1 00:00:07,425 --> 00:00:10,762 I feel like something bad is gonna happen to me. 2 00:00:12,472 --> 00:00:14,725 I feel like something bad has happened. 3 00:00:15,893 --> 00:00:18,479 It hasn't reached me yet but it's on its way. 4 00:00:30,951 --> 00:00:32,912 I don't know why it's important... 5 00:00:32,995 --> 00:00:35,957 ...like, how it helps people to deal with loss... 6 00:00:36,041 --> 00:00:39,002 ...by making up stories about ghosts or whatever. 7 00:00:51,016 --> 00:00:52,309 Alice kept secrets. 8 00:00:53,519 --> 00:00:57,148 She kept the fact she kept secrets a secret. 9 00:01:06,783 --> 00:01:09,203 It's hard for some people to understand. 10 00:01:09,829 --> 00:01:11,747 You've to believe you're to blame... 11 00:01:11,831 --> 00:01:14,083 ...otherwise there's nothing to hold on to. 12 00:01:48,872 --> 00:01:50,040 Emergency services. 13 00:01:50,124 --> 00:01:52,752 My daughter Alice has gone. We need... 14 00:02:04,056 --> 00:02:08,102 She's been missing. Send someone up. 15 00:02:08,186 --> 00:02:10,480 I need you to talk to me for a second. 16 00:02:12,733 --> 00:02:13,942 Can you hear me? 17 00:02:24,788 --> 00:02:27,833 The normally tranquil setting of Ararat's novel dam... 18 00:02:27,916 --> 00:02:30,002 ...was shattered with the disappearance... 19 00:02:30,086 --> 00:02:31,712 ...of 1 6 year-old Alice Palmer... 20 00:02:31,754 --> 00:02:32,839 ...while picnicking. 21 00:02:32,922 --> 00:02:35,759 We received a call around 6 p.m. tonight... 22 00:02:35,842 --> 00:02:37,093 ...over a missing girl. 23 00:02:37,177 --> 00:02:39,680 Upon discovering the nature of the situation... 24 00:02:39,763 --> 00:02:42,182 ...we called in the search and rescue divers. 25 00:02:42,224 --> 00:02:44,727 Police divers entered the water around 1 0... 26 00:02:44,810 --> 00:02:47,438 ...with volunteers joining a fruitless search. 27 00:02:47,522 --> 00:02:50,483 They'd swum out to the middle of the dam. 28 00:02:51,193 --> 00:02:54,154 I could see them from where I was sitting... 29 00:02:54,238 --> 00:02:55,614 ...in the picnic area. 30 00:02:55,698 --> 00:02:57,867 I think I'd been in the water 1 5 min... 31 00:02:57,908 --> 00:03:01,538 ...and I said I'd get out because I was cold. 32 00:03:02,706 --> 00:03:06,084 So l started swimming back and she didn't come out with me... 33 00:03:06,168 --> 00:03:07,920 ...she said she'd stay there. 34 00:03:09,463 --> 00:03:11,048 l remember Matty got out. 35 00:03:13,426 --> 00:03:17,055 A few minutes later l heard him ask... 36 00:03:17,097 --> 00:03:18,432 ...where was Alice. 37 00:03:22,019 --> 00:03:26,733 So l stood up and looked out across the dam. 38 00:03:28,485 --> 00:03:30,320 The water was completely still. 39 00:03:31,738 --> 00:03:33,073 So I called out. 40 00:03:34,908 --> 00:03:37,411 I looked out over the water... 41 00:03:37,453 --> 00:03:39,247 ...to see if I could see her. 42 00:03:41,958 --> 00:03:45,003 And both the boys had kind of checked... 43 00:03:45,545 --> 00:03:49,049 ...you know, the bush land behind. 44 00:03:49,842 --> 00:03:53,346 l could see Alice's towel. She'd left it on the ground. 45 00:03:55,223 --> 00:03:57,642 She clearly hadn't gone out of the water... 46 00:03:57,726 --> 00:04:00,229 ...because she would've picked up her towel. 47 00:04:03,065 --> 00:04:06,402 That was the last time that l saw her. 48 00:04:27,843 --> 00:04:30,096 Police continue to hold their search... 49 00:04:30,137 --> 00:04:32,139 ...for 1 6 year-old Alice Palmer... 50 00:04:32,223 --> 00:04:35,143 ...who disappeared while picnicking with her family. 51 00:04:35,727 --> 00:04:37,479 We were told to go home. 52 00:04:41,275 --> 00:04:44,070 lf the search and rescue divers found anything... 53 00:04:44,111 --> 00:04:46,406 ...then they'd let us know immediately. 54 00:04:57,918 --> 00:05:00,713 It felt very strange in the car on the way home... 55 00:05:00,797 --> 00:05:02,882 ...because there was one empty seat. 56 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:05,427 One minute she was there and then... 57 00:05:07,513 --> 00:05:08,472 ...gone. 58 00:05:11,017 --> 00:05:13,811 I went back to stay with the Palmer's that night. 59 00:05:13,895 --> 00:05:17,107 We were just mostly waiting. Waiting for news... 60 00:05:19,151 --> 00:05:23,364 ...and for bad news. There was that expectation. 61 00:05:24,490 --> 00:05:27,410 We got a call from Russell on his mobile... 62 00:05:27,452 --> 00:05:29,329 ...at about 9 o'clock at night. 63 00:05:29,412 --> 00:05:33,417 He said there'd been an accident at the dam... 64 00:05:34,084 --> 00:05:37,964 ...and Alice had gone missing. So, we thought... 65 00:05:38,005 --> 00:05:40,425 ...we'd better go. 66 00:05:41,259 --> 00:05:44,638 l remember June was a bit funny... 67 00:05:44,721 --> 00:05:46,765 ...about seeing lris. 68 00:05:46,807 --> 00:05:49,602 There was a strange feeling between them. 69 00:05:50,895 --> 00:05:53,940 lt felt a little strange having my mother there. 70 00:05:55,316 --> 00:05:57,444 Mum, l and, therefore, Alice. 71 00:05:59,237 --> 00:06:02,199 It just didn't feel like the right order of things. 72 00:06:04,660 --> 00:06:06,454 It was an awful, awful night. 73 00:06:07,830 --> 00:06:09,416 Worse night of our lives. 74 00:06:14,630 --> 00:06:17,007 I went into Alice's room later that night. 75 00:06:17,091 --> 00:06:21,095 Her phone went off a couple of times... 76 00:06:21,179 --> 00:06:23,807 ...but I didn't answer it. 77 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:32,358 I remember the bed was made. 78 00:06:33,943 --> 00:06:36,780 I remember thinking how neat everything looked. 79 00:06:51,254 --> 00:06:54,466 I got a call from Alice's mum, June. 80 00:06:54,842 --> 00:06:58,137 She'd said that Alice was missing... 81 00:06:58,221 --> 00:07:00,640 ...and presumed that she drowned. 82 00:07:02,726 --> 00:07:04,352 l did not believe her... 83 00:07:04,436 --> 00:07:08,732 ...but, I don't know, it was hard to take... 84 00:07:08,816 --> 00:07:12,278 ...so I actually called Alice's mobile. 85 00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:13,821 l just... 86 00:07:16,491 --> 00:07:19,536 l wanted to see if it was a joke or something. 87 00:07:22,289 --> 00:07:23,582 A real shock. 88 00:07:25,459 --> 00:07:28,379 Just didn't really feel like it was real. 89 00:07:30,590 --> 00:07:32,634 Everything was the same as always... 90 00:07:32,718 --> 00:07:35,512 ...but people were saying that Alice had drowned. 91 00:07:35,846 --> 00:07:38,933 Are there memories from that night stand out for you? 92 00:07:41,394 --> 00:07:43,647 l remember we had the porch light on. 93 00:07:45,190 --> 00:07:47,317 We still do, actually, just in case. 94 00:07:49,153 --> 00:07:50,154 And why is that? 95 00:07:59,289 --> 00:08:01,417 Just in case she comes home, l guess. 96 00:08:30,241 --> 00:08:34,829 Divers located Alice's body at approximately 9:25 p.m. 97 00:08:35,497 --> 00:08:39,334 They used sonar to locate her. She drifted someway... 98 00:08:39,376 --> 00:08:41,295 ...and came to rest on a shelf... 99 00:08:41,378 --> 00:08:43,839 ...at the bottom of the storm water system. 100 00:08:45,007 --> 00:08:47,635 Obviously we contacted the family immediately. 101 00:08:48,928 --> 00:08:51,598 As soon as we were told they'd found the body... 102 00:08:51,681 --> 00:08:54,560 ...June and I went down to the dam. 103 00:08:55,477 --> 00:08:58,689 It was all very official and formal. 104 00:08:58,773 --> 00:09:01,818 They asked me to sign a statement of identification. 105 00:09:01,860 --> 00:09:03,486 June stayed in the car. 106 00:09:05,864 --> 00:09:08,367 On reflection, l think that was a mistake... 107 00:09:08,450 --> 00:09:10,703 ...because she didn't have any closure. 108 00:09:12,997 --> 00:09:17,127 I just couldn't bring myself to identify Alice's body. 109 00:09:18,086 --> 00:09:20,672 She'd been underwater all that time. 110 00:09:22,508 --> 00:09:24,051 l guess it's not how l... 111 00:09:25,469 --> 00:09:28,598 I didn't want to remember her that way. 112 00:09:29,432 --> 00:09:31,518 l thought it my responsibility... 113 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:34,980 ...as Allie's dad, you know? 114 00:09:37,483 --> 00:09:39,277 That's what a father does. 115 00:09:59,341 --> 00:10:01,885 The car stalled on the way back from the dam. 116 00:10:02,303 --> 00:10:04,889 The only gear I could get into was reverse. 117 00:10:05,598 --> 00:10:09,227 So we drove back to town in reverse... 118 00:10:10,061 --> 00:10:12,105 ...which was either that or walk... 119 00:10:12,189 --> 00:10:14,733 ...and given everything that had happened... 120 00:10:15,109 --> 00:10:17,653 ...it seemed like the better option, really. 121 00:10:29,124 --> 00:10:31,961 The autopsy was performed on the 27 th. 122 00:10:34,923 --> 00:10:37,342 Then the coroner released the body... 123 00:10:37,425 --> 00:10:40,429 ...on Tuesday the 28th. 124 00:10:43,849 --> 00:10:45,560 It was very strange... 125 00:10:45,893 --> 00:10:48,730 ...spending Christmas day with the family there... 126 00:10:48,772 --> 00:10:51,233 ...while Alice lay alone in the morgue. 127 00:11:01,828 --> 00:11:04,915 I don't know, it was like I hadn't seen her for a week. 128 00:11:06,375 --> 00:11:08,252 lt didn't feel real. 129 00:11:13,758 --> 00:11:15,802 Death takes everything, eventually. 