1419
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:44,085
I am sorry that
1420
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,324
perhaps you felt that that's what it was to me.
1421
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:54,682
Very upsetting to see a client in such distress.
1422
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:57,124
We didn't mean to make you unhappy.
1423
01:15:57,240 --> 01:15:58,571
I know that.
1424
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,249
But I have never trusted anyone
1425
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:03,560
to do anything on my behalf
1426
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:05,404
since I was a child.
1427
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,247
And all I have is my voice and my conscience
1428
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:13,244
and I have to listen to it.
1429
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:14,481
Your conscience?
Yes!
1430
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:15,686
Yes.
1431
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:19,247
They're strange things, consciences.
1432
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:21,766
Trouble is, what feels best
1433
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,646
isn't necessarily what works best.
1434
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:28,523
I mean, by all means,
1435
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:30,170
stand up, look the devil in the eye,
1436
01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:32,965
tell him what you feel.
1437
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:36,251
Why not? It's very satisfying. See what happens.
1438
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:39,564
And risk losing.
1439
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:42,844
Not just for yourself.
1440
01:16:43,480 --> 01:16:44,480
For the others.
1441
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:47,444
For everyone.
Forever.
1442
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:49,770
Or?
1443
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:53,083
Or...
You know 'or.'
1444
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:55,685
Stay seated.
1445
01:16:57,480 --> 01:16:58,606
Button your lip.
1446
01:17:00,480 --> 01:17:01,845
Win.
1447
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:06,647
An act of self-denial.
1448
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,404
Do you have any idea how hard it is
1449
01:17:18,480 --> 01:17:21,404
to hand over your conscience to somebody else?
1450
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,564
This is everything I thought I would never do.
1451
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:34,650
All right.
1452
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:41,249
I'm gonna hand mine over
to this, uh, fly-fishing,
1453
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,448
wine-drinking
1454
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:45,521
Scotsman.
1455
01:18:01,440 --> 01:18:03,681
There you are.
Hello.
1456
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,371
Morning. Here, let me move this.
1457
01:18:06,440 --> 01:18:07,601
Sit down.
1458
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:10,125
What is that?
1459
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:12,681
Ah.
It's black pudding.
1460
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:13,761
It's traditional.
1461
01:18:14,440 --> 01:18:15,441
It's made of blood.
1462
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:17,360
And you wanna live until the end of the trial?
1463
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,641
Well, you've cheered up since last night.
1464
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:21,808
I've cheered up because of last night.
1465
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:23,496
Shutting ups not gonna be easy but...
1466
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:24,885
Oh, could I have a black pudding
1467
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:25,960
for my friend, please?
1468
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:28,367
Ignore him. I want a bagel, please.
1469
01:18:28,440 --> 01:18:31,125
Oh, and not toasted.
Thanks.
1470
01:18:31,440 --> 01:18:33,602
Oh, I need this. It's gonna be a tough day.
1471
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:34,841
Proving intention.
1472
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:38,046
Richard Evans gave us plenty of places
1473
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:39,690
where Irving got his facts wrong.
1474
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:42,445
But we have to prove he got
'em wrong intentionally.
1475
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:44,849
He's fighting for his life.
1476
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:46,365
And remember,
1477
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:48,330
he knows the law as well as we do.
1478
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:51,643
Unless we prove that Irving's
mistakes are deliberate,
1479
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:52,926
we lose.
1480
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:54,681
We lose.
1481
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:57,287
GRAY'. Mr. Irving,
1482
01:18:58,520 --> 01:18:59,726
the defense are claiming that
1483
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:01,768
you deliberately falsified evidence
1484
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:03,882
to suit your own political purposes.
1485
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,167
You must address that charge.
1486
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:11,321
We must deal with what we
call 'keine liquidierung. '
1487
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:15,369
Very well. We're looking first
at the November 30th entry.
1488
01:19:15,440 --> 01:19:16,680
Am I right?
1489
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:17,886
My Lord,
1490
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:19,689
if I may explain the context?
1491
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:21,000
Please.
