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MY DINNER WITH ANDRE
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The life of a playwright is tough.
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It's not easy,
as some people seem to think.
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You work hard writing plays,
and nobody puts them on!
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You take up other lines of work
to try to make a living...
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I became an actor...
and people don't hire you!
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So you just spend your days
doing the errands of your trade.
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Today I had to be up by ten in the morning
to make some important phone calls.
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Then I'd gone to the stationery
store to buy envelopes.
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Then to the xerox shop:
there were dozens of things to do.
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By five o'clock I'd finally made it to the post
office and mailed off several copies of my plays,
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meanwhile checking constantly
with my answering service
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to see if my agent had
called with any acting work.
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In the morning, the mailbox had
just been stuffed with bills!
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What was I supposed to do?
How was I supposed to pay them?
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After all I was already doing my best!
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I've lived in this city all my life.
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I grew up on the upper east side, and when I was
ten years old I was rich! I was an aristocrat...
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riding around in taxis, surrounded by comfort,
and all I thought about was art and music.
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Now I'm thirty-six,
and all I think about is $money$!
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It was now seven o'clock and I would
have liked nothing better than to
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go home and have my girlfriend Debby
cook me a nice delicious dinner.
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But for the last several years
our financial circumstances
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have forced Debby to work three
nights a week as a waitress.
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After all, somebody had
to bring in a little money!
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So I was on my own.
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But the worse thing of all was that I had
been trapped by an odd series of circumstances
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into agreeing to have dinner with a man
I'd been avoiding literally for years.
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His name was Andr� Gregory. At one time
he'd been a very close friend of mine,
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as well as my most valued
colleague in the theater.
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In fact, he was the man
who had first discovered me,
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and put one of my plays
on the professional stage.
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When I had know Andr�, he'd been at the
height of his career as a theater director.
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The amazing work he did with
his company, the Manhattan Project,
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had just stunned audiences,
throughout the world!
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But then something had happened to Andr�.
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He'd dropped out of the theater.
He'd sort of disappeared!
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For months at a time his family seemed only to
know he was traveling in some odd place, like Tibet,
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which was really weird, because
he loved his wife and children.
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He never used to like
to leave home at all!
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Or else you'd hear that someone
had met him at a party and
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he'd been telling people that he'd
talked with trees, or something like that?
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Obviously something terrible
had happened to Andr�.
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The whole idea of meeting him made me very nervous.
I mean, I really wasn't up for that sort of thing.
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I had problems of my own!
I mean, I couldn't help Andr�!
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Was I supposed to be a doctor, or what?!
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- Hello.
- Hello.
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Thank you.
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Yes, sir.
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Uh... sir. My name is Wallace Shawn.
I'm expected at the table of Andr� Gregory.
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That table will be a moment, sir.
If you like, you may have a drink at the bar.
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- Good evening, sir.
- Uh, could I have a club soda, please?
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I'm sorry, sir, we only serve
Source de P�rion [Perrier?]
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That would be fine, thank you.
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When I'd called Andr� and
he'd suggested that we meet
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in this particular restaurant,
I'd been rather surprised.
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Because Andr�'s tastes
used to be very ascetic.
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Even though people have always known
that he has some money somewhere.
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I mean, how the hell else could he
have been flying off to Asia and so on
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and still have been supporting his family?
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The reason I was meeting Andr� was that
an acquaintance of mine, George Grassfield,
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had called me and just
insisted that I had to see him.
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Apparently, George had been walking his dog
in an odd section of town the night before,
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and he'd suddenly come upon Andr� leaning
against a crumbling old building, and sobbing.
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Andr� had explained to George
that he'd just been watching
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the Ingmar Bergman movie Autumn Sonata
about twenty-five blocks away,
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and he'd been seized by a fit
of ungovernable crying when
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the character played by Ingrid Bergman had said,
"I could always live in my art, but never in my life."
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Wally!!
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I remember when I first started
working with Andr�'s company,
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I couldn't get over the way the actors
would hug when they greeted each other.
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Wow, now I'm really in the theater!
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- Well! You look terrific!
- Well!! I feel terrible!
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Good evening, sir.
Nice to see you again.
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Thank you! Good evening.
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- I think I'll have a spritzer, if I may.
- Yes, sir.
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Thank you.
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I was feeling incredibly nervous. I wasn't sure
I could stick through an entire meal with him!
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So we talked about this and that.
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He told me a few things about Jerzy Grotowski,
the great Polish theater director,
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who was a friend and almost
like a kind of a guru of Andr�'s.
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He'd also dropped out of the theater.
Grotowski was a pretty unusual character himself.
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At one time he'd been quite fat;
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then he'd lost an incredible amount of weight,
and become very thin, and grown a beard!
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- Your table is ready...
- Oh!
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- ... if you feel like sitting down.
- Oh!
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Thank you.
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I was beginning to realize that the
only way to make this evening bearable
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would be to ask Andr� a few questions.
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Asking questions always relaxes me.
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In fact, I sometimes think that my secret profession
is that I'm a private investigator, a detective.
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I always enjoy finding out about people.
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Even if they're an absolute agony,
I always find it very... interesting.
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- By the way, is he still thin?
- What?
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- Grotowski. Is he still thin?
- Oh! Absolutely.
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Oh, waiter? Uh, I think we
can do without this. Thank you.
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- What about this one?
- "Seven swank shrimp" [?]!
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Are you ready for your order?
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Uh, yes. The aragna kalouska[?],
how do you prepare that?
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Andr� seemed to know an awful lot about
the menu. I didn't understand a word of it.
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Very good, I think.
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Hum. No, I think I'll have
the cailles aux raisins...
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- Very good.
- ... quail.
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Oh, quails! I'll have that as well.
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- Two, great!
- Great!
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And then I think to begin with,
a terrine de poisson.
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Yes.
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- What is that?
- It's a sort of p�t�, light, made of fish.
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- Does it have bones in it?
- No bones. Very safe.
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Hunh. Well, uh. What is the,
uh, "vromborova polevka"?
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- It's a potato soup. It's quite delicious.
- Oh, well, that's great! I'll have that.
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- Thank you.
- Thank you very much.
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Well! Now when was the last
time that we saw each other?
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So we talked for a while about my writing
and my acting, and about my girlfriend Debby.
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And we talked about his wife, Chiquita,
and his two children, Nicholas and Marina.
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...and I stayed back in New York...
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Finally, I got around to asking him what
he'd been up to in the last few years.
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...and, God! I'm just dying to hear it!
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- Really?
- Really!
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At first, he seemed a little
reluctant to go into it.
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So I just kept asking, and
finally he started to answer.
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...conference on paratheatrical work, then.
And this must have been about five years ago.
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And Grotowski and I were walking
along Fifth Avenue and we were talking.
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You see, he'd invited me to come
to teach that summer in Poland...
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you know, to teach a workshop to
actors and directors and whatever.
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And I told him that I
didn't want to come because,
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really, I'd nothing left to
teach. I'd nothing left to say.
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I didn't know anything.
I couldn't teach anything.
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Exercises meant nothing to me any more.
Working on scenes from plays seemed ridiculous.
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I didn't know what to do.
I mean, I just couldn't do it.
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So he said: "Why don't you tell me
anything you'd like to have, if you did
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a workshop for me, no matter how
outrageous, and maybe I can give it to you."
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So I said: "Well, if you could give me forty
Jewish women who speak neither English nor French,
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either women who've been in the theater for a
long time and want to leave it but don't know why,
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or young women who love the theater but have
never seen a theater that they could love, and if
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these women could all play the trumpet or the
harp, and if I could work in a forest, I'd come!"
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A week later, two weeks later,
he called me from Poland
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and he said: "Well, forty Jewish
women is little hard to find!"
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But he said: "I do have forty women.
They all pretty much fit the definition."
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And he said: "I also have some very interesting
men, but you don't have to work with them.
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These are all people who have in common the
fact that they're questioning the theater.
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They don't all play the trumpet or the
harp, but they all play a musical instrument,
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and none of them speak English."
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And he'd found me a forest, Wally,
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and the only inhabitants of this
forest were some wild boar and a hermit!
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So that was an offer I couldn't refuse!
I had to go.
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So, I went to Poland. And it was a
wonderful group of young men and women.
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And the forest he had found
us was absolutely magic.
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You know, it was a huge forest, I
mean, the trees were so large that
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four or five people linking their arms
couldn't get their arms around the trees?
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So we were camped out beside the
ruins of this tiny little castle,
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and we would eat around this great stone
slab that served as a sort of a table.
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And our schedule was that usually
we would start work around sunset,
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and then generally we'd work until about
six or seven in the morning, and then,
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because the Poles love to sing and dance, we'd sing
and dance until about ten or eleven in the morning,
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and then we'd have our food, which was
generally bread and jam, cheese and tea.
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Then we'd sleep from
around noon to sunset.
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Now technically, of course, technically
the situation is a very interesting one,
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'cause if you find yourself in a forest with a
group of forty people who don't speak your language
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then all your moorings are gone.
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What do you mean, exactly?
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Well, what we'd do is just sit there and wait
for someone to have an impulse to do something.
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Now in a way that's something
like a theatrical improvisation.
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I mean, you know, if you were a
director working on a play by Chekhov,
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you might have the actors playing
the mother, the son or the uncle
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all sit around in a room and do a
made-up scene that isn't in the play.
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For instance you might say to them: all right,
let's say that it's a rainy Sunday afternoon
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on Sorin's estate and you're all
trapped in the drawing room together;
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and then everyone would improvise,
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saying and doing what their character
might say and do in that circumstance.
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Except that in this type of improvisation, the
kind we did in Poland, the theme is oneself.
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So, you follow the same
law of improvisation,
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which is that you do whatever your
impulse as the character tells you to do,
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but in this case, you're the character.
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So there's no imaginary situation to hide behind.
And there's no other person to hide behind.
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What you're doing in fact is
you're asking those same questions
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that Stanislavsky said the actor should
constantly ask himself as a character:
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"Who am I? Why am I here? Where do
I come from? And where am I going?"
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But instead of applying them to a r�le,
you apply them to yourself.
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Or to look at it a little differently: in a way
it's like going right back to childhood where
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a group of children simply come into a room, are
brought into a room, without toys, and begin to play.
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Grown-ups were learning
how to play again!
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So you would all sit together somewhere,
and you would play in some way,
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but what would you actually do?
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Well, I'll give you a good example.
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You see, we worked together for a week in
the city before we went off to our forest.
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Of course, Grotowski was there
in the city, too, and
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I heard that every night he conducted something
called a beehive, and I loved the sound of it,
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so a night or two before we were
supposed to go off to the country,
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I grabbed him by the collar and I said:
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"Listen, about this beehive: you know,
I'd kind of like to participate in one.
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Just... instinctively I feel it
would be something interesting."
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And he said: "Well, certainly! In fact...
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why don't you with your group lead
the beehive instead of participating."
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Well, you know, Wally, I got very nervous, you
know, and I said: "Well, what is a beehive?"
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He said: "Well, a beehive is at 8:00
a hundred strangers come into a room."
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And I said: "Yes?"
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And he said: "Yes, and
whatever happens is a beehive."
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And I said: "Yes, but what am I supposed
to do?" He said: "That's up to you."
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I said: "No, no! I really don't want
to do this. I'll just participate."
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And he said:
"No, no. You lead the beehive!"
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Well, I was terrified, Wally. I mean,
in a way I felt on stage. I did it anyway.
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God! Well, tell me about it.
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You see, there was this song.
I have a tape of it.
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I can play it for you one day.
And it's just unbelievably beautiful.
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You see, one of the women in our group knew
a few fragments of this song of Saint Francis,
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and it's a song in which you thank God for
your eyes and you thank God for your heart
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and you thank God for your friends
and you thank God for your life.
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00:15:42,981 --> 00:15:47,757
And it repeats itself over and over again,
and this became our theme song.
210
00:15:47,758 --> 00:15:51,831
I really must play this thing for you
one day because you just can't believe
211
00:15:51,866 --> 00:15:57,737
that a group of people who don't how to
sing could create something so beautiful.
212
00:15:57,772 --> 00:16:03,220
So I decided that when the
people arrive for the beehive
213
00:16:03,255 --> 00:16:06,405
that our group would already be there
singing this very beautiful song,
214
00:16:06,406 --> 00:16:09,465
and that we would simply
sing it over and over again.
215
00:16:09,657 --> 00:16:15,062
One of the people decided to bring
her very large teddy bear, you know,
216
00:16:15,063 --> 00:16:16,574
I think she was a little
afraid of this event,
217
00:16:16,575 --> 00:16:19,388
and somebody wanted to bring a sheet
218
00:16:19,423 --> 00:16:24,092
and somebody else wanted to bring a large bowl
of water in case people got hot or thirsty,
219
00:16:24,093 --> 00:16:30,054
and somebody suggested we have candles, that
there be no artificial light, but candle light.
220
00:16:30,055 --> 00:16:33,544
And I remember watching people
preparing for this evening.
221
00:16:33,545 --> 00:16:35,725
Of course there was no
make-up and no costumes,
222
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,688
but it was exactly the way that
people prepare for a performance.
223
00:16:38,689 --> 00:16:43,210
You know, people were sort of taking off their
jewelry and their watches and stowing it away,
224
00:16:43,211 --> 00:16:44,821
and making sure it's all secure.
225
00:16:44,822 --> 00:16:48,347
And then slowly people arrived, the
way they would arrive at the theater,
226
00:16:48,348 --> 00:16:51,114
in ones and twos and tens and
fifteens, and what-have-you,
227
00:16:51,115 --> 00:16:54,247
and we were just sitting there and we
were singing this very beautiful song,
228
00:16:54,248 --> 00:16:57,622
and people started to sit with
us and started to learn the song.
229
00:16:57,623 --> 00:17:02,546
Now, there is of course, as in
any performance or improvisation,
230
00:17:02,581 --> 00:17:04,785
instants for one thing
are going to get boring.
231
00:17:04,786 --> 00:17:09,445
So, at a certain point, it may have only
taken an hour to get there, an hour and a half,
232
00:17:09,446 --> 00:17:13,704
I suddenly grabbed this teddy
bear and threw it in the air!
233
00:17:13,705 --> 00:17:17,302
At which a hundred and forty or
thirty people suddenly exploded!
234
00:17:17,303 --> 00:17:20,315
You know, it was like a Jackson
Pollock painting, you know,
235
00:17:20,350 --> 00:17:24,942
human beings exploded out of this tight
little circle that was singing this song,
236
00:17:24,943 --> 00:17:27,744
and before I knew it there were
two circles dancing, you know.
237
00:17:27,745 --> 00:17:29,414
One dancing clockwise,
238
00:17:29,449 --> 00:17:33,714
the other dancing counterclockwise,
with this rhythm mostly from the waist down,
239
00:17:33,749 --> 00:17:37,980
in other words like an American Indian dance,
with this thumping, persistent rhythm.
240
00:17:42,306 --> 00:17:46,987
Now, you could easily see, 'cause we're
talking about group trance, where the line
241
00:17:47,022 --> 00:17:50,456
between something like this and
something like Hitler's Nuremberg rallies
242
00:17:50,491 --> 00:17:52,833
is in a way a very thin line.
243
00:17:54,780 --> 00:17:55,509
Anyway.
244
00:17:55,544 --> 00:17:58,903
After about an hour of
this wild, hypnotic dancing,
245
00:17:58,938 --> 00:18:02,351
Grotowski and I found ourselves sitting opposite
each other in the middle of this whole thing,
246
00:18:02,386 --> 00:18:04,218
and we threw the teddy bear back and forth.
247
00:18:04,253 --> 00:18:07,007
You know, on one level you
could say this was childish.
248
00:18:07,008 --> 00:18:11,464
And I gave the teddy bear suck suddenly at my
breast, and then I threw the teddy bear to him,
249
00:18:11,465 --> 00:18:15,737
and he gave it suck at his breast, and then the
teddy bear was thrown up into the air again,
250
00:18:15,738 --> 00:18:21,887
at which there was another explosion of
form into... something [salade de mots]
251
00:18:21,888 --> 00:18:25,498
something like a kaleidoscope,
like a human kaleidoscope,
252
00:18:25,533 --> 00:18:29,109
the evening was made up of
shiftings of the kaleidoscope.
253
00:18:30,113 --> 00:18:32,028
Now, the only other thing that I remember...
254
00:18:32,029 --> 00:18:34,239
other than that I was constantly
trying to guide this thing,
255
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:39,266
which was always involved with either movement,
rhythm, repetition or song, or chanting,
256
00:18:39,267 --> 00:18:43,166
'cause two people in my group had brought
musical instruments, a flute and a drum,
257
00:18:43,167 --> 00:18:44,591
which of course are sacred instruments...
258
00:18:44,592 --> 00:18:50,966
was that sometimes the room would break up into
six or seven different things going on at once,
259
00:18:51,001 --> 00:18:53,720
you know, six or seven
different improvisations,
260
00:18:53,755 --> 00:18:57,713
all of which seemed in some
way related to each other.
261
00:18:57,714 --> 00:19:00,859
It was like a magnificent cobweb.
262
00:19:02,372 --> 00:19:06,701
And at one point, I noticed that
Grotowski was at the center of one group
263
00:19:06,702 --> 00:19:09,377
huddled around a bunch of candles
that they had gathered together,
264
00:19:09,378 --> 00:19:12,696
and like a little child fascinated by fire,
265
00:19:12,697 --> 00:19:16,676
I saw that he had his hand right in
the flame and was holding it there.
266
00:19:16,677 --> 00:19:19,558
And as I approached his group,
I wondered if I could do it.
267
00:19:19,559 --> 00:19:24,961
I put my left hand in the flame, and I found
I could hold it there for as long as I liked,
268
00:19:24,962 --> 00:19:27,136
and there was no burn, and no pain.
269
00:19:27,137 --> 00:19:31,721
But when I tried to put my right hand in the
flame, I couldn't hold it there for a second.
270
00:19:31,722 --> 00:19:36,892
So Grotowski said: "If it burns, try to
change some little thing in yourself."
271
00:19:36,893 --> 00:19:39,062
And I tried to do that. Didn't work.
272
00:19:40,288 --> 00:19:45,038
Then, I remember a very, very
beautiful procession with the sheet,
273
00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:47,919
and there was somebody being
carried below the sheet,
274
00:19:47,954 --> 00:19:50,764
you know, the sheet was like some
great biblical canopy,
275
00:19:50,799 --> 00:19:54,867
and the entire group was weaving
around the room and chanting.
276
00:19:56,058 --> 00:20:00,833
And then, at one point, people were
dancing, and I was dancing with a girl
277
00:20:00,834 --> 00:20:06,147
and suddenly our hands began vibrating near
each other, like this, vibrating! vibrating!
278
00:20:06,148 --> 00:20:09,751
and we went down to our knees and
suddenly I was sobbing in her arms
279
00:20:09,786 --> 00:20:14,081
and she was sort of cradling me in her
arms, and then she started to cry, too,
280
00:20:14,082 --> 00:20:18,948
and then we just hugged each other for a
moment and then we joined the dance again.
281
00:20:19,748 --> 00:20:25,985
And then at a certain point, hours later, we
returned to the singing of the song of St Francis,
282
00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:29,416
and that was the end of the beehive.
283
00:20:29,417 --> 00:20:34,942
And then again, when it was over, it was just
like the theater, after a performance, you know:
284
00:20:34,943 --> 00:20:38,003
people sort of put on their
earrings and their wristwatches
285
00:20:38,004 --> 00:20:42,950
and we went off to the railroad station to
drink a lot of beer and have a good dinner!