130 00:11:16,553 --> 00:11:18,972 It's the meanest, dumbest machine there is. 131 00:11:19,056 --> 00:11:21,141 It keeps coming and it doesn't care. 132 00:11:23,644 --> 00:11:26,272 There's nothing else to know about it, really. 133 00:11:29,109 --> 00:11:31,069 It was a somber day for the family... 134 00:11:31,153 --> 00:11:33,864 ...and friends of Alice Palmer who gathered to pay... 135 00:11:33,947 --> 00:11:36,909 ...their final respects to a young woman taken too soon. 136 00:11:37,284 --> 00:11:39,579 She was a great person. Very popular... 137 00:11:40,121 --> 00:11:41,414 ...clever, lovely. 138 00:11:43,959 --> 00:11:46,753 Alice is remembered as a happy, fun-loving girl... 139 00:11:46,795 --> 00:11:49,757 ...with a zest for life. Described as always... 140 00:11:49,799 --> 00:11:53,094 The Palmer's were really doing tough at the time. 141 00:11:55,013 --> 00:11:57,390 l think about how bad it was back then... 142 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,395 ...it was hard to imagine how worse it would get. 143 00:12:14,952 --> 00:12:19,207 1 0 days after Allie's funeral, the 1 5th of January... 144 00:12:19,290 --> 00:12:21,835 ...stuff started happening around the house. 145 00:12:22,877 --> 00:12:24,129 Noises on the roof. 146 00:12:26,882 --> 00:12:29,844 Sounds coming outside the windows... 147 00:12:29,927 --> 00:12:32,722 ...and other movements that seemed to come... 148 00:12:32,805 --> 00:12:34,349 ...from Allie's old room. 149 00:12:35,725 --> 00:12:38,645 So we rehung the door... 150 00:12:39,229 --> 00:12:42,024 ...to Allie's room and we got a pest controller... 151 00:12:42,107 --> 00:12:44,235 ...to come in and check for termites. 152 00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:47,488 It didn't help at all. Doors kept slamming... 153 00:12:47,572 --> 00:12:50,408 ...and we still kept getting noises from her room. 154 00:12:53,412 --> 00:12:56,123 There was just something weird about that house. 155 00:12:56,207 --> 00:12:59,001 It had a fairly strange feeling about it... 156 00:12:59,085 --> 00:13:02,922 ...I can't explain to you what it was exactly. 157 00:13:03,673 --> 00:13:06,510 You'd go in there and have this bad feeling... 158 00:13:06,593 --> 00:13:07,970 ...in your gut. 159 00:13:17,397 --> 00:13:19,566 I started having these nightmares... 160 00:13:20,484 --> 00:13:24,113 ...and they were so distressing... 161 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:26,783 ...that sometimes I wouldn't want... 162 00:13:28,117 --> 00:13:29,452 ...to open my eyes. 163 00:13:29,828 --> 00:13:32,497 l'd woken up but l didn't want to open my eyes. 164 00:13:34,416 --> 00:13:37,294 There was one particular one. It was quite vivid... 165 00:13:38,087 --> 00:13:41,257 ...and recurring. Alice would come down the hall... 166 00:13:41,841 --> 00:13:43,885 ...still dripping from the dam... 167 00:13:44,386 --> 00:13:47,389 ...and just stand at the foot of our bed... 168 00:13:47,473 --> 00:13:52,145 ...staring at us. It was quite terrifying. 169 00:13:52,228 --> 00:13:54,731 As I said, I didn't want to open my eyes. 170 00:13:59,152 --> 00:14:00,571 By early February... 171 00:14:00,654 --> 00:14:03,157 ...my nightmares were getting so bad that... 172 00:14:03,616 --> 00:14:05,785 ...I began to go for walks at night... 173 00:14:06,452 --> 00:14:08,371 ...sometimes for hours at a time. 174 00:14:08,455 --> 00:14:10,999 Just so that I didn't have to go to bed... 175 00:14:11,082 --> 00:14:13,252 ...close my eyes and go to sleep. 176 00:14:17,256 --> 00:14:20,301 Sometimes, I'd actually go into people's houses. 177 00:14:21,177 --> 00:14:23,847 I didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong. 178 00:14:24,973 --> 00:14:29,854 l guess l really wanted to be in someone else's life. 179 00:14:41,575 --> 00:14:43,786 Do you remember how Russell was doing? 180 00:14:44,662 --> 00:14:48,124 Yeah, Russell was working a lot. 181 00:14:48,625 --> 00:14:51,253 At that point, I think it might've helped him... 182 00:14:51,336 --> 00:14:52,504 ...with his grief. 183 00:14:55,466 --> 00:14:59,929 Russell and I met on a project in '98. 184 00:15:00,513 --> 00:15:02,015 We worked together. 185 00:15:02,515 --> 00:15:04,476 You've known each other for years? 186 00:15:04,559 --> 00:15:05,936 Yeah, a good few years. 187 00:15:08,522 --> 00:15:11,192 Do you remember him after Alice's death? 188 00:15:11,275 --> 00:15:14,112 -What changed? -It was work as normal. 189 00:15:16,239 --> 00:15:19,868 It was troubling, I didn't know what to say. 190 00:15:21,704 --> 00:15:23,330 Did you notice a breakdown? 191 00:15:23,372 --> 00:15:26,334 Not really. Everyone grieves in their own way. 192 00:15:27,544 --> 00:15:31,089 lt wasn't really my place to tell him how to feel... 193 00:15:32,382 --> 00:15:35,010 ...but l certainly was concerned. 194 00:15:37,304 --> 00:15:40,141 I was really grateful that I had my work. 195 00:15:40,767 --> 00:15:43,436 l felt really guilty about that at the time... 196 00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:47,232 ...but l just wanted to get on with it. 197 00:15:52,822 --> 00:15:56,326 One night in late February, I came home from work... 198 00:15:56,368 --> 00:15:58,495 ...and I was sitting in the kitchen. 199 00:15:59,454 --> 00:16:02,166 I heard a noise coming from Allie's room. 200 00:16:03,959 --> 00:16:08,298 So I went into Allie's room. I don't really know why... 201 00:16:08,381 --> 00:16:12,427 ...but l found myself sitting down on the chair... 202 00:16:12,511 --> 00:16:14,179 ...in front of the dresser. 203 00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:18,017 Before l could work out what l was doing... 204 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:19,811 ...Allie walked in. 205 00:16:20,186 --> 00:16:23,773 She went over to her desk, sharpened a pencil... 206 00:16:23,857 --> 00:16:26,819 ...and looked like she was checking... 207 00:16:28,028 --> 00:16:30,030 ...for text messages on her phone. 208 00:16:31,782 --> 00:16:33,576 l was completely freaked out. 209 00:16:35,245 --> 00:16:39,041 She was completely oblivious to my presence. 210 00:16:40,751 --> 00:16:42,545 l don't know what happened... 211 00:16:43,379 --> 00:16:46,257 ...l must've moved the bed or squeaked my shoes... 212 00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:48,718 ...but she went completely rigid. 213 00:16:50,303 --> 00:16:54,683 l knew then that she knew that l was there. 214 00:16:55,809 --> 00:16:59,188 She slowly turned around, looked me right in the eye... 215 00:17:00,565 --> 00:17:03,777 ...fully for what felt like forever... 216 00:17:04,569 --> 00:17:06,738 ...and then she just came at me. 217 00:17:07,698 --> 00:17:10,076 Stood up and said: ''Get out! Get out!'' 218 00:17:10,493 --> 00:17:14,163 l got up and ran out as fast as l could. 219 00:17:15,915 --> 00:17:19,378 l could hear Russell crying. He was here in the kitchen... 220 00:17:19,419 --> 00:17:21,463 ...Mathew and l found him in here. 221 00:17:22,047 --> 00:17:23,382 He was sobbing. 222 00:17:23,424 --> 00:17:25,593 He was absolutely inconsolable. 223 00:17:26,427 --> 00:17:29,389 Did you believe Russell when he said he saw a ghost? 224 00:17:29,806 --> 00:17:32,976 Yeah, l do. l believe he saw what he saw. 225 00:17:35,896 --> 00:17:38,524 He's not the kind of man to make something up. 226 00:17:39,108 --> 00:17:40,985 So, l believe he saw something. 227 00:17:42,737 --> 00:17:46,575 Whether it's a real ghost or not, l don't really know... 228 00:17:47,534 --> 00:17:49,453 ...but l'm sure he saw something. 229 00:18:07,432 --> 00:18:09,976 I remember trying to talk to members... 230 00:18:10,477 --> 00:18:13,438 ...of the church about how to help June... 231 00:18:13,522 --> 00:18:15,399 ...and how to help the Palmers. 232 00:18:15,816 --> 00:18:19,946 There didn't seem to be anything we could do. 233 00:18:20,822 --> 00:18:22,866 I think part of the reason was... 234 00:18:23,241 --> 00:18:25,494 ...because they weren't church-goers... 235 00:18:26,078 --> 00:18:28,664 ...and didn't know how to offer them comfort. 236 00:18:31,042 --> 00:18:33,378 I don't even know what June believes in. 237 00:18:35,088 --> 00:18:37,799 l found myself mostly concerned about Mathew. 238 00:18:39,509 --> 00:18:42,263 I guess because those two were always so close. 239 00:18:42,805 --> 00:18:45,308 I was worried how he would cope. 240 00:18:53,275 --> 00:18:56,237 I remember he was spending more time alone. 241 00:18:58,781 --> 00:19:00,491 We were worried about him. 242 00:19:04,204 --> 00:19:08,500 Mathew came in with some unusual bruises on his body. 243 00:19:08,584 --> 00:19:11,838 Unusual in terms of distribution and depth. 244 00:19:13,881 --> 00:19:17,719 We obviously took a history trying to exclude trauma... 245 00:19:17,761 --> 00:19:21,473 ...but there was no history he was able to give us. 246 00:19:22,016 --> 00:19:25,937 We tested him for vasculitis, excluded poisoning... 247 00:19:25,978 --> 00:19:27,772 ...or toxins in his system. 248 00:19:28,523 --> 00:19:31,234 We were unable to turn up anything conclusive... 249 00:19:31,318 --> 00:19:34,905 ...and several weeks after the bruises... 