1492
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:24,327
Heinrich Himmler, the Head of the SS, kept a log
1493
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:26,562
in which he made a record of every telephone call
1494
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:28,563
he gave and received.
1495
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,210
In 1941,
1496
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:32,881
he called Heydrich from Hitler's bunker
1497
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:34,724
to give him instructions.
1498
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:37,610
After the call, he wrote some words.
1499
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:41,321
'Jodentransport aus Berlin.
1500
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,084
'Keine Liquidierung.
1501
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:45,447
'Jodentransport aus Berlin.
Keine Liquidierung.'
1502
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:46,851
Which clearly means,
1503
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,208
'The Jew Transport from Berlin.
1504
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:52,170
'No liquidation.'
1505
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:55,608
'The Jew Transport,' singular,
1506
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:57,361
'from Berlin.'
1507
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:00,131
In Hitler's War,
1508
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:02,646
you write something completely different.
1509
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,004
30, Himmler was obliged
1510
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:09,649
'to telephone from Hitler's bunker to Heydrich
1511
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:14,169
'the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated.'
1512
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,449
In other words, you mistranslate the log
1513
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:20,002
so as to pretend that this order came directly
1514
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:21,320
from Hitler, which it didn't,
1515
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:22,970
they hadn't even met that day,
1516
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:24,927
and that it applied
1517
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:28,402
not to just one particular trainload of Jews,
1518
01:20:28,480 --> 01:20:31,324
but to all Jews throughout Germany.
1519
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:34,404
And in order to bolster
1520
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:36,762
this false impression,
1521
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:39,810
you omit the word 'Berlin' altogether.
1522
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:42,050
So your claim to have
1523
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:46,728
incontrovertible proof that Hitler tried
to stop the liquidation of the Jews,
1524
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:51,131
as opposed to one particular
trainload of Jews, is false.
1525
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:54,570
You knew that then. You know it now. It's wrong.
1526
01:20:57,200 --> 01:20:59,043
Of course, if you privately decided
1527
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:01,088
it was a...
1528
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:04,011
A reasonable kind of mistake to make
1529
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,524
when one is reading a new
document for the first time,
1530
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:11,161
you would, uh, you would immediately
tell the court, would you not?
1531
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:12,480
Of course, I would.
1532
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:17,603
I do not feel this is a
reasonable mistake to make.
1533
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:19,850
I believe it's deliberate.
1534
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:21,081
Ha!
1535
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:28,406
In Hitler's War,
1536
01:21:28,480 --> 01:21:30,687
you write something completely different.
1537
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:34,411
'At 01:30, Himmler was obliged
1538
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:38,004
'to telephone from Hitler's bunker to Heydrich
1539
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:42,808
'the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated.'
1540
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:46,202
what? Because I'm tired of it.
1541
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:49,322
You didn't even want to be a lawyer.
1542
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:54,410
The Holocaust, the Holocaust.
1543
01:21:56,480 --> 01:21:58,448
There are other things.
1544
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:02,251
At some point isn't everyone gonna have to let go?
1545
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:05,683
It... It's an obsession.
1546
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:07,850
How many years?
1547
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:11,411
Are they ever gonna let go of this grievance?
1548
01:22:11,480 --> 01:22:14,165
I think it's rather more than a grievance.
1549
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:16,327
I find the whole
1550
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:18,448
Holocaust story utterly boring.
1551
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:22,082
The Jews keep going on about the Holocaust
1552
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:23,889
because it's the only interesting thing
1553
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:26,367
which has happened to them in 3,000 years.
1554
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:29,171
I'm not interested in the Holocaust,
1555
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,288
I don't know anyone who is.
1556
01:22:32,480 --> 01:22:33,606
And that's an excerpt
1557
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:35,409
from a speech you made
1558
01:22:35,480 --> 01:22:38,450
at the Best Western Hotel in Tampa
1559
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:42,047
on July the 25th, 1998.
1560
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:43,360
I remember speaking,
1561
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:45,243
um, I do not know what the date was.
1562
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,889
You said, 'I think 95% of the thinking public
1563
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:52,322
'find the Holocaust endlessly boring,
1564
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:54,084
'but they dare not say it
1565
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:57,289
'because it is
politically incorrect.'