286
00:20:44,208 --> 00:20:48,808
Oh, and there was one girl who wasn't in
our group, but who just wouldn't leave,
287
00:20:48,809 --> 00:20:51,234
so we took her along with us!
288
00:20:52,016 --> 00:20:52,984
Hunh!
289
00:20:59,304 --> 00:21:03,096
God! Well, tell me some of the
other things you did with your group.
290
00:21:03,260 --> 00:21:08,370
Well. Oh, I remember once, when we were in
the city, we tried doing an improvisation,
291
00:21:08,405 --> 00:21:12,841
you know, the kind that I used to do in New York:
everybody's supposed to be on an airplane,
292
00:21:12,876 --> 00:21:15,588
and they've all learned from the pilot
that there's something wrong with the motor.
293
00:21:15,589 --> 00:21:21,150
But what was unusual about this improvisation
was that two people who participated in it...
294
00:21:21,615 --> 00:21:22,689
...fell in love!
295
00:21:22,690 --> 00:21:24,343
You know, they've in fact married!
296
00:21:24,344 --> 00:21:29,169
And when we were... yeah!... out
of fear of being on this plane,
297
00:21:29,204 --> 00:21:32,719
they fell in love, thinking they
were going to die at any moment!
298
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,163
And when we went to the
forest, these two disappeared,
299
00:21:36,198 --> 00:21:41,670
because they understood the experiment so well that
they realized that to go off together in the forest
300
00:21:41,705 --> 00:21:46,161
was much more important than any kind of
experiment the group could do as a whole.
301
00:21:46,162 --> 00:21:51,949
So, about halfway through the week, we
stumbled into a clearing in the forest,
302
00:21:51,950 --> 00:21:57,120
and the two of them were fast asleep in
each other's arms. It was around dawn.
303
00:21:57,121 --> 00:22:01,431
And we put flowers on them, to let them
know we'd been there, and then we crept away.
304
00:22:01,432 --> 00:22:06,474
And then on the last day of our stay in the forest
these two showed up and they shook me by my hands
305
00:22:06,509 --> 00:22:10,790
and they thanked me very much for the
wonderful work they'd been able to do, you see!
306
00:22:10,917 --> 00:22:14,161
So. They understood what it was about.
307
00:22:14,196 --> 00:22:18,899
I mean, that of course poses the
question of what was it about.
308
00:22:18,934 --> 00:22:22,897
But it has something to do with living.
309
00:22:25,254 --> 00:22:27,903
And then on the final day
of our stay in the forest,
310
00:22:27,904 --> 00:22:30,364
the whole group did something
so wonderful for me, Wally.
311
00:22:30,365 --> 00:22:35,288
They arranged a christening, a baptism!, for
me. And they filled the castle with flowers,
312
00:22:35,289 --> 00:22:41,902
and it was just a miracle of light, because they
had literally set up hundreds of candles and torches;
313
00:22:41,903 --> 00:22:44,470
I mean, no church could
have looked more beautiful.
314
00:22:44,471 --> 00:22:48,352
There was a simple ceremony, and one
of them played to r�le of my godmother
315
00:22:48,353 --> 00:22:53,468
and another played the r�le of my godfather, and
I was given a new name: they called me Yendrush.
316
00:22:53,469 --> 00:22:58,544
And some of the people took it completely
seriously, and some of them found it funny,
317
00:22:58,545 --> 00:23:02,976
but I really felt that I had a new name.
318
00:23:03,564 --> 00:23:07,805
And then we had an enormous feast
with blueberries picked from the field
319
00:23:07,806 --> 00:23:12,701
and chocolate someone had gone a great distance
to buy, and raspberry soup, rabbit stew,
320
00:23:12,702 --> 00:23:18,548
and we sang Polish songs and Greek songs, and
everybody danced for the rest of the night!
321
00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:19,758
Hunh!
322
00:23:19,793 --> 00:23:20,798
Oh, I have a picture.
323
00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:26,271
See, this was...
324
00:23:27,358 --> 00:23:30,239
Oh, yeah: this was me in the forest. See?
325
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,240
God!
326
00:23:31,241 --> 00:23:33,237
That's what I felt like.
327
00:23:36,071 --> 00:23:38,004
That's the state I was in!
328
00:23:38,005 --> 00:23:43,254
God! Yeah, I remember George told
me he had seen you around that time.
329
00:23:43,255 --> 00:23:45,993
He said you looked like
you'd come back from a war.
330
00:23:45,994 --> 00:23:49,738
Yeah, I remember meeting him. He
asked me a lot of friendly questions.
331
00:23:49,739 --> 00:23:52,288
I think I called you up,
too, that summer, didn't I?
332
00:23:52,289 --> 00:23:56,553
Hum. I think I was out of town.
333
00:23:56,554 --> 00:24:00,514
Yeah, well, most people I met thought
there was something wrong with me.
334
00:24:00,515 --> 00:24:03,369
They didn't say that but I could
tell that that was what they thought.
335
00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:07,927
But, you see, what I think I experienced...
336
00:24:07,928 --> 00:24:16,377
...was for the first time in my life,
to know what it means to be truly alive.
337
00:24:16,378 --> 00:24:20,868
Now that's very frightening, because with
that comes an immediate awareness of death.
338
00:24:20,869 --> 00:24:22,272
'Cause they go hand in hand.
339
00:24:22,273 --> 00:24:25,743
You know, the kind of impulse that led to
Walt Whitman, that led to Leaves of Grass,
340
00:24:25,744 --> 00:24:31,213
you know, that feeling of being connected to
everything means to also be connected to death.
341
00:24:31,214 --> 00:24:33,298
And that's pretty scary.
342
00:24:33,299 --> 00:24:39,498
But, I really felt as if I were floating above
the ground, not walking, and I could do things:
343
00:24:39,499 --> 00:24:45,615
I'd go out to the highway and watch the lights
go from red to green and think: "How wonderful!"
344
00:24:45,968 --> 00:24:50,764
And then one day in the early fall I
was out in the country walking in a field
345
00:24:50,765 --> 00:24:54,456
and I suddenly heard a
voice say "Little Prince"!
346
00:24:54,457 --> 00:24:59,304
Now, of course,The Little Prince was a book that
I always thought of as disgusting childish treacle,
347
00:24:59,305 --> 00:25:02,274
but still I thought, well, you know,
if a voice comes to me in a field,
348
00:25:02,275 --> 00:25:06,766
I mean, this was the first voice I have ever
heard, maybe I should go and read the book!
349
00:25:06,767 --> 00:25:11,899
Now, that same morning I got a letter from a
young woman who had been in my group in Poland,
350
00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:14,115
and in her letter she had
written: "You have dominated me."
351
00:25:14,116 --> 00:25:17,692
You know, she spoke very awkward
English, so she'd gone to the dictionary
352
00:25:17,693 --> 00:25:22,506
and she'd crossed out the word "dominated" and
she'd said: "No, the correct word is tamed."
353
00:25:22,507 --> 00:25:25,545
And then when I went into town and
bought the book and started to read it,
354
00:25:25,546 --> 00:25:29,671
I saw that "taming" was the most
important word in the whole book!
355
00:25:29,672 --> 00:25:33,318
By the end of the book I was in
tears, I was so moved by the story.
356
00:25:34,037 --> 00:25:38,426
And then I went and tried to write an answer to her
letter, 'cause she had written me a very long letter,
357
00:25:38,427 --> 00:25:40,678
but I just couldn't find the right words,
358
00:25:40,679 --> 00:25:45,121
so finally I took my hand, I put it on a
piece of paper, I outlined it with a pen
359
00:25:45,122 --> 00:25:49,186
and I wrote in the center something like:
"Your heart is in my hand," something like that.
360
00:25:49,187 --> 00:25:51,647
And then I went over to
my brother's house to swim,
361
00:25:51,648 --> 00:25:54,163
'cause he lives nearby in
the country and he has a pool.
362
00:25:54,198 --> 00:25:56,607
And he wasn't home, and
I went into his library
363
00:25:56,642 --> 00:26:00,784
and he had bought at an auction the collected issues
of Minotaure, you know, the surrealist magazine?
364
00:26:00,785 --> 00:26:04,970
Oh! It's a great, great surrealist magazine
of the twenties and thirties, and I'd never...
365
00:26:04,971 --> 00:26:09,873
you know, I consider myself a bit of a surrealist,
I had never, ever seen a copy of Minotaure.
366
00:26:09,874 --> 00:26:15,768
And here they all were, bound, year after year?
So, at random, I picked one out, I opened it up
367
00:26:15,769 --> 00:26:21,420
and there was a full-page reproduction of the
letter A from Tenniel's Alice in Wonderland,
368
00:26:21,421 --> 00:26:24,606
and I thought: "Well, you know,
it's been a day of coincidence,
369
00:26:24,607 --> 00:26:28,014
but that's not unusual that the surrealists
would have been interested in Alice
370
00:26:28,015 --> 00:26:33,555
and I did a play of Alice." So, at
random, I opened to another page?
371
00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:37,266
And there were four hand prints!
372
00:26:37,267 --> 00:26:41,995
One was Andr� Breton, another was
Andr� Derain, the third was Andr�...
373
00:26:41,996 --> 00:26:46,655
I have it written down somewhere, it's not Malraux,
it's like... someone, another of the surrealists,
374
00:26:46,656 --> 00:26:53,861
all A's, and the fourth was Antoine de
Saint-Exup�ry who wroteThe Little Prince.
375
00:26:53,862 --> 00:26:59,173
And they'd shown these hand prints to some kind of
expert, without saying whose hands they belonged to,
376
00:26:59,174 --> 00:27:06,085
and under Exup�ry's, it said that he
was an artist with very powerful eyes,
377
00:27:06,086 --> 00:27:12,209
who was a tamer of wild animals! So I
thought, this is incredible, you know.
378
00:27:12,210 --> 00:27:20,326
And I looked back, to see when the issue came out?
It came out on the newsstands May 12th, 1934,
379
00:27:20,327 --> 00:27:24,439
and I was born during the
day of May 11th, 1934.
380
00:27:25,458 --> 00:27:31,030
So! That's what started me on
Saint-Exup�ry andThe Little Prince.
381
00:27:38,270 --> 00:27:44,833
Now, of course, today I think there's a very
fascistic thing underThe Little Prince, you know--
382
00:27:44,834 --> 00:27:52,282
well, no, I think there's a kind of SS
totalitarian sentimentality in there somewhere.
383
00:27:52,283 --> 00:27:56,805
You know, there's something, you
know, that...love of, uh...hum.
384
00:27:59,010 --> 00:28:02,831
That masculine love of a certain kind
of oily muscle, you know what I mean?
385
00:28:02,832 --> 00:28:10,595
I can't quite put my finger on it, but I can just
imagine some beautiful SS man lovingThe Little Prince.
386
00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:13,691
You know, I don't know why, but there's
something wrong with it. It stinks!
387
00:28:19,420 --> 00:28:23,705
Well, didn't George tell me that you were going
to do a play that was based onThe Little Prince?
388
00:28:23,706 --> 00:28:27,883
Hum. Well, what happened, Wally, was:
389
00:28:27,884 --> 00:28:33,820
that fall I was in New York and I met this
young Japanese Buddhist priest named Kozan,
390
00:28:33,821 --> 00:28:36,486
and I thought he was Puck, from
the Midsummer Night's Dream.
391
00:28:36,487 --> 00:28:40,361
You know, he had this beautiful delicate
smile. I thought he was the Little Prince.
392
00:28:40,362 --> 00:28:45,368
So, naturally I decided to go off to the
Sahara Desert to work on The Little Prince,
393
00:28:45,369 --> 00:28:48,411
with two actors and this Japanese monk!
- You did?
394
00:28:49,442 --> 00:28:54,331
Well, I mean, I was still in a very
peculiar state at that time, Wally.
395
00:28:54,332 --> 00:29:01,285
You know, I would look in the rear view mirror of
my car and see little birds flying out of my mouth.
396
00:29:01,765 --> 00:29:06,274
And I remember always being
exhausted in that period.
397
00:29:06,309 --> 00:29:10,711
I always felt weak, you know, I really
didn't know what was going on with me,
398
00:29:10,712 --> 00:29:17,160
I would just sit out there all alone in the country
for days, and do nothing but write in my diary,
399
00:29:17,161 --> 00:29:20,044
and I was always thinking about death.
400
00:29:20,045 --> 00:29:23,589
- Hum. But you went to the Sahara.
- Oh, yes!
401
00:29:23,624 --> 00:29:28,664
We went off into the desert, and we rode through
the desert on camels, and we rode and we rode
402
00:29:28,699 --> 00:29:33,260
and then at night we would walk out under
that enormous sky and look at the stars.
403
00:29:33,261 --> 00:29:37,607
I just kept thinking about the same things
that I was always thinking about at home.
404
00:29:37,608 --> 00:29:44,495
Particularly about Chiquita. In fact, I thought
about just about nothing but my marriage.
405
00:29:44,496 --> 00:29:48,961
And then I remember one incredibly
dark night being at an oasis,
406
00:29:48,962 --> 00:29:50,705
and there were palm trees moving in the wind;
407
00:29:50,706 --> 00:29:54,668
I could hear Kozan singing far
away in that beautiful bass voice,
408
00:29:54,669 --> 00:29:58,125
and I tried to follow
his voice along the sand.
409
00:29:58,126 --> 00:30:03,197
You see, I thought he had
something to teach me, Wally.
410
00:30:03,831 --> 00:30:05,915
And sometimes I would meditate with him.
411
00:30:05,950 --> 00:30:12,964
Sometimes I'd go off and meditate by myself.
You know, I would see images of Chiquita.
412
00:30:13,289 --> 00:30:18,483
Once, I actually saw her growing old and
her hair turning gray in front of my eyes
413
00:30:18,483 --> 00:30:23,811
and I would just wail and yell my
lungs out out there on the dunes.
414
00:30:26,715 --> 00:30:32,277
Anyway, the desert was pretty horrible!
It was pretty cold.
415
00:30:32,278 --> 00:30:35,780
We were searching for something but we
couldn't tell if we were finding anything.
416
00:30:35,781 --> 00:30:40,911
You know that once Kozan and I, we were
sitting on a dune and we just ate sand.
417
00:30:40,912 --> 00:30:43,101
Y'know, we weren't trying to be
funny. I started and he started.
418
00:30:43,102 --> 00:30:47,017
We just ate sand and threw up,
that's how desperate we were.
419
00:30:47,018 --> 00:30:50,882
In other words, we didn't know why we were
there, we didn't know what we were looking for,
420
00:30:50,883 --> 00:30:57,861
the entire thing seemed completely absurd, arid
and empty. It was like a last chance or something.
421
00:30:57,862 --> 00:30:58,862
Hum.
422
00:31:00,340 --> 00:31:02,429
So what happened then?
423
00:31:02,429 --> 00:31:07,273
Well. In those days, I
went completely on impulse.
424
00:31:07,274 --> 00:31:12,622
So on impulse I brought Kozan back to stay with
us in New York after we got back from the Sahara,
425
00:31:12,623 --> 00:31:17,476
and he stayed for six months. And he really
sort of took over the whole family in a way.
426
00:31:17,477 --> 00:31:18,477
What do you mean?
427
00:31:18,478 --> 00:31:22,173
Well, there was certainly a center
missing in the house at the time.
428
00:31:22,174 --> 00:31:26,931
There certainly wasn't a father, 'cause I
was always thinking about going off to Tibet,
429
00:31:26,932 --> 00:31:28,993
or doing God knows what!
430
00:31:28,994 --> 00:31:31,562
And so he taught the
whole family to meditate,
431
00:31:31,563 --> 00:31:35,864
and he told them all about Asia and the
East and his monastery and everything.
432
00:31:35,865 --> 00:31:40,682
He really captivated everybody
with an incredible bag of tricks.
433
00:31:40,683 --> 00:31:43,000
He had literally
developed himself, Wally,
434
00:31:43,001 --> 00:31:47,912
so that he could push on his fingers
and rise off out of his chair!
435
00:31:47,913 --> 00:31:52,101
I mean, he could literally go like this, you know,
push on his fingers and go into like a head stand,
436
00:31:52,102 --> 00:31:54,348
and just hold himself
there with two fingers!
437
00:31:54,349 --> 00:31:57,354
Or if Chiquita would suddenly
get a little tension in her neck,
438
00:31:57,355 --> 00:31:59,007
he'd immediately have
her down on the floor,
439
00:31:59,008 --> 00:32:03,891
he'd be walking up and down on her back
doing these unbelievable massages, you know.
440
00:32:03,892 --> 00:32:09,793
And the children found him amazing. I mean,
you know, we'd visit friends, who had children,
441
00:32:09,794 --> 00:32:14,229
and immediately he'd be playing with these
children in a way that, you know, we just can't do.
442
00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:17,197
I mean, those children, just
giggles, giggles, giggles
443
00:32:17,198 --> 00:32:20,575
about what this Japanese monk
was doing in these holy robes!
444
00:32:20,576 --> 00:32:25,797
I mean, he was an acrobat, a
ventriloquist, a magician, everything!
445
00:32:25,798 --> 00:32:30,404
You know the amazing thing was that I don't
think he had any interest in children whatsoever.
446
00:32:30,405 --> 00:32:32,854
None at all. I don't think he liked them!
447
00:32:32,855 --> 00:32:38,225
I mean, when he stayed with us, in the first week,
really, the kids were just googly-eyed over him.
448
00:32:38,226 --> 00:32:43,077
But then, a couple of weeks later, Chiquita
and I could be out and Marina could have flu
449
00:32:43,078 --> 00:32:46,426
or a temperature of a hundred and four and
he wouldn't even go in and say hello to her.
450
00:32:46,427 --> 00:32:52,977
But, he was taking over, more and more! I
mean, his own habits had completely changed.
451
00:32:52,978 --> 00:32:58,044
You know that he started wearing these elegant
Gucci shoes under his white monk's robes,
452
00:32:58,045 --> 00:33:03,467
and he was eating huge amounts of food. I
mean, he ate twice as much as Nicholas ate,
453
00:33:03,468 --> 00:33:07,636
this tiny little Buddhist who when I first met
him, you know, was eating a little bowl of milk,
454
00:33:07,637 --> 00:33:12,543
hot milk with rice, was
now eating huge beef!
455
00:33:13,937 --> 00:33:16,968
It was just very strange!
456
00:33:16,969 --> 00:33:20,438
And we tried working together, but
really all our work consisted mostly of
457
00:33:20,439 --> 00:33:25,379
my trying to do these incredibly painful
prostrations that they do in the monastery,
458
00:33:25,380 --> 00:33:29,817
so really we hadn't been
working very much. Anyway.
459
00:33:29,818 --> 00:33:34,387
We were out in the country, and we all
went to Christmas mass together, you know,
460
00:33:34,388 --> 00:33:36,353
he was all dressed up in his
Buddhist finery, you know,
461
00:33:36,354 --> 00:33:40,218
it was one of those awful dreary
Catholic churches on Long Island
462
00:33:40,219 --> 00:33:43,670
where the priest talks about
communism and birth control.
463
00:33:43,671 --> 00:33:48,717
And as I was sitting there in mass I was
wondering: "What in the world is going on?
464
00:33:48,718 --> 00:33:52,239
I mean, here I am, I'm a grown man, and
there's this strange person living in the house,
465
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,582
and I'm not working, I mean, I was doing nothing
but scribbling a little poetry in my diary.