250 00:19:34,989 --> 00:19:39,243 ...resolved spontaneously, we were never really able... 251 00:19:39,327 --> 00:19:41,412 ...to establish a cause for them. 252 00:19:44,332 --> 00:19:47,294 My name is Steve Wilkie. I'm Mathew's best friend. 253 00:19:47,836 --> 00:19:51,716 l usually stay at Mathew's two or three times a week. 254 00:19:54,928 --> 00:19:57,305 We started a band together. 255 00:19:58,557 --> 00:20:00,893 We normally play music at my house. 256 00:20:02,061 --> 00:20:04,188 Mathew seems to be quieter... 257 00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:06,607 ...but he was always very quiet. 258 00:20:07,650 --> 00:20:10,487 I guess there weren't warning bells going off. 259 00:20:11,655 --> 00:20:15,117 I'd heard about June going into people's houses... 260 00:20:15,576 --> 00:20:18,579 ...and Mathew never wanted to talk about any of that. 261 00:20:18,621 --> 00:20:20,623 l never asked him about any of it. 262 00:20:26,088 --> 00:20:29,008 I know that he was always interested in photography. 263 00:20:29,091 --> 00:20:33,096 At this time he was starting to pursue it... 264 00:20:33,179 --> 00:20:34,722 ...with more passion. 265 00:20:38,977 --> 00:20:43,649 Mathew was very keen to learn about photography... 266 00:20:43,733 --> 00:20:46,778 ...so I was more than willing to help out. 267 00:20:46,861 --> 00:20:48,112 That's what I do. 268 00:20:48,696 --> 00:20:51,032 He was picking my brains about anything... 269 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:54,244 ...from equipment, to techniques, lighting. 270 00:20:55,955 --> 00:20:58,958 He was a great learner and employee. 271 00:21:25,196 --> 00:21:27,198 Mathew, can you talk to me about... 272 00:21:27,282 --> 00:21:29,451 ...the photographs of the backyard... 273 00:21:29,534 --> 00:21:31,286 ...that you've been taking? 274 00:21:32,245 --> 00:21:35,499 Yeah, basically l've taken that same photo... 275 00:21:36,667 --> 00:21:39,253 ...with that composition every three months... 276 00:21:39,337 --> 00:21:40,964 ...for the past four years. 277 00:21:41,047 --> 00:21:43,675 It's just a photograph of the backyard... 278 00:21:43,758 --> 00:21:46,261 ...looking out, you can see the hills. 279 00:21:46,637 --> 00:21:49,557 It's like a little project that I set up... 280 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,475 ...for myself when we got here. 281 00:21:51,976 --> 00:21:55,397 What was in the April 28th photo that was different? 282 00:21:57,023 --> 00:22:00,986 Well, it was basically the same shot... 283 00:22:01,445 --> 00:22:04,448 ...but it would appear... 284 00:22:04,949 --> 00:22:08,620 ...that Alice is standing against the fence. 285 00:22:17,004 --> 00:22:19,632 Remember what the reaction was at the house? 286 00:22:20,592 --> 00:22:22,594 I wouldn't say the mood was good... 287 00:22:22,677 --> 00:22:25,305 ...but it was better than before. 288 00:22:26,181 --> 00:22:31,103 lt was like it gave us something to focus on. 289 00:22:31,646 --> 00:22:32,605 All of this. 290 00:22:36,818 --> 00:22:39,571 The photographs were taken on the 3rd of April... 291 00:22:39,655 --> 00:22:42,366 ...they were developed on the fourth... 292 00:22:42,449 --> 00:22:45,119 ...l looked at them on the fifth... 293 00:22:45,661 --> 00:22:49,165 ...and looked at the dams and water levels. 294 00:22:49,249 --> 00:22:52,127 l was quite happy but the following night... 295 00:22:52,169 --> 00:22:54,254 ...it was pointed out to me by my wife... 296 00:22:54,338 --> 00:22:56,757 ...that there was something in the background. 297 00:22:56,841 --> 00:22:58,175 This image came up. 298 00:23:11,858 --> 00:23:14,110 When I first looked at the photograph... 299 00:23:14,193 --> 00:23:16,237 ...I didn't know what to make of it. 300 00:23:16,321 --> 00:23:19,825 The image was quite unsettling because it certainly... 301 00:23:20,951 --> 00:23:22,703 ...looked like Alice. 302 00:23:23,746 --> 00:23:27,000 It was an incredibly discomforting image. 303 00:23:31,755 --> 00:23:35,009 l became convinced that Alice was still alive. 304 00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:45,020 I didn't have any rational explanation... 305 00:23:45,062 --> 00:23:46,897 ...for who was in those photos. 306 00:23:48,065 --> 00:23:51,485 But l did notice something about Alice that June didn't. 307 00:23:52,195 --> 00:23:54,280 l'd seen Alice's body. 308 00:23:55,782 --> 00:23:58,034 l didn't think she was alive. 309 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,038 l knew she wasn't. 310 00:24:01,622 --> 00:24:05,001 l became convinced that Russell made a mistake. 311 00:24:06,043 --> 00:24:09,381 He himself said it didn't look like anybody anymore. 312 00:24:12,050 --> 00:24:14,762 June was so convinced that l'd made a mistake... 313 00:24:14,845 --> 00:24:17,515 ...that l actually started having doubts myself. 314 00:24:17,598 --> 00:24:19,267 l started to think maybe... 315 00:24:20,894 --> 00:24:24,147 ...l'd made up in my mind it was Alice's body... 316 00:24:24,231 --> 00:24:25,774 ...before l looked. 317 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,196 The circumstances were so compelling to me... 318 00:24:32,365 --> 00:24:34,117 ...that l decided it was her. 319 00:24:36,077 --> 00:24:38,330 More than 3 months after the funeral... 320 00:24:38,372 --> 00:24:40,541 ...of Ararat teenager Alice Palmer... 321 00:24:40,624 --> 00:24:43,169 ...her grieving parents formally requested... 322 00:24:43,210 --> 00:24:45,588 ...her body be exhumed from the cemetery. 323 00:24:45,671 --> 00:24:47,131 Has been some contention... 324 00:24:47,215 --> 00:24:49,634 ...from the Palmer family about the accuracy... 325 00:24:49,718 --> 00:24:51,970 ...of the original body identification. 326 00:24:52,054 --> 00:24:54,348 June and Russell Palmer were adamant... 327 00:24:54,390 --> 00:24:56,434 ...that DNA testing be carried out. 328 00:24:56,767 --> 00:24:59,395 They couldn't be sure the body they identified... 329 00:24:59,479 --> 00:25:00,563 ...was indeed Alice. 330 00:25:01,481 --> 00:25:03,900 Alice's body was exhumed in the presence... 331 00:25:03,984 --> 00:25:06,236 ...of the funeral director, Dr. Slatter. 332 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,323 There was a representative from the coroner's office. 333 00:25:09,698 --> 00:25:12,368 It was transported to Ararat's hospital... 334 00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:14,496 ...where they took DNA samples... 335 00:25:14,913 --> 00:25:17,916 ...and she stayed there till the results came back. 336 00:25:22,421 --> 00:25:24,715 A few days later, we received a copy... 337 00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:27,844 ...of the coroner's full preliminary report... 338 00:25:28,636 --> 00:25:31,682 ...and Alice's identity was confirmed... 339 00:25:31,723 --> 00:25:34,017 ...by the DNA sample. 340 00:25:36,353 --> 00:25:39,357 It was only after they'd confirmed... 341 00:25:39,399 --> 00:25:41,734 ...it was Alice's body that I realized... 342 00:25:41,818 --> 00:25:44,571 ...how much l'd invested in the possibility... 343 00:25:44,654 --> 00:25:46,406 ...of it not being her. 344 00:25:47,241 --> 00:25:49,285 l can't tell you how much l... 345 00:25:50,411 --> 00:25:53,247 ...wanted there to have been a terrible mistake... 346 00:25:53,289 --> 00:25:55,125 ...even if it had been mine. 347 00:25:56,251 --> 00:25:58,712 Really, really wanted there to have been... 348 00:25:58,754 --> 00:26:00,839 ...someone else's kid in that dam... 349 00:26:00,923 --> 00:26:04,886 ...runaway or murder victim. Anyone else's... 350 00:26:04,969 --> 00:26:08,306 ...as long as it wasn't my kid. As long as it wasn't Alice. 351 00:26:52,689 --> 00:26:54,733 Alice was reburied two days later... 352 00:26:54,817 --> 00:26:56,277 ...on the 7 th of June. 353 00:26:58,654 --> 00:27:00,323 But the question remained. 354 00:27:00,865 --> 00:27:03,743 Who or what was in those photos? 355 00:27:25,893 --> 00:27:28,062 I continued to hear things. 356 00:27:29,147 --> 00:27:31,525 -What did you hear? -l was hearing noises. 357 00:27:31,608 --> 00:27:34,778 They were relentless. l heard them in the hallway... 358 00:27:35,404 --> 00:27:38,658 ...so I thought I'd set up a camera to see... 359 00:27:38,741 --> 00:27:42,370 ...if I see anything. If I see something. 360 00:28:07,315 --> 00:28:11,194 The first night I looked back... 361 00:28:11,278 --> 00:28:13,572 ...and there was footage of a figure... 362 00:28:14,490 --> 00:28:19,454 ...moving from the room, across the hallway... 363 00:28:19,871 --> 00:28:21,372 ...to the front door. 364 00:28:32,719 --> 00:28:35,263 You're on Voice FM, two minutes past eight. 365 00:28:35,305 --> 00:28:37,599 I'm Helen Bath and we're taking calls... 366 00:28:37,641 --> 00:28:40,060 ...with psychic consultant Ray Kemeny. 367 00:28:40,477 --> 00:28:42,563 Next, we have Nigel on the line, Ray. 368 00:28:42,646 --> 00:28:45,274 Hi, Nigel, how are you? What can I do for you? 369 00:28:49,112 --> 00:28:51,364 It was around that time that I decided... 370 00:28:51,448 --> 00:28:53,826 ...to seek out the advice of Ray Kemeny. 371 00:28:54,535 --> 00:28:57,955 I had heard Ray on the radio over the years. 372 00:28:58,790 --> 00:29:00,708 Opinion was quite divided. 