1566
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:00,481
Uh, Mr. Irving,
next I want to refer you
1567
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,723
to a talk you gave to the Clarendon Club,
1568
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:05,404
whatever that may be,
1569
01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:08,802
on the 19th of September, 1992.
1570
01:23:09,240 --> 01:23:14,121
Uh, the transcripts. Tab five, my Lord, page 35.
1571
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:15,247
Thank you.
1572
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:17,928
But if there is one thing that gets up my nose,
1573
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:20,082
I must admit it's this.
1574
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:22,289
When I switch on my television set
1575
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:24,601
and I see one of them reading our news to us.
1576
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:31,006
Mr. Irving, who is the
'them' and who is the 'us'?
1577
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:33,007
Trevor McDonald.
1578
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:34,526
McDonald?
1579
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:36,364
A newsreader, my Lord.
1580
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,450
A black newsreader.
1581
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:42,004
Well, in fact, this is
a stock speech I used to make.
1582
01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:43,686
I used to say,
1583
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:44,841
'In the good old days,
1584
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:46,922
'the announcer would wear a dinner jacket.
1585
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:48,616
'Now they've got women reading the news,
1586
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:49,641
'and they have...'
1587
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:51,449
It's just part of a general speech.
1588
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:55,407
Yes. 'It is our news and
they're reading it to me.'
1589
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:58,416
If they could have their own news,
which they were reading to us,
1590
01:23:58,440 --> 01:24:00,000
I suppose it would be very interesting.
1591
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:02,211
But for the time being,
1592
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,487
I'd be prepared to accept that the BBC
1593
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,967
should have a dinner-jacketed gentleman
1594
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:08,485
reading the important news...
1595
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:11,643
...followed by a lady reading
the less important news...
1596
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,056
...followed by Trevor McDonald
giving us all the latest news
1597
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:15,570
on muggings and drug busts.
1598
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:19,850
'Rest lost in
loud laughter and applause.'
1599
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:22,964
Are you not appalled by that?
1600
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:24,805
Not in the least.
1601
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:26,281
This was a witty speech
1602
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:28,727
delivered after dinner to an
audience at a private club.
1603
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:30,529
You were talking to a bunch of racists.
1604
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:32,967
No, they were not. They were
perfectly ordinary guests...
1605
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,247
Ordinary people? Then why were there cheers?
1606
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:37,368
Well, obviously they liked the jokes.
1607
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:43,842
Mr. Irving, I think you might be advised
1608
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:45,888
to have a look at your own diary,
1609
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:47,925
if you wouldn't mind.
1610
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:50,606
Thirty-eight, please,
Mr. Irving, 38.
1611
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:52,125
Tab10
1612
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:55,081
of the bundle K4.
1613
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:01,930
'A quiet evening at home.
Jessica...'
1614
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:03,001
Who is Jessica?
1615
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:06,362
My little infant child.
1616
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:07,521
Yes.
1617
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,365
She was nine months old at the time.
1618
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:13,803
Nine months old in September 1994.
1619
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:19,082
'Jessica is turning into a fine little lady.
1620
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:23,123
'She sits very upright on an ordinary chair,
1621
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:26,522
'a product of our regular
walks to the bank, lam sure.
1622
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:31,165
'On those walks, we sing the
'binkety-bankety-bong' song.
1623
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:33,968
'She stars in a poem
1624
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:37,044
'when half-breed children
are wheeled past.'
1625
01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:42,041
And then you go into italics.
1626
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:45,723
'I am a baby Aryan
1627
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:48,561
'Not Jewish or sectarian
1628
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:51,771
'I have no plans to marry
1629
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:54,328
'An ape or Rastafarian.'
1630
01:25:56,480 --> 01:25:58,323
Racist, Mr. Irving?
1631
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:00,529
Anti-Semitic, Mr. Irving?
1632
01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:02,131
I do not think so.
1633
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:05,807
Teaching your little child this kind of poison?
1634
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:08,767
Do you think a nine-month-old
can understand words
1635
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:10,729
spoken in English or any other language?