466
00:33:56,583 --> 00:33:59,955
I can't get a job teaching any more,
and I dunno what I want to do...."
467
00:33:59,956 --> 00:34:07,086
When all of a sudden, a huge creature
appeared, looking at the congregation!
468
00:34:07,087 --> 00:34:13,534
It was about, I'd say, six foot eight, something
like that, you know, and it was half bull,
469
00:34:13,535 --> 00:34:18,569
half man, it's skin was blue, it had
violets growing out of its eyelids
470
00:34:18,570 --> 00:34:24,477
and poppies growing out of its toenails,
and it just stood there for the whole mass.
471
00:34:24,512 --> 00:34:27,151
I mean, I could not make
that creature disappear.
472
00:34:27,152 --> 00:34:29,940
I thought: "Oh, well, you know, I'm just
seeing this because I'm bored," you know.
473
00:34:29,941 --> 00:34:33,959
I could not make that creature go away.
474
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,831
Okay, now: I didn't talk with people
about it, because they'd think I was weird.
475
00:34:38,832 --> 00:34:44,373
But I felt that this creature
was somehow coming to comfort me.
476
00:34:44,374 --> 00:34:47,639
That somehow he was appearing to say:
477
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:53,033
"Well! You may feel low, and you might
not be able to create a play right now.
478
00:34:53,034 --> 00:34:57,135
But look what can come to you, on
Christmas eve! Hang on, old friend!
479
00:34:57,136 --> 00:35:01,431
I may seem weird to you, but on these
weird voyages, weird creatures appear!
480
00:35:01,432 --> 00:35:05,609
It's part of the journey.
You're okay! Hang in there!"
481
00:35:10,940 --> 00:35:17,470
By the way, did you ever see
that play,The Violets Are Blue?
482
00:35:19,661 --> 00:35:20,886
No.
483
00:35:20,994 --> 00:35:24,653
Oh, well, when you mentioned the
violets, it reminded me of that.
484
00:35:24,654 --> 00:35:30,715
It was about people being
strangled on a submarine.
485
00:35:36,953 --> 00:35:42,997
Well! So that was Christmas!
What happened after that?
486
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,431
You really want to hear about all this?
487
00:35:46,432 --> 00:35:47,432
Yeah!
488
00:35:47,433 --> 00:35:56,203
Well. Around that time, I was
beginning to think about going to India.
489
00:35:56,204 --> 00:35:57,204
And Kozan suddenly left one day.
490
00:35:57,205 --> 00:36:01,930
And you know, I was beginning to get into a
lot of very strange ideas around that time.
491
00:36:01,931 --> 00:36:05,936
Now, for example, I had developed
this... well, I got this idea which I...
492
00:36:05,937 --> 00:36:11,319
well, it was very appealing to me at the time,
you know, which was that I would have a flag,
493
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:16,233
a large flag, and that wherever I worked
this flag would fly, or if we were outside,
494
00:36:16,234 --> 00:36:19,410
say, with a group, that the flag could
be the thing that we'd lay on at night,
495
00:36:19,411 --> 00:36:24,908
and that somehow between working on this
flag and lying on this flag flying over us,
496
00:36:24,909 --> 00:36:31,898
that the flag would pick up vibrations of a kind that
would still be in the flag when I brought it home?
497
00:36:31,899 --> 00:36:36,032
So, I went down to meet this flag maker
that I'd heard about, and you know,
498
00:36:36,033 --> 00:36:37,751
there was this very straight-forward
looking guy, you know,
499
00:36:37,752 --> 00:36:42,698
a very sweet and really healthy-looking
and everything, nice, big, blond;
500
00:36:42,699 --> 00:36:45,851
you know, he had a beautiful clean loft
down in the village with lovely, happy flags.
501
00:36:45,852 --> 00:36:48,676
And I was all intoThe Little Prince and
I talked to him about the Little Prince
502
00:36:48,677 --> 00:36:51,422
and his adventures and
everything, how I needed the flag
503
00:36:51,423 --> 00:36:55,745
and what the flag should be, and
he seemed to really connect with it.
504
00:36:55,746 --> 00:37:01,676
So, two weeks later I came back: he showed
me a flag that I thought was very odd,
505
00:37:01,677 --> 00:37:07,297
'cause I'd...well, you know, I'd
expected something gentle, and lyrical.
506
00:37:07,298 --> 00:37:11,848
There was something about this that was
so powerful, it was almost overwhelming!
507
00:37:11,849 --> 00:37:14,423
And it did include the Tibetan swastika.
508
00:37:14,901 --> 00:37:17,263
He put a swastika in your flag?!
509
00:37:17,264 --> 00:37:20,715
It was the Tibetan swastika,
not the Nazi swastika.
510
00:37:20,716 --> 00:37:25,673
It's one of the most ancient Tibetan
symbols. And it was just strange, you know.
511
00:37:25,674 --> 00:37:32,532
But, I brought it home, because my idea with
this flag was that before I left for India,
512
00:37:32,533 --> 00:37:36,755
I wanted several people who were close to me
to have this flag in the room for the night,
513
00:37:36,756 --> 00:37:39,858
to sleep with it, you know, and then in
the morning to sew something into the flag.
514
00:37:39,859 --> 00:37:43,753
So I took the flag in to Marina, and I said:
"Hey, look at this. What do you think of this?"
515
00:37:43,754 --> 00:37:45,781
And she said:
"What is that? That's awful!"
516
00:37:45,782 --> 00:37:48,348
And I said: "It's a flag!" And she
said: "I don't like it!," you know.
517
00:37:48,349 --> 00:37:51,515
And I said: "Oh, well, I kinda thought
you might like to spend the night with it,"
518
00:37:51,516 --> 00:37:54,644
But she really thought the flag was awful.
519
00:37:54,645 --> 00:37:59,368
So, then, Chiquita threw this party
for me, before I left for India,
520
00:37:59,369 --> 00:38:01,460
and the apartment was filled with guests,
521
00:38:01,461 --> 00:38:04,787
and at one point Chiquita said: "The
flag! The flag! Where's the flag?"
522
00:38:04,788 --> 00:38:08,642
And I said: "Oh, yeah, the flag!" And
I go and get the flag and I open it up.
523
00:38:08,643 --> 00:38:12,203
Chiquita goes absolutely white and
runs out of the room and vomits!
524
00:38:12,204 --> 00:38:15,783
So the party just comes
to a halt and breaks up!
525
00:38:15,784 --> 00:38:20,299
And then the next day, I gave it to this
young woman who had been in my group in Poland,
526
00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:24,641
who was now in New York. I didn't
tell her anything about any of this.
527
00:38:24,642 --> 00:38:28,961
At 5:00 in the morning she called me up and
she said: "I gotta come and see you right away!"
528
00:38:28,962 --> 00:38:30,149
And I thought: "Oh, God!"
529
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:34,588
She came up and she said: "I saw
things! I saw things around this flag!
530
00:38:34,589 --> 00:38:37,211
Now I know you're stubborn and I know
you want to take this thing with you,
531
00:38:37,212 --> 00:38:40,260
but if you'd follow my advice you'd put
it in a hole in the ground and burn it
532
00:38:40,261 --> 00:38:42,665
and cover it with earth
'cause the Devil's in it!"
533
00:38:42,666 --> 00:38:44,997
Well, I never took the flag with me!
534
00:38:44,998 --> 00:38:51,731
In fact, I gave it to her, and she had a
ceremony with it six months later in France,
535
00:38:51,732 --> 00:38:54,838
with some friends,
in which they did burn it.
536
00:38:54,839 --> 00:39:01,749
Hunh! God! That's really, really amazing!
537
00:39:02,909 --> 00:39:04,852
So did you ever go to India?
538
00:39:04,852 --> 00:39:11,791
Oh, yes, I went to India in the spring,
Wally, and I came back home feeling all wrong.
539
00:39:11,792 --> 00:39:18,035
I'd been to India, and I had just
felt like a tourist. I'd found nothing.
540
00:39:18,036 --> 00:39:23,516
So, I was spending the summer
on Long Island with my family,
541
00:39:23,517 --> 00:39:26,894
and I heard about this community,
in Scotland, called Findhorn,
542
00:39:26,895 --> 00:39:30,407
where people sang and talked
and meditated with plants.
543
00:39:30,408 --> 00:39:35,987
And it was founded by several rather
middle-class English and Scottish eccentrics,
544
00:39:35,988 --> 00:39:38,074
some of them intellectuals
and some of them not.
545
00:39:38,075 --> 00:39:42,996
And I'd heard that they'd grown things in
soil that supposedly nothing can grow in
546
00:39:42,997 --> 00:39:45,914
'cause it's almost beach soil, and
that they'd built--not "built"--
547
00:39:45,915 --> 00:39:50,071
they'd grown the largest cauliflowers
in the world, and their sort of cabbages,
548
00:39:50,072 --> 00:39:54,159
and they've grown trees that
can't grow in the British Isles.
549
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,517
So I went there! I mean, it
is an amazing place, Wally.
550
00:39:57,518 --> 00:40:03,540
I mean, if there are insects bothering the
plants, they will talk with the insects!
551
00:40:03,541 --> 00:40:08,042
And you know, make an agreement by which
they'll set aside a special patch of vegetables
552
00:40:08,043 --> 00:40:12,178
just for the insects and then the
insects will leave the main part alone!
553
00:40:12,179 --> 00:40:13,179
Things like that.
554
00:40:13,621 --> 00:40:19,039
And everything they do, they do beautifully.
I mean, the buildings just shine.
555
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,264
I mean, for instance, the icebox, the stove,
the car, you know, they all have names.
556
00:40:23,265 --> 00:40:27,530
And since you wouldn't treat Helen, the icebox,
with any less respect than you would Margaret,
557
00:40:27,531 --> 00:40:32,576
your wife, you make sure that Helen is as clean
as Margaret, or treated with equal respect.
558
00:40:34,521 --> 00:40:38,333
And when I was there, Wally,
I remember being in the woods,
559
00:40:38,334 --> 00:40:46,232
and I would look at a leaf and I would actually
see that thing that is alive in that leaf.
560
00:40:46,233 --> 00:40:50,045
And then I remember just running
through the woods as fast as I could
561
00:40:50,046 --> 00:40:52,335
with this incredible laugh coming out of me.
562
00:40:52,336 --> 00:40:57,684
And really being in that state, you know,
where laughter and tears seem to merge.
563
00:40:57,685 --> 00:41:00,108
I mean, it absolutely blasted me open.
564
00:41:00,109 --> 00:41:03,199
When I came out of Findhorn,
I was hallucinating nonstop.
565
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:08,778
I was seeing clouds as creatures; the
people on the airplane all had animals faces.
566
00:41:08,779 --> 00:41:12,706
I mean, I was on a trip, you know. It was
like being in a William Blake world suddenly.
567
00:41:12,707 --> 00:41:13,707
Things were exploding.
568
00:41:13,708 --> 00:41:19,103
So, immediately, I went to Belgrade,
because I wanted to talk to Grotowski.
569
00:41:19,104 --> 00:41:22,562
And Grotowski and I got together
at midnight in my hotel room
570
00:41:22,563 --> 00:41:25,938
and we drank instant coffee out
of the top of my shaving-cream.
571
00:41:25,939 --> 00:41:30,285
And we talked from midnight
until eleven the next morning!
572
00:41:30,286 --> 00:41:31,286
God! What did he say?
573
00:41:31,287 --> 00:41:34,887
Nothing! I talked! He didn't say a word!
574
00:41:34,888 --> 00:41:43,934
And then, I guess really the last big
experience of this kind took place that fall.
575
00:41:43,935 --> 00:41:49,632
It was out on Montauk, on Long Island, and there
were only about nine of us involved, mostly men.
576
00:41:49,633 --> 00:41:52,765
And, we'd borrowed Dick
Avedon's property out at Montauk.
577
00:41:52,766 --> 00:41:58,046
And the country out there is like
Heathcliff country, it's absolutely wild!
578
00:41:58,047 --> 00:42:03,372
What we wanted to do, was we wanted
to take All Souls' Eve, Halloween,
579
00:42:03,373 --> 00:42:06,014
and use it as a point of
departure for something.
580
00:42:06,015 --> 00:42:11,761
So, each one of us prepared some sort of event for
the others, somehow in the spirit of All Souls' Eve.
581
00:42:11,762 --> 00:42:17,392
But the biggest event was that three of the people
kept disappearing in the middle of the night,
582
00:42:17,393 --> 00:42:21,913
each night, and we knew they were preparing
something big, but we didn't know what?
583
00:42:21,914 --> 00:42:26,437
And midnight, on Halloween, under
a dark moon above these cliffs,
584
00:42:26,438 --> 00:42:30,498
we were all told to gather at the topmost
cliff, and that we'd be taken somewhere.
585
00:42:30,499 --> 00:42:34,777
And we did. And we waited.
And it was very, very cold.
586
00:42:34,778 --> 00:42:38,755
And then the three of them, Helen,
Bill and Fred, showed up wearing white,
587
00:42:38,756 --> 00:42:42,356
something they'd made out of
sheets--looked a little spooky, not funny.
588
00:42:42,357 --> 00:42:47,560
And they took us into the basement of this
house that had burned down on the property,
589
00:42:47,561 --> 00:42:51,849
and in this ruined basement they had
set up a table, with benches they'd made.
590
00:42:51,850 --> 00:42:56,853
And on this table they had laid out
paper, pencils, wine and glasses.
591
00:42:56,854 --> 00:43:02,684
And we were all asked to sit at the table
and to make out our last will and testament,
592
00:43:02,685 --> 00:43:05,962
to think about and write down whatever
our last words were to the world,
593
00:43:05,963 --> 00:43:08,073
or to somebody we were very close to.
594
00:43:08,074 --> 00:43:14,704
And that's quite a task. I must have been there
for about an hour and a half or so, maybe two.
595
00:43:14,705 --> 00:43:20,224
And then one at a time, they would ask one of
us to come with them, and I was one of the last,
596
00:43:20,225 --> 00:43:25,055
and they came for me, and they put a blindfold on
me and they ran me through these fields, two people.
597
00:43:25,056 --> 00:43:27,323
And they'd found a kind of potting shed,
598
00:43:27,324 --> 00:43:33,070
a kind of shed on the grounds, a little
tiny room that had once had tools in it.
599
00:43:33,071 --> 00:43:35,924
And they took me down the
steps into this basement,
600
00:43:35,925 --> 00:43:41,095
and the room was just filled
with harsh, white light.
601
00:43:41,096 --> 00:43:44,956
And then they told me to get undressed,
and give them all my valuables.
602
00:43:44,957 --> 00:43:47,383
Then they put me on a table
and they sponged me down.
603
00:43:47,384 --> 00:43:52,099
Well, you know, I just started flashing
on death camps and secret police.
604
00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:55,320
I don't know what happened to the other people,
but I just started to cry uncontrollably.
605
00:43:55,321 --> 00:44:00,354
Then they got me to my feet and
they took photographs of me, naked.
606
00:44:00,355 --> 00:44:03,622
And then naked, again blindfolded,
I was run through these forests,
607
00:44:03,623 --> 00:44:06,840
and we came to a kind of tent made
of sheets, with sheets on the ground,
608
00:44:06,841 --> 00:44:11,383
and there were all these naked bodies
huddling together for warmth against the cold.
609
00:44:11,384 --> 00:44:14,725
Must have been left
there for about an hour.
610
00:44:14,726 --> 00:44:19,484
And then again, one by one, one at a time,
we were led out, the blindfold was put on,
611
00:44:19,485 --> 00:44:23,436
and I felt myself being lowered
onto something like a stretcher.
612
00:44:23,437 --> 00:44:28,453
And the stretcher was carried a long
way, very slowly, through these forests.
613
00:44:28,454 --> 00:44:33,943
And then I felt myself being
lowered into the ground!
614
00:44:33,944 --> 00:44:40,140
They had, in fact, dug
six graves eight feet deep!
615
00:44:40,141 --> 00:44:44,114
And then I felt these pieces
of wood being put on me.
616
00:44:45,501 --> 00:44:48,810
I mean, I cannot tell you,
Wally, what I was going through.
617
00:44:48,845 --> 00:44:54,315
And then, the stretcher was lowered into
the grave, and then this wood was put on me,
618
00:44:54,316 --> 00:44:58,313
and then my valuables were put on me in
my hands, and they had taken, you know,
619
00:44:58,314 --> 00:45:02,299
a kind of sheet or canvas, and they
stretched about this much above my head.
620
00:45:02,300 --> 00:45:05,027
And then they shoveled
dirt into the grave,
621
00:45:05,028 --> 00:45:12,086
so that I really had the
feeling of being buried alive.
622
00:45:12,087 --> 00:45:19,390
And after being in the grave for about half an
hour, I didn't know how long I'd be in there,
623
00:45:19,391 --> 00:45:24,777
I was resurrected, lifted out of the grave,
blindfold taken off, and run through these fields,
624
00:45:24,778 --> 00:45:31,686
and we came to a great circle of fire with music
and hot wine. And everyone danced until dawn!
625
00:45:31,687 --> 00:45:41,032
And then, at dawn, to the best of our ability,
we filled up the graves and went back to New York.
626
00:45:43,742 --> 00:45:47,855
That was really the last big
event. I mean, that was the end.
627
00:45:47,855 --> 00:45:51,994
I mean, I began to realize I just didn't
want to do these things any more, you know.
628
00:45:51,995 --> 00:45:59,472
I felt sort of "becalmed", like that chapter in
Moby Dick where the wind goes out of the sails.
629
00:45:59,473 --> 00:46:04,777
And then last winter, without thinking about
it very much, I went to see this agent I know,
630
00:46:04,778 --> 00:46:07,551
to tell him I was interested
in directing plays again.
631
00:46:07,552 --> 00:46:13,514
Actually he seemed a little surprised to
see that Rip Van Winkle was still alive!
632
00:46:19,454 --> 00:46:25,427
Hum! God! I didn't
know they were so small!
633
00:46:28,135 --> 00:46:32,305
Well, you know, frankly, I'm sort of repelled
by the whole story, if you really want to know.
634
00:46:32,306 --> 00:46:33,306
What!?
635
00:46:35,243 --> 00:46:40,863
I mean, who did I think I was, you know? That's
the story of some kind of spoiled princess.
636
00:46:42,223 --> 00:46:44,617
Who did I think I was, the Shah of Iran?
637
00:46:44,618 --> 00:46:49,569
I really wonder if people such as myself
are really not Albert Speer, Wally.
638
00:46:49,570 --> 00:46:52,931
You know? Hitler's architect, Albert Speer?
639
00:46:52,931 --> 00:46:53,616
Hunh!?
640
00:46:53,617 --> 00:46:57,380
No, I've been thinking a lot about him
recently, because I think I am Speer,
641
00:46:57,381 --> 00:47:00,582
and I think it's time that I was
caught and tried the way he was.
642
00:47:00,583 --> 00:47:01,583
What are you talking about?
643
00:47:01,584 --> 00:47:06,429
Well, I mean, he was a very cultivated
man, an architect, an artist, you know,
644
00:47:06,430 --> 00:47:10,013
so he thought the ordinary rules
of life didn't apply to him either.
645
00:47:11,911 --> 00:47:19,215
I mean, I really feel that everything
I've done is horrific, just horrific!
646
00:47:19,216 --> 00:47:21,593
My God! But, why!?
647
00:47:21,594 --> 00:47:26,768
You see, I've seen a lot of death
in the last few years, Wally,
648
00:47:26,769 --> 00:47:29,195
and there's one thing
that's for sure about death:
649
00:47:29,196 --> 00:47:32,389
you do it alone, you see, that seems
quite certain, you see, that I've seen.