373 00:29:00,792 --> 00:29:02,836 Some thought he was the real deal... 374 00:29:02,919 --> 00:29:04,546 ...others were unconvinced. 375 00:29:04,629 --> 00:29:06,465 Next, we have Annie on the line. 376 00:29:06,548 --> 00:29:08,258 Hi, Annie, how are you? 377 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:11,012 Thanks for taking my call, Ray. 378 00:29:11,095 --> 00:29:13,097 My pleasure. What can l do for you? 379 00:29:13,473 --> 00:29:16,434 I just wanted a general reading. 380 00:29:18,061 --> 00:29:20,522 General? Not just medical? 381 00:29:20,981 --> 00:29:22,775 I'm Hungarian by birth. 382 00:29:22,817 --> 00:29:25,611 My parents came out here when I was quite young. 383 00:29:26,028 --> 00:29:28,323 I have a 1 5 year-old daughter who lives... 384 00:29:28,364 --> 00:29:30,367 ...with her mother in south Australia. 385 00:29:30,450 --> 00:29:32,619 My Christian name is actually Scholtz... 386 00:29:32,661 --> 00:29:34,163 ...but I changed it to Ray. 387 00:29:34,496 --> 00:29:37,416 I think it's a more trustworthy name for a psychic. 388 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:42,172 Australia's psychic of choice. 389 00:29:45,634 --> 00:29:48,220 Most of what I do is when I'm dealing... 390 00:29:48,304 --> 00:29:52,975 ...with the sick or dying, they're a third of my clients. 391 00:29:54,435 --> 00:29:57,981 lt allows them the possibility that death isn't the bitter end. 392 00:30:00,025 --> 00:30:01,527 lt's not the full stop... 393 00:30:01,568 --> 00:30:04,155 ...which is a consolation l'm happy to give them... 394 00:30:04,238 --> 00:30:06,824 ...considering the fact that what happens... 395 00:30:06,908 --> 00:30:09,077 ...after death is up for grabs anyway. 396 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,039 lt's somebody very close to you. 397 00:30:12,122 --> 00:30:14,249 Someone you haven't seen for a while. 398 00:30:15,334 --> 00:30:18,170 Someone who's going to come back to your life. 399 00:30:18,629 --> 00:30:21,132 Someone who'll be of great comfort to you. 400 00:30:23,468 --> 00:30:24,845 Anyone fits that bill? 401 00:30:25,846 --> 00:30:27,598 Yeah, I can think of someone. 402 00:30:28,015 --> 00:30:30,977 l won't lie to you, Annie, l can see obstacles here. 403 00:30:31,352 --> 00:30:34,230 I think that this person who's coming back to you... 404 00:30:34,314 --> 00:30:36,358 ...is going to make a great difference... 405 00:30:36,441 --> 00:30:38,443 ...and will be of great solace to you. 406 00:30:39,653 --> 00:30:40,821 Thank you. 407 00:30:42,281 --> 00:30:43,824 See you, Annie. 408 00:30:59,801 --> 00:31:02,011 Where I come from, when someone dies... 409 00:31:02,095 --> 00:31:04,431 ...they block out the mirrors in the house... 410 00:31:04,514 --> 00:31:07,351 ...to stop the dead from finding their way back. 411 00:31:08,227 --> 00:31:10,312 Things like that make a difference. 412 00:31:19,114 --> 00:31:20,824 Hello, l'm Ray. 413 00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:34,298 lt's okay to die, Annie. 414 00:31:36,467 --> 00:31:38,678 lt's just the start of something else. 415 00:31:42,891 --> 00:31:44,017 lt's all right. 416 00:31:50,232 --> 00:31:53,528 I liked Ray immediately. He wasn't what I expected. 417 00:31:53,569 --> 00:31:56,239 l don't know what l really expected... 418 00:31:56,323 --> 00:31:58,825 ...but there was nothing kind of spooky... 419 00:31:58,909 --> 00:32:00,327 ...or fake about him. 420 00:32:11,006 --> 00:32:12,799 Okay, ready? 421 00:32:16,637 --> 00:32:18,306 Want you to close your eyes. 422 00:32:18,389 --> 00:32:20,224 I usually videotape my sessions... 423 00:32:20,308 --> 00:32:23,186 ...so they can be reviewed by the clients... 424 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,189 ...especially when there's elements of trance... 425 00:32:26,273 --> 00:32:27,858 ...or hypnotism involved. 426 00:32:28,567 --> 00:32:30,945 I keep a copy for myself and one for them. 427 00:32:31,404 --> 00:32:33,197 Better to be safe than sorry. 428 00:32:33,281 --> 00:32:35,992 Okay, so you're standing outside your house. 429 00:32:37,410 --> 00:32:38,704 Tell me what you see. 430 00:32:44,251 --> 00:32:47,505 My house. It's a white house. 431 00:32:49,049 --> 00:32:51,051 I'm walking towards the front door. 432 00:32:52,010 --> 00:32:55,014 l want you to go inside the house. 433 00:32:55,055 --> 00:32:57,391 l want you to move slowly from the house. 434 00:32:57,475 --> 00:32:59,852 l want you to describe what you see... 435 00:33:01,771 --> 00:33:04,733 ...where you are, give me a guided tour. 436 00:33:16,913 --> 00:33:20,250 Okay, I'm walking down the hallway... 437 00:33:20,918 --> 00:33:22,670 ...towards Alice's room. 438 00:33:28,134 --> 00:33:29,094 What's there? 439 00:33:29,761 --> 00:33:33,557 I can see Alice's shoes outside her room. 440 00:33:36,352 --> 00:33:38,896 What does that mean for you, June? 441 00:33:42,609 --> 00:33:46,280 She always used to leave her sneakers out of her room. 442 00:33:49,033 --> 00:33:51,369 I want you to go inside her room now. 443 00:33:52,286 --> 00:33:55,039 Open the door and just move inside. 444 00:33:55,582 --> 00:33:59,670 Do you feel safe enough to go in to Alice's room? 445 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,550 -Okay. -Now open the door. 446 00:34:08,513 --> 00:34:10,849 I'm going inside her room. 447 00:34:25,240 --> 00:34:27,201 You can see something, can't you? 448 00:34:28,619 --> 00:34:30,579 Tell me what you see, June. 449 00:34:32,623 --> 00:34:33,625 She's... 450 00:34:36,127 --> 00:34:37,963 Alice is sitting... 451 00:34:38,505 --> 00:34:41,050 ...on the wicker chair at the end of her bed. 452 00:34:49,935 --> 00:34:51,937 She looks up. 453 00:34:57,068 --> 00:34:58,444 I first met Ray when... 454 00:34:58,486 --> 00:35:00,405 ...June brought him home for dinner... 455 00:35:00,446 --> 00:35:02,532 ...the night of her first consultation. 456 00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:06,036 l'm completely indifferent to psychics... 457 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,497 ...l don't have a position on them at all. 458 00:35:08,581 --> 00:35:11,709 l barely mind having him come to dinner... 459 00:35:11,792 --> 00:35:13,962 ...but I didn't want to upset June. 460 00:35:16,131 --> 00:35:18,091 He was a pleasant sort of a bloke. 461 00:35:18,133 --> 00:35:21,428 He wasn't spooky at all. I was on my best behavior. 462 00:35:22,429 --> 00:35:25,266 A few days later, maybe a week later... 463 00:35:25,308 --> 00:35:28,353 ...l suggested to the family that we hold a s�ance. 464 00:35:29,229 --> 00:35:32,149 June was really keen but l remember Russell just... 465 00:35:32,733 --> 00:35:34,193 ...flat out refused. 466 00:35:34,652 --> 00:35:37,196 l think Mathew finally talked his dad around. 467 00:35:37,279 --> 00:35:40,158 Mathew, how did you feel about having a s�ance? 468 00:35:43,203 --> 00:35:45,956 At the time l was actually quite interested... 469 00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:48,417 ...sort of curious. 470 00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:52,338 l don't think Dad was thrilled about the idea... 471 00:35:52,964 --> 00:35:56,927 ...but, yeah, l thought it would be interesting... 472 00:35:57,969 --> 00:36:00,097 ...and l suggested we filmed it. 473 00:36:00,139 --> 00:36:03,642 And I recorded this with a video camera... 474 00:36:03,726 --> 00:36:05,436 ...which is the PC9. 475 00:36:08,898 --> 00:36:11,443 l'm getting a strong presence in the room... 476 00:36:12,819 --> 00:36:13,946 ...in the house. 477 00:36:17,491 --> 00:36:20,286 I think we all thought the s�ance was a failure. 478 00:36:20,995 --> 00:36:24,040 Ray didn't really come up with anything... 479 00:36:24,124 --> 00:36:28,087 ...like any signs. So after about an hour... 480 00:36:28,128 --> 00:36:29,797 ...we called it quits. 481 00:36:30,464 --> 00:36:32,967 lt was not until the next day... 482 00:36:33,885 --> 00:36:37,222 ...that Mathew was reviewing the footage... 483 00:36:37,305 --> 00:36:40,184 ...that there was an image of Alice. 484 00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:42,686 Make your presence known to us. 485 00:37:03,543 --> 00:37:06,004 The new footage was completely different... 486 00:37:06,046 --> 00:37:07,756 ...to the hallway footage. 487 00:37:08,591 --> 00:37:11,594 For one, it was significantly more detailed... 488 00:37:11,677 --> 00:37:13,429 ...so it was less ambiguous. 489 00:37:14,764 --> 00:37:17,726 lt was impossible to dismiss it... 490 00:37:17,809 --> 00:37:21,563 ...as a coincidence of shadow play... 491 00:37:22,022 --> 00:37:23,482 ...or digital noise. 492 00:37:25,193 --> 00:37:29,239 There was something inexplicable in our house. 493 00:37:29,781 --> 00:37:31,450 That was beyond doubt. 494 00:37:34,703 --> 00:37:35,788 I was concerned. 495 00:37:37,206 --> 00:37:39,834 This was pretty unfamiliar territory for me... 496 00:37:41,503 --> 00:37:43,296 ...and that was terrifying. 497 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,070 Ray got Mathew to help him set up... 498 00:38:04,153 --> 00:38:06,614 ...three permanent cameras inside the house. 