1636
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:12,723
This poor little child
1637
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:15,246
has been taught a racist ditty
1638
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,886
by her racist and perverted father.
1639
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:20,244
Have you ever read Edward Lear?
1640
01:26:20,360 --> 01:26:21,885
Hilaire Belloc?
1641
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:25,248
They haven't brought a libel action, Mr.
Irving. You have.
1642
01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:28,482
You sued because you said that
1643
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,723
we had called you a racist and an extremist.
1644
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:34,091
Yes,
1645
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:37,405
but I'm not a racist.
1646
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:41,846
Mr. Irving,
1647
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:46,163
look at the words on the page.
1648
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:53,250
Well done, Richard.
1649
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:55,561
That's it.
Racism, anti-Semitism
1650
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:57,051
and the guy's a Holocaust denier.
1651
01:26:57,120 --> 01:26:59,248
I mean, we always said it was a package deal.
1652
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:02,244
We've got symptoms, purpose, motive.
1653
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:04,886
I really don't see what else they'd want.
1654
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:06,405
What did you think, Anthony?
1655
01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:07,480
What did I think?
1656
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:09,409
I thought it was the most boring morning
1657
01:27:09,480 --> 01:27:10,561
we've had in court so far.
1658
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:12,608
My God, you love to be contrary.
1659
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:14,887
Well, the man's an anti-Semite and a racist.
1660
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:16,376
It's like having shit on your shoe.
1661
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:18,209
You wipe it off.
You don't study it.
1662
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:19,280
Thanks a lot.
1663
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,040
You know, my whole life's been studying it.
1664
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:23,969
You could hardly accuse me of being racist.
1665
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:25,166
Among my domestic staff
1666
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:27,242
I've had a Barbadian, a Punjabi,
1667
01:27:27,320 --> 01:27:29,084
Sri Lankan, a Pakistani.
1668
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:31,296
And I can tell you, though, they
were all very attractive girls
1669
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:32,481
with very nice breasts.
1670
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:34,490
I'm sorry?
Can you say that again?
1671
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:37,896
You know what I'm gonna miss?
1672
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:39,809
Ah.
1673
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:41,405
Me, too, Richard.
Me, too.
1674
01:27:41,480 --> 01:27:42,480
Me, too.
1675
01:27:42,520 --> 01:27:43,851
The excellent chutney.
1676
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:46,366
It's something I never expected.
1677
01:27:46,440 --> 01:27:47,851
My parents made me take up law
1678
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:49,684
and the first case I get,
1679
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:51,205
I feel I'm making a difference.
1680
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:53,328
It's a wonderful feeling.
1681
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,085
I never, ever expected that.
1682
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:58,851
I feel exactly
the same... Still.
1683
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:01,806
- Cheers.
- Cheers.
1684
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:06,164
All right, who wants any more
of this excellent vintage?
1685
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:07,685
- Yes, please.
- Oh, no, not for me.
1686
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:11,888
This trial has been both
long and hugely expensive,
1687
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,884
costing an estimated three million pounds or more
1688
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:17,008
and running for almost eight weeks.
1689
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:18,520
As the trial enters its eighth week,
1690
01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:20,767
some are saying it raises
freedom-of-speech issues.
1691
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:22,256
Only the two opposing speeches remain
1692
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:24,123
before the judge,
Mr. Justice Gray,
1693
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,806
retires for what we are told
will be at least four weeks
1694
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:28,405
to consider his judgment.
1695
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:31,964
My Lord, during this trial
1696
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:34,168
we have heard from Professor Evans and others
1697
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:35,765
of at least 25
1698
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:38,081
major falsifications of history.
1699
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:40,770
'Well,' says Mr. Irving,
1700
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,640
'all historians
make mistakes.'
1701
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:45,486
But there is a difference
1702
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:47,369
between negligence,
1703
01:28:47,440 --> 01:28:49,249
which is random in its effect,
1704
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:53,525
and a deliberateness
which is far more one-sided.