650
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:36,365
That the people around your bed mean
nothing, your reviews mean nothing.
651
00:47:36,366 --> 00:47:38,959
Whatever it is, you do it
alone. And so the question is:
652
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,448
when I get on my deathbed what
kind of a person am I going to be,
653
00:47:41,449 --> 00:47:43,773
and I'm just very dubious
about the kind of person
654
00:47:43,774 --> 00:47:46,449
who would have lived his life
those last few years the way I did.
655
00:47:46,450 --> 00:47:48,388
Well, why should you feel that way?
656
00:47:48,389 --> 00:47:53,395
Well, you see, I've had a very rough
time in the last few months, Wally.
657
00:47:53,396 --> 00:47:58,031
Three different people in my family
were in the hospital at the same time.
658
00:47:58,032 --> 00:48:01,955
Then my mother died, then Marina
had something wrong with her back
659
00:48:01,956 --> 00:48:04,135
and we were terribly worried
about her, you know, so....
660
00:48:04,136 --> 00:48:06,935
So, I mean, I'm feeling
very raw right now. I mean...
661
00:48:06,936 --> 00:48:11,699
I mean, I can't sleep, my nerves are
shot, I mean, I'm affected by everything.
662
00:48:11,700 --> 00:48:16,801
You know, last week, I had this really
nice director, from Norway, over for dinner?
663
00:48:16,802 --> 00:48:20,431
And he's someone I've known for years and years,
and he's somebody I think I'm quite fond of.
664
00:48:20,432 --> 00:48:24,114
And, I was sitting there just thinking
that he was a pompous, defensive,
665
00:48:24,115 --> 00:48:26,707
conservative stuffed-shirt who
was only interested in the theater,
666
00:48:26,708 --> 00:48:30,011
he was talking and talking, his mother
had been a famous Norwegian comedian.
667
00:48:30,012 --> 00:48:34,354
I realized he had said "I remember my mother"
at least four hundred times during the evening.
668
00:48:34,355 --> 00:48:38,090
And he was telling story
after story about his mother,
669
00:48:38,091 --> 00:48:40,901
I'd heard these stories
twenty times in the past.
670
00:48:40,902 --> 00:48:46,075
He was drinking this whole bottle of bourbon
very quietly, and his laugh was so horrible!
671
00:48:46,076 --> 00:48:49,901
I could hear his laugh, the pain in
that laugh, the hollowness, you know,
672
00:48:49,902 --> 00:48:52,272
what being that woman's son
had done to him, you know.
673
00:48:52,273 --> 00:48:55,653
So at a certain point I just had to
ask him to leave, nicely, you know,
674
00:48:55,654 --> 00:48:59,504
I told him I had to get up early the
next morning 'cause it was so horrible.
675
00:48:59,505 --> 00:49:01,229
It was just as if he had
died in my living room,
676
00:49:01,230 --> 00:49:04,947
and then I went into the bathroom and
cried 'cause I felt I'd lost a friend.
677
00:49:04,948 --> 00:49:08,025
And then after he had gone
I turned the television on,
678
00:49:08,026 --> 00:49:11,126
and there was this guy who had just
won the something-something, you know,
679
00:49:11,127 --> 00:49:14,384
some sports event, some kind of great big
check and some kind of huge silver bottle.
680
00:49:14,385 --> 00:49:16,988
And you know, he couldn't
stuff the check in the bottle,
681
00:49:16,989 --> 00:49:19,830
and he put the bottle in front of his
nose and pretended it was his face.
682
00:49:19,831 --> 00:49:22,328
You know, he wasn't really listening
to the guy who was interviewing him,
683
00:49:22,329 --> 00:49:24,836
but he was smiling
malevolently at his friends.
684
00:49:24,837 --> 00:49:30,479
And I looked at that guy and I thought:
"What a horrible, empty, manipulative rat!"
685
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,922
Then I thought: "That guy is me!"
686
00:49:33,970 --> 00:49:37,343
Then last night, actually, it was
our twentieth wedding anniversary.
687
00:49:37,344 --> 00:49:39,716
And I took Chiquita to see
the show about Billie Holiday,
688
00:49:39,717 --> 00:49:43,199
and I looked at these show-business people,
who know nothing about Billie Holiday,
689
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,827
nothing, so they're really kind
of in a way intellectual creeps?
690
00:49:46,828 --> 00:49:48,337
And I suddenly had this
feeling, I mean, you know,
691
00:49:48,338 --> 00:49:50,428
I was just sitting there
crying through most of the show.
692
00:49:50,429 --> 00:49:53,687
And I suddenly had this feeling,
I was just as creepy as they were!
693
00:49:53,688 --> 00:49:58,570
And that my whole life had been a sham, and I
didn't have the guts to be Billie Holiday either.
694
00:49:58,571 --> 00:50:05,927
I mean, I really feel that I'm just washed up!
Wiped out! I feel I've just squandered my life!
695
00:50:09,298 --> 00:50:13,351
Andr�! Now, how can you
say something like that?
696
00:50:22,977 --> 00:50:29,726
Well I may be in a very emotional state right
now, Wally, but since I've come back home,
697
00:50:29,727 --> 00:50:33,445
I've just been finding the world we're
living in more and more upsetting.
698
00:50:35,249 --> 00:50:37,615
Last week I went down to the
public theater one afternoon.
699
00:50:37,616 --> 00:50:40,858
when I walked in I said "hello" to everybody,
'cause I know them all and they all know me,
700
00:50:40,859 --> 00:50:42,273
and they're always very friendly.
701
00:50:42,274 --> 00:50:47,405
You know that seven or eight people told me
how wonderful I looked, and then one person,
702
00:50:47,406 --> 00:50:51,950
one, a woman who runs the casting office, said:
"Gee, you look horrible! Is something wrong?"
703
00:50:51,951 --> 00:50:54,811
Now she, we started talking, of
course I started telling her things,
704
00:50:54,812 --> 00:51:00,418
and she suddenly burst into tears because an aunt
of hers, who's eighty, whom she's very fond of,
705
00:51:00,419 --> 00:51:03,308
went into the hospital for
a cataract, which was solved,
706
00:51:03,309 --> 00:51:07,076
but the nurse was so sloppy
she didn't put the bed rails up,
707
00:51:07,077 --> 00:51:09,876
so the aunt fell out of bed
and is now a complete cripple!
708
00:51:09,877 --> 00:51:12,485
So, you know, we were
talking about hospitals.
709
00:51:12,486 --> 00:51:16,664
Now, you know, this woman,
because of who she is, you know,
710
00:51:16,665 --> 00:51:21,116
'cause this had happened to her very, very
recently, she could see me with complete clarity.
711
00:51:21,117 --> 00:51:22,117
Un-hunh.
712
00:51:22,118 --> 00:51:23,547
She didn't know anything about
what I've been going through.
713
00:51:23,548 --> 00:51:26,746
But the other people, what they
saw was this tan or this shirt,
714
00:51:26,747 --> 00:51:30,836
or the fact that the shirt goes well with the
tan, so they say: "Gee, you look wonderful!"
715
00:51:30,837 --> 00:51:34,246
Now, they're living in
an insane dream world!
716
00:51:34,247 --> 00:51:37,999
They're not looking. That
seems very strange to me.
717
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,082
Right, because they just
didn't see anything somehow,
718
00:51:41,083 --> 00:51:44,960
except the few little things
that they wanted to see.
719
00:51:47,547 --> 00:51:50,941
Yeah. You know, it's like what
happened just before my mother died.
720
00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:56,679
We'd gone to the hospital to see
my mother, and I went in to see her.
721
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:01,320
And I saw this woman who looked as bad
as any survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau.
722
00:52:01,321 --> 00:52:05,101
And I was out in the hall,
sort of comforting my father,
723
00:52:05,102 --> 00:52:10,045
when a doctor who is a specialist in
a problem that she had with her arm,
724
00:52:10,046 --> 00:52:13,326
went into her room and came
out just beaming. And he said:
725
00:52:13,327 --> 00:52:19,562
"Boy! Don't we have a lot of reason to feel
great! Isn't it wonderful how she's coming along!"
726
00:52:19,563 --> 00:52:24,844
Now, all he saw was the
arm, that's all he saw.
727
00:52:24,845 --> 00:52:29,456
Now, here's another person
who's existing in a dream.
728
00:52:29,457 --> 00:52:34,510
Who on top of that is a kind of butcher,
who's committing a kind of familial murder,
729
00:52:34,511 --> 00:52:37,965
because when he comes out of
that room he psychically kills us
730
00:52:37,966 --> 00:52:43,865
by taking us into a dream world, where
we become confused and frightened.
731
00:52:43,866 --> 00:52:47,058
Because the moment before we saw
somebody who already looked dead
732
00:52:47,059 --> 00:52:50,145
and now here comes a specialist who
tells us they're in wonderful shape!
733
00:52:50,146 --> 00:52:54,161
I mean, they were literally
driving my father crazy.
734
00:52:54,162 --> 00:52:57,752
I mean, here's an eighty-two-year-old
man who's very emotional,
735
00:52:57,753 --> 00:53:00,667
and, you know, if you go in one
moment, and you see the person's dying,
736
00:53:00,668 --> 00:53:04,289
and you don't want them to die, and then
a doctor comes out five minutes later
737
00:53:04,290 --> 00:53:07,856
and tells you they're in wonderful
shape! I mean, you know, you can go crazy!
738
00:53:08,172 --> 00:53:08,857
Yeah, I know what you mean.
739
00:53:08,858 --> 00:53:15,181
The doctor didn't see my mother. People
at the public theater didn't see me.
740
00:53:15,182 --> 00:53:20,599
I mean, we're just walking around in some
kind of fog. I think we're all in a trance!
741
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:21,600
We're walking around like zombies!
742
00:53:21,601 --> 00:53:26,149
I don't think we're even aware of
ourselves or our own reaction to things,
743
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:29,127
we're just going around all
day like unconscious machines,
744
00:53:29,128 --> 00:53:33,136
while there's all of this rage and
worry and uneasiness just building up
745
00:53:33,137 --> 00:53:34,137
and building up inside us!
746
00:53:34,138 --> 00:53:40,288
That's right. It just builds up, and
then it just leaps out inappropriately.
747
00:53:40,289 --> 00:53:44,741
I mean, I remember when I was
acting in this play based on
748
00:53:44,742 --> 00:53:48,304
The Master and Margarita by Bulgakov,
and I was playing the part of the cat.
749
00:53:48,305 --> 00:53:51,721
But they had trouble
making up my cat suit.
750
00:53:51,722 --> 00:53:55,287
So I didn't get it delivered to me
until the night of the first performance.
751
00:53:55,288 --> 00:53:58,429
Particularly the head, I mean, I had
never even had a chance to try it on.
752
00:53:58,430 --> 00:54:02,328
And about four of my fellow
actors actually came up to me,
753
00:54:02,329 --> 00:54:07,449
and they said these things which I just couldn't
help thinking were attempts to destroy me!
754
00:54:07,450 --> 00:54:14,279
One of them said: "Oh! Well, now! That head will
totally change your hearing in the performance!
755
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:18,832
You may hear everything completely
differently! And it may be very upsetting.
756
00:54:18,833 --> 00:54:22,686
Now, I was once in a performance
where I was wearing earmuffs,
757
00:54:22,687 --> 00:54:26,301
and I couldn't hear anything anybody said!"
758
00:54:26,302 --> 00:54:31,707
And then another one said: "Oh, you know, whenever
I wear even a hat on stage, I tend to faint."
759
00:54:31,708 --> 00:54:35,277
I mean, those remarks were
just full of hostility.
760
00:54:35,278 --> 00:54:38,814
Because, I mean, you know, if I had listened to
those people I would have gone out there on stage,
761
00:54:38,815 --> 00:54:41,281
and I wouldn't have been able to hear
anything and I would have fainted!
762
00:54:41,282 --> 00:54:45,881
But the hostility was completely inappropriate,
because in fact those people liked me,
763
00:54:45,882 --> 00:54:51,838
that hostility was just some feeling that
was left over from some previous experience.
764
00:54:51,839 --> 00:54:55,846
Because somehow in our
social existence today
765
00:54:55,847 --> 00:55:01,427
we're only allowed to express our
feelings weirdly and indirectly.
766
00:55:01,428 --> 00:55:04,007
If you express them directly
everybody goes crazy!
767
00:55:04,008 --> 00:55:06,824
Well, did you express your feelings,
about what those people said to you?
768
00:55:06,825 --> 00:55:11,224
No! I mean, I didn't even know what
I felt till I thought about it later.
769
00:55:11,225 --> 00:55:16,838
And I mean, at the most, you know, in a situation
like that, even if I had known what I felt,
770
00:55:16,839 --> 00:55:20,748
I might say something, if
I'm really annoyed, like:
771
00:55:20,749 --> 00:55:28,270
"Oh, yeah. Well, that's just fascinating! And
I probably will faint tonight, just as you did!"
772
00:55:28,271 --> 00:55:33,768
I do just the same thing myself! We can't be
direct so we end up saying the weirdest things.
773
00:55:33,769 --> 00:55:37,455
I mean, I remember a night, it was a
couple of weeks after my mother died,
774
00:55:37,456 --> 00:55:41,659
and I was in pretty bad shape. And I had
dinner with three relatively close friends,
775
00:55:41,660 --> 00:55:46,224
two of whom had known my mother quite well,
and all three of whom had known me for years.
776
00:55:46,225 --> 00:55:49,765
You know that we went through that entire
evening without my being able to, for a moment,
777
00:55:49,766 --> 00:55:53,309
get anywhere near, you know, not that I
wanted to sit and have this dreary evening
778
00:55:53,310 --> 00:55:56,370
in which I was talking about all this pain
that I was going through and everything.
779
00:55:56,370 --> 00:56:01,979
Really, not at all, but the fact that nobody
could say: "Gee, what a shame about your mother."
780
00:56:01,980 --> 00:56:04,568
Or: "How are you feeling?" It was
just as if nothing had happened!
781
00:56:04,569 --> 00:56:08,434
They were all making these jokes and laughing.
I got quite crazy as a matter of fact.
782
00:56:08,435 --> 00:56:11,447
One of these people mentioned a
certain man whom I don't like very much,
783
00:56:11,448 --> 00:56:15,249
and I started screeching about how he
had just been found in the Bronx River,
784
00:56:15,250 --> 00:56:19,846
and his penis had dropped off from
gonorrhea, and all kinds of insane things.
785
00:56:19,847 --> 00:56:24,219
And later, when I got home, I realized I had
just been desperate to break through this ice!
786
00:56:24,220 --> 00:56:25,220
Yep!
787
00:56:25,540 --> 00:56:30,101
I mean, do you realize, Wally, if you
brought that situation into a Tibetan home?
788
00:56:30,102 --> 00:56:32,798
That would just be so far out! I mean,
they wouldn't be able to understand it.
789
00:56:32,799 --> 00:56:35,585
I mean, that would be simply...
simply so weird, Wally!
790
00:56:35,586 --> 00:56:39,758
If four Tibetans came together, and
tragedy had just struck one of the ones,
791
00:56:39,759 --> 00:56:44,415
and they spent the whole evening going
"HA HA HA HA HAW HAW HAW HEE HEE HEE!"
792
00:56:44,416 --> 00:56:49,474
Tibetans would have looked at that and thought
that was the most unimaginable behavior!
793
00:56:49,475 --> 00:56:52,406
- But for us, that's common behavior.
- Uh-hunh.
794
00:56:52,441 --> 00:56:56,258
I mean, really, the Africans would have
probably put their spears into all four of us,
795
00:56:56,259 --> 00:56:57,651
'cause it would have driven them crazy.
796
00:56:57,652 --> 00:57:00,935
They would have thought we were
dangerous animals or something like that.
797
00:57:00,936 --> 00:57:04,596
I mean, that's absolutely
abnormal behavior.
798
00:57:04,597 --> 00:57:06,761
Is everything all right, gentlemen?
799
00:57:06,762 --> 00:57:07,762
Great.
800
00:57:13,158 --> 00:57:18,946
But those are typical evenings for us. We go
to dinners, and parties like that all the time.
801
00:57:18,946 --> 00:57:25,236
These evenings are really like sort of sickly
dreams, because people are talking in symbols.
802
00:57:25,237 --> 00:57:29,743
Everyone's sort of floating through this
fog of symbols and unconscious feelings.
803
00:57:29,744 --> 00:57:31,173
No one says what they're
really thinking about.
804
00:57:31,174 --> 00:57:37,124
Then people start making these jokes,
that are really some sort of secret code!
805
00:57:37,125 --> 00:57:39,782
Right! Well, what often happens
at some of these evenings
806
00:57:39,783 --> 00:57:44,175
is that these really crazy little
fantasies will just start being played with,
807
00:57:44,176 --> 00:57:48,197
and everybody will be talking at once, and
sort of saying: "Hey, wouldn't it be great
808
00:57:48,232 --> 00:57:53,155
if Frank Sinatra and Mrs. Nixon and
blah-blah-blah were in such-and-such a situation,"
809
00:57:53,156 --> 00:57:56,887
always with famous people
and always sort of grotesque?
810
00:57:56,888 --> 00:58:00,755
Or people will be talking
about some horrible thing like
811
00:58:00,756 --> 00:58:06,830
the death of that girl in the car with Ted
Kennedy, and they'll just be roaring with laughter!
812
00:58:06,831 --> 00:58:09,882
I mean, it's really amazing.
It's just unbelievable.
813
00:58:09,883 --> 00:58:14,854
That's the only way anything is expressed,
through these completely insane jokes.
814
00:58:14,855 --> 00:58:20,525
I think that's why I never understand what's going
on at a party, and I'm always completely confused.
815
00:58:21,583 --> 00:58:28,796
Debby once said after one of these NY evenings,
she thought she'd travelled a greater distance
816
00:58:28,797 --> 00:58:34,233
just by journeying from her origins in the
suburbs of Chicago to that New York evening,
817
00:58:34,234 --> 00:58:35,943
than her grandmother had travelled in
818
00:58:35,944 --> 00:58:39,982
making her way from the steppes of
Russia to the suburbs of Chicago!
819
00:58:39,983 --> 00:58:40,983
Well, I think that's right!
820
00:58:43,759 --> 00:58:48,713
You know, it may be, Wally, that one of the
reasons that we don't know what's going on is that
821
00:58:48,714 --> 00:58:51,915
when we're there at a party,
we're all too busy performing.
822
00:58:51,916 --> 00:58:52,916
Un-hunh.
823
00:58:52,917 --> 00:58:55,825
You know, that was one of the reasons
that Grotowski gave up the theater.
824
00:58:55,826 --> 00:59:00,730
He just felt that people in their
lives now were performing so well
825
00:59:00,731 --> 00:59:04,977
that performance in the theater was sort
of superfluous, and in a way obscene.
826
00:59:04,978 --> 00:59:05,978
Hum!
827
00:59:06,205 --> 00:59:13,278
Isn't it amazing how often a doctor will live up
to our expectation of how a doctor should look?
828
00:59:13,279 --> 00:59:16,359
I mean, you see a terrorist on
television: he looks just like a terrorist.
829
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,628
I mean, we live in a world in which
fathers, or single people, or artists,
830
00:59:21,628 --> 00:59:23,868
are all trying to live
up to someone's fantasy
831
00:59:23,869 --> 00:59:27,761
of how a father, or a single person,
or an artist, should look and behave!