499 00:38:06,698 --> 00:38:11,161 Recording in time lapse configuration 24 hrs a day. 500 00:38:12,996 --> 00:38:15,624 There'd been a lot of speculation about Ray... 501 00:38:17,168 --> 00:38:18,836 ...what he was doing there. 502 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,923 When people don't know... 503 00:38:22,006 --> 00:38:24,676 ...it leads to a lot of talk. 504 00:38:25,552 --> 00:38:27,805 l had heard rumors throughout July... 505 00:38:27,846 --> 00:38:31,726 ...of video images reporting an apparition in the house. 506 00:38:32,894 --> 00:38:36,356 l was skeptical as to their legitimacy. 507 00:38:37,274 --> 00:38:38,817 And your view on Ray? 508 00:38:40,027 --> 00:38:41,654 Also very skeptical. 509 00:38:42,279 --> 00:38:44,699 l think they had me as a Rasputin figure... 510 00:38:44,782 --> 00:38:47,702 ...mesmerizing the Palmers, stealing their money... 511 00:38:47,744 --> 00:38:49,537 ...altering the photos of Alice. 512 00:38:49,621 --> 00:38:52,583 Happy birthday to you! 513 00:38:52,666 --> 00:38:54,752 Mathew in particular seemed to be... 514 00:38:54,835 --> 00:38:56,253 ...really struggling. 515 00:38:56,879 --> 00:38:59,924 Happy birthday, dear Mathew! 516 00:39:02,427 --> 00:39:05,222 I thought I might be able to help by being there. 517 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,438 That's it. My main motivation was professional. 518 00:39:12,522 --> 00:39:14,274 Something was happening... 519 00:39:14,357 --> 00:39:16,443 ...and l wanted to find out what it was. 520 00:40:12,214 --> 00:40:14,508 What was your reaction to these images? 521 00:40:16,302 --> 00:40:19,013 We were completely gob smacked by them. 522 00:40:21,099 --> 00:40:24,019 But before we had time to take in what they meant... 523 00:40:24,060 --> 00:40:25,896 ...the Withers video came out. 524 00:40:27,856 --> 00:40:29,316 -Is it good? -It's great. 525 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,403 -Can I have a look? -Yeah, be careful. 526 00:40:32,904 --> 00:40:34,948 Cathy and Doug were at the dam... 527 00:40:35,031 --> 00:40:37,909 ...on April 3rd, the same day... 528 00:40:37,951 --> 00:40:39,912 ...the Bob Smeet photo was taken. 529 00:40:39,953 --> 00:40:42,289 -Careful! -What do you think I'll do? 530 00:40:44,041 --> 00:40:45,585 Be careful. 531 00:40:47,462 --> 00:40:49,214 Take my hand, babe. 532 00:40:52,217 --> 00:40:54,178 lt was a couple of months later... 533 00:40:54,261 --> 00:40:55,763 ...at the end of July... 534 00:40:55,846 --> 00:41:00,059 ...when we were looking at our footage... 535 00:41:00,894 --> 00:41:03,980 ...that we'd shot at the dam and kind of crossed... 536 00:41:05,107 --> 00:41:07,192 There's a figure in the background... 537 00:41:07,234 --> 00:41:09,737 ...which we identified as Bob Smeet... 538 00:41:11,113 --> 00:41:15,118 ...which interested us because we thought: 539 00:41:15,201 --> 00:41:17,454 ''Oh, it was the same day he was there... 540 00:41:17,537 --> 00:41:20,833 ...when he captured the image people were talking about.'' 541 00:41:20,916 --> 00:41:24,170 Then we went through all our footage... 542 00:41:24,253 --> 00:41:26,965 ...to see if we'd captured the figure as well... 543 00:41:27,507 --> 00:41:28,425 ...and we did. 544 00:41:28,508 --> 00:41:30,719 To see if the camera saw what Bob saw. 545 00:41:31,803 --> 00:41:34,181 We did find a figure in the background... 546 00:41:34,974 --> 00:41:37,476 ...like the image that had been described... 547 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,272 ...in his picture. We looked more closely... 548 00:41:43,441 --> 00:41:46,695 l got in right on the computer... 549 00:41:47,029 --> 00:41:49,031 ...and from what could... 550 00:41:49,114 --> 00:41:51,242 ...have looked like a female figure... 551 00:41:51,284 --> 00:41:55,288 ...from a long way away, up close and tight... 552 00:41:55,372 --> 00:41:59,543 ...you could see it was neither female or Alice. 553 00:42:00,753 --> 00:42:02,087 It was Mathew. 554 00:42:04,757 --> 00:42:06,509 Do you guys believe in ghosts? 555 00:42:07,427 --> 00:42:09,054 No. No. 556 00:42:11,682 --> 00:42:13,058 This is where I was... 557 00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:15,311 ...when the Bob Smeet photo was taken. 558 00:42:15,394 --> 00:42:17,146 l was wearing Alice's jacket. 559 00:42:17,939 --> 00:42:20,525 l looked up and l saw a man on the hill... 560 00:42:20,608 --> 00:42:22,694 ...who turned out to be Bob Smeet... 561 00:42:22,777 --> 00:42:26,114 ...and l didn't want to be in the photo. 562 00:42:28,117 --> 00:42:30,953 So, l walked off through the bush... 563 00:42:31,329 --> 00:42:35,166 ...l didn't see there was also a couple filming... 564 00:42:35,792 --> 00:42:37,919 ...who turned out to be the Withers. 565 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,844 When this came out, Dad came to me... 566 00:42:44,927 --> 00:42:47,180 ...and asked me if I'd been involved... 567 00:42:47,263 --> 00:42:49,724 ...in anything else and I didn't want to lie. 568 00:42:49,808 --> 00:42:51,727 So, I told him. 569 00:43:00,570 --> 00:43:03,240 I told Dad I was responsible for the image... 570 00:43:03,281 --> 00:43:05,867 ...of Alice in the hallway and the bedroom... 571 00:43:06,451 --> 00:43:10,122 ...and that I created the April 28th photo... 572 00:43:10,623 --> 00:43:12,250 ...and the s�ance image. 573 00:43:12,959 --> 00:43:14,627 I told him what I'd done. 574 00:43:16,129 --> 00:43:17,255 I got two photos. 575 00:43:17,714 --> 00:43:19,758 A photo of Alice in the backyard... 576 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,095 ...and I composited the images. 577 00:43:23,137 --> 00:43:25,306 That's a photo l took of Alice. 578 00:43:25,389 --> 00:43:29,603 Mum kept talking about getting Alice exhumed... 579 00:43:29,686 --> 00:43:32,439 ...and she was keen on this idea... 580 00:43:32,522 --> 00:43:34,566 ...of identifying her body. 581 00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:37,361 So, l knew that without more evidence... 582 00:43:37,445 --> 00:43:40,490 ...it wasn't going to happen. l made the photograph. 583 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,206 I just used an old video of Alice... 584 00:43:49,333 --> 00:43:52,295 ...and I played that on the T. V. 585 00:43:52,962 --> 00:43:55,006 I had the T. V. up on the bookcase... 586 00:43:55,090 --> 00:43:57,717 ...it was as simple as rotating the mirror... 587 00:43:58,885 --> 00:44:01,472 ...so that the reflection of the T. V. came up. 588 00:44:01,555 --> 00:44:05,852 The mirror is quite small so I cropped out the edges... 589 00:44:06,936 --> 00:44:09,522 ...and I filmed that. Same with the kitchen... 590 00:44:09,606 --> 00:44:12,109 ...and the bedroom, what you see is Alice... 591 00:44:12,609 --> 00:44:15,321 ...on a television in a mirror. 592 00:44:24,873 --> 00:44:27,543 It wasn't about trying to trick people. 593 00:44:29,295 --> 00:44:31,839 I guess something was better than nothing. 594 00:44:32,715 --> 00:44:35,760 Do you think what you did made it worse for June? 595 00:44:43,519 --> 00:44:44,645 l think that... 596 00:44:46,439 --> 00:44:50,318 Yeah. Yeah, l probably did make it harder for her... 597 00:44:50,819 --> 00:44:53,322 ...but that wasn't my intention. 598 00:44:56,367 --> 00:45:01,331 l'm not quite so sure about his reasons. 599 00:45:02,457 --> 00:45:04,209 l don't know that l... 600 00:45:06,253 --> 00:45:07,546 ...totally... 601 00:45:11,592 --> 00:45:14,804 l don't want to say l don't believe what he said... 602 00:45:16,181 --> 00:45:20,310 ...I'm just not convinced that he really knows... 603 00:45:20,352 --> 00:45:21,770 ...why he did it. 604 00:45:27,443 --> 00:45:28,862 When it all came out... 605 00:45:28,987 --> 00:45:31,698 ...people wanted to do stories, books... 606 00:45:31,782 --> 00:45:35,160 ...women's magazines, the whole lot. 607 00:45:37,914 --> 00:45:40,667 We just didn't know how to handle it. 608 00:45:42,001 --> 00:45:44,755 We had to protect Matty, protect ourselves... 609 00:45:45,839 --> 00:45:47,508 ...protect Allie's memory. 610 00:45:47,591 --> 00:45:50,469 We just didn't have any experience... 611 00:45:50,511 --> 00:45:54,098 ...dealing with this interest in something so personal... 612 00:45:54,182 --> 00:45:56,685 ...that people are making incredibly public. 613 00:45:58,228 --> 00:46:01,190 The Palmers weren't coping well at all. 614 00:46:01,857 --> 00:46:05,194 Things were very bad. It was tough. 615 00:46:07,655 --> 00:46:10,534 This was like the end of hope for all of us... 616 00:46:11,284 --> 00:46:12,953 ...but especially for June. 617 00:46:14,580 --> 00:46:17,541 She just really wasn't ready to let Allie go. 618 00:46:21,379 --> 00:46:24,466 She needed to hang on to her a bit longer... 619 00:46:26,510 --> 00:46:28,888 ...and I don't think she would admit it... 620 00:46:29,513 --> 00:46:31,682 ...but she was devastated. 621 00:46:42,695 --> 00:46:44,238 She's an interesting girl. 622 00:46:44,322 --> 00:46:47,826 She seemed to not get on with June so well. 623 00:46:48,368 --> 00:46:50,203 l thought they're quite alike. 624 00:46:50,245 --> 00:46:53,582 lt's interesting how the two of them did not get on so well. 625 00:46:56,252 --> 00:46:59,005 They always seemed very much alike. 