1705
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:56,487
All Mr. Irving's
little fictions,
1706
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:59,080
all his tweaks of the evidence,
1707
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:00,844
all tend in the same direction,
1708
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:04,766
the exculpation of Adolf Hitler.
1709
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:07,048
He is, to use an analogy, like the waiter
1710
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:09,327
who always gives the wrong change.
1711
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:11,047
If he is honest,
1712
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:12,690
we may expect sometimes
1713
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:14,728
his mistakes to favor the customers,
1714
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:16,484
sometimes himself.
1715
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:20,924
But Mr. Irving is
the dishonest waiter.
1716
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:24,286
All his mistakes work in his favor.
1717
01:29:25,480 --> 01:29:28,450
How far, if at all,
Mr. Irving's anti-Semitism
1718
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,364
is the cause of his Hitler apology,
1719
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:34,728
or vice verse, is unimportant.
1720
01:29:35,440 --> 01:29:38,728
Whether they are taken together or individually
1721
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:40,564
it is clear that they have led him
1722
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:41,880
to prostitute his reputation
1723
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:44,281
as a serious historian
1724
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:48,241
in favor of a bogus
rehabilitation of Adolf Hitler
1725
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:49,891
and the dissemination
1726
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:54,010
of virulent anti-Semitic propaganda.
1727
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:57,404
Yes, this is a question
1728
01:29:57,480 --> 01:30:00,086
I have to ask you,
Mr. Rampton.
1729
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:01,446
Yes, by all means, my Lord.
1730
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:03,765
My question is this,
1731
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:07,007
if somebody
is anti-Semitic,
1732
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,560
anti-Semitic
and extremist,
1733
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:11,200
he is perfectly capable
1734
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:15,444
of being honestly
anti-Semitic, yes?
1735
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,405
He's holding those views
and expressing those views
1736
01:30:19,480 --> 01:30:21,721
because they are indeed his views?
1737
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:24,565
Well, yes.
1738
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:28,607
And so it seems to me, if it comes down to it,
1739
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:31,769
that the anti-Semitism
1740
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:33,922
is a completely separate allegation
1741
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:36,766
and has precious little bearing
on your broader charge
1742
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:38,888
that he has manipulated the data?
1743
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:41,245
No, no, my Lord. No.
1744
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:43,243
The whole endeavor of the defense
1745
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:45,243
has been to prove that the two are connected.
1746
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:48,087
But he might believe what he is saying.
1747
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:50,040
That is the point.
1748
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:51,889
That is why it is so important.
1749
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:56,802
My Lord, if we know that
Mr. Irving is an anti-Semite,
1750
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:59,360
and if we know there is
no historical justification
1751
01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:00,771
for Holocaust denial,
1752
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,287
then surely it is no great stretch
1753
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,203
to see that the two are connected.
1754
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:17,202
Yes. Thank you.
1755
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:19,571
Carry on.
1756
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:25,165
What the fuck just happened?
1757
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:31,210
Anthony, what just happened?
1758
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:00,767
Well? How was it?
1759
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:05,762
I'll tell you what happened at the end.
1760
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:10,250
We summed up.
Irving summed up.
1761
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:15,121
And?
1762
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:16,536
And everyone kept saying, this is all great,
1763
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:19,928
everything's gonna be fine.
And then suddenly this judge,
1764
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,049
this unbelievable character
from Masterpiece Theatre...
1765
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:25,168
Oh, I like Masterpiece Theatre. I know.
1766
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:27,368
Anyway, at the last minute,
he looked up and he said,
1767
01:32:27,440 --> 01:32:30,887
'Well, you know, maybe
Irving actually believes it.
1768
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:33,566
'He's an anti-Semite
and he believes it.
1769
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:35,051
'You can't accuse someone of lying
1770
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:37,566
'if they genuinely believe what they're saying.'
1771
01:32:38,480 --> 01:32:39,845
That's crazy.
That's insane.
1772
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:41,968
And that's when I thought, 'I've been suckered.'
1773
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:44,004
I stared at this judge for eight weeks
1774
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:45,456
and I thought I was looking at wisdom,
1775
01:32:45,480 --> 01:32:48,165
but maybe I was just looking at prejudice.