832
00:59:27,762 --> 00:59:32,701
They all act as if they know exactly how they
ought to conduct themselves at every single moment.
833
00:59:32,702 --> 00:59:35,222
And they all seem totally self-confident.
834
00:59:35,223 --> 00:59:38,281
Of course, privately people are
very mixed up about themselves.
835
00:59:38,282 --> 00:59:41,223
They don't know what they
should be doing with their lives.
836
00:59:41,224 --> 00:59:42,828
They're reading all
these self-help books...
837
00:59:42,829 --> 00:59:47,969
Oh! God! Those books are just so touching because
they show how desperately curious we all are
838
00:59:47,969 --> 00:59:51,250
to know how all the others of
us are really getting on in life,
839
00:59:51,250 --> 00:59:54,054
even though by performing
these roles all the time
840
00:59:54,055 --> 00:59:56,879
we're just hiding the reality
of ourselves from everybody else.
841
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,620
I mean, we live in such
ludicrous ignorance of each other.
842
00:59:59,621 --> 01:00:04,043
We usually don't know the things we'd like to
know even about our supposedly closest friends!
843
01:00:04,044 --> 01:00:08,654
I mean, you know, suppose you're going
through some kind of hell in your own life,
844
01:00:08,655 --> 01:00:12,584
well, you would love to know if your
friends have experienced similar things.
845
01:00:12,585 --> 01:00:13,952
But we just don't dare to ask each other!
846
01:00:13,953 --> 01:00:16,628
No! It would be like asking
your friend to drop his role.
847
01:00:16,629 --> 01:00:20,438
I mean, we just put no value
at all on perceiving reality.
848
01:00:20,439 --> 01:00:26,068
On the contrary, this incredible emphasis that
we all place now on our so-called "careers"
849
01:00:26,069 --> 01:00:30,844
automatically makes perceiving
reality a very low priority.
850
01:00:30,845 --> 01:00:35,401
Because if your life is organized around
trying to be successful in a career,
851
01:00:35,401 --> 01:00:40,468
well, it just doesn't matter what
you perceive, or what you experience.
852
01:00:40,469 --> 01:00:44,152
You can really sort of shut your
mind off for years ahead, in a way.
853
01:00:44,153 --> 01:00:46,091
You can sort of turn
on the automatic pilot!
854
01:00:46,092 --> 01:00:50,492
You know, just the way your mother's
doctor had on his automatic pilot
855
01:00:50,493 --> 01:00:55,104
when he went in and he looked at the arm, and
he totally failed to perceive anything else!
856
01:00:55,105 --> 01:01:01,287
Right! Our minds are just focused on these goals
and plans. Which in themselves are not reality.
857
01:01:01,288 --> 01:01:08,522
No! Goals and plans are not--I mean, they're
fantasy. They're part of a dream life!
858
01:01:08,523 --> 01:01:17,009
It always just does seem so ridiculous somehow
that everybody has to have his little goal in life.
859
01:01:17,010 --> 01:01:18,539
It's so absurd, in a way.
860
01:01:18,540 --> 01:01:20,712
I mean, when you consider that
it doesn't matter which one it is.
861
01:01:20,713 --> 01:01:23,888
Right! And because people's
concentration is on their goals,
862
01:01:23,889 --> 01:01:26,637
in their life they just
live each moment by habit!
863
01:01:26,638 --> 01:01:30,087
Really, like the Norwegian, telling
the same stories over and over again.
864
01:01:30,088 --> 01:01:33,863
Life becomes habitual! And it is, today!
865
01:01:33,864 --> 01:01:37,052
I mean, very few things happen
now like that moment when
866
01:01:37,053 --> 01:01:41,422
Marlon Brando sent the Indian woman to
accept the Oscar and everything went haywire?
867
01:01:41,423 --> 01:01:44,312
Things just very rarely go haywire now.
868
01:01:44,313 --> 01:01:49,836
And if you're just operating by
habit, then you're not really living.
869
01:01:49,837 --> 01:01:55,776
In Sanskrit the root of the verb "to be" is
the same as "to grow" or "to make grow."
870
01:01:55,777 --> 01:01:56,777
Hunh!
871
01:02:00,963 --> 01:02:02,988
- Do you know about Roc?
- Hunh?
872
01:02:02,989 --> 01:02:09,430
Oh! Well! Roc was a wonderful man. And
he was one of the founders of Findhorn.
873
01:02:09,431 --> 01:02:14,051
he was one of Scotlan--well, he was
Scotland's greatest mathematician,
874
01:02:14,052 --> 01:02:16,366
and he was one of the
century's great mathematicians.
875
01:02:16,367 --> 01:02:22,878
And he prided himself on the fact that he had no
fantasy life, no dream life, nothing to stand--
876
01:02:22,879 --> 01:02:28,748
no imaginary life, nothing to stand between
him and the direct perception of mathematics.
877
01:02:28,749 --> 01:02:31,460
And one day, when he
was in his mid-fifties,
878
01:02:31,461 --> 01:02:34,725
he was walking in the gardens
of Edinburgh and he saw a faun!
879
01:02:35,443 --> 01:02:39,779
The faun was very surprised because
fauns have always been able to see people,
880
01:02:39,780 --> 01:02:41,769
but, you know, very few
people ever see them. And...
881
01:02:41,770 --> 01:02:46,232
You know? Those little
imaginary creatures. Not a deer.
882
01:02:46,233 --> 01:02:48,784
- Oh!
- You call them fauns, don't you?
883
01:02:48,785 --> 01:02:50,544
I thought a fawn was a baby deer.
884
01:02:50,545 --> 01:02:54,032
Yeah, well, there's a deer that's called a fawn,
but these are like those little...imaginary...
885
01:02:54,033 --> 01:02:56,289
- Oh! The kind that Debussy, uh...
- Right!
886
01:02:56,290 --> 01:03:02,062
So, he got to know the faun, and then he got to know
other fauns, and a series of conversations began.
887
01:03:02,063 --> 01:03:05,385
And more and more fauns would come
out every afternoon to meet him,
888
01:03:05,386 --> 01:03:07,084
and he'd have talks with the fauns.
889
01:03:07,085 --> 01:03:10,571
And then one day after a while, when, you
know, they'd really gotten to know him,
890
01:03:10,572 --> 01:03:15,350
they asked him if he would like to meet
Pan, because Pan would like to meet him!
891
01:03:15,351 --> 01:03:17,638
But of course Pan was
afraid of terrifying him,
892
01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:22,953
because he knew of the Christian misconception
which portrayed Pan as an evil creature,
893
01:03:22,954 --> 01:03:24,106
which he's not.
894
01:03:24,107 --> 01:03:27,057
But Roc said he would love
to meet Pan, and so they met,
895
01:03:27,058 --> 01:03:29,924
and Pan indirectly sent
him on his way on a journey
896
01:03:29,925 --> 01:03:33,254
in which he met the other
people who began Findhorn.
897
01:03:33,255 --> 01:03:39,420
But Roc used to practice certain
exercises, like for instance,
898
01:03:39,421 --> 01:03:43,859
if he were right-handed, all today he would
do everything with his left hand, all day,
899
01:03:43,860 --> 01:03:48,336
eating, writing, everything: opening doors,
in order to break the habits of living.
900
01:03:48,337 --> 01:03:54,397
Because the great danger he felt for him
was to fall into a trance, out of habit.
901
01:03:54,398 --> 01:03:59,359
He had a whole series of very simple
exercises that he had invented,
902
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:05,660
just to keep seeing, feeling, remembering.
Because you have to learn now.
903
01:04:05,661 --> 01:04:09,531
It didn't use to be necessary, but
today you have to learn something like:
904
01:04:09,532 --> 01:04:16,833
are you really hungry or are you just stuffing
your face because that's what you do, out of habit.
905
01:04:16,834 --> 01:04:20,847
I mean, you can afford to do it, so
you do it, whether you're hungry or not.
906
01:04:20,848 --> 01:04:26,870
If you go to the Buddhist meditation center,
they make you taste each bite of your food,
907
01:04:26,871 --> 01:04:30,341
so it takes two hours--it's
horrible--to eat your lunch!
908
01:04:30,342 --> 01:04:33,766
But you're conscious of
the taste of your food!
909
01:04:33,767 --> 01:04:36,593
If you're just eating out of
habit, then you don't taste the food
910
01:04:36,594 --> 01:04:40,240
and you're not conscious of the
reality of what's happening to you.
911
01:04:40,241 --> 01:04:42,305
You enter the dream world again.
912
01:04:42,306 --> 01:04:48,213
Do you think maybe we live in this dream
world because we do so many things every day
913
01:04:48,214 --> 01:04:52,414
that affect us in ways that
somehow we're just not aware of?
914
01:04:52,415 --> 01:05:00,077
I was thinking: now last Christmas, Debby
and I were given an electric blanket.
915
01:05:00,078 --> 01:05:07,435
Now I can tell you that it is just such a
marvelous advance over our old way of life,
916
01:05:07,436 --> 01:05:13,807
and it is just great. But it is quite
different from not having an electric blanket.
917
01:05:13,808 --> 01:05:16,549
And I sometimes sort of wonder,
well, what is it doing to me?
918
01:05:16,550 --> 01:05:20,857
I mean I sort of feel I'm not
sleeping quite in the same way.
919
01:05:20,858 --> 01:05:23,252
- Well no, you wouldn't be.
- I mean....
920
01:05:23,252 --> 01:05:28,091
And my dreams are sort of different, and I feel a
little bit different when I get up in the morning.
921
01:05:28,092 --> 01:05:32,142
I wouldn't put an electric
blanket on for anything.
922
01:05:32,143 --> 01:05:36,954
First, I'd be worried I might get
electrocuted. No, I don't trust technology.
923
01:05:36,955 --> 01:05:40,417
But I mean the main thing,
Wally, is that I think that
924
01:05:40,418 --> 01:05:44,567
that kind of comfort just separates
you from reality in a very direct way.
925
01:05:44,568 --> 01:05:45,568
You mean...
926
01:05:45,569 --> 01:05:48,800
I mean, if you don't have that electric
blanket, and your apartment is cold,
927
01:05:48,801 --> 01:05:51,491
and you need to put on another
blanket or go into the closet
928
01:05:51,492 --> 01:05:55,666
and pile up coats on top of the blanket
you have, well then you know it's cold.
929
01:05:55,667 --> 01:05:59,709
And that sets up a link of things:
you have compassion for the p...
930
01:05:59,710 --> 01:06:04,124
well, is the person next to you cold? Are
there other people in the world who are cold?
931
01:06:04,125 --> 01:06:05,962
What a cold night!
932
01:06:05,963 --> 01:06:10,314
I like the cold, my God, I never realized,
I don't want a blanket, it's fun being cold,
933
01:06:10,315 --> 01:06:15,998
I can snuggle up against you even more because
it's cold! All sorts of things occur to you.
934
01:06:15,999 --> 01:06:20,076
Turn on that electric blanket and
it's like taking a tranquilizer,
935
01:06:20,077 --> 01:06:22,428
it's like being lobotomized
by watching television.
936
01:06:22,429 --> 01:06:24,709
I think you enter the dream world again.
937
01:06:25,658 --> 01:06:29,154
I mean, what does it do to us,
Wally, living in an environment
938
01:06:29,155 --> 01:06:35,573
where something as massive as the seasons
or winter or cold don't in any way affect us?
939
01:06:35,574 --> 01:06:38,650
I mean, we're animals after all.
I mean, what does that mean?
940
01:06:38,651 --> 01:06:45,580
I think that means that instead of living under
the sun and the moon and the sky and the stars
941
01:06:45,581 --> 01:06:48,118
we're living in a fantasy
world of our own making.
942
01:06:48,119 --> 01:06:52,298
Yeah, but I mean, I would never
give up my electric blanket, Andr�.
943
01:06:52,299 --> 01:06:56,964
I mean, because New York is cold in the
winter, I mean, our apartment is cold.
944
01:06:56,965 --> 01:07:00,457
It's a difficult environment! I mean,
our lives are tough enough as it is,
945
01:07:00,458 --> 01:07:04,136
I'm not looking for ways to get rid of the
few things that provide relief and comfort,
946
01:07:04,137 --> 01:07:09,200
I mean, on the contrary! I'm looking for more
comfort, because the world is very abrasive,
947
01:07:09,201 --> 01:07:11,764
I mean, I'm trying to protect myself,
948
01:07:11,765 --> 01:07:15,663
because really there are these abrasive
beatings to be avoided everywhere you look.
949
01:07:15,664 --> 01:07:20,040
Yeah, but Wally, don't you see
that comfort can be dangerous?
950
01:07:20,041 --> 01:07:23,017
I mean, you like to be comfortable
and I like to be comfortable, too.
951
01:07:23,018 --> 01:07:26,809
But comfort can lull you
into a dangerous tranquility.
952
01:07:26,810 --> 01:07:32,782
My mother knew a woman, Lady Hatfield, who
was one of the richest women in the world,
953
01:07:32,783 --> 01:07:36,514
and she died of starvation because
all she would eat was chicken.
954
01:07:36,515 --> 01:07:38,939
I mean, she just liked chicken,
Wally, and that was all she would eat,
955
01:07:38,940 --> 01:07:42,293
and actually, her body was
starving but she didn't know it
956
01:07:42,294 --> 01:07:46,215
'cause she was quite happy eating
her chicken and so, she finally died!
957
01:07:46,216 --> 01:07:50,229
See, I honestly believe that
we're all like Lady Hatfield now,
958
01:07:50,230 --> 01:07:54,198
we're having a lovely, comfortable time
with our electric blankets and our chicken,
959
01:07:54,199 --> 01:07:58,498
and meanwhile we're starving because
we're so cut off from contact with reality
960
01:07:58,499 --> 01:08:02,221
that we're not getting any real
sustenance. 'Cause we don't see the world.
961
01:08:02,222 --> 01:08:06,264
We don't see ourselves. We don't see
how our actions affect other people.
962
01:08:06,265 --> 01:08:09,410
Have you read Martin
Buber's bookOn Hasidism?
963
01:08:09,411 --> 01:08:11,858
- No.
- Oh, well here's a view of life!
964
01:08:11,859 --> 01:08:16,806
He talks about the belief of the Hasidic Jews
that there are spirits chained in everything.
965
01:08:16,807 --> 01:08:19,391
There are spirits chained in you,
there are spirits chained in me.
966
01:08:19,392 --> 01:08:22,220
Well! There are spirits
chained in this table!
967
01:08:22,221 --> 01:08:27,563
And that prayer is the action of liberating
these enchained embryo-like spirits,
968
01:08:27,564 --> 01:08:32,870
and that every action of ours in life,
whether it's doing business or making love,
969
01:08:32,871 --> 01:08:34,614
or having dinner together, whatever,
970
01:08:34,615 --> 01:08:39,473
that every action of ours should be
a prayer, a sacrament in the world.
971
01:08:39,474 --> 01:08:43,835
Now, do you think we're living like that?
Why do you think we're not living like that?
972
01:08:43,836 --> 01:08:47,358
I think it's because if we allowed
ourselves to see what we do every day
973
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:51,416
we might just find it too nauseating.
I mean, the way we treat other people.
974
01:08:51,417 --> 01:08:54,986
Every day, several times a day,
I walk into my apartment building,
975
01:08:54,987 --> 01:08:58,395
the doorman calls me Mr.
Gregory and I call him Jimmy.
976
01:08:58,396 --> 01:09:04,429
All right, what's the difference between that and
the southern plantation owner who's got slaves?
977
01:09:04,430 --> 01:09:09,818
You see, I think that an act of murder is committed
in that moment when I walk into that building.
978
01:09:09,819 --> 01:09:16,094
because here's a dignified, intelligent man,
a man of my own age, and when I call him Jimmy
979
01:09:16,095 --> 01:09:20,343
then he becomes a child and I'm an adult
because I can buy my way into the building!
980
01:09:20,344 --> 01:09:24,592
Right. That's right. I mean, my God!
981
01:09:24,593 --> 01:09:30,678
When I was a Latin teacher, I mean,
people used to treat me, I mean, you know,
982
01:09:30,679 --> 01:09:35,325
if I would go to a party of professional
or "literary" people, I mean,
983
01:09:35,325 --> 01:09:39,807
I was just treated, in the nicest
sense of the word, like a dog!
984
01:09:39,808 --> 01:09:43,764
In other words, there was no question
of my being able to participate
985
01:09:43,765 --> 01:09:46,473
on an equal basis in the
conversation with people.
986
01:09:46,474 --> 01:09:51,362
I'd occasionally have conversations with
people, but then when they asked what I did,
987
01:09:51,363 --> 01:09:56,296
which would always happen after about
five minutes, you know, their faces--
988
01:09:56,297 --> 01:09:58,086
Even if they were
enjoying the conversation,
989
01:09:58,087 --> 01:10:00,106
or they were flirting
with me or whatever it was,
990
01:10:00,107 --> 01:10:03,609
their faces would just have that expression
just like the portcullis crashing down,
991
01:10:03,610 --> 01:10:05,407
you know, those medieval gates?
992
01:10:05,408 --> 01:10:09,774
They would just walk away!
I mean, I literally lived like a dog.
993
01:10:09,775 --> 01:10:13,762
And I mean, when Debby was
working as a secretary, you know,
994
01:10:13,763 --> 01:10:17,967
if she would tell people what she
did, they would just go insane!
995
01:10:17,968 --> 01:10:19,506
I mean, it would be
just as if she'd said:
996
01:10:19,507 --> 01:10:25,589
"Oh, well! I've been serving a life
sentence recently for child murdering!"
997
01:10:26,339 --> 01:10:30,514
I mean, my God, you know, when you talk
about our attitudes toward other people.
998
01:10:30,515 --> 01:10:37,881
I mean, I think of myself as just a
very decent, good person, you know,
999
01:10:37,882 --> 01:10:42,211
just because I think I'm reasonably friendly to
most of the people I happen to meet every day.
1000
01:10:42,212 --> 01:10:45,315
I mean, I really think
of myself quite smugly.
1001
01:10:45,316 --> 01:10:51,293
I just think I'm a perfectly nice guy, so
long as I think of the world as consisting of
1002
01:10:51,294 --> 01:10:54,610
just the small circle of the
people that I know as friends
1003
01:10:54,611 --> 01:10:57,732
or the few people that we know in this
little world of our little hobbies,
1004
01:10:57,733 --> 01:10:58,908
the theater or whatever it is.
1005
01:10:58,909 --> 01:11:02,640
And I'm really quite self-satisfied.
I'm just quite happy with myself.
1006
01:11:02,641 --> 01:11:04,870
I just have no complaint about myself.
1007
01:11:04,871 --> 01:11:10,173
Let's face it, there's a whole enormous world
out there that I just don't ever think about.
1008
01:11:10,174 --> 01:11:15,132
And I certainly don't take responsibility
for how I've lived in that world.
1009
01:11:15,133 --> 01:11:18,147
If I were to actually
sort of confront the fact
1010
01:11:18,147 --> 01:11:23,111
that I'm sort of sharing this stage with
this starving person in Africa somewhere,
1011
01:11:23,112 --> 01:11:25,663
well, I wouldn't feel
so great about myself.
1012
01:11:25,664 --> 01:11:29,990
So naturally I just blot all those
people right out of my perception.
1013
01:11:29,991 --> 01:11:35,909
So, of course, of course, I'm ignoring
a whole section of the real world!