626 00:46:59,046 --> 00:47:03,093 You could see that Alice took a lot after June. 627 00:47:04,678 --> 00:47:09,016 Also, things got quite clear after Alice's death... 628 00:47:09,058 --> 00:47:12,812 ...perhaps a sense of deprivation... 629 00:47:13,563 --> 00:47:15,273 ...they shared. 630 00:47:16,191 --> 00:47:17,317 Thanks for that. 631 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,155 June was, still is... 632 00:47:22,573 --> 00:47:24,325 ...keeps to herself a lot... 633 00:47:24,408 --> 00:47:28,621 ...and it became clear that Alice did that too. 634 00:47:30,457 --> 00:47:34,253 The sense of privacy, the sense of their own life... 635 00:47:35,504 --> 00:47:39,384 ...that they'll choose to share or not. 636 00:47:45,057 --> 00:47:47,393 It's wonderful when your children come... 637 00:47:47,434 --> 00:47:49,937 ...and that new expression that you have... 638 00:47:51,314 --> 00:47:54,108 ...but as a mother you always have doubts... 639 00:47:55,652 --> 00:47:58,572 ...that you're not doing enough or the right thing. 640 00:48:00,949 --> 00:48:04,620 I can only blame myself. It comes from me. 641 00:48:05,413 --> 00:48:07,999 It came from my mother. 642 00:48:09,751 --> 00:48:11,670 I've never been able to... 643 00:48:14,548 --> 00:48:17,218 I've never been able to give myself wholly... 644 00:48:17,677 --> 00:48:20,430 ...to June. 645 00:48:22,766 --> 00:48:26,019 I feel June is a little like that too... 646 00:48:26,770 --> 00:48:30,232 ...that she couldn't give herself wholly to Alice. 647 00:48:38,408 --> 00:48:41,328 I hope Alice did know how much I loved her. 648 00:48:42,454 --> 00:48:45,541 I guess I held something back a little as she grew. 649 00:48:48,545 --> 00:48:50,422 That would be the saddest thing... 650 00:48:50,505 --> 00:48:52,341 ...to think she might not know. 651 00:49:01,810 --> 00:49:05,063 Ray suggested that Mathew accompany him... 652 00:49:05,105 --> 00:49:08,567 ...on one of his country Victorian tours. 653 00:49:09,068 --> 00:49:10,903 He was doing consultations... 654 00:49:11,654 --> 00:49:14,449 ...and Mathew jumped at the chance. 655 00:49:36,140 --> 00:49:39,102 I think I realized when I was away... 656 00:49:39,686 --> 00:49:41,354 ...how much I missed Alice. 657 00:49:42,272 --> 00:49:45,943 That I was never going to speak to her again. 658 00:49:47,653 --> 00:49:50,406 I guess that's something all of Ray's clients... 659 00:49:50,489 --> 00:49:52,283 ...are coming to terms with. 660 00:49:52,366 --> 00:49:56,746 They want to talk to someone or contact someone they lost. 661 00:49:56,788 --> 00:49:59,583 And so did I. 662 00:50:01,293 --> 00:50:05,381 I was one of Ray's clients in a way as well. 663 00:50:11,221 --> 00:50:12,681 -Is the shot at you? -No. 664 00:50:12,764 --> 00:50:15,226 -Let's see what happens. -What do you think? 665 00:50:15,309 --> 00:50:18,020 It's going to hit me and I'm going to get angry. 666 00:50:18,104 --> 00:50:19,647 That's what'll happen. No! 667 00:50:20,607 --> 00:50:21,733 Watch yourself. 668 00:50:22,609 --> 00:50:24,361 What are you doing in my room? 669 00:50:25,195 --> 00:50:26,363 I don't know. 670 00:50:51,057 --> 00:50:53,060 When me and Ray went on the tour... 671 00:50:53,143 --> 00:50:55,187 ...we left the two rented cameras... 672 00:50:55,271 --> 00:50:57,231 ...where they were in the hallway. 673 00:50:57,899 --> 00:51:01,110 I was sure there was still something in the house. 674 00:51:02,278 --> 00:51:04,948 Obviously because we were away for three days... 675 00:51:05,032 --> 00:51:07,743 ...we couldn't change the tapes or anything. 676 00:51:07,826 --> 00:51:10,830 We were probably going to get... 677 00:51:10,913 --> 00:51:13,124 ...about a day and a half of footage... 678 00:51:13,207 --> 00:51:14,918 ...but we left them running. 679 00:51:14,959 --> 00:51:18,964 We got back August 22nd. 680 00:51:19,381 --> 00:51:22,176 At which point, we checked the tapes. 681 00:51:47,329 --> 00:51:49,457 Only Russell and I were in the house... 682 00:51:49,498 --> 00:51:51,626 ...when these images were recorded. 683 00:51:51,667 --> 00:51:54,295 We couldn't have had anything to do with them. 684 00:51:56,673 --> 00:52:00,511 They proved there was a ghost in my house. 685 00:52:01,595 --> 00:52:02,638 Alice's ghost. 686 00:52:11,565 --> 00:52:13,108 Do you believe in ghosts? 687 00:52:14,985 --> 00:52:16,070 Didn't used to. 688 00:52:19,574 --> 00:52:22,577 lt's a hard thing to prove or disprove. 689 00:52:27,374 --> 00:52:28,334 l think... 690 00:52:30,378 --> 00:52:32,922 Yeah, sometimes l think maybe they do exist. 691 00:52:34,883 --> 00:52:39,096 There are ghosts everywhere. lt's a scary world. 692 00:52:40,514 --> 00:52:42,516 l don't know why it's important... 693 00:52:42,558 --> 00:52:45,311 ...like, how it helps people to deal with loss... 694 00:52:45,394 --> 00:52:48,398 ...by making up stories about ghosts or whatever. 695 00:52:53,570 --> 00:52:55,948 It's a real question mark over everything. 696 00:52:56,031 --> 00:52:58,493 I went back and reviewed all the footage... 697 00:52:58,534 --> 00:52:59,994 ...that had come before. 698 00:53:00,078 --> 00:53:02,455 All the material taken inside the house... 699 00:53:02,497 --> 00:53:04,166 ...following Alice's death. 700 00:53:10,089 --> 00:53:12,925 It was while I watched Mathew's June 1 3th... 701 00:53:13,009 --> 00:53:17,430 ...hallway material again, that I noticed something. 702 00:53:18,807 --> 00:53:21,936 There was a second figure, not Matthew in the hallway... 703 00:53:22,019 --> 00:53:24,522 ...but someone else, squatting in the dark... 704 00:53:24,605 --> 00:53:25,857 ...in Alice's room. 705 00:53:27,066 --> 00:53:29,069 At first I thought it was Alice... 706 00:53:30,779 --> 00:53:33,198 ...then I realized it was our neighbor. 707 00:53:34,074 --> 00:53:35,034 Brett Toohey. 708 00:53:43,501 --> 00:53:45,671 What was this man doing in my house... 709 00:53:46,421 --> 00:53:49,467 ...in my daughter's room, six months after her death? 710 00:53:57,058 --> 00:53:58,894 When I found Alice's safe... 711 00:53:58,977 --> 00:54:01,397 ...I realized exactly why he'd been there. 712 00:54:05,777 --> 00:54:07,529 He was looking for the tape. 713 00:54:10,866 --> 00:54:11,867 That's it. 714 00:54:44,236 --> 00:54:45,696 -Did you smoke? -Yeah. 715 00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,241 Getting nice and cozy with Alice. 716 00:54:49,034 --> 00:54:52,996 Alice began babysitting for the Tooheys in 2002... 717 00:54:53,038 --> 00:54:56,167 ...and she continued for the next two and a half years. 718 00:54:56,208 --> 00:54:59,671 The Tooheys boys were five and nine. 719 00:55:02,257 --> 00:55:06,845 I literally could just not believe my eyes. 720 00:55:11,642 --> 00:55:14,020 It just made me feel so sad. 721 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:21,904 As far as I'm concerned... 722 00:55:21,987 --> 00:55:24,699 ...the Tooheys were complicit in Allie's death. 723 00:55:24,740 --> 00:55:26,868 I believe if it hadn't been for them... 724 00:55:26,909 --> 00:55:28,703 ...she would've reached out to us. 725 00:55:28,787 --> 00:55:30,330 Wouldn't have felt guilty. 726 00:55:30,413 --> 00:55:32,749 She wouldn't have felt the burden of that. 727 00:55:34,376 --> 00:55:36,420 She wouldn't have been isolated. 728 00:55:40,133 --> 00:55:42,135 How do you feel towards Brett now? 729 00:55:43,595 --> 00:55:46,139 lf he was around the corner l'd throttle him. 730 00:55:47,558 --> 00:55:51,521 He seemed like a nice guy. He was nice. 731 00:55:52,939 --> 00:55:56,776 We'd speak. He was never mean. 732 00:55:57,861 --> 00:56:00,489 He had a pool at his place. 733 00:56:00,906 --> 00:56:02,741 We used to swim there sometimes. 734 00:56:02,825 --> 00:56:03,868 Yeah, in summer. 735 00:56:03,909 --> 00:56:06,287 You could go to his place and swim there. 736 00:56:07,872 --> 00:56:10,792 I was really bewildered about what happened. 737 00:56:11,752 --> 00:56:14,088 It took a lot to believe it. 738 00:56:14,129 --> 00:56:17,049 l had no idea that Alice would... 739 00:56:17,091 --> 00:56:19,010 Be with somebody. l know. 740 00:56:19,093 --> 00:56:20,803 A complete surprise. 741 00:56:20,887 --> 00:56:24,516 We never thought she'd do something like that. 742 00:56:28,854 --> 00:56:30,940 Why do you think Alice had the tape? 743 00:56:33,651 --> 00:56:35,528 She didn't want them to have it. 744 00:56:36,071 --> 00:56:37,030 Why is that? 745 00:56:37,113 --> 00:56:39,241 Didn't trust them anymore, l think. 746 00:56:41,368 --> 00:56:44,413 He must've been really desperate to get the tape. 747 00:56:45,206 --> 00:56:47,125 From the moment they'd heard... 748 00:56:47,208 --> 00:56:49,961 ...of Alice's death, they must've been living... 749 00:56:50,045 --> 00:56:52,297 ...in constant fear of being found out. 750 00:56:56,469 --> 00:56:58,304 l'm glad he couldn't find it. 751 00:56:58,721 --> 00:57:00,598 l'm glad he knows it's not over. 752 00:57:04,478 --> 00:57:07,648 Had a lot of dealings with the Palmers during this time... 753 00:57:07,731 --> 00:57:10,609 ...as part of the investigating team trying to locate... 754 00:57:10,651 --> 00:57:12,278 ...Brett and Marissa Toohey. 755 00:57:13,571 --> 00:57:15,907 Initially, we were optimistic... 