1776
01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:54,003
Well, what can you do?
1777
01:32:54,480 --> 01:32:57,165
I just wait.
Just wait.
1778
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:09,002
And do they tell you the result in advance?
1779
01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:11,128
No. But my lawyers get told.
1780
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:14,205
What, they get told and they can't tell you?
You're kidding?
1781
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:16,931
Yeah. They get the verdict
24 hours in advance.
1782
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,128
To the minute. 09:00 a.m. the day before,
1783
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:21,282
to give 'em time to prepare a response.
1784
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:22,441
And what's worse,
1785
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:24,682
yeah, Irving gets it, too.
1786
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:26,723
Why? Because he's his own lawyer.
1787
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:28,564
So he's allowed it and I'm not.
1788
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:33,207
I think this trial is sending a chill
1789
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:35,681
through the community of 20th century historians.
1790
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:37,536
Which historian isn't thinking,
1791
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:39,927
'Would my work survive
this kind of scrutiny?'
1792
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:42,924
Show me one historian who has
not broken into a cold sweat
1793
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:45,128
at the thought of undergoing similar treatment.
1794
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:53,530
When people glibly say,
1795
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:55,808
'Oh, if I'd have been in Germany,
1796
01:33:55,880 --> 01:33:57,644
'I would never have collaborated,
1797
01:33:57,720 --> 01:33:58,881
'I'd have resisted,'
1798
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:01,889
I just wanna laugh.
1799
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:04,648
Do you have any idea
1800
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:07,690
how dangerous and difficult it was?
1801
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:13,005
Standing up to the enemy was arduous
1802
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:16,527
and uncertain and exhausting.
1803
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:20,889
But they had to do it.
1804
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:26,402
Only in hindsight that things get called heroic.
1805
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:30,640
At the time you're just afraid.
1806
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,446
Afraid of how things will turn out.
1807
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:46,406
Deborah Lipstadt.
1808
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:48,325
Ah, good. There you are.
1809
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:49,681
Anthony.
1810
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:52,491
Yeah. Just to say we've been told
to expect the verdict on Tuesday.
1811
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:55,370
On Tuesday?
Are you sure?
1812
01:34:55,440 --> 01:34:57,960
You know, I don't think they'd
have said it unless it were true.
1813
01:34:58,040 --> 01:34:59,256
I've been wondering if we could
1814
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:01,044
work out some kind of code.
1815
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:03,536
Like I call and say, 'How's the
weather?' and you say, 'Good.'
1816
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:05,085
Meaning...
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
1817
01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:07,970
Or you say the weather's bad
and that would mean...
1818
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:09,769
Only, of course, I'd be disbarred.
1819
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:11,960
I'd never be allowed to
practice law in England again.
1820
01:35:12,440 --> 01:35:15,330
Oh, well, there'd be an upside.
1821
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:16,881
Ah.
1822
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:53,126
Yes?
1823
01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:56,211
That one.
1824
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:01,286
Deborah.
1825
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:04,680
Well?
1826
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:16,328
Out of the way,
please. Out of the way.
1827
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:18,129
Guilty! Filthy Jew!
1828
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:20,165
Jewish scum!
1829
01:36:34,480 --> 01:36:35,481
Shame on you!
1830
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:43,771
Shame on you, Nazi lover!
1831
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:50,805
David! David! David!
1832
01:37:05,440 --> 01:37:06,441
Oh.
1833
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:13,125
- My Lord.
- Hmm?
1834
01:37:25,440 --> 01:37:27,681
Thank you, Jay.
One per person. Thank you.
1835
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:28,921
Ladies first, I think.
1836
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:30,365
There you go. Thank you.
1837
01:37:30,440 --> 01:37:32,044
One per person.
Thank you. I'll do it.
1838
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:35,169
This massive
334-page document,
1839
01:37:35,240 --> 01:37:37,846
which does not yet disclose the final verdict,
1840
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:39,922
is studiously
even-handed.
1841
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:42,168
It is difficult to say on which side
1842
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:44,402
Mr. Justice Gray's
decision will land.