1014
01:11:35,910 --> 01:11:42,117
But, frankly, you know, when
I write a play, in a way,
1015
01:11:42,152 --> 01:11:44,352
one of the things I guess
I think I'm trying to do is
1016
01:11:44,353 --> 01:11:47,156
I'm trying to bring myself up
against some little bits of reality,
1017
01:11:47,157 --> 01:11:50,588
and I'm trying to share
that with an audience.
1018
01:11:50,589 --> 01:11:57,598
I mean... of course, we all know the
theater is in terrible shape today.
1019
01:11:59,185 --> 01:12:02,865
At least a few years ago people who
really cared about the theater used to say
1020
01:12:02,866 --> 01:12:03,866
the theater is dead!
1021
01:12:03,867 --> 01:12:07,873
And now everybody has redefined the
theater in such a trivial way that,
1022
01:12:07,874 --> 01:12:13,088
I mean, God! I know people who are involved
with the theater who go to see things now that,
1023
01:12:13,089 --> 01:12:17,173
I mean, a few years ago these same
people would have just been embarrassed
1024
01:12:17,174 --> 01:12:19,114
to have even seen some of these plays.
1025
01:12:19,115 --> 01:12:23,868
They would have just shrunk, you know, just in
horror at the superficiality of these things.
1026
01:12:23,869 --> 01:12:28,029
But now they say: "Oh, that was
pretty good." It's just incredible!
1027
01:12:28,030 --> 01:12:32,193
And I really just find
that attitude unbearable,
1028
01:12:32,194 --> 01:12:36,063
because I really do think the theater
can do something very important.
1029
01:12:36,064 --> 01:12:40,666
I do think the theater can help
bring people in contact with reality!
1030
01:12:40,667 --> 01:12:45,476
Now, now, you may not feel that at all. I
mean, you may just find that totally absurd!
1031
01:12:45,477 --> 01:12:49,304
Yeah, but Wally! Don't
you see the dilemma?
1032
01:12:49,305 --> 01:12:53,630
You're not taking into account
the period we're living in.
1033
01:12:53,631 --> 01:12:56,471
I mean, of course that's
what the theater should do.
1034
01:12:56,472 --> 01:12:57,472
I've always felt that.
1035
01:12:57,473 --> 01:13:01,546
You know, when I was a young director
and I directedThe Bacchae at Yale?
1036
01:13:01,547 --> 01:13:05,283
My impulse--when Pentheus has been
killed by his mother and the furies,
1037
01:13:05,284 --> 01:13:09,108
and they pull the tree back and they tie
him to the tree and fling him into the air,
1038
01:13:09,109 --> 01:13:11,163
and he flies through
space and he's killed,
1039
01:13:11,164 --> 01:13:13,857
and they rip him to shreds
and, I guess, cut off his head--
1040
01:13:13,858 --> 01:13:17,971
My impulse was that the thing to do was
to get a head, from the New Haven morgue,
1041
01:13:17,972 --> 01:13:19,596
and pass it around the audience!
1042
01:13:19,597 --> 01:13:25,656
I wanted Agawe to bring on a real head, and that
this head should be passed around the audience
1043
01:13:25,657 --> 01:13:30,843
so that somehow people realized that this
stuff was real, see, that it was real stuff!
1044
01:13:30,844 --> 01:13:35,227
Now the actress playing Agawe
absolutely refused to do it.
1045
01:13:35,869 --> 01:13:41,189
Gordon Craig used to talk about why is there
gold or silver in the churches or something,
1046
01:13:41,190 --> 01:13:45,633
the great cathedrals, when actors
could be wearing gold and silver!
1047
01:13:45,634 --> 01:13:49,639
And people who saw Eleanora Duse in the
last couple of years of her life, Wally,
1048
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:54,916
people said that it was like seeing light on
stage, or mist, or the essence of something!
1049
01:13:54,917 --> 01:13:59,456
Then when you think about Bertolt
Brecht, he somehow created a theater
1050
01:13:59,457 --> 01:14:03,175
in which people could observe, that
was vastly entertaining and exciting,
1051
01:14:03,176 --> 01:14:06,098
but in which the excitement
didn't overwhelm you.
1052
01:14:06,099 --> 01:14:10,828
He somehow allowed you the distance
between the play and yourself,
1053
01:14:10,829 --> 01:14:14,127
that in fact two human beings
need in order to live together.
1054
01:14:14,128 --> 01:14:19,561
The question is whether the theater now can
do for an audience what Brecht tried to do,
1055
01:14:19,562 --> 01:14:23,156
or what Craig or Duse tried
to do. Can it do it now?
1056
01:14:23,157 --> 01:14:28,053
You see, I think that people today are so
deeply asleep that unless you're putting on
1057
01:14:28,054 --> 01:14:31,847
those sort of superficial plays that just
help your audience to sleep more comfortably,
1058
01:14:31,848 --> 01:14:34,683
it's very hard to know
what to do in the theater!
1059
01:14:36,207 --> 01:14:43,031
'Cause, you see, I think that if you put on
serious contemporary plays by writers like yourself,
1060
01:14:43,032 --> 01:14:46,068
you may only be helping to deaden
the audience in a different way.
1061
01:14:46,069 --> 01:14:47,069
What do you mean?
1062
01:14:47,070 --> 01:14:54,567
Well, I mean, Wally: how does it affect
an audience to put on one of these plays
1063
01:14:54,568 --> 01:14:57,427
in which you show that people
are totally isolated now,
1064
01:14:57,428 --> 01:15:00,645
and they can't reach each other,
and their lives are desperate?
1065
01:15:00,646 --> 01:15:04,123
Or how does it affect them
to see a play that shows that
1066
01:15:04,124 --> 01:15:08,647
our world is full of nothing but shocking
sexual events and terror and violence?
1067
01:15:08,648 --> 01:15:12,604
Does that help to wake up a sleeping
audience? See, I don't think so.
1068
01:15:12,605 --> 01:15:16,311
Because I think it's very likely that the
picture of the world that you're showing them
1069
01:15:16,312 --> 01:15:20,364
in a play like that is exactly the
picture of the world they have already.
1070
01:15:20,365 --> 01:15:25,289
They know their own lives and
relationships are difficult and painful.
1071
01:15:25,290 --> 01:15:27,624
And if they watch the evening
news on television, well,
1072
01:15:27,625 --> 01:15:33,083
there what they see is a terrifying,
chaotic universe full of rapes and murders,
1073
01:15:33,084 --> 01:15:38,626
and hands cut off by subway cars, and
children pushing their parents out of windows!
1074
01:15:38,627 --> 01:15:42,300
So the play tells them that their
impression of the world is correct
1075
01:15:42,301 --> 01:15:44,277
and that there is absolutely no way out.
1076
01:15:44,278 --> 01:15:48,668
There's nothing they can do. And they
end up feeling passive and impotent!
1077
01:15:48,669 --> 01:15:54,175
Look at something like that christening, that
my group arranged for me in the forest of Poland,
1078
01:15:54,176 --> 01:15:57,358
well, there was an example of something
that had all the elements of theater:
1079
01:15:57,359 --> 01:16:00,348
it was worked on carefully,
it was thought about carefully,
1080
01:16:00,349 --> 01:16:05,212
it was done with exquisite taste and magic.
And they had in fact created something!
1081
01:16:05,213 --> 01:16:08,974
In this case it was in a way just
for an audience of one, just for me,
1082
01:16:08,975 --> 01:16:13,802
but they created something, that had
ritual, love, surprise, denouement,
1083
01:16:13,803 --> 01:16:18,076
beginning, middle and end, and was an
incredibly beautiful piece of theater!
1084
01:16:18,077 --> 01:16:22,880
And the impact that it had on its audience,
on me, was somehow a totally positive one:
1085
01:16:22,881 --> 01:16:25,705
it didn't deaden me,
it brought me to life!
1086
01:16:28,447 --> 01:16:31,836
Yeah, but I mean, are you saying
that it's impossible, I mean...
1087
01:16:34,089 --> 01:16:37,304
Isn't it a little upsetting to come
to the conclusion that there's...
1088
01:16:37,305 --> 01:16:39,420
no way to wake people up any more?
1089
01:16:39,421 --> 01:16:43,678
Except to involve them in some kind
of a strange christening in Poland,
1090
01:16:43,679 --> 01:16:46,752
or some kind of a strange
experience on top of Mount Everest?
1091
01:16:47,282 --> 01:16:51,846
Because you know, the awful thing
is that if you're really saying that
1092
01:16:51,847 --> 01:16:57,146
it's necessary to take everybody
to Everest, it's really tough!
1093
01:16:57,147 --> 01:16:59,394
Because everybody can't
be taken to Everest!
1094
01:16:59,395 --> 01:17:01,711
There must have been periods in history
1095
01:17:01,712 --> 01:17:06,404
when it would have been possible to "save
the patient" through less drastic measures.
1096
01:17:06,405 --> 01:17:10,793
There must have been periods when in order to
give people a strong or meaningful experience
1097
01:17:10,794 --> 01:17:13,381
you wouldn't actually have
to take them to Everest!
1098
01:17:13,382 --> 01:17:16,363
But you do, now! In some
way or other you do, now!
1099
01:17:16,364 --> 01:17:18,795
I mean, you know, there was a time
when you could have just, for instance,
1100
01:17:18,796 --> 01:17:22,785
written, I don't know,Sense
and Sensibility, by Jane Austen!
1101
01:17:22,786 --> 01:17:26,796
And I'm sure the people who read it had a
pretty strong experience. I'm sure they did.
1102
01:17:26,831 --> 01:17:30,492
All right, now you're saying that people
today wouldn't get it, and maybe that's true,
1103
01:17:30,493 --> 01:17:33,196
but isn't there any kind of writing,
or any kind of a play that-- I mean:
1104
01:17:33,197 --> 01:17:38,468
isn't it still legitimate for writers to try
to portray reality so that people can see it?
1105
01:17:38,469 --> 01:17:40,024
I mean, really! Tell me:
1106
01:17:40,025 --> 01:17:45,573
why do we require a trip to Mount Everest in
order to be able to perceive one moment of reality?
1107
01:17:45,574 --> 01:17:50,667
I mean: is Mount Everest more "real" than
New York? I mean, isn't New York "real"?
1108
01:17:52,203 --> 01:17:58,487
If you could become fully aware of what existed
in the cigar store next door to this restaurant,
1109
01:17:58,488 --> 01:18:00,484
I think it would just
blow your brains out!
1110
01:18:00,485 --> 01:18:03,882
I mean, isn't there just as much "reality"
to be perceived in the cigar store
1111
01:18:03,883 --> 01:18:05,652
as there is on Mount Everest?
I mean, what do you think?
1112
01:18:05,653 --> 01:18:09,240
You see, I think that not only is there
nothing more real about Mount Everest,
1113
01:18:09,241 --> 01:18:11,487
I think there's nothing that
different, in a certain way.
1114
01:18:11,488 --> 01:18:14,269
I mean, because reality
is uniform, in a way.
1115
01:18:14,270 --> 01:18:19,179
So that if you're--if your perceptions--I mean,
if your own mechanism is operating correctly,
1116
01:18:19,180 --> 01:18:22,980
it would become irrelevant to go to
Mount Everest, and sort of absurd!
1117
01:18:22,981 --> 01:18:25,735
Because, I mean, it's just--I mean,
of course, on some level, I mean,
1118
01:18:25,736 --> 01:18:29,558
obviously it's very different from a cigar
store on Seventh Avenue, but I mean...
1119
01:18:29,559 --> 01:18:32,228
But, well, I agree with you, Wally!
1120
01:18:32,229 --> 01:18:35,382
But the problem is that people
can't see the cigar store, now.
1121
01:18:35,383 --> 01:18:38,028
I mean, things don't affect
people the way they used to.
1122
01:18:38,029 --> 01:18:42,459
It may very well be that ten years from now
people will pay 10.000$ in cash
1123
01:18:42,460 --> 01:18:46,793
to be castrated, just in order
to be affected by something!
1124
01:18:46,793 --> 01:18:50,975
Well, why...why do you think
that is? I mean, why is that?
1125
01:18:50,976 --> 01:18:54,946
I mean, is it just because people
are lazy today? Or they're bored?
1126
01:18:54,947 --> 01:19:01,061
Are we just like bored, spoiled children
who've just been lying in the bathtub all day
1127
01:19:01,062 --> 01:19:07,497
just playing with their plastic duck and now
they're just thinking: "Well! what can I do?"
1128
01:19:08,179 --> 01:19:13,264
Okay! Yes! We're bored!
We're all bored now!
1129
01:19:13,265 --> 01:19:17,110
But has it ever occurred to you, Wally, that
the process that creates this boredom we see
1130
01:19:17,111 --> 01:19:22,366
in the world now may very well be a
self-perpetuating, unconscious form of brain-washing,
1131
01:19:22,367 --> 01:19:26,020
created by a world totalitarian
government based on money?
1132
01:19:26,021 --> 01:19:28,621
And that all of this is much
more dangerous than one thinks?
1133
01:19:28,622 --> 01:19:31,675
And it's not just a question
of individual survival, Wally,
1134
01:19:31,676 --> 01:19:37,208
but that somebody who's bored is asleep,
and somebody who's asleep will not say "no"?
1135
01:19:37,209 --> 01:19:40,509
See, I keep meeting these people,
I mean, uh, just a few days ago
1136
01:19:40,510 --> 01:19:44,660
I met this man whom I greatly admire, he's
a Swedish physicist, Gustav Bj�rnstrand?
1137
01:19:44,661 --> 01:19:47,462
And he told me that he no
longer watches television,
1138
01:19:47,463 --> 01:19:50,226
he doesn't read newspapers
and he doesn't read magazines.
1139
01:19:50,227 --> 01:19:52,700
He's completely cut them out of his life,
1140
01:19:52,701 --> 01:19:57,232
because he really does feel that we're living
in some kind of Orwellian nightmare now,
1141
01:19:57,233 --> 01:20:01,788
and that everything that you hear now
contributes to turning you into a robot!
1142
01:20:01,789 --> 01:20:05,932
And when I was at Findhorn, I met
this extraordinary English tree expert,
1143
01:20:05,933 --> 01:20:08,402
who had devoted his life to saving trees.
1144
01:20:08,403 --> 01:20:11,081
He just got back from Washington,
lobbying to save the redwoods?
1145
01:20:11,082 --> 01:20:13,802
He's eighty-four years old and
he always travels with a back-pack
1146
01:20:13,803 --> 01:20:15,750
'cause he never knows where
he's gonna be tomorrow!
1147
01:20:15,751 --> 01:20:19,166
And when I met him at Findhorn he
said to me: "Where are you from?"
1148
01:20:19,167 --> 01:20:21,924
And I said: "New York." He said: "Ah, New
York! Yes, that's a very interesting place.
1149
01:20:21,925 --> 01:20:23,710
Do you know a lot of New
Yorkers who keep talking
1150
01:20:23,711 --> 01:20:25,697
about the fact that they
want to leave but never do?"
1151
01:20:25,698 --> 01:20:28,763
And I said: "Oh, yes!" And he said:
"Why do you think they don't leave?"
1152
01:20:28,764 --> 01:20:32,704
I gave him different banal theories. He said:
"Oh, I don't think it's that way at all."
1153
01:20:32,705 --> 01:20:37,478
He said: "I think that New York is the
new model for the new concentration camp,
1154
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:41,709
where the camp has been built by the inmates
themselves, and the inmates are the guards,
1155
01:20:41,710 --> 01:20:45,206
and they have this pride in this thing
they've built, they've built their own prison.
1156
01:20:45,207 --> 01:20:49,776
And so they exist in a state of schizophrenia,
where they are both guards and prisoners.
1157
01:20:49,777 --> 01:20:54,052
And as a result they no longer have,
having been lobotomized, the capacity
1158
01:20:54,053 --> 01:20:58,496
to leave the prison they've made,
or to even see it as a prison.
1159
01:20:58,497 --> 01:21:02,189
And then he went into his pocket and he
took out a seed for a tree, and he said:
1160
01:21:02,190 --> 01:21:08,278
"This is a pine tree." He put it in my hand
and he said: "Escape, before it's too late."
1161
01:21:08,279 --> 01:21:11,687
You see, actually, for
two or three years now
1162
01:21:11,688 --> 01:21:16,136
Chiquita and I have had this very unpleasant
feeling that we really should get out.
1163
01:21:16,137 --> 01:21:20,649
No, we really should feel like Jews in
Germany in the late thirties? Get out of here!
1164
01:21:20,650 --> 01:21:22,989
Of course, the problem is where to go,
1165
01:21:22,990 --> 01:21:28,243
'cause it seems quite obvious that the
whole world is going in the same direction.
1166
01:21:28,244 --> 01:21:32,411
You see, I think it's quite possible that
1167
01:21:32,412 --> 01:21:38,160
the 1960s represented the last burst of
the human being before he was extinguished.
1168
01:21:38,161 --> 01:21:41,937
And that this is the beginning of the rest
of the future now, and that from now on
1169
01:21:41,938 --> 01:21:47,255
there'll simply be all these robots walking
around, feeling nothing, thinking nothing.
1170
01:21:47,256 --> 01:21:50,871
And there'll be nobody left
almost to remind them that
1171
01:21:50,872 --> 01:21:55,828
there once was a species called a
human being, with feelings and thoughts.
1172
01:21:55,829 --> 01:21:59,045
And that history and memory
are right now being erased,
1173
01:21:59,046 --> 01:22:04,618
and soon nobody will really remember
that life existed on the planet!
1174
01:22:06,054 --> 01:22:10,409
Now, of course, Bj�rnstrand feels
that there's really almost no hope.
1175
01:22:10,410 --> 01:22:16,534
And that we're probably going back to a
very savage, lawless, terrifying period.
1176
01:22:16,535 --> 01:22:19,341
Findhorn people see it
a little differently.
1177
01:22:19,376 --> 01:22:24,661
They're feeling there'll be these "pockets of
light" springing up in different parts of the world,
1178
01:22:24,662 --> 01:22:29,281
and that these will be in a way
invisible planets on this planet, and that
1179
01:22:29,282 --> 01:22:34,961
as we, or the world, grow colder, we can take
invisible space journeys to these different planets,
1180
01:22:34,962 --> 01:22:40,238
refuel for what it is we need to do
on the planet itself, and come back.
1181
01:22:40,239 --> 01:22:43,860
And it's their feeling that
there have to be centers, now,
1182
01:22:43,861 --> 01:22:48,203
where people can come and reconstruct
a new future for the world.
1183
01:22:48,204 --> 01:22:51,769
And when I was talking to Gustav
Bj�rnstrand, he was saying that actually,
1184
01:22:51,770 --> 01:22:53,793
these centers are
growing up everywhere now!
1185
01:22:53,794 --> 01:22:57,247
And that what they're trying to do,
which is what Findhorn was trying to do,
1186
01:22:57,248 --> 01:23:02,711
and in a way what I was trying to do...I mean,
these things can't be given names, but in a way,
1187
01:23:02,712 --> 01:23:08,266
these are all attempts at creating a new
kind of school, or a new kind of monastery.
1188
01:23:08,267 --> 01:23:12,134
And Bj�rnstrand talks about the
concept of reserves, islands of safety,
1189
01:23:12,135 --> 01:23:16,375
where history can be remembered, and
the human being can continue to function
1190
01:23:16,376 --> 01:23:20,504
in order to maintain the
species through a dark age.
1191
01:23:20,505 --> 01:23:26,497
In other words we're talking about an
underground, which did exist in a different way
1192
01:23:26,498 --> 01:23:29,780
during the Dark Ages among the
mystical orders of the Church.
1193
01:23:29,781 --> 01:23:38,525
And the purpose of this underground is to find
out how to preserve the light, life, the culture.