756 00:57:16,366 --> 00:57:19,828 ...that they would be found and charges laid... 757 00:57:20,579 --> 00:57:24,542 ...but unfortunately, the case dried up... 758 00:57:25,084 --> 00:57:27,253 ...so investigation stalled. 759 00:57:28,379 --> 00:57:29,839 The police advised us... 760 00:57:29,923 --> 00:57:32,092 ...that even if the Tooheys were caught... 761 00:57:32,134 --> 00:57:34,345 ...they'd get off on a suspended sentence... 762 00:57:34,428 --> 00:57:36,388 ...by claiming the sex was consensual. 763 00:57:36,806 --> 00:57:40,727 A claim supported by the video. 764 00:57:41,186 --> 00:57:44,022 Did you know about Alice's involvement with Brett? 765 00:57:45,107 --> 00:57:47,818 No. No one did. 766 00:57:48,986 --> 00:57:50,905 Obviously l didn't. 767 00:57:52,323 --> 00:57:55,076 We wouldn't have gone out if l had any idea. No. 768 00:57:56,745 --> 00:58:00,374 l thought we were pretty good. 769 00:58:11,928 --> 00:58:14,515 It left so many unanswered questions. 770 00:58:15,975 --> 00:58:17,727 Why was she involved with him? 771 00:58:18,269 --> 00:58:20,104 When did the relationship begin? 772 00:58:21,105 --> 00:58:22,565 Was he in love with her?. 773 00:58:25,736 --> 00:58:26,945 I just don't know. 774 00:58:30,866 --> 00:58:33,244 The Tooheys sold their house and moved... 775 00:58:33,286 --> 00:58:35,121 ...six months after Alice died. 776 00:58:45,258 --> 00:58:46,551 Alice kept secrets. 777 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,431 She kept the fact she kept secrets a secret. 778 00:58:53,225 --> 00:58:55,728 lt does change the way you see somebody... 779 00:58:55,811 --> 00:58:59,649 ...when you realize they did hide things from you a bit. 780 00:59:01,443 --> 00:59:06,073 I think I knew one Alice, her mum knew another... 781 00:59:06,156 --> 00:59:09,410 ...and there was another one that none of us knew. 782 00:59:24,343 --> 00:59:27,639 I found Ray's business card taped to Alice's diary... 783 00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,767 ...on the page marked 1 2th July, 2005. 784 00:59:36,565 --> 00:59:38,442 Why'd you come to see me, Alice? 785 00:59:38,484 --> 00:59:40,612 Can you interpret dreams? 786 00:59:41,654 --> 00:59:42,781 Sometimes. 787 00:59:43,824 --> 00:59:46,326 How do you feel when you wake up from them? 788 00:59:51,249 --> 00:59:52,583 They scare me a bit. 789 00:59:52,667 --> 00:59:55,962 Alice came to see me 5 months before she died. 790 00:59:57,005 --> 00:59:59,341 She called me on the radio a few times... 791 00:59:59,424 --> 01:00:01,594 ...and then we made the appointment. 792 01:00:01,677 --> 01:00:03,763 Take a deep breath, close your eyes. 793 01:00:03,846 --> 01:00:06,307 Imagine you're standing outside your house. 794 01:00:06,349 --> 01:00:08,476 Tell me what you see. 795 01:00:17,111 --> 01:00:18,488 -Okay? -Yeah. 796 01:00:21,157 --> 01:00:23,410 I want you to go inside the front door. 797 01:00:24,411 --> 01:00:26,997 Go into the house. Tell me what you see... 798 01:00:27,081 --> 01:00:28,207 ...where you are. 799 01:00:28,290 --> 01:00:31,335 Ray, why didn't you tell June you'd met Alice before? 800 01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,049 It was not a case of hiding something. 801 01:00:36,132 --> 01:00:40,596 I was honoring Alice's request for confidentiality... 802 01:00:41,055 --> 01:00:44,016 ...but it was damned if you do, damned if you don't. 803 01:00:44,642 --> 01:00:48,271 The living room is straight ahead. 804 01:00:48,688 --> 01:00:50,315 Then you go to the right... 805 01:00:50,899 --> 01:00:53,694 ...and my room is in the back part of the house... 806 01:00:53,777 --> 01:00:55,696 ...as you go towards the kitchen. 807 01:00:56,697 --> 01:00:59,117 Do you see anything unusual or different? 808 01:01:03,079 --> 01:01:04,039 No. 809 01:01:04,706 --> 01:01:07,418 No, we didn't feel we could trust Ray anymore... 810 01:01:08,252 --> 01:01:10,504 ...for whatever reasons he may've had... 811 01:01:10,588 --> 01:01:12,965 ...of keeping that information to himself. 812 01:01:13,049 --> 01:01:14,843 lt still felt like a betrayal. 813 01:01:20,265 --> 01:01:22,351 I wanted to help June and the family. 814 01:01:22,434 --> 01:01:24,478 I think they wanted me to help them. 815 01:01:25,146 --> 01:01:27,982 I wouldn't have been able to do it had they known. 816 01:01:29,526 --> 01:01:31,319 There was a bit of resentment. 817 01:01:31,361 --> 01:01:33,322 Mathew wouldn't even speak to me. 818 01:01:34,073 --> 01:01:36,450 What l think hurt them more than anything... 819 01:01:36,534 --> 01:01:38,703 ...was what they saw as my failure... 820 01:01:38,786 --> 01:01:41,372 ...to see Alice's imminent passing. 821 01:01:42,332 --> 01:01:45,043 Looking back, it's kind of strange... 822 01:01:45,127 --> 01:01:50,007 ...that someone would be as close to us as he was. 823 01:01:52,552 --> 01:01:55,597 I think he needed us as much as we needed him. 824 01:02:08,862 --> 01:02:11,323 Alice came to see me because she was upset. 825 01:02:12,532 --> 01:02:15,202 She was a very troubled person. 826 01:02:17,705 --> 01:02:19,415 ''I had a dream last night. 827 01:02:19,499 --> 01:02:22,627 I was cold and wet. I felt heavy... 828 01:02:22,711 --> 01:02:24,463 ...like I'd been drugged. 829 01:02:24,546 --> 01:02:28,050 When I woke up, the sensations didn't go. 830 01:02:28,801 --> 01:02:31,554 I was feeling sick and confused... 831 01:02:31,888 --> 01:02:34,766 ...and I was starting to get scared. 832 01:02:36,268 --> 01:02:38,687 I needed to see Mum, to talk to her. 833 01:02:39,897 --> 01:02:43,025 I stumbled to her room and as I stood there... 834 01:02:43,067 --> 01:02:45,069 ...over the bed watching them... 835 01:02:45,111 --> 01:02:48,448 ...I was overcome with this intense sadness. 836 01:02:49,282 --> 01:02:51,368 Then the sadness turned to fear. 837 01:02:51,451 --> 01:02:53,954 l just stood there paralyzed with fear... 838 01:02:54,038 --> 01:02:57,833 ...and l saw there's nothing that they could do for me. 839 01:02:58,668 --> 01:03:01,004 l'd never felt so utterly alone. 840 01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,716 Everything felt wrong. My body... 841 01:03:06,969 --> 01:03:10,181 ...the way things looked, then l realized... 842 01:03:10,222 --> 01:03:12,433 ...there was something wrong with me. 843 01:03:14,727 --> 01:03:18,106 I started to cry, standing there at the bed. '' 844 01:03:49,934 --> 01:03:53,146 Lake Mungo is in Southwestern, New South Wales... 845 01:03:53,229 --> 01:03:56,024 ...and that was the location of the school camp... 846 01:03:56,107 --> 01:04:00,529 ...that Alice went on from August 2nd to 5th, 2005. 847 01:04:04,325 --> 01:04:05,618 When she came home... 848 01:04:05,701 --> 01:04:07,662 ...she said she'd had a good time. 849 01:04:07,745 --> 01:04:09,372 I particularly remember it. 850 01:04:09,414 --> 01:04:12,251 She came home without her mobile phone... 851 01:04:12,876 --> 01:04:15,462 ...which we'd bought her a month previously... 852 01:04:15,546 --> 01:04:18,216 ...and her favorite bracelet and watch. 853 01:04:21,052 --> 01:04:23,013 Other than that, you know... 854 01:04:23,430 --> 01:04:26,058 ...she didn't really talk about it much. 855 01:04:27,768 --> 01:04:28,727 Wait up, guys! 856 01:04:36,278 --> 01:04:38,572 Kate didn't show me until a year after... 857 01:04:38,655 --> 01:04:41,408 ...she got back from camp the stuff she'd taken. 858 01:04:41,450 --> 01:04:43,369 Why did you decide to tell June? 859 01:04:45,913 --> 01:04:47,999 lf we didn't tell June... 860 01:04:48,082 --> 01:04:50,335 ...it'd be like we were hiding something. 861 01:04:50,418 --> 01:04:51,878 So, l don't know why. 862 01:04:54,757 --> 01:04:56,300 l don't know why but... 863 01:04:57,426 --> 01:04:58,386 ...why not? 864 01:05:04,601 --> 01:05:06,895 Jason told us about the film footage... 865 01:05:06,937 --> 01:05:09,482 ...that the girls had taken at Lake Mungo. 866 01:05:17,616 --> 01:05:20,619 The girls were looking so happy... 867 01:05:21,579 --> 01:05:24,165 ...but she looked quite forlorn. 868 01:05:24,248 --> 01:05:25,541 I was worried. 869 01:05:26,167 --> 01:05:29,129 l was convinced that something had happened to her. 870 01:05:37,555 --> 01:05:40,683 Kate's phone footage was taken later that night... 871 01:05:40,767 --> 01:05:42,894 ...once the girls had spread out. 872 01:05:42,978 --> 01:05:44,813 Anytime. Anywhere. 873 01:05:46,982 --> 01:05:50,653 It's like Africa. Like the desert. 874 01:05:51,779 --> 01:05:53,907 There was an image of Alice... 875 01:05:53,990 --> 01:05:57,035 ...very hard to decipher at the bottom of the frame... 876 01:05:57,118 --> 01:05:58,662 ...kneeling under a tree. 877 01:06:00,622 --> 01:06:03,459 It was only after viewing the clip several times... 878 01:06:03,542 --> 01:06:05,795 ...that we realized what she was doing. 879 01:06:05,878 --> 01:06:07,797 She was burying something. 880 01:06:11,468 --> 01:06:13,595 Did you know what would've happened... 881 01:06:13,679 --> 01:06:15,264 ...that night with Alice? 882 01:06:15,306 --> 01:06:16,307 No. 883 01:06:18,017 --> 01:06:19,769 l knew she'd lost her phone. 884 01:06:21,438 --> 01:06:23,106 l knew she was upset... 885 01:06:23,815 --> 01:06:25,943 ...because that was pretty obvious... 886 01:06:25,984 --> 01:06:28,279 ...but l didn't know why she was upset. 