1843
01:37:44,480 --> 01:37:46,721
It praises Irving's
skill as a military historian,
1844
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:49,371
while at the same time drawing attention to flaws
1845
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:51,249
in some of his reasoning.
1846
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:07,890
Court rise.
1847
01:38:22,240 --> 01:38:25,562
David Irving
v. Penguin Books Limited
1848
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:27,369
and Deborah Lipstadt.
1849
01:38:29,480 --> 01:38:31,642
I shall read my judgment.
1850
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:45,207
It appears to me that the correct
1851
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:47,851
and inevitable inference must be
1852
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:50,924
that the falsification of the historical record
1853
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:55,688
was deliberate and that Irving was
motivated by a desire to present events
1854
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:59,287
in a manner consistent with
his own ideological beliefs,
1855
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:01,886
even if that involved distortion
1856
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:05,089
and manipulation of historical evidence.
1857
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:08,010
In the result, therefore,
1858
01:39:08,080 --> 01:39:11,687
the defense of justification, succeeds.
1859
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:15,329
The court finds for the defendants.
1860
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:18,010
Court rise.
1861
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:29,326
I can't believe it! JAMES: It's true.
1862
01:39:29,440 --> 01:39:30,885
Well clone. Well clone.
1863
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:32,530
Well done.
1864
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:36,681
Maze! Tov!
1865
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:38,091
You've been brilliant.
Mazel Tov!
1866
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:39,486
You didn't let me say anything.
1867
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:40,766
I didn't say a thing.
1868
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:42,325
Well, nor did I.
Think how I feel.
1869
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:44,482
It's not true.
It's not true, Deborah.
1870
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:45,641
It was your book.
1871
01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:47,245
Your book held up in every aspect.
1872
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:48,970
Every aspect. Every detail.
1873
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:50,883
We defended it.
But it was the book.
1874
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:52,485
- I
- know, I know, I know...
1875
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:56,446
- Thank you for all your hard work.
- You are so welcome.
1876
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:57,846
It was like a dream job.
1877
01:39:57,920 --> 01:40:00,844
Well clone. Well clone.
1878
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:04,611
Laura. Genius!
1879
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:08,284
This has been called one of the most
1880
01:40:08,360 --> 01:40:10,203
crushing libel judgments in history.
1881
01:40:10,280 --> 01:40:11,611
The judge called Mr. Irving
1882
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:13,409
an anti-Semite, a racist,
1883
01:40:13,480 --> 01:40:15,403
and a distorter of history.
1884
01:40:15,880 --> 01:40:18,042
Can you tell us how you're feeling at this time?
1885
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:20,088
I feel terrific.
This is a wonderful day.
1886
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:21,440
A wonderful day for everyone.
1887
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,126
Deborah. Deborah, how
do you feel about today's verdict?
1888
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:27,569
Now you can speak.
1889
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:28,971
Great.
1890
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:30,644
Can you expand at all on that?
1891
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:34,685
Come on. Come on...
Come to the press conference!
1892
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:37,640
We saw this
as a free-speech issue.
1893
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:39,171
Penguin defended
D.H. Lawrence.
1894
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:40,605
We defended Salman Rushdie.
1895
01:40:40,720 --> 01:40:41,801
It was inconceivable
1896
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:43,370
we wouldn't defend Deborah Lipstadt.
1897
01:40:43,440 --> 01:40:44,771
She's here. She's here.
1898
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:52,528
Miss Lipstadt? Miss Lipstadt?
1899
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:53,806
Deborah?
1900
01:40:56,120 --> 01:40:58,088
Can I ask, do you have any regrets
1901
01:40:58,160 --> 01:40:59,571
about bringing the case?
1902
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:01,296
I don't know how to say this often enough,
1903
01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:02,810
I didn't bring the case.
1904
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:04,564
Mr. Irving did.
1905
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:06,642
Although I'm not sure he realized
1906
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:09,200
when he agreed to a trial by a single judge,
1907
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:10,776
that it would mean a written judgment.
1908
01:41:10,800 --> 01:41:14,088
This judgment is gonna stand against him forever.