1194
01:23:38,526 --> 01:23:42,272
How to keep things living.
1195
01:23:42,273 --> 01:23:46,018
You see, I keep thinking that
what we need is a new language,
1196
01:23:46,019 --> 01:23:52,965
a language of the heart, languages in the
Polish forest where language wasn't needed.
1197
01:23:52,966 --> 01:23:58,280
Some kind of language between
people that is a new kind of poetry,
1198
01:23:58,281 --> 01:24:02,956
that's the poetry of the dancing
bee that tells us where the honey is.
1199
01:24:02,957 --> 01:24:07,095
And I think that in order to create
that language, you're going to have to
1200
01:24:07,095 --> 01:24:11,850
learn how you can go through a looking
glass into another kind of perception,
1201
01:24:11,851 --> 01:24:21,343
where you have that sense of being united to all
things. And suddenly, you understand everything.
1202
01:24:29,429 --> 01:24:31,008
Are you ready for some desert?
1203
01:24:31,009 --> 01:24:34,052
Ah, I think I'll just have
an espresso, thank you.
1204
01:24:34,087 --> 01:24:41,242
I'll also have one. Thank you.
And could I also have an Amaretto?
1205
01:24:41,243 --> 01:24:44,743
- Certainly, sir.
- Thank you.
1206
01:24:46,171 --> 01:24:50,828
You see, Wally, there's this incredible
building that they built at Findhorn.
1207
01:24:50,829 --> 01:24:55,083
The man who designed it had never designed
anything in his life; he wrote children's books!
1208
01:24:55,084 --> 01:24:58,576
And some people wanted it to
be a sort of hall of meditation,
1209
01:24:58,577 --> 01:25:01,092
and others wanted it to
be a kind of lecture hall,
1210
01:25:01,093 --> 01:25:05,340
but the psychic part of the community
wanted it to serve another function as well.
1211
01:25:05,341 --> 01:25:09,189
Because they wanted it to be a kind of
spaceship which at night could rise up and
1212
01:25:09,190 --> 01:25:13,783
let the UFOs know that this was a safe place
to land, and that they would find friends there?
1213
01:25:13,784 --> 01:25:17,681
So, the problem was--'cause it
needed a massive kind of roof--
1214
01:25:17,682 --> 01:25:21,063
was how to have a roof that
would stay on the building
1215
01:25:21,064 --> 01:25:24,532
but at the same time be able to fly up
at night and meet the flying saucers?
1216
01:25:24,533 --> 01:25:28,446
So, the architect meditated and
meditated, and he finally came up
1217
01:25:28,447 --> 01:25:32,647
with the very simple solution of not
actually joining the roof to the building!
1218
01:25:32,648 --> 01:25:37,850
Which means that it should fall off, because
they have great gales up in northern Scotland.
1219
01:25:37,851 --> 01:25:42,792
So, to keep it from falling off, he got
beach stones from the beach, or we did,
1220
01:25:42,793 --> 01:25:46,384
'cause I worked on this building, all
up and down the roof just like that,
1221
01:25:46,385 --> 01:25:52,617
and the idea was that the energy that would
flow from stone to stone would be so strong,
1222
01:25:52,618 --> 01:25:56,424
you see, that it would keep the
roof down under any conditions,
1223
01:25:56,425 --> 01:26:00,094
but at the same time if the roof needed to
go up, it would be light enough to go up!
1224
01:26:00,095 --> 01:26:04,712
Well, it works, you see.
1225
01:26:04,713 --> 01:26:09,390
Now, architects don't know why it works, and
it shouldn't work, 'cause it should fall off,
1226
01:26:09,391 --> 01:26:16,586
but it works, it does work: the gales blow and
the roof should fall off, but it doesn't fall off.
1227
01:26:19,653 --> 01:26:28,071
Yep. Well, uh. D'you wanna know
my actual response to all this?
1228
01:26:28,072 --> 01:26:30,296
- Do you want to hear my actual response?
- Yes!
1229
01:26:32,008 --> 01:26:39,793
See, my actual response, I mean...I mean...I
mean, I'm just trying to survive, you know.
1230
01:26:39,794 --> 01:26:45,792
I mean, I'm just trying to earn a living,
just trying to pay my rents and my bills.
1231
01:26:45,793 --> 01:26:53,979
I mean, uh...ahhh. I live my life,
I enjoy staying home with Debby.
1232
01:26:53,980 --> 01:26:59,031
I'm reading Charlton Heston's
autobiography, and that's that!
1233
01:26:59,032 --> 01:27:06,459
I mean, occasionally maybe Debby and I will
step outside, we'll go to a party or something,
1234
01:27:06,460 --> 01:27:09,213
and if I can occasionally
get my little talent together
1235
01:27:09,214 --> 01:27:12,488
and write a little play, well
then that's just wonderful.
1236
01:27:12,489 --> 01:27:15,952
And I mean, I enjoy reading about other
little plays that other people have written,
1237
01:27:15,953 --> 01:27:19,287
and reading the reviews of those
plays, and what people said about them,
1238
01:27:19,288 --> 01:27:21,627
and what people said about
what people said, and....
1239
01:27:21,628 --> 01:27:27,106
And I mean, I have a list of errands and
responsibilities that I keep in a notebook;
1240
01:27:27,107 --> 01:27:31,165
I enjoy going through the notebook,
carrying out the responsibilities,
1241
01:27:31,166 --> 01:27:35,143
doing the errands, then
crossing them off the list!
1242
01:27:35,144 --> 01:27:39,636
And I mean, I just don't know
how anybody could enjoy anything
1243
01:27:39,637 --> 01:27:45,563
more than I enjoy reading Charlton
Heston's autobiography, or, you know,
1244
01:27:45,564 --> 01:27:49,226
getting up in the morning and
having the cup of cold coffee
1245
01:27:49,227 --> 01:27:53,379
that's been waiting for me all night,
still there for me to drink in the morning!
1246
01:27:53,380 --> 01:27:57,222
And no cockroach or fly
has died in it overnight.
1247
01:27:57,223 --> 01:28:03,307
I'm just so thrilled when I get up and I see
that coffee there just the way I wanted it,
1248
01:28:03,308 --> 01:28:08,468
I just can't imagine how anybody could
enjoy something else any more than that!
1249
01:28:08,469 --> 01:28:12,395
I mean, obviously, if the cockroach--if
there is a dead cockroach in it,
1250
01:28:12,396 --> 01:28:15,064
well, then I just have a feeling
of disappointment, and I'm sad.
1251
01:28:15,064 --> 01:28:20,841
But I mean, I just don't think I feel
the need for anything more than all this.
1252
01:28:20,842 --> 01:28:25,483
Whereas, you know, you
seem to be saying that
1253
01:28:25,483 --> 01:28:30,088
it's inconceivable that anybody could
be having a meaningful life today,
1254
01:28:30,089 --> 01:28:34,708
and you know, everyone is totally destroyed.
And we all need to live in these outposts.
1255
01:28:34,709 --> 01:28:38,319
But I mean, you know, I just can't believe,
even for you, I mean, don't you find...?
1256
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:44,069
Isn't it pleasant just to get up in the morning,
and there's Chiquita, there are the children,
1257
01:28:44,070 --> 01:28:47,016
and the Times is
delivered, you can read it!
1258
01:28:47,017 --> 01:28:50,057
I mean, maybe you'll direct a
play, maybe you won't direct a play,
1259
01:28:50,058 --> 01:28:54,289
but forget about the play that you may or
may not direct. Why is it necessary to...
1260
01:28:54,290 --> 01:28:57,635
why not lean back and
just enjoy these details?
1261
01:28:57,636 --> 01:29:01,796
I mean, and there'd be a delicious cup
of coffee and a piece of coffee cake.
1262
01:29:01,797 --> 01:29:07,466
Why is it necessary to have more than this,
or to even think about having more than this.
1263
01:29:07,467 --> 01:29:11,265
I mean, I don't really know
what you're talking about.
1264
01:29:11,266 --> 01:29:17,582
I mean I know what you're talking about, but
I don't really know what you're talking about.
1265
01:29:17,583 --> 01:29:21,077
And I mean, you know, even if I were to
totally agree with you, you know, and even
1266
01:29:21,078 --> 01:29:26,086
if I were to accept the idea that there's just
no way for anybody to have personal happiness
1267
01:29:26,087 --> 01:29:28,417
now, well, you know, I still
couldn't accept the idea
1268
01:29:28,417 --> 01:29:33,970
that the way to make life wonderful would be
to just totally reject western civilization
1269
01:29:33,971 --> 01:29:37,716
and fall back into some kind of belief
in some kind of weird something. I mean...
1270
01:29:37,717 --> 01:29:40,879
I don't even know how to begin talking
about this, but, do you know...?
1271
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:47,172
In the Middle Ages, before the arrival of
scientific thinking as we know it today,
1272
01:29:47,173 --> 01:29:50,665
well, people could believe
anything. Anything could be true:
1273
01:29:50,666 --> 01:29:54,232
the statue of the Virgin Mary could
speak, or bleed, or whatever it was.
1274
01:29:54,233 --> 01:29:58,309
But the wonderful thing that happened was
that then in the development of science
1275
01:29:58,310 --> 01:30:04,162
in the western world, well, certain things
did come slowly to be known, and understood.
1276
01:30:04,163 --> 01:30:11,140
I mean, you know, obviously all ideas
in science are constantly being revised;
1277
01:30:11,141 --> 01:30:16,575
That's the whole point. But we do at least
know that the universe has some shape,
1278
01:30:16,576 --> 01:30:22,163
and order, and that, you know, trees
do not turn into people, or goddesses.
1279
01:30:22,164 --> 01:30:26,874
And they're very good reasons why they don't,
and you can't just believe absolutely anything!
1280
01:30:26,875 --> 01:30:29,292
Whereas the things that
you're talking about, I mean...
1281
01:30:29,293 --> 01:30:34,475
You found the hand print in the
book, and there were three Andr�s
1282
01:30:34,476 --> 01:30:39,375
and one Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry,
and to me that is a coincidence!
1283
01:30:39,376 --> 01:30:41,981
But, and then, you know, the
people who put that book together,
1284
01:30:41,982 --> 01:30:46,299
well, they had their own reasons for putting
it together. But to you it was significant,
1285
01:30:46,300 --> 01:30:49,232
as if that book had been written forty
years ago so that you would see it;
1286
01:30:49,233 --> 01:30:51,846
as if it was planned for you, in a way.
1287
01:30:51,847 --> 01:30:55,229
I mean, really, I mean....
I mean, all right. Let's say:
1288
01:30:55,264 --> 01:31:01,231
if I get a fortune cookie in a Chinese
restaurant, of course, even I have a tendency,
1289
01:31:01,232 --> 01:31:04,096
I mean, of course, I
would hardly throw it out!
1290
01:31:04,097 --> 01:31:10,250
I mean, I read it, and I just instinctively
sort of, you know, if it says something like:
1291
01:31:10,251 --> 01:31:14,427
"Conversation with a dark-haired
man will be very important for you,"
1292
01:31:14,428 --> 01:31:17,074
well, I just instinctively think, you
know, who do I know who has dark hair?
1293
01:31:17,075 --> 01:31:19,862
Did we have a conversation?
What did we talk about?
1294
01:31:19,863 --> 01:31:24,567
In other words there's something
in me that makes me read it,
1295
01:31:24,568 --> 01:31:28,346
and I instinctively interpret it
as if it were an omen of the future,
1296
01:31:28,347 --> 01:31:31,910
but in my conscious opinion, which is
so fundamental to my whole view of life,
1297
01:31:31,911 --> 01:31:34,817
I mean, I would just have to change
totally to not have this opinion,
1298
01:31:34,818 --> 01:31:38,576
in my conscious opinion, this is simply
something that was written in the cookie factory,
1299
01:31:38,577 --> 01:31:41,591
several years ago, and
in no way it refers to me!
1300
01:31:41,592 --> 01:31:47,145
The fact that I got--I mean, the man who
wrote it did not know anything about me,
1301
01:31:47,146 --> 01:31:49,143
I mean, he could not have
known anything about me!
1302
01:31:49,144 --> 01:31:51,533
There's no way that this cookie
could actually have to do with me!
1303
01:31:51,534 --> 01:31:54,206
And the fact that I've gotten
it is just basically a joke!
1304
01:31:54,207 --> 01:31:59,350
And if I were to go on a trip, on an airplane,
and I got a fortune cookie that said "Don't go,"
1305
01:31:59,351 --> 01:32:05,151
of course, I admit I might feel a bit nervous
for about one second, but in fact I would go,
1306
01:32:05,152 --> 01:32:10,042
because that trip is gonna be successful or
unsuccessful based on the state of the airplane
1307
01:32:10,043 --> 01:32:14,044
and the state of the pilot, and the cookie
is in no position to know about that!
1308
01:32:14,045 --> 01:32:19,109
And I mean, you know, it's the same with
any kind of prophecy or sign or an omen,
1309
01:32:19,110 --> 01:32:23,479
because if you believe in omens,
then that means that the universe--
1310
01:32:23,480 --> 01:32:25,667
I mean, I don't even know
how to begin to describe this.
1311
01:32:25,668 --> 01:32:31,718
That means that the future is somehow
sending messages backwards to the present!
1312
01:32:31,719 --> 01:32:35,135
Which means that the future
must exist in some sense already
1313
01:32:35,136 --> 01:32:37,855
in order to be able
to send these messages.
1314
01:32:37,856 --> 01:32:42,537
And it also means that things in the universe
are there for a purpose: to give us messages.
1315
01:32:42,538 --> 01:32:46,154
Whereas I think that things in the universe are
just there. I mean, they don't mean anything.
1316
01:32:46,155 --> 01:32:51,524
If the turtle's egg falls out of the
tree and splashes on the paving stones,
1317
01:32:51,525 --> 01:32:54,465
it's just because that turtle
was clumsy, by accident.
1318
01:32:54,466 --> 01:33:01,062
And to decide whether to send my ships off to war
on the basis of that seems a big mistake to me.
1319
01:33:01,063 --> 01:33:04,675
Well, what information would
you send your ships to war on?
1320
01:33:04,675 --> 01:33:06,986
Because if it's all meaningless,
what's the difference
1321
01:33:06,986 --> 01:33:10,745
whether you accept the fortune cookie
or the statistics of the Ford foundation?
1322
01:33:10,780 --> 01:33:12,139
It doesn't seem to matter.
1323
01:33:12,140 --> 01:33:16,175
Well, the meaningless fact of the
fortune cookie or the turtle's egg
1324
01:33:16,176 --> 01:33:20,601
can't possibly have any relevance
to the subject you're analyzing.
1325
01:33:20,602 --> 01:33:25,500
Whereas a group of meaningless facts that are
collected and interpreted in a scientific way
1326
01:33:25,501 --> 01:33:27,281
may quite possibly be relevant.
1327
01:33:27,282 --> 01:33:30,458
Because the wonderful thing about
scientific theories about things
1328
01:33:30,459 --> 01:33:34,472
is that they're based on
experiments that can be repeated!
1329
01:33:52,019 --> 01:33:55,066
Well, it's true, Wally. I mean, you know,
1330
01:33:55,067 --> 01:33:59,793
following omens and so on is probably just
a way of letting ourselves off the hook,
1331
01:33:59,794 --> 01:34:04,022
so that we don't have to take individual
responsibility for our own actions.
1332
01:34:04,023 --> 01:34:06,777
I mean, giving yourself
over to the unconscious
1333
01:34:06,778 --> 01:34:11,821
can leave you vulnerable to all sorts
of very frightening manipulation.
1334
01:34:11,822 --> 01:34:15,014
And in all the work I was involved
in there was always that danger.
1335
01:34:15,015 --> 01:34:18,650
And there was always that question
of tampering with people's lives.
1336
01:34:18,651 --> 01:34:22,920
Because if I lead one of these workshops
then I do become partly a doctor
1337
01:34:22,921 --> 01:34:29,206
and partly a therapist and partly a priest,
and I'm not a doctor or a therapist or a priest.
1338
01:34:29,207 --> 01:34:34,717
And already some of these new monasteries or
communities or whatever we've been talking about,
1339
01:34:34,718 --> 01:34:40,423
are becoming institutionalized and I guess
even in a way at times sort of fascistic.
1340
01:34:40,424 --> 01:34:44,281
You know, there's a sort of self-satisfied,
elitist paranoia that grows up,
1341
01:34:44,282 --> 01:34:47,992
a feeling of "them" and
"us" that is very unsettling.
1342
01:34:47,993 --> 01:34:49,567
But I mean, the thing is, Wally,
1343
01:34:49,568 --> 01:34:54,096
I think it's the exaggerated worship of
science that has led us into this situation.
1344
01:34:54,097 --> 01:34:58,405
Science has been held up to us as a magical
force that would somehow solve everything,
1345
01:34:58,406 --> 01:35:02,707
but quite the contrary, it's done quite
the contrary, it's destroyed everything.
1346
01:35:02,708 --> 01:35:07,966
So, that is what has really led, I think, to
this very strong, deep reaction against science
1347
01:35:07,967 --> 01:35:09,382
that we're seeing now.
1348
01:35:09,383 --> 01:35:12,119
Just as the Nazi demons that were
released in the thirties in Germany
1349
01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:16,019
were probably a reaction against a
certain oppressive kind of knowledge
1350
01:35:16,020 --> 01:35:18,392
and culture and rational thinking.
1351
01:35:18,393 --> 01:35:22,103
So, I agree that we're talking about
something potentially very dangerous,
1352
01:35:22,104 --> 01:35:25,485
but modern science has not been
particularly less dangerous.
1353
01:35:25,486 --> 01:35:29,535
Right. Well, I agree with
you, I completely agree.
1354
01:35:31,422 --> 01:35:38,259
The truth is, I think I do know what really
disturbs me about the work you've described,
1355
01:35:38,260 --> 01:35:40,425
and I don't even know
if I can express it.
1356
01:35:40,426 --> 01:35:45,334
But somehow it seems that the whole point
of the work that you did in those workshops,
1357
01:35:45,335 --> 01:35:48,852
when you get right down to it and
you ask: what was it really about;
1358
01:35:48,853 --> 01:35:54,459
the whole point really, I think, was to enable
the people in the workshops, including yourself,
1359
01:35:54,460 --> 01:36:01,583
to somehow sort of strip away every scrap of
purposefulness from certain selected moments.
1360
01:36:01,584 --> 01:36:08,296
And the point of it was so that you would then
all be able to experience somehow just pure being.
1361
01:36:08,297 --> 01:36:11,694
In other words you were trying to discover what
it would be like to live for certain moments
1362
01:36:11,695 --> 01:36:14,916
without having any particular thing
that you were supposed to be doing.
1363
01:36:14,917 --> 01:36:17,567
And I think I just simply object to that.
1364
01:36:17,568 --> 01:36:20,056
I mean, I just don't
think I accept the idea
1365
01:36:20,057 --> 01:36:22,996
that there should be moments in which
you're not trying to do anything!
1366
01:36:22,997 --> 01:36:28,413
I think it's our nature to do
things, I think we should do things,
1367
01:36:28,414 --> 01:36:36,449
I think that purposefulness is part of
our ineradicable, basic human structure,
1368
01:36:36,450 --> 01:36:38,451
and to say that we ought to
be able to live without it
1369
01:36:38,452 --> 01:36:42,985
is like saying that a tree ought to be
able to live without branches or roots,
1370
01:36:42,986 --> 01:36:47,506
but actually, without branches or roots it
wouldn't be a tree. It would just be a log.