887 01:06:29,363 --> 01:06:31,741 She didn't say that she'd seen anything... 888 01:06:31,824 --> 01:06:34,077 ...she didn't really say anything to me. 889 01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:37,247 I didn't really take it that seriously at the time. 890 01:06:38,332 --> 01:06:39,958 lt was like context. 891 01:06:40,042 --> 01:06:42,294 We were just having a good time... 892 01:06:42,378 --> 01:06:44,797 ...and l just thought she got a bit upset. 893 01:06:56,394 --> 01:07:02,150 It started simply enough. Alice left the group... 894 01:07:02,192 --> 01:07:05,195 ...and started walking off by herself... 895 01:07:07,197 --> 01:07:10,284 ...but it was obviously, something was distressing her. 896 01:07:12,161 --> 01:07:14,539 We wanted to try and find out what it was. 897 01:07:32,184 --> 01:07:34,061 We understood from the footage... 898 01:07:34,144 --> 01:07:36,021 ...that she had buried something. 899 01:07:36,105 --> 01:07:38,232 We had no idea where that tree was... 900 01:07:38,316 --> 01:07:41,694 ...because of what we could see in the video. 901 01:07:43,989 --> 01:07:46,700 We didn't really wanna go down during the day... 902 01:07:46,784 --> 01:07:49,161 ...because we didn't want to be digging... 903 01:07:49,912 --> 01:07:52,248 ...where tourists were. 904 01:07:54,375 --> 01:07:56,253 We decided to go at night. 905 01:08:14,148 --> 01:08:17,818 June and I started digging and after a bit... 906 01:08:19,529 --> 01:08:21,614 ...June said she'd found something... 907 01:08:21,698 --> 01:08:23,533 ...and pulled out a plastic bag. 908 01:08:23,617 --> 01:08:26,286 Inside the plastic bag there was... 909 01:08:27,246 --> 01:08:30,291 ...Allie's favorite necklace, her ring, her watch... 910 01:08:30,374 --> 01:08:31,793 ...her mobile phone. 911 01:08:33,544 --> 01:08:35,839 Her most precious things... 912 01:08:36,882 --> 01:08:39,384 ...buried out here on a school camp. 913 01:08:40,177 --> 01:08:42,054 We didn't know why she did that. 914 01:08:42,930 --> 01:08:45,933 We knew from the video that she'd buried something... 915 01:08:46,476 --> 01:08:48,478 ...but we didn't know what it was. 916 01:08:50,480 --> 01:08:52,024 lt was low on battery. 917 01:09:11,838 --> 01:09:13,256 You scared of dying? 918 01:09:15,300 --> 01:09:17,385 Yeah, of course I'm scared of dying. 919 01:09:17,469 --> 01:09:19,555 Isn't everyone scared of dying? 920 01:09:25,603 --> 01:09:28,606 Would you like to tell me what happens in the dreams? 921 01:09:31,693 --> 01:09:35,364 I feel like something bad is gonna happen to me. 922 01:09:36,741 --> 01:09:39,035 I feel like something bad has happened. 923 01:09:40,203 --> 01:09:42,831 It hasn't reached me yet but it's on its way. 924 01:09:46,251 --> 01:09:48,087 And it's getting closer... 925 01:09:49,839 --> 01:09:51,716 ...and I don't feel ready. 926 01:09:51,757 --> 01:09:55,011 I feel like I can't do anything. 927 01:10:08,860 --> 01:10:13,365 At some point, this figure came towards her... 928 01:10:13,449 --> 01:10:15,367 ...from out of the darkness. 929 01:10:15,868 --> 01:10:18,329 I recognized the face as soon as I saw it... 930 01:10:18,412 --> 01:10:21,040 ...on the phone video. It was the same face... 931 01:10:21,124 --> 01:10:24,211 ...of the body I had identified at the dam. 932 01:10:25,587 --> 01:10:28,340 It was Allie's body. Allie's face. 933 01:10:36,308 --> 01:10:41,272 There's absolutely no rational explanation... 934 01:10:41,814 --> 01:10:46,194 ...for what she saw on that phone. 935 01:11:24,529 --> 01:11:26,030 Oh, my God! It's raining! 936 01:11:44,301 --> 01:11:49,265 I'm convinced Alice knew she was going to die. 937 01:11:50,141 --> 01:11:51,559 I'm convinced of that. 938 01:11:54,729 --> 01:11:57,232 I think the figure at Lake Mungo... 939 01:11:57,315 --> 01:11:59,026 ...was an omen for her. 940 01:11:59,443 --> 01:12:04,156 The burial of her possessions was symbolic... 941 01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:05,491 ...it was a ritual. 942 01:12:09,871 --> 01:12:12,875 I was never convinced that Allie knew she'd die. 943 01:12:13,625 --> 01:12:16,420 She had morbid thoughts, sure, but who doesn't? 944 01:12:17,463 --> 01:12:20,383 She had nightmares that upset her... 945 01:12:20,425 --> 01:12:22,010 ...enough to consult Ray. 946 01:12:26,181 --> 01:12:28,893 l don't know that anybody is really convinced... 947 01:12:28,934 --> 01:12:30,728 ...that they're going to die. 948 01:12:33,690 --> 01:12:35,692 What about the image of Lake Mungo? 949 01:12:35,775 --> 01:12:38,403 How do you think Alice would've explained that? 950 01:12:38,487 --> 01:12:40,614 How could she have explained it? 951 01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:48,957 l think Allie saw a ghost... 952 01:12:50,834 --> 01:12:53,587 ...but she wasn't to know it was her own. 953 01:12:54,713 --> 01:12:56,590 l believe she recorded a ghost. 954 01:12:56,632 --> 01:13:00,720 l believe she recorded the future coming to get her. 955 01:13:18,448 --> 01:13:20,534 We found out about the Tooheys... 956 01:13:21,327 --> 01:13:24,038 ...Ray and what had happened at Lake Mungo... 957 01:13:25,373 --> 01:13:28,418 ...and by the time we returned home... 958 01:13:30,086 --> 01:13:31,755 ...the house felt different. 959 01:13:31,838 --> 01:13:35,634 lt was calm. 960 01:13:44,853 --> 01:13:48,107 I think Alice... 961 01:13:48,148 --> 01:13:50,902 ...wanted us to know more about her. 962 01:13:50,985 --> 01:13:54,906 She wanted us to know who she really was... 963 01:13:56,491 --> 01:14:00,788 ...before she, you know, before she could leave. 964 01:14:08,338 --> 01:14:10,757 In the weeks and months after Lake Mungo... 965 01:14:10,799 --> 01:14:13,927 ...we started to feel like a family again. 966 01:14:15,805 --> 01:14:17,765 It just crept up on us, really... 967 01:14:17,807 --> 01:14:21,394 ...we were a bit wobbly... 968 01:14:21,478 --> 01:14:23,313 ...but a family all the same. 969 01:14:32,323 --> 01:14:34,576 -Hello there. -Russell, nice to see you. 970 01:14:34,659 --> 01:14:35,744 You too. Come in. 971 01:14:35,827 --> 01:14:37,496 Ray called out of the blue... 972 01:14:37,579 --> 01:14:39,957 ...and said he'd be coming through town... 973 01:14:39,998 --> 01:14:43,544 ...and asked if it was alright if he could visit. 974 01:14:44,795 --> 01:14:48,717 Six months had gone by and I just felt... 975 01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:52,763 ...under the circumstances, it couldn't do any harm. 976 01:14:57,894 --> 01:15:00,939 I think we all felt better after Mungo. 977 01:15:01,606 --> 01:15:05,277 In a way, it had been closure. 978 01:15:05,903 --> 01:15:08,405 For each of us it was different. 979 01:15:09,406 --> 01:15:11,784 We made our own peace. 980 01:15:18,417 --> 01:15:20,002 It seemed strange to me... 981 01:15:20,335 --> 01:15:22,880 ...that Allie should withdraw so abruptly... 982 01:15:23,506 --> 01:15:27,719 ...and we didn't help her, we didn't change anything... 983 01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:33,809 ...I think we collectively made a decision to move forward. 984 01:15:36,854 --> 01:15:41,735 Moving was a big part of it. Starting all over. 985 01:16:00,673 --> 01:16:02,967 It will be difficult to leave the house. 986 01:16:04,677 --> 01:16:07,597 Sometimes, you know, l just forget that... 987 01:16:08,932 --> 01:16:13,187 ...she's not coming back. 988 01:16:14,730 --> 01:16:15,940 l forget. 989 01:16:46,891 --> 01:16:49,436 Okay, close your eyes. 990 01:16:51,688 --> 01:16:54,525 Imagine that you're standing outside the house. 991 01:16:56,819 --> 01:16:57,820 Can you see it? 992 01:17:02,701 --> 01:17:04,369 Go inside the house. 993 01:17:07,331 --> 01:17:09,291 I'm going through the front door. 994 01:17:16,341 --> 01:17:19,094 I'm walking down the hall towards Alice's room. 995 01:17:25,435 --> 01:17:26,978 Someone's there. 996 01:17:27,937 --> 01:17:30,190 I think someone's coming down the hall. 997 01:17:30,232 --> 01:17:31,775 The door is open. 998 01:17:34,236 --> 01:17:35,780 Do you know who it is? 999 01:17:48,335 --> 01:17:49,712 Do you wanna go inside? 1000 01:17:51,297 --> 01:17:52,256 Yeah. 1001 01:17:54,551 --> 01:17:55,552 Okay. 1002 01:18:06,648 --> 01:18:07,690 What do you see? 1003 01:18:08,775 --> 01:18:10,068 It's my mum. 1004 01:18:12,070 --> 01:18:13,572 What's she saying? 1005 01:18:14,406 --> 01:18:17,368 She's not saying anything. 1006 01:18:24,042 --> 01:18:26,211 l don't think she knows l'm there. 1007 01:18:30,424 --> 01:18:32,176 Alice isn't here. 1008 01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:34,971 She's not here. 1009 01:18:37,015 --> 01:18:38,517 What's happening, Alice? 1010 01:18:40,144 --> 01:18:42,521 You talking to her? ls she talking to you? 1011 01:18:42,563 --> 01:18:44,023 No, she's going now. 1012 01:18:46,317 --> 01:18:47,777 She's leaving the room. 1013 01:18:51,156 --> 01:18:52,407 She's gone. 1014 01:18:53,283 --> 01:18:54,576 Open your eyes. 1015 01:19:49,138 --> 01:19:50,890 She's going now. 1016 01:19:53,184 --> 01:19:54,644 She's leaving the room. 1017 01:20:25,053 --> 01:20:26,138 She's gone. 1018 01:21:08,644 --> 01:21:12,106 Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. 1019 01:21:12,899 --> 01:21:16,820 Happy birthday, dear Mathew!