1909
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:16,856
Now, some people are saying
that the result of this trial
1910
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:18,803
will threaten free speech.
1911
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:20,370
I don't accept that.
1912
01:41:20,440 --> 01:41:22,442
I'm not attacking free speech.
1913
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:25,091
On the contrary, I've been defending it
1914
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:27,083
against someone who wanted to abuse it.
1915
01:41:27,480 --> 01:41:30,484
Freedom of speech means you
can say whatever you want.
1916
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:32,562
What you can't do is lie,
1917
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:35,450
and then expect not to be
held accountable for it.
1918
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:38,001
Not all opinions are equal
1919
01:41:38,680 --> 01:41:39,886
and some things happen,
1920
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:42,290
just like we say they do.
1921
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:43,721
Slavery happened.
1922
01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:45,689
The Black Death happened.
1923
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:47,371
The Earth is round.
1924
01:41:47,440 --> 01:41:50,284
The ice caps are melting and Elvis is not alive.
1925
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:52,966
Miss Lipstadt?
1926
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:55,641
You've conducted yourself with dignity
1927
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:56,767
throughout the trial.
1928
01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:59,360
Thank you. Uh, but I know what that means.
1929
01:41:59,440 --> 01:42:02,011
That's code in England for 'I've shut up,'
1930
01:42:02,080 --> 01:42:04,731
and I don't promise to shut up in the future.
1931
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,124
Miss Lipstadt, how convinced were you
1932
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:09,851
that this trial was going to
have a good outcome for you?
1933
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:14,530
Um, well, before I came to London,
1934
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:17,649
I was definitely not convinced
that a court of law
1935
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:20,564
was a good place to investigate historical truth.
1936
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:22,721
But...
1937
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:27,645
I underestimated the value of a team.
1938
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:29,924
Of real teamwork.
1939
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:32,924
And it turns out it's not a bad place.
1940
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:37,327
As long as you have great
lawyers with great passion.
1941
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:41,564
And, uh, my God, did I have great lawyers.
1942
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:47,969
Miss Lipstadt, if you could say
1943
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:50,407
something now to David Irving,
1944
01:42:50,480 --> 01:42:51,481
what would you say?
1945
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:55,171
I wouldn't say anything to David Irving.
1946
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:58,642
I would say something to the
survivors and to the murdered.
1947
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:00,370
And I would say...
1948
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:04,770
'You were remembered.
1949
01:43:05,440 --> 01:43:08,523
'The voice of
suffering was heard.'
1950
01:43:18,920 --> 01:43:20,922
You really are quite good at this.
1951
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:25,966
Thank you.
1952
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:33,204
I think if you look at the judgment closely,
1953
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:36,124
you'll see there are all sorts
of things there In my favor.
1954
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:38,802
You're not seriously suggesting
1955
01:43:38,880 --> 01:43:41,087
that this judgment supports you?
1956
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:44,130
Well, plainly I ran rings round the defense.
1957
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:47,249
My only regret is I didn't use
a mallet of sufficient caliber
1958
01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:50,051
to ram my case into the thick skull of the judge.
1959
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:52,970
Mr. Irving,
what people want to know
1960
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:55,924
is whether, on the basis of this judgment,
1961
01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:59,442
you will now stop denying the Holocaust.
1962
01:44:02,440 --> 01:44:05,523
Me? Stop? Good Lord, no.
1963
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:07,530
Despite the fact that
1964
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:09,682
the judge says,
'It appears to me...'
1965
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:11,808
Hello?
Deborah?
1966
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:13,810
He seems to be saying he won.
1967
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:17,043
I know. He used
to be a Holocaust denier,
1968
01:44:17,120 --> 01:44:18,256
and now he's a verdict denier.
1969
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:19,936
The fact that she didn't even dare to appear
1970
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:21,976
tells you everything you need
to know about Miss Lipstadt.
1971
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:23,161
Let's just turn him off.
1972
01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:24,924
I don't think her Brooklyn accent
1973
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:26,650
would have endeared her to the court.
1974
01:44:26,920 --> 01:44:28,524
It's Queens.