1371
01:36:47,507 --> 01:36:49,541
- You see what I'm saying?
- Uh-hunh.
1372
01:36:49,542 --> 01:36:53,528
In other words, if I'm sitting
at home and I have nothing to do,
1373
01:36:53,528 --> 01:36:55,840
well, I'd naturally reach for a book!
1374
01:36:55,841 --> 01:37:00,581
I mean, what would be so great about
just sitting there and doing nothing?
1375
01:37:00,582 --> 01:37:01,582
It just seems absurd.
1376
01:37:01,583 --> 01:37:02,583
And if Debby is there?
1377
01:37:05,309 --> 01:37:06,394
Well that's just the
same thing. I mean...
1378
01:37:06,395 --> 01:37:13,842
Is there really such a thing as two people
doing nothing but just being together?
1379
01:37:13,843 --> 01:37:18,866
Would they simply be "relating,"
to use the word we're always using?
1380
01:37:18,867 --> 01:37:22,651
I mean, what would that mean? I mean...I
mean, either we're gonna have a conversation,
1381
01:37:22,652 --> 01:37:28,818
or we're going to carry out the garbage, or,
we're gonna do something, separately or together.
1382
01:37:28,819 --> 01:37:34,375
I mean, do you see what I'm saying? I mean,
what does it mean to just simply sit there?
1383
01:37:34,376 --> 01:37:36,480
That makes you nervous.
1384
01:37:36,480 --> 01:37:41,251
Hunh! Hunh! Why shouldn't it make me
nervous!? It just seems ridiculous to me!
1385
01:37:41,850 --> 01:37:44,293
That's interesting, Wally.
1386
01:37:44,294 --> 01:37:48,764
I mean, you know, when I went to Ladakh in
western Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month,
1387
01:37:48,765 --> 01:37:51,483
well, there, you know, when people
come over in the evening for tea,
1388
01:37:51,484 --> 01:37:54,986
nobody says anything, unless there's
something to say, but there almost never is,
1389
01:37:54,987 --> 01:37:58,787
so they just sit there and drink their
tea, and it doesn't seem to bother them.
1390
01:37:58,788 --> 01:38:04,311
I mean, you see: the trouble, Wally,
with always being active and doing things,
1391
01:38:04,312 --> 01:38:07,234
is that I think it's quite
possible to do all sorts of things
1392
01:38:07,235 --> 01:38:10,435
and at the same time be
completely dead inside.
1393
01:38:10,436 --> 01:38:12,312
I mean, you're doing all these things,
1394
01:38:12,313 --> 01:38:15,441
but are you doing them because you
really feel an impulse to do them,
1395
01:38:15,442 --> 01:38:18,306
or are you doing them mechanically,
as we were saying before?
1396
01:38:18,307 --> 01:38:21,041
Because I really do believe that
if you're just living mechanically,
1397
01:38:21,042 --> 01:38:23,364
then you have to change your life.
1398
01:38:23,365 --> 01:38:27,778
When you're young, you go out on dates
all the time, you go dancing or something,
1399
01:38:27,779 --> 01:38:32,613
you're floating free, and then one day you
suddenly find yourself in a relationship,
1400
01:38:32,614 --> 01:38:35,037
and suddenly everything freezes.
1401
01:38:35,038 --> 01:38:37,450
And this can be true
in your work as well.
1402
01:38:37,451 --> 01:38:42,814
I mean, of course if you're really alive
inside, then of course there's no problem!
1403
01:38:42,815 --> 01:38:45,328
I mean, if you're living with
somebody in one little room
1404
01:38:45,329 --> 01:38:48,303
and there's a life going on between
you and the person you're living with,
1405
01:38:48,304 --> 01:38:51,941
well then a whole adventure can
be going on, right in that room.
1406
01:38:51,942 --> 01:38:56,071
But there's always the danger
that things can go dead;
1407
01:38:56,072 --> 01:38:59,970
then I really do think you have to
kind of become a hobo or something,
1408
01:38:59,971 --> 01:39:03,796
you know, like Kerouac, and go out
on the road. I really believe that.
1409
01:39:03,831 --> 01:39:08,259
I mean, you know, it's not that
wonderful to spend your life on the road,
1410
01:39:08,260 --> 01:39:12,432
and my own overwhelming preference
is to stay in that room if you can.
1411
01:39:12,433 --> 01:39:16,696
But you know, if you live with somebody for
a long time, people are constantly saying:
1412
01:39:16,697 --> 01:39:20,490
"Well! Of course it's not as great as
it used to be, but that's only natural,
1413
01:39:20,491 --> 01:39:23,785
the first blush of a romance goes,
now that's the way it has to be."
1414
01:39:23,786 --> 01:39:26,868
Now, I totally disagree with that.
1415
01:39:26,869 --> 01:39:31,663
But I do think that you have to constantly
ask yourself the question with total frankness:
1416
01:39:31,664 --> 01:39:36,215
Is your marriage still a marriage?
Is the sacramental element there?
1417
01:39:36,216 --> 01:39:40,761
Just as you have to ask about the sacramental
element in your work: is it still there?
1418
01:39:40,762 --> 01:39:45,213
It's a very frightening thing, Wally,
to have to suddenly realize that my God!
1419
01:39:45,214 --> 01:39:48,852
I thought I was living my life, but
in fact I haven't been a human being!
1420
01:39:48,853 --> 01:39:54,081
I've been a performer! I haven't been living,
I've been acting! I've acted the role of a father,
1421
01:39:54,082 --> 01:39:57,656
I've acted the role of the husband,
I've acted the role of the friend,
1422
01:39:57,657 --> 01:40:00,761
I've acted the role of the
writer, director, what have you.
1423
01:40:00,762 --> 01:40:04,826
I've lived in the same room with this
person but I haven't really seen them.
1424
01:40:04,827 --> 01:40:08,610
I haven't really heard them. I
haven't really been with them.
1425
01:40:08,611 --> 01:40:14,635
Yeah, I know. Some people are just
sometimes existing just side by side.
1426
01:40:14,636 --> 01:40:22,315
The other person's face could just turn into a
great wolf's face and it just wouldn't be noticed.
1427
01:40:22,316 --> 01:40:26,285
And it wouldn't be noticed,
no. It wouldn't be noticed.
1428
01:40:26,286 --> 01:40:28,903
I mean, when I was in
Israel a little while ago?
1429
01:40:28,904 --> 01:40:33,000
I have this picture of Chiquita that was
taken when she--I always carry it with me--
1430
01:40:33,001 --> 01:40:36,888
it was taken when she was about 26
or something and it's in summer and
1431
01:40:36,889 --> 01:40:41,605
she's stretched out on a terrace in this sort of
old-fashioned long skirt that's kind of pulled up
1432
01:40:41,606 --> 01:40:44,142
and she's slim and sensual and beautiful
1433
01:40:44,143 --> 01:40:48,651
and I've always looked at that picture and
just thought about just how sexy she looks.
1434
01:40:48,652 --> 01:40:50,842
And then last year in Israel,
I looked at the picture?
1435
01:40:50,843 --> 01:40:55,682
And I realized that that face in the
picture was the saddest face in the world.
1436
01:40:55,683 --> 01:41:00,648
That girl at that time was
just lost, so sad and so alone.
1437
01:41:00,649 --> 01:41:04,573
You know, I've been carrying this picture
for years and not ever really seen what it is,
1438
01:41:04,574 --> 01:41:07,661
I just never really
looked at the picture.
1439
01:41:09,085 --> 01:41:14,151
And then at a certain point I realized I had
just gone for a good 18 years unable to feel,
1440
01:41:14,152 --> 01:41:16,746
except in the most extreme situations.
1441
01:41:16,747 --> 01:41:20,922
to some extent I still had the ability to live
in my work; that was why I was such a work junkie,
1442
01:41:20,923 --> 01:41:24,719
that was why I felt every play I did
was a matter of my life or my death.
1443
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:29,665
But in my real life, I
was dead. I was a robot.
1444
01:41:29,666 --> 01:41:33,825
You know, I didn't even allow
myself to get angry, or annoyed.
1445
01:41:33,826 --> 01:41:38,172
Today, Chiquita, Nicholas,
Marina, all day long, as people do,
1446
01:41:38,173 --> 01:41:41,965
they do things that annoy me and they say
things that annoy me, and today I get annoyed;
1447
01:41:41,966 --> 01:41:45,866
and they say "Why are you annoyed?" and
I say "Because you're annoying!" you know.
1448
01:41:47,078 --> 01:41:52,109
And when I allowed myself to consider the possibility
of not spending the rest of my life with Chiquita,
1449
01:41:52,110 --> 01:41:55,998
I realized that what I wanted most
in life was to always be with her.
1450
01:41:55,999 --> 01:41:59,662
But at that time I hadn't
learned what it would be like
1451
01:41:59,663 --> 01:42:02,388
to let yourself react
to another human being.
1452
01:42:02,389 --> 01:42:08,151
And if you can't react to another person then
there's no possibility of action or interaction.
1453
01:42:08,152 --> 01:42:13,281
And if there isn't, I don't really
know what the word "love" means,
1454
01:42:13,282 --> 01:42:19,343
except "duty," "obligation,"
"sentimentality," "fear."
1455
01:42:24,109 --> 01:42:26,318
I don't know about you, Wally, but I
1456
01:42:26,318 --> 01:42:30,332
just had to put myself into a kind of training
program to learn how to be a human being.
1457
01:42:30,333 --> 01:42:32,798
I mean, how did I feel about
anything? I didn't know.
1458
01:42:32,799 --> 01:42:36,681
What kind of things did I like, what kind of
people did I really want to be with, you know?
1459
01:42:36,682 --> 01:42:41,463
And the only way I could think of to find
out was to just cut out all the noise,
1460
01:42:41,464 --> 01:42:46,287
and stop performing all the time and
just listen to what was inside me.
1461
01:42:46,288 --> 01:42:49,741
See, I think a time comes
when you need to do that.
1462
01:42:49,742 --> 01:42:53,844
Now, maybe in order to do it
you have to go to the Sahara,
1463
01:42:53,845 --> 01:42:58,205
and maybe you can do it at home,
but you need to cut out the noise.
1464
01:43:01,697 --> 01:43:04,020
Yeah. Of course, personally I just--
1465
01:43:04,021 --> 01:43:09,401
I usually don't like those quiet
moments, you know, I really don't.
1466
01:43:09,402 --> 01:43:15,326
I mean, I don't know if it's
that Freudian thing or what, but--
1467
01:43:15,327 --> 01:43:18,621
you know, the fear of unconscious
impulses or my own aggression or whatever--
1468
01:43:18,622 --> 01:43:25,245
but if things get too quiet and I find
myself just sitting there, you know,
1469
01:43:25,246 --> 01:43:30,265
as we were saying before, I mean, whether
I'm by myself or I'm with someone else,
1470
01:43:30,266 --> 01:43:38,076
I just, I just have this feeling
of: "My God! I'm gonna be revealed!"
1471
01:43:38,077 --> 01:43:41,433
In other words I'm adequate
to do any sort of a task,
1472
01:43:41,434 --> 01:43:46,942
but I'm not adequate
just to be a human being.
1473
01:43:46,943 --> 01:43:52,123
I mean, in other words I'm not--if I'm just
trapped there and I'm not allowed to do things
1474
01:43:52,124 --> 01:43:57,292
but all I can do is just be
there, well, I'll just fail.
1475
01:43:57,293 --> 01:44:02,216
I mean, in other words, I can
pass any other sort of a test,
1476
01:44:02,217 --> 01:44:06,165
and I, you know, I can even get an
A, if I put in the required effort.
1477
01:44:06,166 --> 01:44:11,528
But I just don't have a
clue how to pass this test.
1478
01:44:11,529 --> 01:44:19,902
Of course I realize this isn't a test, but I
see it as a test and I feel I'm gonna fail it,
1479
01:44:19,903 --> 01:44:26,089
I mean, it's very scary. I just
feel, just totally at sea. I mean...
1480
01:44:26,090 --> 01:44:28,884
Well, you know, I could
imagine a life, Wally,
1481
01:44:28,885 --> 01:44:33,363
in which each day would become an
incredible monumental creative task.
1482
01:44:33,364 --> 01:44:35,451
And we're not necessarily up to it!
1483
01:44:35,452 --> 01:44:39,708
I mean, if you felt like walking out on
the person you live with, you'd walk out.
1484
01:44:39,709 --> 01:44:41,539
Then if you felt like
it, you'd come back,
1485
01:44:41,540 --> 01:44:44,925
but meanwhile the other person would
have reacted to your walking out.
1486
01:44:44,926 --> 01:44:47,751
It would be a life of such feeling!
1487
01:44:47,752 --> 01:44:51,273
I mean, what was amazing
in the workshops I led was
1488
01:44:51,274 --> 01:44:56,991
how quickly people seem to fall into
enthusiasm, celebration, joy, wonder, abandon,
1489
01:44:56,992 --> 01:45:01,280
wildness, tenderness! Could
we stand to live like that?
1490
01:45:01,281 --> 01:45:06,351
Yeah, I think it's that moment of contact with
another person. I mean that's what scares us.
1491
01:45:06,352 --> 01:45:09,856
That moment of being face
to face with another person.
1492
01:45:09,857 --> 01:45:13,717
I mean, now, you wouldn't think
it would be so frightening.
1493
01:45:13,718 --> 01:45:16,516
It's strange that we
find it so frightening!
1494
01:45:16,517 --> 01:45:17,517
Well, it isn't that strange.
1495
01:45:17,518 --> 01:45:21,669
I mean, first of all, there are some
pretty good reasons for being frightened.
1496
01:45:21,670 --> 01:45:25,746
I mean, you know, a human being is
a complex and dangerous creature.
1497
01:45:25,747 --> 01:45:30,323
I mean, really if you start living each
moment, Christ, that's quite a challenge!
1498
01:45:30,324 --> 01:45:34,224
I mean, if you really reach out, and you're
really in touch with the other person?
1499
01:45:34,225 --> 01:45:37,733
Well, that really is something to
strive for, I think; I really do.
1500
01:45:37,734 --> 01:45:40,726
Yeah, it's just so pathetic
if one doesn't do that.
1501
01:45:40,727 --> 01:45:45,159
Of course there's a problem, because the closer
you come, I think, to another human being,
1502
01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:50,243
the more completely mysterious and
unreachable that person becomes.
1503
01:45:50,244 --> 01:45:53,668
I mean, you know, you have to reach out
and you have to go back and forth with them,
1504
01:45:53,669 --> 01:45:58,098
and you have to relate, and yet you're
relating to a ghost or something.
1505
01:45:58,099 --> 01:46:03,379
I don't know, because we're
ghosts, we're phantoms. Who are we?
1506
01:46:03,380 --> 01:46:07,184
And that's to face--to confront the
fact that you're completely alone,
1507
01:46:07,185 --> 01:46:09,945
and to accept that you're
alone is to accept death.
1508
01:46:09,946 --> 01:46:13,510
You mean, because somehow when you
are alone, you're alone with death,
1509
01:46:13,511 --> 01:46:17,154
I mean, nothing's obstructing your
view of it, or something like that.
1510
01:46:17,154 --> 01:46:17,984
Right.
1511
01:46:17,985 --> 01:46:21,270
You know, if I understood
it correctly, I think
1512
01:46:21,271 --> 01:46:26,929
Heidegger said that if you were to
experience your own being to the full
1513
01:46:26,930 --> 01:46:34,101
you'd be experiencing the decay of that being
toward death as a part of your experience.
1514
01:46:34,102 --> 01:46:39,114
You know, in the sexual act there's that moment
of complete forgetting, which is so incredible.
1515
01:46:39,115 --> 01:46:41,288
Then in the next moment you
start to think about things:
1516
01:46:41,289 --> 01:46:43,579
work on the play, what
you've got to do tomorrow.
1517
01:46:43,580 --> 01:46:46,902
I don't know if this is true of you,
but I think it must be quite common.
1518
01:46:46,903 --> 01:46:49,741
The world comes in quite fast.
1519
01:46:49,742 --> 01:46:53,595
Now that again may be because we're
afraid to stay in that place of forgetting,
1520
01:46:53,596 --> 01:46:55,644
because that again is close to death.
1521
01:46:55,645 --> 01:46:57,569
Like people who are
afraid to go to sleep.
1522
01:46:57,570 --> 01:47:02,504
In other words: you interrelate and you
don't know what the next moment will bring,
1523
01:47:02,505 --> 01:47:06,762
and to not know what the next moment will bring
brings you closer to a perception of death!
1524
01:47:06,763 --> 01:47:09,980
You see, that's why I think
that people have affairs.
1525
01:47:09,981 --> 01:47:12,653
Well, I mean, you know, in the
theater, if you get good reviews,
1526
01:47:12,654 --> 01:47:15,404
you feel for a moment that you've
got your hands on something!
1527
01:47:15,405 --> 01:47:19,846
You know what I mean? I mean it's a good
feeling! But then that feeling goes quite quickly.
1528
01:47:19,847 --> 01:47:24,654
And once again you don't know quite
what you should do next. What'll happen?
1529
01:47:24,655 --> 01:47:29,869
Well, have an affair and up to a certain point
you can really feel that you're on firm ground.
1530
01:47:29,870 --> 01:47:34,087
You know, there's a sexual conquest to
be made, there are different questions:
1531
01:47:34,088 --> 01:47:36,133
does she enjoy the ears being nibbled,
1532
01:47:36,134 --> 01:47:40,121
how intensely can you talk about Schopenhauer
in some elegant French restaurant.
1533
01:47:40,122 --> 01:47:45,628
Whatever nonsense it is. It's all, I think, to
give you the semblance that there's firm earth.
1534
01:47:45,629 --> 01:47:50,086
Well, have a real relationship with
a person that goes on for years,
1535
01:47:50,087 --> 01:47:52,916
that's completely unpredictable.
1536
01:47:52,917 --> 01:47:56,502
Then you've cut off all your ties to the
land and you're sailing into the unknown,
1537
01:47:56,503 --> 01:47:58,261
into uncharted seas.
1538
01:47:58,262 --> 01:48:05,420
People hold on to these images: father, mother,
husband, wife, again for the same reason:
1539
01:48:05,421 --> 01:48:08,438
'cause they seem to
provide some firm ground.
1540
01:48:09,272 --> 01:48:16,219
But there's no wife there. What does
that mean, a wife? A husband? A son?
1541
01:48:16,220 --> 01:48:22,646
A baby holds your hands and then suddenly
there's this huge man lifting you off the ground,
1542
01:48:22,647 --> 01:48:27,072
and then he's gone. Where's that son?
1543
01:48:45,191 --> 01:48:48,328
All the other customers
seemed to have left hours ago.
1544
01:48:49,891 --> 01:48:53,926
We got the bill, and
Andr� paid for our dinner!
1545
01:49:21,944 --> 01:49:27,990
I treated myself to a taxi. I
rode home through the city streets!
1546
01:49:29,499 --> 01:49:36,535
There wasn't a street--there wasn't a building--
that wasn't connected to some memory in my mind.
1547
01:49:36,994 --> 01:49:40,267
There I was buying a suit with my father.
1548
01:49:42,599 --> 01:49:46,366
There I was having an
ice-cream soda after school.
1549
01:49:49,909 --> 01:49:54,019
When I finally came in,
Debby was home from work.
1550
01:49:54,020 --> 01:49:57,608
And I told her everything
about my dinner with Andr�.
1551
01:49:58,436 --> 01:50:04,217
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